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Posted: 7/7/2014 12:07:10 AM EDT
[#1]
With the Shockwave grip you are good to go. I'm not a fan of PGO shotguns but that is the one I would get, it's just begging for a Form 1.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/7/2014 1:59:27 AM EDT
[#2]
CA legal?
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Posted: 7/7/2014 8:07:16 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
CA legal? This was one guys response on this in CA: February 19, 2014 at 2:11 pm I’m in CA also, and have been dying to build one of these. I’ve been asking around about legality, and finally took it upon myself to read through the CA Penal Code. Unfortunately, it looks like CA has done it again, defining “short-barreled shotgun” as any FIREARM designed to fire shotgun shells, with < 18" barrel or barrels. BUMMER!!! Here's the definition copied right from the penal code: 17180. As used in Sections 16530 and 16640, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4 of Division 6 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following: (a) A firearm that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. (b) A firearm that has an overall length of less than 26 inches and that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell. (c) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. (d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive. (e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c),inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person. So it looks like CA has focused on the ammunition, not the stock, to define the short-barreled shotgun. That's probably why the Taurus Judge and other stuff like it are also illegal here. Sorry for the bad news, I am totally bummed to find this out. Yet another reason to move out of California!! |
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Posted: 7/7/2014 8:10:00 AM EDT
[#4]
Here's the link to Shockwave Technologies with ATF letters, etc...
http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88 |
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Posted: 7/7/2014 4:40:17 PM EDT
[#5]
Leon at auger precision can convert your mossberg pgo for around $300 or so. You can then sell off your original front end and pgo grip to recoup most if not all of the conversion cost. He is a great guy and his turnaround time is very short.
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Posted: 7/13/2014 1:58:49 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Leon at auger precision can convert your mossberg pgo for around $300 or so. You can then sell off your original front end and pgo grip to recoup most if not all of the conversion cost. He is a great guy and his turnaround time is very short. Thanks for the kind words. And Robc That's my website you found I believe. I have not done one for anyone in WV but I will see what i can find for you as far as legality in your state. ETA: after looking more carefully...... that's not my site (but I do know those guys and they are good guys) It just is worded very similar to mine. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 8:39:15 PM EDT
[#7]
Your fine as long as the 500 was originally a PGO.
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Posted: 7/13/2014 11:32:25 PM EDT
[#8]
I guess what makes me nervous, or I don't get is why wouldn't Mossberg produce and mass sell? Anyway still very interested.
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Posted: 7/14/2014 5:17:46 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...... why wouldn't Mossberg produce and mass sell? . Because the market for such a firearm is extremely limited. (and Mossberg is well known for bringing absolutely useless video game inspired shotguns to market) |
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Posted: 7/14/2014 5:53:49 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because the market for such a firearm is extremely limited. (and Mossberg is well known for bringing absolutely useless video game inspired shotguns to market) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
...... why wouldn't Mossberg produce and mass sell? . Because the market for such a firearm is extremely limited. (and Mossberg is well known for bringing absolutely useless video game inspired shotguns to market) Actually Mossberg sorta does make it already, well sort of. They make an 590A1 AOW that is the same except the grip. So for mossberg to make it they would just need a longer grip to meet the 26" length. But as was stated, it is a niche market and not worth their effort. Heck, profit wise, Mossberg is probably better off doing like they are now. They get profit on the sale of the 500 Cruiser then they make profit on the sale of the parts you need to do the conversion. And to add to that, for Mossberg to add another part#, they would have to do market research and separate packaging etc. And if they went and spent money doing that and the ATF decided all of a sudden these were now a no go, Mossberg would stand to lose money. Also, for the OP, I did a little digging. The only reference in WV I could find was in This in their carry law codes. Basically the only WV definition of a shotgun is as follows "Shotgun" means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. I also reached out to a WV dealer and verified with them that WV does NOT have any definition for a shotgun, they (WV) just uses the federal definition. So your GTG. |
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Posted: 7/16/2014 1:30:28 PM EDT
[#11]
I bought a factory Moss 590A1 from the dealer....it says ON THE BOX "AOW"
It does NOT come with any grip from the factory and I had to go through 1.5 years of paperwork to finally get my Form 1 stamp. So, if all this blah blah blah is true....why would they sell a shotgun without a grip as AOW only??? Still not sure about ANY of this nonsense. |
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Posted: 7/16/2014 1:34:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Its called a super shoty
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Posted: 7/16/2014 1:37:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I bought a factory Moss 590A1 from the dealer....it says ON THE BOX "AOW" It does NOT come with any grip from the factory and I had to go through 1.5 years of paperwork to finally get my Form 1 stamp. So, if all this blah blah blah is true....why would they sell a shotgun without a grip as AOW only??? Still not sure about ANY of this nonsense. I'm not calling you a liar, but there has to be more to this story. You or the dealer in question may not be aware of the rest of the story. Perhaps it left the factory with the grip on accident? I just bought a brand new made in USA Gibson les paul. Came with the checklist signed by all the people that supposedly checked everything. It had a few loose screws on the back of the tuners AND it had a BAD PICK UP right out of the box 
Point is, I'm never surprised anymore. Also If it says AOW on the box then that dealer should not have received it from the distro with a form3 and thusly it should have been form 4ed to you NOT a from 1. It was registered on a from 2 at mossberg when they built it as an AOW and it should have come with the regular Mossberg pistol grip. ETA: I have only seen a few 590 AOWs and they all came with the grip. Could it come without it? maybe but it would still be an AOW. |
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Posted: 7/16/2014 3:21:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Nope, it's a factory item without grip....otherwise it would be a SBS ;-)
Here it is: http://www.capitolarmory.com/mossberg-590a1-12g-aow.html and here: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=429629518 |
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Posted: 7/16/2014 6:21:49 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope, it's a factory item without grip....otherwise it would be a SBS ;-) Here it is: http://www.capitolarmory.com/mossberg-590a1-12g-aow.html and here: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=429629518 I called Mossberg and verified. Mossberg said EVERY gun leaves the factory with either a grip or a stock. They claim it is NOT available with nothing. And as i stated w/ nothing it is still an AOW and would be done on a form 4 to you. |
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Posted: 7/16/2014 7:55:47 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I called Mossberg and verified. Mossberg said EVERY gun leaves the factory with either a grip or a stock. They claim it is NOT available with nothing. And as i stated w/ nothing it is still an AOW and would be done on a form 4 to you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nope, it's a factory item without grip....otherwise it would be a SBS ;-) Here it is: http://www.capitolarmory.com/mossberg-590a1-12g-aow.html and here: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=429629518 I called Mossberg and verified. Mossberg said EVERY gun leaves the factory with either a grip or a stock. They claim it is NOT available with nothing. And as i stated w/ nothing it is still an AOW and would be done on a form 4 to you. I don't remember which form was used to do the dealer transfer but the dealer "made" the AOW hence the $5 tax stamp. Clearly based on the links and my experience, it IS available. And I know for a fact the box says AOW on it as part of the model number (this WAS 3 years ago). Here's another one: http://www.hkspecialiststore.com/product_detail.php?Category=12&Page_Number=2&Index_Seq=904 |
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Posted: 7/16/2014 9:01:26 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't remember which form was used to do the dealer transfer but the dealer "made" the AOW hence the $5 tax stamp. Clearly based on the links and my experience, it IS available. And I know for a fact the box says AOW on it as part of the model number (this WAS 3 years ago). Here's another one: http://www.hkspecialiststore.com/product_detail.php?Category=12&Page_Number=2&Index_Seq=904 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nope, it's a factory item without grip....otherwise it would be a SBS ;-) Here it is: http://www.capitolarmory.com/mossberg-590a1-12g-aow.html and here: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=429629518 I called Mossberg and verified. Mossberg said EVERY gun leaves the factory with either a grip or a stock. They claim it is NOT available with nothing. And as i stated w/ nothing it is still an AOW and would be done on a form 4 to you. I don't remember which form was used to do the dealer transfer but the dealer "made" the AOW hence the $5 tax stamp. Clearly based on the links and my experience, it IS available. And I know for a fact the box says AOW on it as part of the model number (this WAS 3 years ago). Here's another one: http://www.hkspecialiststore.com/product_detail.php?Category=12&Page_Number=2&Index_Seq=904 It's weird that these are out there with no grip. Mossberg is saying this is NOT an option. And i was confused by your initial post because you said "form1". A form 1 would be you making the AOW and it would be $200 If your stamp was $5 then it already was an AOW and your dealer didn't make it, it left Mossberg as an AOW. That's why it sounded fishy to me. Your initial post was written as though you purchase an AOW with no NFA paperwork and then paid $200 to register it yourself. I'm going to have to do a little more diggin an see why these are popping up with no grip. |
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Posted: 7/17/2014 1:25:31 AM EDT
[#18]
Correct, i wasnt able to pick it up till the AOW stamp came back....which is why I find this whole deal confusing. Because if mossberg is selling these as AOWs then theres no difference between these and these "non nfa" 14" "firearms".
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Posted: 7/17/2014 10:55:03 AM EDT
[#19]
Well a dealer who sells a lot of them (the factory AOWs ) has told me they all come shipped with no grip. I'm guessing the sales dept at Mossberg didn't have the answer and just took a guess.
The couple I have seen where at other dealers so im guessing they added the grips. But you are correct. The factory AOW is the exact same thing as the non-nfa version. The only difference is the grip. |
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Posted: 7/17/2014 12:41:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well a dealer who sells a lot of them (the factory AOWs ) has told me they all come shipped with no grip. I'm guessing the sales dept at Mossberg didn't have the answer and just took a guess. The couple I have seen where at other dealers so im guessing they added the grips. But you are correct. The factory AOW is the exact same thing as the non-nfa version. The only difference is the grip. I'd say that you're right and that whoever he talked to at Mossberg didn't really know. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard of erroneous info coming from their CS dept. The gun itself is for, all intents and purposes, the same. Difference being, the AOW factory version is less than 26" as it comes out of the box. It's much safer for Mossberg to sell it as an AOW than take the chance that someone wouldn't put the correct grip on it to bring the overall length up over 26". The custom built non-NFA versions just fall into a loophole because they are over the minimum overall length with the correct grip. Kinda makes me wonder though... if you build a non-NFA version, and remove the PG for some reason, is it then an unregistered AOW while the grip is off and it's shorter than 26"? So, if you had one of these factory AOW versions, and installed the buffer tube/Sig brace thing, I'm assuming you would have a quasi-SBS registered as an AOW? |
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Posted: 7/17/2014 1:09:49 PM EDT
[#21]
This thread could use some pics.
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Posted: 7/29/2014 7:38:57 AM EDT
[#22]
So..... Back to the original post. Can I buy this 14'inch shotgun and be legal!
  
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Posted: 7/29/2014 7:41:45 AM EDT
[#23]
And I'd prefer a remington 870......
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Posted: 7/29/2014 7:44:47 AM EDT
[#24]
How about this???
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=431881156 |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 7:51:06 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So..... Back to the original post. Can I buy this 14'inch shotgun and be legal! Yes, but it's not a shotgun. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 7:52:42 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How about this??? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=431881156 That is an AOW, states first thing in the description that it's NFA. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 2:26:31 PM EDT
[#27]
So this company only sells the grip. How do I get the whole thing.
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Posted: 7/29/2014 2:41:10 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So this company only sells the grip. How do I get the whole thing. Buy an 18" pistol grip only from Mossberg or Remington. Replace the pistol grip and barrel. Or buy it from one of the few companies already selling them in that configuration. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 3:04:14 PM EDT
[#29]
So add that grip and a 14 or 12 inch barrel and it's legally a pistol?
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Posted: 7/29/2014 3:39:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So add that grip and a 14 or 12 inch barrel and it's legally a pistol? No. If it never had a stock then it was never a shotgun. Shotguns are designed to be fired from the shoulder. It's an other. Go under 26" and it becomes an AOW. Stay over 26" and it's just a plain old other. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 4:27:57 PM EDT
[#31]
Anyone know how a pgo would be transferred. As in if I buy a JIC mossy from the local gun shop how does it get marked on the form. On an ar lower its pistol or long rifle. Or does that even mater in this situation, and it is just sold as a firearm.
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Posted: 7/29/2014 4:43:07 PM EDT
[#32]
It's marked "other", same as an AR lower.
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Posted: 7/29/2014 5:00:18 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So add that grip and a 14 or 12 inch barrel and it's legally a pistol? Quote HistoryQuoted:
So add that grip and a 14 or 12 inch barrel and it's legally a pistol? <-----FFL No, it remains a "firearm"...........pistols must have a rifled barrel. Quoted:
Anyone know how a pgo would be transferred. As in if I buy a JIC mossy from the local gun shop how does it get marked on the form..... It is marked as "Other Firearm", because it is not a handgun, rifle or shotgun (read the instructions to Question 18 on the 4473) On an ar lower its pistol or long rifle. No, it isn't. Again, read the instructions to Question 18. A firearm frame or receiver (even if can only be made into a handgun or long gun) is recorded as an "Other Firearm" on the 4473. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 5:47:45 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's marked "other", same as an AR lower. Other  .. shit I always say pistol
Aight thanks guys been a while since I bought a "new" firearm... didn't want to fuck this one up and be carrying around sbs instead true pgo |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 8:24:35 PM EDT
[#35]
I started with a mossy 590 PGO. A smith installed the 14" barrel and shorter mag tube. I sold off the original front end and factory pg stock to recoup most of the conversion costs. The AOL is 26.5" and is classified as an "other".
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Posted: 7/29/2014 8:40:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Wow. Amazing.
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Posted: 7/29/2014 8:48:08 PM EDT
[#37]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpLNy3DTcBk&sns=em
Explained.... I'm in |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 9:11:54 AM EDT
[#38]
I love that these are becoming available. Maybe it will shine the light on how stupid our gun laws are but I won't hold my breath.
Too many ignorant LE types for my liking on this gun. The sig brace already confuses em enough. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 9:28:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Picked this up today
 IMG_20140731_191100_603 by jamiehstanley, on Flickr
Shockwave grip will be here tomorrow and then it will get a hair cut this weekend  DSC_2106 by jamiehstanley, on Flickr
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Posted: 8/2/2014 1:39:15 PM EDT
[#40]
Trim and paint comes later
 DSC_2114 by jamiehstanley, on Flickr
While I had the tools out figured I would make a heat shield fit with magpul forearm  DSC_2108 by jamiehstanley, on Flickr
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Posted: 8/2/2014 2:43:19 PM EDT
[#41]
Pics!!!!!
If you have one show it off!!!! |
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Posted: 8/2/2014 3:08:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pics!!!!! If you have one show it off!!!! Theres no "sending it off to have it converted" nonsense with a Remington, unlike the Mossbergs. Just chop the barrel and you're good to go on a $400 NIB PGO 870. I made a +1 extension from a $5 gunshop junk box +2 and bought a used $80 vent rib and chopped it and added a vent rib fiber optic front sight (not pictured). Eventually I want to get it threaded for chokes. I need a different buffer tube then pictured for the SigBrace, it slides under recoil and interfers with the firing hand after 10+ rounds of buckshot. 
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Posted: 8/2/2014 4:11:36 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Theres no "sending it off to have it converted" nonsense with a Remington, unlike the Mossbergs. Just chop the barrel and you're good to go on a $400 NIB PGO 870.
I made a +1 extension from a $5 gunshop junk box +2 and bought a used $80 vent rib and chopped it and added a vent rib fiber optic front sight (not pictured). Eventually I want to get it threaded for chokes. I need a different buffer tube then pictured for the SigBrace, it slides under recoil and interfers with the firing hand after 10+ rounds of buckshot. <a href="https://imageshack.com/i/nea3t9j" target="_blank">http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/842/a3t9.jpg</a> Nice firearm. Have you tried hairspray? |
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Posted: 8/2/2014 4:40:55 PM EDT
[#44]
I know that Black Aces has requested a Tech Branch opinion on the Sig brace on one of their very short pump shotguns. I would love to build a short, mag fed Mossy with a Sig brace.
Until then I am holding off. It's a tough sell to argue that a pump shotgun is designed to be shot one handed which is one reason the brace is OK on an AR pistol. |
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Posted: 8/2/2014 5:26:18 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know that Black Aces has requested a Tech Branch opinion on the Sig brace on one of their very short pump shotguns. I would love to build a short, mag fed Mossy with a Sig brace. Until then I am holding off. It's a tough sell to argue that a pump shotgun is designed to be shot one handed which is one reason the brace is OK on an AR pistol. The SIG brace has appeared on 26" + AR "firearms" w/ VFG as well. |
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Posted: 8/2/2014 5:44:30 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice firearm. Have you tried hairspray? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Theres no "sending it off to have it converted" nonsense with a Remington, unlike the Mossbergs. Just chop the barrel and you're good to go on a $400 NIB PGO 870.
I made a +1 extension from a $5 gunshop junk box +2 and bought a used $80 vent rib and chopped it and added a vent rib fiber optic front sight (not pictured). Eventually I want to get it threaded for chokes. I need a different buffer tube then pictured for the SigBrace, it slides under recoil and interfers with the firing hand after 10+ rounds of buckshot. <a href="https://imageshack.com/i/nea3t9j" target="_blank">http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/842/a3t9.jpg</a> Nice firearm. Have you tried hairspray? No I havent. The ICE Arms pistols buffers work fine on 5.56 ARs, but I'm going to modify a standard carbine buffer to use as a "stop" to keep the brace from moving forward on my "12ga firearm". My 12" .308AR pistol has such a setup, but I havent gotten a chance to shoot it. Slightly longer length of brace also ,so that its sits more towards the crook of the elbow then mid forearm. I sent a letter to ATF Tech prior to buying the 870 PGO but havent heard back. Worst case scenario , I remove the Mesa adapter and reinstall the birds head grip and continue enjoying my 14" vent rib PGO 870 without the aid of the Sig brace. |
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Posted: 8/2/2014 6:23:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The SIG brace has appeared on 26" + AR "firearms" w/ VFG as well. Yes, but they started out as AR pistols with a brace and the VFG was then added to a pistol to become a "firearm". Hey, make sense or not, the AR pistol is a "pistol" and putting a brace or VFG does not change it's classification as a pistol. We have seen the ATF opinion on that scenario. I want to see an opinion on a pump shotgun using a brace that was approved for use on AR pistols. The more opinions that are requested, the more convoluted this gets. |
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Posted: 8/2/2014 6:31:52 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, but they started out as AR pistols with a brace and the VFG was then added to a pistol to become a "firearm". Hey, make sense or not, the AR pistol is a "pistol" and putting a brace or VFG does not change it's classification as a pistol. We have seen the ATF opinion on that scenario. I want to see an opinion on a pump shotgun using a brace that was approved for use on AR pistols. The more opinions that are requested, the more convoluted this gets. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The SIG brace has appeared on 26" + AR "firearms" w/ VFG as well. Yes, but they started out as AR pistols with a brace and the VFG was then added to a pistol to become a "firearm". Hey, make sense or not, the AR pistol is a "pistol" and putting a brace or VFG does not change it's classification as a pistol. We have seen the ATF opinion on that scenario. I want to see an opinion on a pump shotgun using a brace that was approved for use on AR pistols. The more opinions that are requested, the more convoluted this gets. Don't forget factory sales of the SIG brace are also on their SIG 5.56x45mm AKish pistol that runs w/o a buffer tube, and on factory AK pistols from Century, is it? Putting a VFG on an AR pistol @ 26"+ OAL does change it's classification to "firearm." When the VFG is removed, it becomes a pistol again.  No one said laws written by Democrats had to make sense.
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Posted: 8/2/2014 6:56:23 PM EDT
[#49]
Every example you cited began as a pistol and the NFA says that means designed to be shot one handed. The non-NFA shotgun was never a pistol and is hard to argue the one handed issue.
I have several forms of documentation (BATFE opinion letters) with which to argue my case to LE that my AR pistol with brace, and even the non-NFA 14" shotty, is legal. For a shotgun with a barrel < 18" and brace, not so much. I don't see them as the same, but I hope Black Aces gets an approved letter. |
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Posted: 8/2/2014 7:44:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Finished up the pgo came it 27 inches just perfect
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