I just received the 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124+P (53617) ammo I'd ordered for my Kahr PM9 and my wife's Kahr K9.  The K9 has a long history of eating any factory load, while my PM9 is still pretty new and relatively untested.  I wanted to put a couple of boxes through each pistol to make sure it fed & cycled well.

The Gold Dots were intended to replace Winchester Silvertips in the PM9 and Federal 9BP in the K9.  I thought the K9 would eat anything, while I was uncertain about the PM9 because of the abbreviated slide.

Test results

PM9  I began by shooting up all the Silvertips, then loaded & fired 100 rounds of the Gold Dots.  The PM9 ate everything without a hiccup, whether limp-wristed or not, though the Gold Dots certainly cause the gun to jump more than the Silvertips.  It's my new carry load.

K9  I fired off the Federal 9BP without any hiccups or jams.  Two magazines of the Gold Dots were fired two-handed without incident.  I then limp-wristed the gun and the gun consistently jammed on the second round in each magazine.  Each time the round misfed at 6 o'clock, happening on all four of its magazines.  I began experimenting to determine the cause, and found that it would happen if any stance less than a rigid two-hand stance (IOW, firing one-hand, either left or right, caused a jam on the 2nd round in the mag).

I had assumed that the K9 would function flawlessly, and was somewhat concerned whether the PM9 would choke.  The opposite turned out to be the case.

Have you tested your defensive ammo with a minimum of 100 rounds, limp wristed and from poor shooting positions?  You might not have the time, space, or luxury to adopt your favorite two-hand stance.  Will your gun function perfectly with the load you've chosen?

Shameless bump because this topic is too important to die so quickly.

EVERYONE should test their defensive weapon in a variety of attitudes, as you have done, to ensure it functions EVERY time.

I've yet to see a Glock 19 that could perform to that standard. Limp-wristing the grip is almost the No. 1 cause of failure to feeds on all the service pistols in use here. Shooters would be best served to train themselves to NOT limp-wrist their grip, but establish as solid a grip and stance as possible. That should eliminate most feeding issues.

I notice you did not report any testing of your other load, Win Silvertips. Does this ammo function under the conditions where you achieved failure to feed with the Gold Dots?

Quoted: I shoot every single round of my carry ammo, it's the only way to be sure.

Must...fight...Satan...no....empty....gun....joke......

Quoted: I shoot every single round of my carry ammo, it's the only way to be sure.

then how do you have any left to carry?

txl

Not that you shouldn't test a couple hundred rounds of any new carry ammo, but I don't think limp-wristing has ever been a problem in a shoot-out. You'll have so much adrenalin going that black grip juice will be oozing between your fingers.

An addition - test your carry mags - set these mags aside - don't use them at the range:where we drop them, kick them, fill them full of dirt and end up tearing into them and cleaning them inbetween stages.

Good luck

The limp wristed induced jam was a huge issue when trying to determine what would be the best carry peice for my fiance.  After much consideration, decided to go back to the good'ole snub...I agree that testing is muy importante.

SOmething to consider about testing the weapon while limp wristing is that you could be weakened by an assault and may not be able to have a rigid two handed or even a one handed hold on the weapon.

So, I think it's a good idea to do this to ensure it works if it came to that.

Mark

Quoted: SOmething to consider about testing the weapon while limp wristing is that you could be weakened by an assault and may not be able to have a rigid two handed or even a one handed hold on the weapon. So, I think it's a good idea to do this to ensure it works if it came to that. Mark

If your in that bad of shape - your probably screwed.

What is important - lots and lots of strong hand only / weak hand only drills (including racking the slide / malfunc drills with one hand against your body or a solid object). While your speed may differ wildly between freestyle / strong hand only / weak hand only - your accuracy level should have no change whatsoever.

Good luck

Yes Glenn, I have.

If I can afford it I want to run the same ammo(speer 124gr gold dots the non +p stuff though) in my gun durring class that I will be carrying, but it all depends on the price.

Just buy a Glock, and you won't have to test anything.

Damn good point.

Another good one:  Rotate the rounds out of your carry magazine every few weeks.  

I had my house gun set up and took it to the range one day.  I pulled the rounds out of the mag and noticed that they had become discolored over the past 60 days.

Who knows if they would have worked in a bad situation.

Quoted: ... Have you tested your defensive ammo with a minimum of 100 rounds, limp wristed and from poor shooting positions?  You might not have the time, space, or luxury to adopt your favorite two-hand stance.  Will your gun function perfectly with the load you've chosen?

Usually many, MANY more than that before I'll stake my life on it.  

And I only shoot my chosen carry-ammo out of my carry-guns, no cheap "practice" ammo.  Yes, it's much more expensive that way and yes, I realize everyone can't afford or doesn't choose to do so - it's just my personal preference. YMMV.

I have never had a malfunction in any of my pistols because of "limp wristing".  I don't claim to have the perfect grip or stance, but I think too many people blame malfunctions on this.  I think that in reality a high percentage are due to improper or inadequate cleaning/lubrication.   I have also had 2 inexperienced young ladies that have never had any malfuntions with the following:

Glock 23
Beretta 96
Taraus 99
Springfield 1911
Colt 1911
Colt Governemnt .380
Beretta mod 84 .380

My $.02

Quoted: Damn good point. Another good one:  Rotate the rounds out of your carry magazine every few weeks.   I had my house gun set up and took it to the range one day.  I pulled the rounds out of the mag and noticed that they had become discolored over the past 60 days. Who knows if they would have worked in a bad situation.

It's normal. The rounds will tarnish due to handling them while loading your mags. The oil from your hands accelerates the process and it doesn't effect reliability or accuracy. I DO however think you should burn off carry ammo every now and again and get new stuff. I usually do it about every six months or sooner. I also mix the order the rounds are placed in the mag time and again so the same round doesn't get chambered over and over again.

If your in that bad of shape - your probably screwed.

And you may not even know it-but if you can deliver the shot needed, maybe is wasn't a wasted effort.

Two years ago, a Policeman was dying and didn't know it-a felon's bullet pieced his heart(armpit shot)His last shot delivered a fatal blow to the felon, he was so weakened when he fired that last shot that the weapon short cycled and didn't feed another. He was able to stay in the fight, he wasn't giving up. He didn't accept defeat, neither should anyone else if faced with something like that.

You're not  necessarily screwed if you are weakened, maybe you were just thumped on the head and recover in short enough order. Or even stunned by a shot that wasn't fatal. Remember weaponfixation-alot of shots will be on the gun hand/arm, another example of a weakened state that may induce a malfunction and may be avoided with ammo that may function in a weapon with a weaker hold.

Basic bottom line-it isn't a bad idea to use ammo that will alleviate some problems if(when) they occur.

Mark

Well, time to release my opinionated side  

I agree that you should always try to get into the strongest stance possible.  Absolutely.

But my impression is that some of you aren't suitably considering the possibility of limp-wristing your auto, because you're a real shooter, and real shooters don't limp-wrist, and only the unknowledgeable nitwits out there who don't know how to shoot could ever have that problem.  If so, you are delusional.  (Well, maybe you haven't thought through all the Murphy's Law situations.)  You're betting your life on being able to anticipate, predict, and control your gunfight and your opponent.  You're predicting that you will have the time and distance to take your preferred stance, or even take any stance at all.  You're betting the gunfight won't be in the middle of a grappling match, or that you won't be firing reaction-hand only in an awkward, rushed situation not permitting you the luxury of your square range skills.  If you're that good, why not avoid the gunfight to begin with?  And please share the lotto numbers with me, too  

Those who say, "Get a Glock"--yup, good guns.  My G22 is my choice of duty gun, my G27 is my back-up, and my PM9 is my gun for when I'm not carrying a gun.  But Glocks can jam too.  Test it before assuming anything.

The absolute most important thing for any defensive handgun is that it is reliable under all shooting conditions.  Even limp-wristed.  2-hand, 1-hand, limp-wristed, dirty, clean, wet, dry, none of that should matter.  It must function properly--all else is secondary.

K9 Testing Update and Photos:

I went back out to the range today for further evaluation.  Here's the gun in question:


I started off by double-checking the gun's condition.  Still lubed from yesterday.  I field-stripped it, inspected everything, and applied more lube.  Here's the ammo that I tested.


I wanted to start by making sure the gun functioned with ammo it's always functioned with in the past.  If it was choking on stuff it used to run on, then obviously this was a gun, not ammo, problem.

Here's the worst-case grip I used to test for reliability.  If anything will make a gun choke, it's this shooting grip.

Reaction-side, 1-hand grip

no grasp on grip.  Thumb and trigger-finger only

wrist unlocked

elbow unlocked

Here's the gun in full limp-wristed recoil:


PMC 115gr FMJ
50 rounds with no malfunctions, 29 rounds worst-case grip, 21 1-handed.

Fiocchi 115gr FMJ
50 rounds with no malfunctions, 29 rounds worst-case grip, 21 1-handed.

Winchester 115gr Silvertips
38 rounds with no malfunctions, all shot worst-case grip.

Federal 115gr 9BP JHP
27 rounds with no malfunctions, all shot worst-case grip.  This was the former carry load.

Speer GDHP 124gr +P
10 rounds with consistent malfunction on 3rd-round fired.  Testing involved round in chamber and full 7-rd magazine.  The 2nd magazine round--3rd round fired--consistently nose-dived into the feedramp the three times I repeated this test.  I stopped the test because 3/3 failures means this load is entirely unacceptable in this gun.  I fired the remaining rounds 2-handed into the berm w/o malfunctions, which means nothing to me.

Here's the pic of the malfunction:


Since I ran out of JHP 9mm ammo for the K9, I'll have to load Fiocchi ball until I can order more.  Reliability and shot placement are key, right?  Friggin' small towns.

PM9 repeat testing:

I re-tested the PM9 very briefly with 7 rounds of the Speer GDHP.  Here's the grip (same description as K9):


Here's the PM9 in full limp-wristed recoil:


No malfunctions with the PM9 using the GDHP.  My new carry load for that gun.

originally from
Face_N_The_Crowd

If your in that bad of shape - your probably screwed.

Wrong attitude to take into a fight.



Originally from mark5pt56

He didn't accept defeat, neither should anyone else if faced with something like that.

Words to live by..... your only screwed when your dead, not before......

Harv - understand your point - to clarify mine - if you didn't do enough preparation prior to the incident your odds of surviving are greatly reduced.

Gentlemen, "stance" got nothing to do with limp wristing.

Practice, practice, practice.

Glenn you have raised a good bit of food for thought for anyone that has not considered this topic before.

Good luck

Quoted: Yes Glenn, I have.

Of course you have, I would expect nothing less  

If I can afford it I want to run the same ammo(speer 124gr gold dots the non +p stuff though) in my gun durring class that I will be carrying, but it all depends on the price.

Believe it or not, I don't actually think it's necessary to practice with your actual carry load, as long as you thoroughly and occasionally test the carry load, and your practice load is the same bullet weight, velocity, and impact point.  But shooting your carry load all the time is certainly a confidence builder, if the cost doesn't cut into your practice.

I'm probably going to burn up the last case of our former duty round--Federal Hydra-Shoks that have been on a shelf for 3 years now.

Quoted: Damn good point. Another good one:  Rotate the rounds out of your carry magazine every few weeks.   I had my house gun set up and took it to the range one day.  I pulled the rounds out of the mag and noticed that they had become discolored over the past 60 days. Who knows if they would have worked in a bad situation.

The discoloration of rounds, under these conditions,  should not affect their performance.

Repeated cycling the carry mag will eventually weaken it's spring.

No flame intended, just my 0.02.

I don't know muchabout the Kahr's-in the pic of the malfunction, what is that part to the left of the barrel as you are looking at the pic? It appears and I'm guessing that it's the trigger bar and it looks like the bullet is catching on it prior to feeding?

Mark

I have a theory, play along with me...

Standard pressure loads run 100% without exception, and the only one that you could get to fail is +P.  The fact that it always happens on the same round out of the mag, and that the failure is a nose-dive, implies magazine spring issues.  I'd imagine that you'd find similar issues with other +P loads.

What may be happening is that the system is able to keep up with standard pressure rounds, but +P is cycling the slide fast enough that it's outrunning the magazine.

See if you can get your hands on Wolf extra-power mag springs, and you may be surprised to see the problem vanish.

Quoted: See if you can get your hands on Wolf extra-power mag springs, and you may be surprised to see the problem vanish.

Your theory might be correct, but it assumes all four of the magazines have suffered a large degree of spring set.  I assume that's unlikely, but it's worth investigating.  The only problem is that Wolff doesn't make any Kahr magazine springs--just striker & recoil springs.

I'm going to try some other brands of +P ammo and see how they perform.

Quoted: Your theory might be correct, but it assumes all four of the magazines have suffered a large degree of spring set.  I assume that's unlikely, but it's worth investigating.  The only problem is that Wolff doesn't make any Kahr magazine springs--just striker & recoil springs. I'm going to try some other brands of +P ammo and see how they perform.

Wolff has "generic" single-stack 9mm mag springs that may help.  It may not be that they've all taken a set, but possibly that they weren't spec'd strong enough from the start.  I'd also have a hard time believing that Kahr would screw up something like that, though.

Definitely keep us updated as to what the other +P loads do.  Hell, it may be worth it to exaggerate the problem a little bit by using a limited amount of a +P+ load like 9BPLE.

Kahrs might limp wrist FTLoadAllTheWay easier than other guns do to position of recoil spring.  JUST A SUGGESTION AND THEORY - not a factual statement.  All I know is that they own some patents on teh recoil spring that is not directly below barrel (what are they at the thirty degree position IIRC???), so maybe a Wolff spring will halp you out alittle.  But if you limp wrist a gun, sh*t happens...  I read an article bout that they said if your wrist is not in good shape and can't transition you should put your elbow back and hold gun by side fo belly for better grip, I think that it relies on muscles closer to shoulder than wrist and will releive wrist pressure on your (assumed) injured wrist.

Quoted: Quoted: Damn good point. Another good one:  Rotate the rounds out of your carry magazine every few weeks.   I had my house gun set up and took it to the range one day.  I pulled the rounds out of the mag and noticed that they had become discolored over the past 60 days. Who knows if they would have worked in a bad situation. The discoloration of rounds, under these conditions,  should not affect their performance. Repeated cycling the carry mag will eventually weaken it's spring. No flame intended, just my 0.02.

None taken.  I generally try to shoot my go to war mags to make sure they work.  Cycling of the spring may weaken the springs, but if I am shooting them on a regualr basis, that should appear at the range.

i had an issue with some corbon a few years ago and got to talk to terry somethin who was/is a gunwriter in one of the big mags.

said that one agency had big reliability problems.  seems they had to clear their weapons everytime they entered the jail.


problem got solved by shitcanning a round after it had been chambered 2x.  i try to ensure my 2nd round has NEVER been chambered.

ymmv

Quoted: It may not be that they've all taken a set, but possibly that they weren't spec'd strong enough from the start.  I'd also have a hard time believing that Kahr would screw up something like that, though.

You bring up a very interesting point.

I wouldn't have a hard time believing that any manufacturer would screw up a spec on any product.

For example; When Glock was having the issue with the G22 and the Surefire light - the solution they finally worked out was a change in the magazine spring to make the gun feed faster.

This is a really great thread - it's great to see someone actually testing their chosen SD ammo rather than just going off of some random dude's internet reccomendations of how a bullet performs in jello.

My 12 Ga turkey loads git er done.

Just want to add that it is also important to check each of your carry ammo.  On one of my 50 rd box of Winchester Ranger RA45T I have found this defective round.  The one on the left is defective.

556man

Quoted: My 12 Ga turkey loads git er done.

I suppose that would be a great choice, if you lived on a poultry farm.

I purchased some non+P 115gr Gold Dots to try and determine whether it was the bullet profile or the +P slide velocity causing the jams.  I still intend to try some +P ammo, but I can't find any locally.  Since the 115-gr GDHP appears to have the same profile as the 124-gr GDHP, I thought that's one variable I could test.

20 rounds downrange.  Functioned perfectly 2-handed.  In my "worst case" shooting grip, the gun again choked on the 3rd round.  Bottom line is the K9 just won't eat Gold Dots.

I'm going back to its old carry load, the Federal 9BP.  Anyone have a cheap source for them?  I shot up the last of my stash in preparation for transitioning to the Gold Dots  

Glenn  I'm going to hit the gander mountain in Kenosha after work today. I'll see if they have any. If they do, do you want me to grab you a box or two, I can give them to you at the pistol class.

Quoted: If they do, do you want me to grab you a box or two, I can give them to you at the pistol class.

The Gander Mountains in LaCrosse and Madison don't stock them, but if Kenosha does, great!  At anything under $.50/round, buy 100 rounds.  If over .50/round, pass on them.  I'll have money & beer at the class  

Quoted: Quoted: If they do, do you want me to grab you a box or two, I can give them to you at the pistol class. The Gander Mountains in LaCrosse and Madison don't stock them, but if Kenosha does, great!  At anything under $.50/round, buy 100 rounds.  If over .50/round, pass on them.  I'll have money & beer at the class

Will do.

Quoted: SOmething to consider about testing the weapon while limp wristing is that you could be weakened by an assault and may not be able to have a rigid two handed or even a one handed hold on the weapon. So, I think it's a good idea to do this to ensure it works if it came to that. Mark

+1, and as a matter of training, practice shooting while simulating a variety of different injuries.  Wrists are very easy to break/sprain, and they will most definitely affect your grip, so it's important to have a gun that will go off no matter how poorly you grip it.  Fine motor skills are usually the first things that go in a fight anyways.  

Quoted: Just want to add that it is also important to check each of your carry ammo.  On one of my 50 rd box of Winchester Ranger RA45T I have found this defective round.  The one on the left is defective. 556man img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/556man/Ranger453.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/556man/Ranger452.jpg

that looks a tad dangerous.

next kB story?

Glenn, Gander didn't have it. I checked with another shop that used to carry it but they no longer carry it either.