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Posted: 10/28/2014 7:22:02 PM EDT
[#1]
CSB, I'm going to go throw away all my JHP ammo now.
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Posted: 10/28/2014 7:41:59 PM EDT
[#2]
what's your point? differing densities of human tissues would explain the lack of symmetrical expansion.
there was a shooting awhile back that the fbi showed in a powerpoint about shot placement. some guy got lit up pretty good by 5.56 and .40 s&w bullets. while he didn't go down easily the .40 bullets were nicely mushroomed iirc. thanks but I'll stick with my ranger ts |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 7:42:15 PM EDT
[#3]
I've dug pretty good .40 S&W mushrooms out of deer. Maybe gangbangers aren't buying top-of-the-line ammo.
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Posted: 10/28/2014 8:25:59 PM EDT
[#4]
For many years, this was 98% true 89% of the time.
It is not easy to make consistently expanding bullets that also penetrate adequately. The concept is simple, and was even used in the late 19th century. Type of handgun and caliber make a big difference. JHPs from 2" .38s probably aren't going to expand well, though some do better than others. Lots of low quality ammo out there. I would disagree about hollow points penetrating completely, as even ball doesn't always do that. Though it surely happens some times. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 8:29:22 PM EDT
[#5]
5. Professional medical examiners can't tell by inspection, or by thorough autopsy, what caliber it was, whether it was a FMJ or hollow point, whether it was standard velocity or +P, what weight the bullet was, who made it, or what barrel length it was fired from. This is true. It would still be true, even if they had the weapon used, samples of unfired ammunition identical to what was used, and the box those cartridges came from. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 8:34:06 PM EDT
[#6]
Seventeen rounds of ball ammo in a Glock 17, more than enough for one or two assailants.
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Posted: 10/28/2014 9:14:43 PM EDT
[#7]
The FBI disagrees. Without knowing the specific bullets that we are talking about it is not much of a test.
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:11:09 PM EDT
[#8]
I'll still use hollow points. Any expansion, however small, is better than a standard FMJ. Other than that, methinks your doctor/cop source isn't scientifically conclusive.
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:18:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll still use hollow points. Any expansion, however small, is better than a standard FMJ. Other than that, methinks your doctor/cop source isn't scientifically conclusive. I agree. There is NO scientifically conclusive evidence about handgun bullet expansion in humans. But it's a cold bucket of water to the face after gelatin tests, water-barrel tests, bullet salesmanship, and speculation. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:58:38 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree. There is NO scientifically conclusive evidence about handgun bullet expansion in humans. But it's a cold bucket of water to the face after gelatin tests, water-barrel tests, bullet salesmanship, and speculation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'll still use hollow points. Any expansion, however small, is better than a standard FMJ. Other than that, methinks your doctor/cop source isn't scientifically conclusive. I agree. There is NO scientifically conclusive evidence about handgun bullet expansion in humans. But it's a cold bucket of water to the face after gelatin tests, water-barrel tests, bullet salesmanship, and speculation. He didnt say there is no evidence he said your doctors experience alone is not enough to be conclusive. Like I said the FBI seems to disagree and they have the single biggest database in the world. I tend to trust them a little more. |
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Posted: 10/29/2014 12:18:25 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He didnt say there is no evidence he said your doctors experience alone is not enough to be conclusive. Like I said the FBI seems to disagree and they have the single biggest database in the world. I tend to trust them a little more. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'll still use hollow points. Any expansion, however small, is better than a standard FMJ. Other than that, methinks your doctor/cop source isn't scientifically conclusive. I agree. There is NO scientifically conclusive evidence about handgun bullet expansion in humans. But it's a cold bucket of water to the face after gelatin tests, water-barrel tests, bullet salesmanship, and speculation. He didnt say there is no evidence he said your doctors experience alone is not enough to be conclusive. Like I said the FBI seems to disagree and they have the single biggest database in the world. I tend to trust them a little more. Exactly |
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Posted: 10/29/2014 12:26:31 AM EDT
[#12]
Yea like gangbangers would use HSTs or GD. There is a reasonwhy they outperform others.
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Posted: 10/29/2014 12:34:46 AM EDT
[#13]
Ive seen hollow points that where shot point blank into hardwood stumps get dug out and they looked almost new. While I know that is about as apples and oranges as you can get it still tells me they arent going to deform as easily as people might think.
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Posted: 10/29/2014 12:55:18 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive seen hollow points that where shot point blank into hardwood stumps get dug out and they looked almost new. While I know that is about as apples and oranges as you can get it still tells me they arent going to deform as easily as people might think. Hollow points expand when they enter soft tissue. There's a reason tests are done on ballistic gelatin and not hardwood forests. |
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Posted: 10/29/2014 2:58:08 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The FBI disagrees. Without knowing the specific bullets that we are talking about it is not much of a test. This. A friend of mine (local PD) had to shoot a fellow a couple years back. Domestic dispute case where the perp decided to come after the cops with a hunting knife. My buddy and his partner both shot two times. All four of the Gold Dots expanded picture perfect. (then again 3 of them went right through the bad guy's heart so he went down like a wet sack regardless) Of course, that is an anecdote not data. Still, they do expand more often than ball. |
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Posted: 10/29/2014 10:57:02 AM EDT
[#16]
As a medical examiner with nearly 30 years and about 10k autopsies, I've examined many thousands of gunshot wounds and removed thousands of bullets. I therefore claim standing to comment, and I call "outdated" on points 1 - 3, straight up "BS" on point 4, agree wholeheartedly on point 5, and return to "outdated" on point 6.
Points 1 - 3 used to be quite true, but I have seen bullet technology dramatically improve over my career. Old hollowpoint designs definitely did / do behave erratically, but modern hollowpoint pistol ammo (i.e., the Ranger, Gold Dot, HST types most typically adopted by FBI and LE agencies) are boringly regular: they expand nicely, penetrate deeply, and are usually found under the skin on the opposite side of the body. As to point 4, the statement is nonsensical on the face of it. Entrance v. exit wound appearance has exactly nothing to do with the bullet design; the wounds only appear "similar" to someone who knows nothing about gunshot wounds. Point 5 is the only thing they told you that is relevant, and is something that bears repeating: when it comes to the actual wound, they pretty much all look alike until we get to rifle power cartridges. Finally, if we are speaking only of 20 year-old hollowpoint designs, yes, the perfect mushrooms are rare. But again, modern designs are boringly regular, and a "pretty" mushroom is the norm, not the exception. |
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Posted: 10/29/2014 11:12:52 AM EDT
[#17]
Very interesting.
Can you elaborate on your point regarding rifle powder cartridges? |
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Posted: 10/29/2014 11:29:31 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very interesting. Can you elaborate on your point regarding rifle powder cartridges? Rifle power, not powder. When we get to velocities (roughly 2000+ fps) at which temporary cavity plays a significant role and some fragmentation is not only allowable, but desirable, the wounds become significantly more destructive. Rifle and shotgun projectiles both create much more tissue damage than handgun projectiles; the rifle ones via significantly greater velocity, the shotgun ones via significantly greater mass. |
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Posted: 10/29/2014 12:09:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Decades of post - mortem examinations have led to the bullet designs and testing methods we use today. That said I agree it's likely that in civilian gunshot wounds you're seeing cheap ammo, not good ammo. If the OPs experts had more experience with LEO- induce wounds I bet the conclusions would be very different.
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Posted: 10/29/2014 12:26:23 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree. There is NO scientifically conclusive evidence about handgun bullet expansion in humans. But it's a cold bucket of water to the face after gelatin tests, water-barrel tests, bullet salesmanship, and speculation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'll still use hollow points. Any expansion, however small, is better than a standard FMJ. Other than that, methinks your doctor/cop source isn't scientifically conclusive. I agree. There is NO scientifically conclusive evidence about handgun bullet expansion in humans. But it's a cold bucket of water to the face after gelatin tests, water-barrel tests, bullet salesmanship, and speculation. Thugs and bangers buy whatever cheap crap they can off of the Walmart shelves. |
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Posted: 10/29/2014 1:11:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Some expansion some of the time is better than no expansion all of the time, so long as both options feed equally reliably.
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Posted: 10/29/2014 7:03:00 PM EDT
[#22]
It is typical to see ammunition 20 years old in shootings here in MA. Many of the cops and da's will tell you that guns are easy to find, ammo is much harder. Photos and ballistics on a recovered revolver yesterday 5 chambers, 5 different headstamps.
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Posted: 10/29/2014 7:21:00 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is typical to see ammunition 20 years old in shootings here in MA. Many of the cops and da's will tell you that guns are easy to find, ammo is much harder. Photos and ballistics on a recovered revolver yesterday 5 chambers, 5 different headstamps. How is ammo so hard to get? 
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Posted: 10/29/2014 9:50:27 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How is ammo so hard to get? You try feeding your LG revolver a steady diet of .22"LR. You can't get that @ Wal Mart. |
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Posted: 10/30/2014 9:53:13 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Rifle power, not powder. When we get to velocities (roughly 2000+ fps) at which temporary cavity plays a significant role and some fragmentation is not only allowable, but desirable, the wounds become significantly more destructive. Rifle and shotgun projectiles both create much more tissue damage than handgun projectiles; the rifle ones via significantly greater velocity, the shotgun ones via significantly greater mass. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Very interesting. Can you elaborate on your point regarding rifle powder cartridges? Rifle power, not powder. When we get to velocities (roughly 2000+ fps) at which temporary cavity plays a significant role and some fragmentation is not only allowable, but desirable, the wounds become significantly more destructive. Rifle and shotgun projectiles both create much more tissue damage than handgun projectiles; the rifle ones via significantly greater velocity, the shotgun ones via significantly greater mass. Just out of curiosity, what has been your experience in shotgun vs rifle wound tracks? |
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Posted: 10/30/2014 10:04:02 AM EDT
[#26]
They have never witnessed the devastating expansion and fragmentation of the ground breaking highly advanced RIP ammo.
(Meant with sarcasm about gimmick ammo) |
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Posted: 10/30/2014 10:11:43 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
I talk to big-city medical examiners and homicide detectives. These are people who dig bullets out of dead people for a living. They all, to a man, say this: 1. Hollow point handgun bullets, all of them, frequently do not expand at all. 2. Hollow point handgun bullets usually expand very little, when they do expand. They almost never expand fully. 3. Hollow point handgun bullets almost always exit. 4. Hollow point handgun bullets make entrance and exit wounds that are usually quite similar on first inspection. 5. Professional medical examiners can't tell by inspection, or by thorough autopsy, what caliber it was, whether it was a FMJ or hollow point, whether it was standard velocity or +P, what weight the bullet was, who made it, or what barrel length it was fired from. Whatever it was, it either hit a nerve center or major cardiovascular vessel, or it didn't. 6. Those perfectly symmetrical mushrooms they get from firing bullets into water-barrels? They never see that in the real world. This squares with the admittedly small sample of autopsy reports I've read, and scene and autopsy photos I've looked at. My real world experience doesn't mirror this Internet story. |
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Posted: 10/30/2014 10:13:37 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've dug pretty good .40 S&W mushrooms out of deer. Maybe gangbangers aren't buying top-of-the-line ammo. Most buy the cheapest ammo on the shelf if they buy at all. Often they steal a gun, dump the mag at someone, and throw the gun away. |
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Posted: 10/30/2014 10:29:31 AM EDT
[#29]
Keep in mind, there is some automatic self-selecting going on.
Autopsies happen on dead people. Bullet wounds that cause the perp enough grief to get the threat to stop while keeping him alive might have some kind of self-selection factor in it. The mushroomed bullets may be in live people. Maybe the live people don't get mushroomed bullets either. To find out the truth, we need to be looking at projectiles from ALL gun shot wounds if we want to talk about what happens when a hollow point hits flesh or bone. The only thing I can conclude from the autopsy numbers is that it's worthwhile not just going for center of mass, but if one can, go for central nervous system or massive blood loss / stopping the circulatory system.
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Posted: 10/30/2014 11:18:16 AM EDT
[#30]
Handguns suck at killing people and that is the bottom line but I will stick with quality bullets in my guns.
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Posted: 10/30/2014 11:26:13 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just out of curiosity, what has been your experience in shotgun vs rifle wound tracks? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Very interesting. Can you elaborate on your point regarding rifle powder cartridges? Rifle power, not powder. When we get to velocities (roughly 2000+ fps) at which temporary cavity plays a significant role and some fragmentation is not only allowable, but desirable, the wounds become significantly more destructive. Rifle and shotgun projectiles both create much more tissue damage than handgun projectiles; the rifle ones via significantly greater velocity, the shotgun ones via significantly greater mass. Just out of curiosity, what has been your experience in shotgun vs rifle wound tracks? It's pretty much what you'd expect from the gelatin profiles. Rifle wounds with ball ammo penetrate deeper and usually exit through big wounds, wounds with hunting-type softpoints are huge and devastating with lots of tiny fragments (the "lead snowstorm" seen on X-ray) and only occasional exits. A solid torso hit with a softpoint out of a deer rifle almost guarantees rapid death. Shotgun wounds, even with close range (< 10 yd) hits that only have a single ragged entrance wound, will still have fairly wide pellet spread in the body due to Breitnecker scatter. This is part of the reason that birdshot sucks: the dense shot mass rapidly disintegrates into individual lightweight pellets with lousy sectional density. The pellets only occasionally penetrate deep enough to hit the important stuff, even with close range hits. It does happen, but not frequently. Slugs and buckshot closely mirror what you see in gelatin. |
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Posted: 10/30/2014 11:39:23 AM EDT
[#32]
I don't know about humans but I have been shooting a helluva lot of raccoons lately and hollow points at least 230 gr rangerT plus Ps really do expand when hitting flesh and leave a much larger exit wound then ball ammo
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Posted: 10/30/2014 11:44:07 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know about humans but I have been shooting a helluva lot of raccoons lately and hollow points at least 230 gr rangerT plus Ps really do expand when hitting flesh and leave a much larger exit wound then ball ammo 147 grain HSTs will open up in the width of a possum's head. |
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Posted: 10/30/2014 11:47:10 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Keep in mind, there is some automatic self-selecting going on. Autopsies happen on dead people. Bullet wounds that cause the perp enough grief to get the threat to stop while keeping him alive might have some kind of self-selection factor in it. The mushroomed bullets may be in live people. Maybe the live people don't get mushroomed bullets either. To find out the truth, we need to be looking at projectiles from ALL gun shot wounds if we want to talk about what happens when a hollow point hits flesh or bone. The only thing I can conclude from the autopsy numbers is that it's worthwhile not just going for center of mass, but if one can, go for central nervous system or massive blood loss / stopping the circulatory system. I see plenty of wounds that, taken alone, would be non-fatal in GSW autopsy cases. Most dead people with GSWs are shot multiple times (especially in police-involved shootings), and only a few of the wounds cause the fatality. Bullet performance (expansion, penetration, etc.) is not significantly different between the bullets that cause non-fatal wounds and those causing fatal wounds. Old style hollowpoints have the erratic performance OP mentioned; modern designs are far more consistent. The part in red is the crux of the issue. The ammo makers have given us good, reliable ammo that behaves well and consistently. That ammo is listed in the Ammo FAQ on this site. If those well-behaved bullets are sent to the wrong place, however, a good result cannot be expected. We shoot to stop the threat without intent to kill, but the subtext is that a reliable "stop" nearly always equals a "kill": in order to achieve that stop, we damage or destroy vital structures. The other side of that coin is the realization that a non-fatal GSW actually nearly always represents a failure of shooter or ammo: if the shooter placed his shots to hit those CNS/circulatory system targets, and the bullet behaved properly, the wound would almost always be non-survivable. |
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Posted: 10/30/2014 9:06:57 PM EDT
[#35]
PigBat, thanks!
 Its always nice when someone with good experience chimes in.Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/30/2014 9:44:42 PM EDT
[#36]
Penetration has always been more important than expansion. True there is much hype and myth about expansion, but if the penetration is a given, by caliber and bullet weight, then generally you want a good, well tested bullet. That should include the ability to maintain the majority of it's mass (to ensure penetration) and the possibility of expansion.
Good ammo is still good ammo. Ninja/Extreme Shock is still BS hype. 22lr hollow point won't expand. 357 mag solid point is still a 357 mag. |
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Posted: 10/30/2014 11:28:03 PM EDT
[#37]
Thank you OP for helping us. Much appreciated good Sir.
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Posted: 10/30/2014 11:46:45 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PigBat, thanks! Its always nice when someone with good experience chimes in.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yes, good stuff. Thank you for lending your experience. |
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Posted: 10/31/2014 7:24:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thank you OP for helping us. Much appreciated good Sir. UPDATE: I checked back with my ME Office doctors yesterday. They did particularly praise the Speer Gold Dot bullets in 9mm. They claim that it's the only one they've seen that expands reliably. In fact one of them has CHL and keeps Gold Dot in all his carry weapons. |
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Posted: 10/31/2014 7:30:33 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
UPDATE: I checked back with my ME Office doctors yesterday. They did particularly praise the Speer Gold Dot bullets in 9mm. They claim that it's the only one they've seen that expands reliably. In fact one of them has CHL and keeps Gold Dot in all his carry weapons. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thank you OP for helping us. Much appreciated good Sir. UPDATE: I checked back with my ME Office doctors yesterday. They did particularly praise the Speer Gold Dot bullets in 9mm. They claim that it's the only one they've seen that expands reliably. In fact one of them has CHL and keeps Gold Dot in all his carry weapons. That contradicts your OP. Did they change their mind?? |
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Posted: 10/31/2014 9:22:06 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That contradicts your OP. Did they change their mind?? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thank you OP for helping us. Much appreciated good Sir. UPDATE: I checked back with my ME Office doctors yesterday. They did particularly praise the Speer Gold Dot bullets in 9mm. They claim that it's the only one they've seen that expands reliably. In fact one of them has CHL and keeps Gold Dot in all his carry weapons. That contradicts your OP. Did they change their mind?? So all of a sudden Gold Dots work this week. The FBI has spent millions of dollars and many years studying shootings , The disagree with the OP . |
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Posted: 11/1/2014 12:54:11 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
UPDATE: I checked back with my ME Office doctors yesterday. They did particularly praise the Speer Gold Dot bullets in 9mm. They claim that it's the only one they've seen that expands reliably. In fact one of them has CHL and keeps Gold Dot in all his carry weapons. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thank you OP for helping us. Much appreciated good Sir. UPDATE: I checked back with my ME Office doctors yesterday. They did particularly praise the Speer Gold Dot bullets in 9mm. They claim that it's the only one they've seen that expands reliably. In fact one of them has CHL and keeps Gold Dot in all his carry weapons. That is GREAT NEWS!!!! Can you please ask them a couple of questions for me please? I shoot a Glock 19 (not sure if you are familiar with this). Based on their findings, I would love to further explore the whole concept of the Gold Dot rounds (not very familiar myself). I want to use them for a self defense type scenario, or maybe if the shit ever hit the fan, and serious defense would be needed! What weight would they reccomend for this type of shooting? What about +P or even +P+ rounds. Would firing a bullit faster make them kill faster in a serious defense system? I know those boys at the FBI shoot a lot of fast rounds, so it may be better, but then again, I am sure they don't take the time to take a hard look at serious wounds like a Dr. would. Thank you in advance, we really appreciate you taking the time out to get us some info not available to many. |
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Posted: 11/1/2014 3:42:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
UPDATE: I checked back with my ME Office doctors yesterday. They did particularly praise the Speer Gold Dot bullets in 9mm. They claim that it's the only one they've seen that expands reliably. In fact one of them has CHL and keeps Gold Dot in all his carry weapons. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thank you OP for helping us. Much appreciated good Sir. UPDATE: I checked back with my ME Office doctors yesterday. They did particularly praise the Speer Gold Dot bullets in 9mm. They claim that it's the only one they've seen that expands reliably. In fact one of them has CHL and keeps Gold Dot in all his carry weapons. Only hollow-point bullet they've seen period, most likely. Texas DPS has, for a very long time, issued .357 SIG Gold Dots as their duty carry round. They recently made the switch to regular 9x19mm, but I can't find a solid verification on what their current bullet is. For the sake of this conversation let's assume it's still Gold Dot. It's pretty much universally agreed upon that those would expand when hitting a bad guy. Meanwhile, bad guys never go into a gun store proper, and most of the time just load whatever cheap ammo is floating around Wally World or is being sold by the local street dealer. My LA Sheriff's Department contacts have seen CCI Blazer, TulAmmo, and Winchester White Box, among others, recovered out of crime guns. None of those are recommended for being great performers in gel, much less in human flesh. If I were to be looking at morgue data, I would exclude data from gang violence that uses cheaply-constructed FMJ bullets that are universally ignored by LE and by the vast majority of users in this forum. In addition, the opinion of MEs is kind of skewed and biased towards the dead, and discounts the actions and experiences of emergency department docs which may be pulling even more expanded JHP out of ones that aren't going to die. Also note that those very same emergency department doctors will also be pulling bullets out of the dying as surgery progresses, and there's no guarantee that those bullets will be paid the same amount of attention as those personally removed by the pathologists. It would be strikingly easy for your MEs to be selectively remembering only the bullets they extracted, and not any recovered by medical caregivers in the midst of lifesaving and sent along with the stiff in an envelope or baggie. Just my two cents. |
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Posted: 11/1/2014 10:10:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
a gun store proper, and most of the time just load whatever cheap ammo is floating around Wally World or is being sold by the local street dealer. My LA Sheriff's Department contacts have seen CCI Blazer, TulAmmo, and Winchester White Box, among others, recovered out of crime guns. It would be strikingly easy for your MEs to be selectively remembering only the bullets they extracted, and not any recovered by medical caregivers in the midst of lifesaving and sent along with the stiff in an envelope or baggie. Just my two cents. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thank you OP for helping us. Much appreciated good Sir. UPDATE: I checked back with my ME Office doctors yesterday. They did particularly praise the Speer Gold Dot bullets in 9mm. They claim that it's the only one they've seen that expands reliably. In fact one of them has CHL and keeps Gold Dot in all his carry weapons. a gun store proper, and most of the time just load whatever cheap ammo is floating around Wally World or is being sold by the local street dealer. My LA Sheriff's Department contacts have seen CCI Blazer, TulAmmo, and Winchester White Box, among others, recovered out of crime guns. It would be strikingly easy for your MEs to be selectively remembering only the bullets they extracted, and not any recovered by medical caregivers in the midst of lifesaving and sent along with the stiff in an envelope or baggie. Just my two cents. In Houston you see a lot of Blazer aluminum FMJ rounds in crook guns. Probably so, since MEs only see the dead, and ER doctors aren't trained or required to pay attention to the bullets. |
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Posted: 11/1/2014 10:15:06 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In Houston you see a lot of Blazer aluminum FMJ rounds in crook guns. Probably so, since MEs only see the dead, and ER doctors aren't trained or required to pay attention to the bullets. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thank you OP for helping us. Much appreciated good Sir. UPDATE: I checked back with my ME Office doctors yesterday. They did particularly praise the Speer Gold Dot bullets in 9mm. They claim that it's the only one they've seen that expands reliably. In fact one of them has CHL and keeps Gold Dot in all his carry weapons. a gun store proper, and most of the time just load whatever cheap ammo is floating around Wally World or is being sold by the local street dealer. My LA Sheriff's Department contacts have seen CCI Blazer, TulAmmo, and Winchester White Box, among others, recovered out of crime guns. It would be strikingly easy for your MEs to be selectively remembering only the bullets they extracted, and not any recovered by medical caregivers in the midst of lifesaving and sent along with the stiff in an envelope or baggie. Just my two cents. In Houston you see a lot of Blazer aluminum FMJ rounds in crook guns. Probably so, since MEs only see the dead, and ER doctors aren't trained or required to pay attention to the bullets. The information is out there, and ER docs don't generally see bullets, except on xrays. |
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Posted: 11/2/2014 1:06:40 AM EDT
[#46]
Still awaiting the info I asked about. Thank you
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Posted: 11/2/2014 11:32:25 AM EDT
[#47]
In Houston you see a lot of Blazer aluminum FMJ rounds in crook guns. Those used to be loaded with plated bullets, and probably still are. Not the best choice, obviously, but I have seen the results of a Blazer FMJ fragmenting when it struck a bone. Surprised me. It definitely didn't act like a typical FMJ. It acted like one of the more overly hyped gimmick cartridges is supposed to. Not my choice for anything besides practice, one shouldn't think of it as typical FMJ, it doesn't always act like FMJ. |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 12:07:17 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yea like gangbangers would use HSTs or GD. There is a reasonwhy they outperform others. I bet the go to gun shows just like us. |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 12:20:58 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Penetration has always been more important than expansion. True there is much hype and myth about expansion, but if the penetration is a given, by caliber and bullet weight, then generally you want a good, well tested bullet. That should include the ability to maintain the majority of it's mass (to ensure penetration) and the possibility of expansion. Good ammo is still good ammo. Ninja/Extreme Shock is still BS hype. 22lr hollow point won't expand. 357 mag solid point is still a 357 mag. Any 22lr HP using a rifle wont expand or fragment in bare gel ? I would of never guessed . And I hunted rabbits and squirrels with CCI stingers and solids. I gave up the CCI stingers because it tore up the flesh more than the standard solid lead. |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 12:51:11 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I bet the go to gun shows just like us. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yea like gangbangers would use HSTs or GD. There is a reasonwhy they outperform others. I bet the go to gun shows just like us. And buy whatever is cheapest |
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