Does this count as "plain view?" EDIT: New pic bottom of pg. 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Does this count as "plain view?" EDIT: New pic bottom of pg. 1

Posted: 7/8/2007 8:21:59 PM EDT

Ga law says that (as a 21 yr old pre-CCL) I can have the gun in the glove box, center console, or in plain view.

Would you say this qualifies or not?

Title edited

Posted: 7/8/2007 8:24:17 PM EDT

[#1]

Im no lawyer but most open carry laws state that the grip of the gun must show in order for it to be considered non-concealed. IMHO yes

Posted: 7/8/2007 8:28:46 PM EDT

[#2]

I would say yes, unless you put down the center arm rest, then it would be obstructed IMHO

Posted: 7/9/2007 12:19:21 AM EDT

[#3]

I would think about it as any place an officer might casually shine his flashlight over in a routine traffic stop, or any place a police officer would be able to have seized contraband without PC for a search.

There?

Absolutely.

Posted: 7/9/2007 9:56:28 AM EDT

[#4]

Not if you're sitting down in the seat. As an officer who pulls you over, I can't see it and IMO, it would be concealed from me.

Posted: 7/9/2007 5:41:44 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Not if you're sitting down in the seat. As an officer who pulls you over, I can't see it and IMO, it would be concealed from me.

This logic would then apply if you wore a gun on your hip.... the officer could only see it from one side

What is the law in your state and how does it define concealed? That is the real issue.

ETA- If you can have the gun concealed in a glove box or armrest, does the law limit where else the weapon can be concealed?

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:23:21 PM EDT

[#6]

Do you leave it like that when you're not in the vehicle or do you lock it in the dash.

Because, honestly, leaving a firearm laying out is stupid. My friend thought about driving around with a shotgun of his while we were going to different gun shops, we didn't know if we'd go shoot that day or not, I went and put it in the house (28'' Browning) because honestly, not worth the hassle, and people are crazy and call the cops, etc, anyway.

Besides the point. How smart is that?

Posted: 7/14/2007 7:27:24 AM EDT

[#7]

I'm not up on my GA law, but realize that FL law has a caveat about the weapon being "readily accessible for immediate use." This is defined as being carried "in such a manner that it can be retrieved and used as easily and quickly as if carried on the person."

Again, I don't know the details of the GA law, but even though it's not totally "concealed," your method of carry could still have some problems if GA has similar laws. Could be worth checking...

Posted: 7/14/2007 7:55:17 AM EDT

[#8]

IMHO - you would be Good to Go with the gun that visible.

Here's the full GA. statute.

www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaws/26thedition/georgia.pdf

Posted: 7/14/2007 12:51:21 PM EDT

[#9]

I would consider that plain view. All of the grip is showing.

In AZ you would be good to go even if it were not visible because a holster counts as a container.

Posted: 7/14/2007 1:53:42 PM EDT

[#10]

Looks in plain view to me.

Posted: 7/14/2007 2:05:11 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Not if you're sitting down in the seat. As an officer who pulls you over, I can't see it and IMO, it would be concealed from me.

Unless the OP is 400lbs you've got to be able to see that. It's easily 1.5 to 2 feet on the other side of his right leg.

Also, if you are serious than please offer some suggestions of where would be more to your liking.

Steve

Posted: 7/14/2007 4:31:48 PM EDT

[#12]

I would just put it in the glove box, man. Why take a chance on getting a LEO riled-up? Just leave it in the glove box and keep your paperwork elsewhere. Besides, the holster may come up with the gun if you draw it from that position.

Posted: 7/14/2007 4:33:49 PM EDT

[#13]

I keep mine there, or in a holster on the back of the passenger seat. Both are easy to access, both are perfectly legal here in louisiana. YMMV

Posted: 7/14/2007 5:47:18 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Not if you're sitting down in the seat. As an officer who pulls you over, I can't see it and IMO, it would be concealed from me.

+1. In Kansas, that would be considered concealed, as it is in contact, covered, or hidden by your body.

Posted: 7/14/2007 6:00:40 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not if you're sitting down in the seat. As an officer who pulls you over, I can't see it and IMO, it would be concealed from me.

+1. In Kansas, that would be considered concealed, as it is in contact, covered, or hidden by your body.

Again like I said above that gun is a minimum of 1.5 feet away from the drivers leg.

Posted: 7/15/2007 8:12:41 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not if you're sitting down in the seat. As an officer who pulls you over, I can't see it and IMO, it would be concealed from me.

Unless the OP is 400lbs you've got to be able to see that. It's easily 1.5 to 2 feet on the other side of his right leg.

Also, if you are serious than please offer some suggestions of where would be more to your liking.

Steve

Tell the officer of the presence of the weapon as soon as he approached the vehicles is one sure way to know that he is aware it is there.

Looking at the pic, it is obviously in plain view; however I'd have to see him sitting in the vehicle to make the "on scene" call about it.

Posted: 7/15/2007 8:19:48 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not if you're sitting down in the seat. As an officer who pulls you over, I can't see it and IMO, it would be concealed from me.

+1. In Kansas, that would be considered concealed, as it is in contact, covered, or hidden by your body.

Again like I said above that gun is a minimum of 1.5 feet away from the drivers leg.

Yes, I understand. It's not concealed as shown. Just a caution. If you had a passenger, that would change. Besides, you're not in KS, so my comment was only a reference note.

Posted: 7/17/2007 2:19:31 PM EDT

[#18]

Get your GFL as soon as you can. Until then, put it in the glove box. IMO it is not "fully exposed to view."

If you want to know the straight poop from GA LEOs, then post this in the GA HTF. The local LEOs will give you their interpretation, and you know those guys are level-headed, reasonable, and support the 2A.

Imagine getting pulled over by a LEO who is not pro-2A, hasn't been laid in a week and dropped his cream-filled donut on his shirt and spilled his coffee on his nads. You'll be taking a ride and shelling out some bucks to a lawyer.

Seriously, post this in the GA forum. I transported my pistol that way for a while when I was working grave yard shift until I received my GFL. I'm curious to see what a reasonable LEO would say.

ETA GA Law below. GA considers your car and business to be an extension of your home, which is why we allow non-licensed folks to have a loaded gun in the car.

(d) This Code section shall not forbid the
transportation of any firearm by a person who is
not among those enumerated as ineligible for a
license under Code Section 16-11-129, provided
the firearm is enclosed in a case, unloaded, and
separated from its ammunition. This Code section
shall not forbid any person who is not
among those enumerated as ineligible for a license
under Code Section 16-11-129 from
transporting a loaded firearm in any private passenger
motor vehicle in an open manner and fully
exposed to view or in the glove compartment,
console, or similar compartment of the vehicle;
provided, however, that any person in possession
of a valid permit issued pursuant to Code
Section 16-11-129 may carry a handgun in any
location in a motor vehicle.

Posted: 7/17/2007 7:08:29 PM EDT

[#19]

Wow, last time I checked this thread it had 4 responses. Looks like it's become quite the debate.

A few responses:

I would just put it in the glove box, man. Why take a chance on getting a LEO riled-up? Just leave it in the glove box and keep your paperwork elsewhere.

The gun stays in the glove box nearly all the time. I stuff it between the seats as shown when I am travelling alone at night.

Besides, the holster may come up with the gun if you draw it from that position.

Drawing will be a two-handed operation no matter what. If it's in the glove box, I still have to hold the holster and pull it off. This just eliminates one step.

Do you leave it like that when you're not in the vehicle or do you lock it in the dash.

See previous response. I keep it in the glove box almost all the time and NEVER have I left it unattended as pictured.

Seriously, post this in the GA forum

I debated whether to post this here or there at the time. I'll post a link shortly.

Get your GFL as soon as you can.

I finished the paperwork last week (less than a week after I turned 21).

I'd have to see him sitting in the vehicle to make the "on scene" call about it.

Your wish is my command:

Posted: 7/17/2007 10:23:28 PM EDT

[#20]

To get the gun any less concealed than that you'd probably have to hang it from the rearview mirror. I can't imagine any cop or judge even remotely considering that concealed. If they do then they fall into the "I hate guns in the hands of any non LEO" catagory.

Posted: 7/17/2007 10:36:54 PM EDT

[#21]

In AZ, I'd recommend you (1) get a paddle holster, (2) keep the holstered gun in the glovebox most of the time, and (3) clip the holster to your belt - open carry, of course -when driving late at night. What if you are in a violent accident, or have to exit the vehicle fast ? You will be scrabbling around on the floor looking for where your gun disappeared to. You know where it is when its on your belt. JMHO.

Posted: 7/18/2007 3:07:18 AM EDT

[#22]

In GA, that would NOT be "in plain view."

Please see the rulings in Moody v. State, Ross v. State & Lindsey v. State on TheGeorgia Packing Firearm Caselaw Page

From Moody:

"While standing near the door checking appellant's driver's license, the officer saw what he recognized as the handle of a gun protruding from under the driver's seat of appellant's vehicle.

...

As was pointed out in Stripling, the law forbidding the carrying of concealed weapons was designed to put those dealing with such persons on notice so that they could govern themselves accordingly. Here, a gun slightly protruding from under the seat of a vehicle does not put others on notice and, therefore, is not "fully exposed" within the statute governing such weapons."

From Ross:

"The trooper observed no evidence of alcoholic impairment, but as he was talking to Ross, he saw the butt of a handgun in the backseat near the area where he had seen Ross reaching, stuck between the back and bottom parts of the seat. The gun looked like a semi-automatic, but the trooper could see only the grip part of the gun.

...

Before considering the pat-down and consent issues, however, we first consider whether the trooper had probable cause to arrest Ross after seeing the partially concealed handgun in the backseat. While OCGA § 16-11-126(d) permits "transporting a loaded firearm in any private passenger motor vehicle in an open manner and fully exposed to view or in the glove compartment, console, or similar compartment of the vehicle," a gun half-hidden in the seat is not "fully exposed " and therefore constitutes an illegal concealed weapon."

(emphasis added)

So, regardless of what the ARFCOM legal team advises, you are carrying illegally if you carry like that.

Posted: 7/18/2007 4:31:45 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
In GA, that would NOT be "in plain view."

Please see the rulings in Moody v. State, Ross v. State & Lindsey v. State on TheGeorgia Packing Firearm Caselaw Page

*snip*

I read the three cases as you linked, and it seems that they aren't exactly the same as my situation. In Moody v. State,the weapon was under the driver's seat, which is far more concealed.

In Ross v. State, there was no charge for the way he transported it; he was charged for having it as a convicted felon and having it while committing a felony.

In Lindsey v. State the issue was over the "similar compartment" language of GA law. He had a weapon in the passenger side door pocket. The argument was not that it was in "plain view" but that it was in a "similar compartment."

If I'm missing something, let me know.

Posted: 7/18/2007 4:35:26 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

If I'm missing something, let me know.

I think it's clear that the courts consider a partially visible weapon to be concealed, that's all.

Also, Join GCO

Posted: 7/18/2007 4:38:24 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:

If I'm missing something, let me know.

I think it's clear that the courts consider a partially visible weapon to be concealed, that's all.

Also, Join GCO

Thank you very much for your input, and I'll look into GCO.

Posted: 7/18/2007 5:02:24 AM EDT

[#26]

It's my understanding of GA law, that to be "in plain view" it must be visible from all four sides of the vehicle. I doubt that you can see that through the rear window. Wedged between the seats, the pistol is partially concealed, which would require a GFL.

Posted: 7/18/2007 5:08:57 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
It's my understanding of GA law, that to be "in plain view" it must be visible from all four sides of the vehicle. I doubt that you can see that from throught the rear window. Wedged between the seats, the pistol is partially concealed, which would require a GFL.

All four sides, aobve and below the vehicle as well...

Posted: 7/18/2007 5:27:15 AM EDT

[#28]

height=8

Quoted:

In Ross v. State, there was no charge for the way he transported it; he was charged for having it as a convicted felon and having it while committing a felony.

Greenfeet, please read Ross all the way through before you make up your mind. What you say is true, that is, he was not charged with carrying a concealed weapon. But you failed to look at why the court was reviewing this issue at all. The reason? Because Ross was challenging probable cause. The court said that a firearm half hidden in the seat is probable cause to arrest for carrying a concealed firearm.

height=8

Before considering the pat-down and consent issues, however, we first consider whether the trooper had probable cause to arrest Ross after seeing the partially concealed handgun in the backseat. While OCGA § 16-11-126(d) permits "transporting a loaded firearm in any private passenger motor vehicle in an open manner and fully exposed to view or in the glove compartment, console, or similar compartment of the vehicle," a gun half-hidden in the seat is not "fully exposed " and therefore constitutes an illegal concealed weapon.

[T]he law forbidding the carrying of concealed weapons was designed to put those dealing with such persons on notice so that they could govern themselves accordingly. Here, a gun slightly protruding from ... the seat of a vehicle does not put others on notice and, therefore, is not "fully exposed " within the statute governing such weapons. Moody v. State, 184 Ga.App. 768, 769(1), 362 S.E.2d 499 (1987).

After the trooper saw the gun, he handcuffed Ross. . . .

Further, Ross's arrest was lawful. An officer may make a warrantless arrest and search if, at the time of the arrest, he has probable cause to believe the accused has committed or is committing an offense. Johnson v. State, 258 Ga. 506, 507(2), 371 S.E.2d 396 (1988). In this case, at the time of the arrest the trooper knew that Ross had committed traffic violations and had a concealed weapon in his car. This information was sufficient to cause a prudent person to believe defendant had committed or was committing a crime. See Moody v. State, supra, 184 Ga.App. at 769, 362 S.E.2d 499. Thus, Ross's arrest was authorized, and the trial court did not err in denying Ross's motion to suppress evidence of the drugs seized during the officers' subsequent search of Ross incident to that arrest. Ridgeway v. State, 205 Ga.App. 218, 422 S.E.2d 4 (1992).

I hope this helps in reading Ross and applying it to your situation.

Posted: 7/18/2007 5:35:32 AM EDT

[#29]

One more thing, you also need to look at the definition of "fully exposed."
From the Lindsey case by the Supreme Court.

"Therefore, an armed person does not comply with the mandate of the statute unless his or her weapon is displayed so as to be visible to all observers."

Of course, that is not a complete test, either, as we have seen with the cases holding that partial concealment (i.e., a part of the gun is clearly visible to the officers) is not visible but is concealed.

One of the cases holds that a gun in the pocket of a door, visible to one officer, is concealed because the pocket does not have a lid which would conceal it, implying that if the door pocket did have a lid to conceal the gun then the gun would not be concealed.

Yes, you read that last sentence correctly.

Posted: 7/18/2007 5:37:24 AM EDT

[#30]

The best thing is to get your license. By the way, GCO is pushing a pending bill, HB 89, that would fix this issue for you. The bill was introduced by Rep. Bearden, who is speaking to GCO at its summer lunch on August 18.

GCO Summer Lunch Link Here

Maybe you should attend!

Posted: 7/18/2007 4:23:46 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
The best thing is to get your license. By the way, GCO is pushing a pending bill, HB 89, that would fix this issue for you. The bill was introduced by Rep. Bearden, who is speaking to GCO at its summer lunch on August 18.

GCO Summer Lunch Link Here

Maybe you should attend!

You and Date crack me up with your ~~not so~~ subtle sales pitches to join GCO. I need to get off my duff and write ya'll a check. I appreciate ya'll getting Gwinnett Co. to obey state law regarding parks and issuing temp. GFLs. Keep up the good work.

edited to hot link GCO

Posted: 7/18/2007 8:49:01 PM EDT

[#32]

Sounds like it could be concealed if you don't have the handle, barrel and all components exposed. Because they could claim you were attempting to conceal it.

The way I approach guns laws is "Hope for the best, plan for the worst." Plan on meeting the biggest anti-gun asshat on the planet, or some rookie who's going to flip his shit when you have a gun. There are members and stories of members here, I'm sure they'll pipe up, about being stopped and de armed by cops who were paranoid when they found out they had a CHL. These people are legally allowed to carry a gun and yet an officer felt unsafe. But I understand why, but still, point being these are people that have more licensing than regular joe schmo, you know, they passed some kind of a back ground test.

In Georgia, they come in all shapes in sizes, especially the closer you get to Atlanta. (I lived in GA for 8 years.) So just plan for the worse, IMHO they could say you were partially concealing it. It could be probable cause for some jerk officer to try to search your car.(I'm not saying cops are, but they are all over, there's no reason not to believe there's a jerk cop out there.) Hell some of the NFA guys get shit all the time from police even though every thing they have is legal. Which is all that should matter.

So, it could go either way.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Does this count as "plain view?" EDIT: New pic bottom of pg. 1

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