Too bad we can't choose which laws to follow...  

I read somewhere that Centerfire cancelled their AMD-65 order right away - I'm not sure if they had Form 6s approved or not - but I hope they had an approved Form 6 and that they didn't cancel too early.

I hope the FTG is successful in their suit.  We can hope right?  

What do you think the cost of a AK barrel will be?  You see most chrome-lined AR barrels selling for around $200 - hopefully AK barrels can be made cheaper...

Spooky

The ywill still be cheaper than AR barrels!  Thanks Jeep!

I would say that barrels will be brought in like the lo-cap receivers.  If a barrel is brought in without the gas chamber/bayonet lug and no threads (but OD of barrel end at 14mm to allow the threads to be chased) then the LETTER of the law has been obeyed.  Add your bayonet lug/gas chamber and threads and press your front sight on, and voila, you have the barrel you want.  

It may not be convenient, but would be better than having no imported barrels at all.  Chrome-lined barrels aint cheap to begin with, it would be much easier to start with a correct barrel except for threads and pressed out parts!

Quoted: ....straight from the importer.... No new law was enacted on the barrel import ban however, the BATFE is not approving any more Form 6s for kits with barrels. Low cap guns can still be brought in (go figure!). What the BATFE is doing is "following the letter of the law" of laws that are already on the books. The form6's that were approved prior, are being let in , no more though. The FTG (Fair Trade Group) is filing a lawsuit against them in this matter. Bottom line, kits will not be as plentiful as they are right now, but the supply isn't completely cut off. Bottom line we will start seeing US made barrels.

Did they elaborate:
A) why they are not approving any Form 6's, and
B) how long the "suspension" of approving Form 6's is going to be?

Thanks for the update!

hats off to the importers who jumped on the ball and got us kits.....it was just a matter of time

Quoted: ....straight from the importer.... No new law was enacted on the barrel import ban however, the BATFE is not approving any more Form 6s for kits with barrels. Low cap guns can still be brought in (go figure!). What the BATFE is doing is "following the letter of the law" of laws that are already on the books. The form6's that were approved prior, are being let in , no more though. The FTG (Fair Trade Group) is filing a lawsuit against them in this matter. Bottom line, kits will not be as plentiful as they are right now, but the supply isn't completely cut off. Bottom line we will start seeing US made barrels.

you mean no more 100% romanian kits........down with the BATFE!!!!!

Quoted: I would say that barrels will be brought in like the lo-cap receivers.  If a barrel is brought in without the gas chamber/bayonet lug and no threads (but OD of barrel end at 14mm to allow the threads to be chased) then the LETTER of the law has been obeyed.  Add your bayonet lug/gas chamber and threads and press your front sight on, and voila, you have the barrel you want.   It may not be convenient, but would be better than having no imported barrels at all.  Chrome-lined barrels aint cheap to begin with, it would be much easier to start with a correct barrel except for threads and pressed out parts!

Yeah, that's what they will do.
I think there'll be plenty of bbls leaking into the country. Once in, who is to ever know when they were manufactured.

All this is going to do is put more money in the pockets of importers, from our wallets.  Not a big deal AFAIC.

Glad I got mine!!!

i really think the batf is over reaching there power
its not a gun plain and simple so they should have no say  

Not approving any more Form 6s, that means the Form 6s that already been approved are ok. This would mean there would be a supply of kits for 1 maybe 2 years. By then someone would be making US barrels.

hmm one more complete year I should have my professional engineering license and my masters degree...who wants to make or contract out some barrels  

This really stinks, but I don't think it will be the ned of home building.  At least, not yet.

No more easy headspacing, at any rate.

well I guess I need to buy a lathe and some chamber reamers now, now where am I going to fit that in my apartment

on the bright side, I can make RPK clones a bit easier now I guess, kina

cant they just tack weld the muzzle device on, and either grind off the bayo lug or remove the gas block?

Quoted: i really think the batf is over reaching there power its not a gun plain and simple so they should have no say

You are missing the point.

If a gun is illegal to import into the country (for whatever reason, whether its right or wrong), why should someone be able to import that parts for the gun and then build it?

People have been playing with the law and tip toeing around it.  Some in complete disregard to the law.

I kind of agree with the BATF on this one.  The law is just the law, they are merely enforcing it.

Personally I think it will be a good thing in the long run.  Yes the days of building a cheap not very safe screw build for $200 are gone.  But this will promote innovation and competition within the US market.  Maybe we can get a quality US built AK for less then $800 like the few US made ones cost.

Hardship always drives innovation.  There was no incentive for US companys to get into the AK market because of the cheap foreign parts coming in.  Maybe now they will.

Quoted: Quoted: i really think the batf is over reaching there power its not a gun plain and simple so they should have no say

You are missing the point.

If a gun is illegal to import into the country (for whatever reason, whether its right or wrong), why should someone be able to import that parts for the gun and then build it?

People have been playing with the law and tip toeing around it.  Some in complete disregard to the law.

I kind of agree with the BATF on this one.  The law is just the law, they are merely enforcing it.[/quot]

The guns and kits being imported are not illegal and what we as consumers are doing is not illegal either. I'm sure this doesn't bother you at all because you have no interest in this type of firearm! How would you feel if all of the sudden you had no source for parts for your guns?

Quoted: ....straight from the importer.....

In other words..........this is still a completely unsubstantiated rumor started by an unknown importer/retailer who wants to bump the price of their kits.

In today's world of instant communication, if this were anywhere close to being a fact, we would have TONS of evidence already.  If we still don't have specific names and verbage by close of business tomorrow, I think we will know it's B.S.

Quoted: All this is going to do is put more money in the pockets of importers, from our wallets.  Not a big deal AFAIC.

Not a big deal??? WTF???? Anytime more freedom is lost it is a VERY BIG DEAL!!!!



Ohh, and DACE.. Don't be soo quick to side with the terrorists of the ATF.. What we have been doing is completly legal!!

Quoted: You are missing the point. If a gun is illegal to import into the country (for whatever reason, whether its right or wrong), why should someone be able to import that parts for the gun and then build it? People have been playing with the law and tip toeing around it.  Some in complete disregard to the law. I kind of agree with the BATF on this one.  The law is just the law, they are merely enforcing it.

Dace:



The guns that are "illegal" to import into this country are unimportable due to an arbitrary decision made by the ATF that these rifles have no "sporting purpose".  It's a chickenshit ruling.

The guns that we have assembled (or paid to have assembled, or purchased assembled) comply 100% with the law - that is, they have the requisite number of US parts in them to be considered domestic firearms, therefore, guess what buddy?  NOT ILLEGAL.

Please let us know exactly who is skirting the law?  If the law says "This rifle is bad, and you can't build it unless you put these parts in it", so we build it with those parts in it, that's full compliance with the law.

You sound like one of these jackholes who complain that the AR manufacturers were "exploiting a loophole" in the '94 AWB.

By the ATF's own words, the "repair/replacement" clause was intended for the importers ONLY - not people who buy the kits.

Go ahead and agree with the ATF - and continue to agree with them when they completely ban imports of any weapons or parts.  Then agree with them when they start cracking down on domestic firearms.  And continue to agree with them when they push for complete firearms bans.



Also, I'm just curious - how are screw builds unsafe?  I personally don't want one, due to authenticity reasons, but I have yet to see any kind of information about a screw build kabooming.  Got any information to back up your claim that they're unsafe?

There's a ton of quality US-built AK's on the market right now, for well under $800.  It's asinine that we should have to even THINK about paying that much for an AK, let alone actually pay it.

Quoted: Quoted: i really think the batf is over reaching there power its not a gun plain and simple so they should have no say   You are missing the point. If a gun is illegal to import into the country (for whatever reason, whether its right or wrong), why should someone be able to import that parts for the gun and then build it? People have been playing with the law and tip toeing around it.  Some in complete disregard to the law. I kind of agree with the BATF on this one.  The law is just the law, they are merely enforcing it.

They are just stoking the economy, plain and simple.
Just another way to make you spend $$$ out of your hip national bank. (wallet). and faster.

Quoted: Yes the days of building a cheap not very safe screw build for $200 are gone

Grade 8 screws are stronger than rivets, hands down, sorry but try again bud.

Well,  Can an importer bring in just barrels with a trunnion and bolt (correct headspace) and sell them for replacement purposes then?  Then if you have a kit without the barrel you would be good to go?

Bringing America Towards Fascism

Will this ruling have any impact on manufacturers like Arsenal, Inc? They're importing their barrels. Or is this just in relation to parts kits intended for non-assembled sale?

Anyone who agrees with BATF on anything is an Idiot ... IMHO ....

This could, now remember I only said could be a problem one particular importer is facing that they're blowing way out of proportion. They couldn't get some 'form 6s' (whatever that is) approved so they say the ATF isn't approving them period. Until we hear from the ATF or a whole bunch of different importers, it's not really known.

Quoted: Anyone who agrees with BATF on anything is an Idiot ... IMHO ....

Big ole +1 on that Jugrunner..

I was the one that gave JEEPCREEP the info. I have a close personal friend that is an importer.  We had a cook out and MG shoot yesterday.He has brought in several types of AK kits in the past. He does not solely make his money on kits. They bring in large amounts of complete rifles,pistols and ammo as well.  He is not spreading bullshit to drive up prices. This cuts into his wallet in the long run. No matter what a short increase would make. Only a true bbl. blank can be brought in i.e. unchambered, so that would mean not chrome lined. Thre can't be any bbls. brought in for replacement either. They are pushing to get this changed, but like The guys from Akron Armory said.  It's the ones that didn't follow the law that has stirred it up any way. There was a guy at a local show this weekend that had a table of non 922r compliant rifles. He basically just didn't care.

We will have to wait and see. This effects my lively hood in a large way as well.

Quoted: I was the one that gave JEEPCREEP the info. I have a close personal friend that is an importer.  We had a cook out and MG shoot yesterday.He has brought in several types of AK kits in the past. He does not solely make his money on kits. They bring in large amounts of complete rifles,pistols and ammo as well.  He is not spreading bullshit to drive up prices. This cuts into his wallet in the long run. No matter what a short increase would make. Only a true bbl. blank can be brought in i.e. unchambered, so that would mean not chrome lined. Thre can't be any bbls. brought in for replacement either. They are pushing to get this changed, but like The guys from Akron Armory said.  It's the ones that didn't follow the law that has stirred it up any way. There was a guy at a local show this weekend that had a table of non 922r compliant rifles. He basically just didn't care. We will have to wait and see. This effects my lively hood in a large way as well.

So basically its still all hearsay and there is nothing from the BATF yet.

Quoted: Quoted: You are missing the point. If a gun is illegal to import into the country (for whatever reason, whether its right or wrong), why should someone be able to import that parts for the gun and then build it? People have been playing with the law and tip toeing around it.  Some in complete disregard to the law. I kind of agree with the BATF on this one.  The law is just the law, they are merely enforcing it. Dace: www.kythri.net/pictures/13flip_off.jpg The guns that are "illegal" to import into this country are unimportable due to an arbitrary decision made by the ATF that these rifles have no "sporting purpose".  It's a chickenshit ruling. The guns that we have assembled (or paid to have assembled, or purchased assembled) comply 100% with the law - that is, they have the requisite number of US parts in them to be considered domestic firearms, therefore, guess what buddy?  NOT ILLEGAL. Please let us know exactly who is skirting the law?  If the law says "This rifle is bad, and you can't build it unless you put these parts in it", so we build it with those parts in it, that's full compliance with the law. You sound like one of these jackholes who complain that the AR manufacturers were "exploiting a loophole" in the '94 AWB. By the ATF's own words, the "repair/replacement" clause was intended for the importers ONLY - not people who buy the kits. Go ahead and agree with the ATF - and continue to agree with them when they completely ban imports of any weapons or parts.  Then agree with them when they start cracking down on domestic firearms.  And continue to agree with them when they push for complete firearms bans. Also, I'm just curious - how are screw builds unsafe?  I personally don't want one, due to authenticity reasons, but I have yet to see any kind of information about a screw build kabooming.  Got any information to back up your claim that they're unsafe? There's a ton of quality US-built AK's on the market right now, for well under $800.  It's asinine that we should have to even THINK about paying that much for an AK, let alone actually pay it.

Kythri:



I can post dorky photos also.

There's a ton of quality US-built AK's on the market right now, for well under $800

Then why are you complaining?

It's asinine that we should have to even THINK about paying that much for an AK, let alone actually pay it.

Why?

Go ahead and agree with the ATF - and continue to agree with them when they completely ban imports of any weapons or parts.  Then agree with them when they start cracking down on domestic firearms.  And continue to agree with them when they push for complete firearms bans.

Sorry but now you are strecthing.  You are drawing a parallel between two seperately unrelated issues.

There is a law or ruling on the books.  They are simply enforceing it.  I dont see what the problem is.  Whether the law is wrong or right, they are doing their job.  You cant get mad at the BATF for finally enforcing a law when they were ignoring it before.  Get mad at the legislater who allows them to do it.  They are an agency of the US government.  The US government is run by congres and the president.  Take it up with them.

And to whoever compared the BATF to terrorists.  You sir are an idiot.  I cannot beleive you compared american citizens working hard for a federal agency to the same people who flew the planes into the WTC and continue to murder american in the middle east.  The above photo is for you also.

What I find funny is the fact that some are putting the blame on others for not following the parts count on their builds. It doesn't even matter because the kits are still going to be assembled with or without US made parts and that's the real issue here, ASSEMBLY OF NON-SPORTING FIREARMS. So you really can't place the blame on the homebuilder or gunsmith that assembles a kit straight from the box. They just saved on spending any money on replacing good parts with US made copies and as long as we try to appease the BATFE or their bosses by abiding by stupid laws like that one, we will always lose. You can't appease someone or somebody that can make or change the rules of the game at their own whim people, so why even try with the parts content issue?

Quoted: There's a ton of quality US-built AK's on the market right now, for well under $800 Then why are you complaining?

Because I like buying my own kits, sourcing my own parts, and having it built by the builder of my choice.

Shouldn't I be allowed that priviledge?

It's asinine that we should have to even THINK about paying that much for an AK, let alone actually pay it. Why?

Because, the only reason prices have or will jump that high is due to arbitrary decisions made by an enforcement body who's sole job is to enforce an existing law - not interpret it, re-interpret it, re-interpret it again, or even worse, create new rulings that seem to carry the force of law.

These are $200-$300 rifles that continue to increase in price due to ever more restriction arbitrarily assigned by an agency that is not the United States Legislature.

Go ahead and agree with the ATF - and continue to agree with them when they completely ban imports of any weapons or parts.  Then agree with them when they start cracking down on domestic firearms.  And continue to agree with them when they push for complete firearms bans. Sorry but now you are strecthing.  You are drawing a parallel between two seperately unrelated issues.

Uhm, not really.  Have you paid attention to the history of gun control in this country?

First, we were completely unregulated.  Then we got taxed on certain groups of firearms.  Then those firearms got restricted.  Then imports got restricted.  Then domestic firearms got restricted (and luckily, that sunset).  Now they're restricting imports even further.

Not even considering the gun control legacy of any other country, our country's own history is fraught with restriction after restriction on firearms that were previously legal.  It keeps happening.

If history is any indication (and it usually is), it will continue to happen.  That's not a stretch - that's how it's been, and how it looks like it's going to be.

There is a law or ruling on the books.  They are simply enforceing it.  I dont see what the problem is.  Whether the law is wrong or right, they are doing their job.  You cant get mad at the BATF for finally enforcing a law when they were ignoring it before.  Get mad at the legislater who allows them to do it.  They are an agency of the US government.  The US government is run by congres and the president.  Take it up with them.

There is a law or ruling on the books that they continue to re-interpret all the time.  Their own published ruling has said that the imported kit barrel's "repair/replacement" clause ONLY APPLIED TO THE IMPORTER.  THAT'S WHAT'S ON THE BOOKS, MY FRIEND.

Now, they're re-interpreting it, and re-writing the book.

On who's authority?  Certainly not ours, and certainly not our legislative officials.

THEY ARE AN ENFORCEMENT AGENCY, NOT A POLICY-MAKING AGENCY.

What part of this can't you understand?

And to whoever compared the BATF to terrorists.  You sir are an idiot.  I cannot beleive you compared american citizens working hard for a federal agency to the same people who flew the planes into the WTC and continue to murder american in the middle east.  The above photo is for you also.

Hrmm.  What's the ATF's body count up to lately?  How many American Citizens have they murdered?  Quite a few.  Ruby Ridge, Mt. Carmel, numerous others, one or two at a time.

The BATFE in the past has easily met the definition of a terrorist organization.  They issue a fatwa ("You shall not have this!"), then declare jihad on a group of people, and then they execute them.

Please reconsider who the idiot is here.  It surely isn't any of us who know our country's history, and know the history of an enforcement agency that has repeatedly overstepped it's bounds and MURDERED CITIZENS OF THE UNTED STATES OF AMERICA.

And they're here, not in the Middle East.

Quoted: Quoted: i really think the batf is over reaching there power its not a gun plain and simple so they should have no say   You are missing the point. If a gun is illegal to import into the country (for whatever reason, whether its right or wrong), why should someone be able to import that parts for the gun and then build it? People have been playing with the law and tip toeing around it.  Some in complete disregard to the law. I kind of agree with the BATF on this one.  The law is just the law, they are merely enforcing it.

Is this a Toad account???

Quoted: Quoted: EDITED for SHEER IMPACT! He is not spreading bullshit to drive up prices. This cuts into his wallet in the long run. No matter what a short increase would make. We will have to wait and see. This effects my lively hood in a large way as well. You speak "Gospel",.. Brother Troy,...GOSPEL! ANYONE that thinks ANY IMPORTER or VENDOR is HAPPY about this further restriction of Form 6s is NOT a student of BASIC BUSINESS ECONOMICS. That person is IGNORANT and speaking out to draw IGNORANT APPLAUSE! Bob P.S.  If someone is waiting for BATFE to send out notifications to the "un-clean",...HAHAHAHAHA!

Thanks Troy and Bob. It's a pleasure knowing gentlemen who know what they are talking about.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: i really think the batf is over reaching there power its not a gun plain and simple so they should have no say   You are missing the point. If a gun is illegal to import into the country (for whatever reason, whether its right or wrong), why should someone be able to import that parts for the gun and then build it? People have been playing with the law and tip toeing around it.  Some in complete disregard to the law. I kind of agree with the BATF on this one.  The law is just the law, they are merely enforcing it. Is this a Toad account???

I dont know, the spelling is far above Mr. Baileys ability.  perhaps one of his minions?

Quoted: Quoted: We were informed that the 922r compliance ruling was the judgment factor when building a rifle. Yes, this is what I stated in my response to Gfltoe.  People are assembling AK, and other rifles with complete disregard to the parts count, and 922r. Although I am no fan of the ruling, it is the law, and we are lucky enough to be in a community of others who have picked up the ball and are making US made AK parts

You've got to be joking, right? It doesn't matter if you put 16 US made parts in an AK, the BATFE will always change the rules to suit their agenda. It's not the parts count issue man or that people are building these with the parts that came with the kit, IT'S THAT THEY ARE BEING ASSEMBLED, period. Can't you see that they don't want the kits assembled to begin with no matter how many US parts are used. In all reality, what did 922r accomplish to stifle the production and assembly of foreign made rifles? Nothing. So they're betting if they take out the barrels and make it even harder for the homebuilder to assemble a rifle from a kit, they've accomplished their goal. And when that doesn't work, then their only solution will be a total ban on all parts sets and more than likely any parts period.

Quoted: And to whoever compared the BATF to terrorists.  You sir are an idiot.  I cannot beleive you compared american citizens working hard for a federal agency to the same people who flew the planes into the WTC and continue to murder american in the middle east.  The above photo is for you also. Hrmm.  What's the ATF's body count up to lately?  How many American Citizens have they murdered?  Quite a few.  Ruby Ridge, Mt. Carmel, numerous others, one or two at a time. The BATFE in the past has easily met the definition of a terrorist organization.  They issue a fatwa ("You shall not have this!"), then declare jihad on a group of people, and then they execute them. Please reconsider who the idiot is here.  It surely isn't any of us who know our country's history, and know the history of an enforcement agency that has repeatedly overstepped it's bounds and MURDERED CITIZENS OF THE UNTED STATES OF AMERICA. And they're here, not in the Middle East.

You were making some good and valid points, I was looking forward to having a nice argument about it.  But then you posted that and lost all credibility.

We live in the greatest nation on this earth and we have more freedoms then anyone else on this planet.  You take this for granted.

The only part I am saddened by is the affect this ruling will have on those who built their business around building these kits.  The small business owners like jnewt on this board.



 

tagged

Thanks Conley

Quoted: Thanks Conley

HAHA

Thats funny.  

How about a link to some DOJ documentation or statement of intention?

Appreciate the heads up, but it's all just hearsay withou that.