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Posted: 8/7/2010 5:48:57 PM EDT
Thought you might like to see my latest project.
So many people were talking about quad stack magazines but, seems like no one had ever actually seen one. Kinda like Bigfoot. So I decided it’s just the sort of challenge for TWS to take on. This has been in the pipeline for a few months now and is getting close to being a reality for us here in the ‘Ole USA. Here's the basics of it: The design so far is for 7.62 x 39. In the length of a 30 rounder I can fit about 55 rounds. In the length of a 40 rounder I can fit about 75. You get just a little less than double the capacity for the same length as a standard double stack. We have only built the 55 round and not the 75 round but, that's just a length issue. We're still working out the details of form and function. The mag shown here is only a prototype so there will be numerous changes as the product evolves. First on the agenda is a textured exterior for better grip. There is still plenty of work to do on this so your input is more than welcome. I’ll leave you with a few teaser pics to enjoy.  
 
For comparison a 75 rd drum weighs 2.1925 Lbs empty. The TWS 55 rd quad stack mag weighs .7815 Lbs empty.  
When loaded the TWS quad stack mag weighs 2.725 Lbs. Only about 1/2 pound more than the empty drum. Here's the contents for perspective.  
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Posted: 8/7/2010 5:51:02 PM EDT
[#1]
very nice, how long before you think they will be for sale, and how much will they cost?
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Posted: 8/7/2010 5:59:22 PM EDT
[#2]
In on 1. This will be awesome
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Posted: 8/7/2010 6:03:29 PM EDT
[#3]
that is awesome!
what is the material of the body? also would like a cost estimate but understand if that hasnt been established yet. thanks bahbo |
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Posted: 8/7/2010 6:07:38 PM EDT
[#4]
Cool!
It does look kinda comical sticking out of the gun 
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Posted: 8/7/2010 6:12:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
that is awesome! what is the material of the body? also would like a cost estimate but understand if that hasnt been established yet. thanks bahbo Body in polymer. The cost will be somewhat less than a drum but, somewhat more than hi quality 30 rd. polymer. I think the really important discussion here is how the thing feels and handles. For an idea, just tape together a couple of plastic 30's and imagine you don't have to flip them to throw all that lead downrange. It's really quite well balanced and is a HUGE improvement over the drum. |
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Posted: 8/7/2010 6:17:48 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Cool! It does look kinda comical sticking out of the gun Yeah, kinda Bubba isn't it? You do get used to it though. Once you get your head around the increased firepower of the SAW gunner deploying an RPK it starts to take on a certain beauty. |
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Posted: 8/7/2010 6:18:07 PM EDT
[#7]
 Niiiiiice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The 55 rnder looks perfect to me. The wife is sure to kill me now but at least I'll die with a smile and a quad or two.
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Posted: 8/7/2010 6:28:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Very cool.
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Posted: 8/7/2010 6:30:23 PM EDT
[#9]
Kick ASS!!
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Posted: 8/7/2010 10:45:49 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 8/8/2010 7:43:44 AM EDT
[#11]
When will the 5.45 model be available?
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Posted: 8/8/2010 8:03:03 AM EDT
[#12]
Will it have any steel reinforcement in the feed lips and locking lugs?
I would be concerned with that much weight hanging out on a polymer-only mag. |
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Posted: 8/8/2010 8:34:04 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Will it have any steel reinforcement in the feed lips and locking lugs? I would be concerned with that much weight hanging out on a polymer-only mag. +1. That would be my concern as well. Especially after so many US makers have screwed us with their abortions and have outright LIED about where the metal is. |
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Posted: 8/8/2010 8:40:08 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Will it have any steel reinforcement in the feed lips and locking lugs? I would be concerned with that much weight hanging out on a polymer-only mag. Not to mention just plain functionality and durability. |
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Posted: 8/8/2010 9:44:58 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
When will the 5.45 model be available? Yep. The cool kids roll with 5.45mm. |
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Posted: 8/8/2010 10:16:46 AM EDT
[#16]
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter, do want.
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Posted: 8/8/2010 10:36:37 AM EDT
[#17]
On a serious note, if you guys have the capability to design, refine, manufacture ons bring this to market, you'd be fools to start with AKs. A quad stack magazine for AR-15 platform weapons would be a bigger money maker.
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Posted: 8/8/2010 11:12:11 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
On a serious note, if you guys have the capability to design, refine, manufacture ons bring this to market, you'd be fools to start with AKs. A quad stack magazine for AR-15 platform weapons would be a bigger money maker. A doublestack Saiga 12 mag would fly off the shelves like lightning. |
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Posted: 8/8/2010 11:24:49 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
On a serious note, if you guys have the capability to design, refine, manufacture ons bring this to market, you'd be fools to start with AKs. A quad stack magazine for AR-15 platform weapons would be a bigger money maker. Magpul already has a patent on a quad stack design for the AR-15 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/08/magpuls-quad-stack-magazine/ |
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Posted: 8/8/2010 11:34:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
A doublestack Saiga 12 mag would fly off the shelves like lightning. +100... Proven functionally reliable, and at a fair price, you'd have pre-orders for 1000s in the first run. I'm sure you already know where to find us Saiga folks 
I'll second that there better be some significant steel lip reinforcement in a polymer mag, for any caliber, but especially for the S12 if ya ever did one. ........................................... Oh yeah... I just bought one of your Dog Leg Rails, and I look forward to putting it on my Saiga.308-ver.21. |
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Posted: 8/8/2010 11:58:16 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Will it have any steel reinforcement in the feed lips and locking lugs? I would be concerned with that much weight hanging out on a polymer-only mag. +1. That would be my concern as well. Especially after so many US makers have screwed us with their abortions and have outright LIED about where the metal is. +2 Steel reinforcement feed lips and locking lugs |
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Posted: 8/8/2010 3:21:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Will it have any steel reinforcement in the feed lips and locking lugs? I would be concerned with that much weight hanging out on a polymer-only mag. +1. That would be my concern as well. Especially after so many US makers have screwed us with their abortions and have outright LIED about where the metal is. There will definitely be metal in the locking lugs for ruggedness and to better handle the weight. I'm as yet undecided about the feed lips. The important question regarding the feed lips is how much life expectancy should one expect from a magazine before it's lost in battle, crushed by a tank, or used as a blunt instrument on the enemy(not covered under warranty ). Is it the discharge of 5,000 rounds? Maybe 10,000 or 20,000 rounds or is the right number 100,000 rounds? The longer the life expectancy the more this thing is going to weigh and cost.
Look at the construction of the drum. I have no doubt that thing will discharge 50-100K rounds just fine. The downside is it's an inefficient design and is a big fat pig. Over two pounds empty, handles terribly, and sells for a hundred bucks. At the more conventional end of things a high end 30 round poly sells for about $30, not heavy, and handles well. I don't know how long those will last so maybe someone can chime in on that. So, you tell me. How much life expectancy do you need from a magazine and that will tell us the right mix of materials. Personally, I believe polymer lips can be designed to handle 40-50K rounds through them. Last thing I'm curious about is companies actually deceiving about metal in their mag when there wasn't? Did someone actually do that? |
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Posted: 8/8/2010 3:23:49 PM EDT
[#23]
A doublestack Saiga 12 mag would fly off the shelves like lightning.
One step at a time but, we're on the same page 
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Posted: 8/8/2010 5:35:29 PM EDT
[#24]
I think if follow some of the same characteristics that are in the circle 10 mags then every one will be banging at your door. Nice idea!!!!
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Posted: 8/8/2010 5:41:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Needs video.
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Posted: 8/8/2010 5:48:33 PM EDT
[#26]
DT.
Page ownage. |
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Posted: 8/8/2010 5:51:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Quoted: On a serious note, if you guys have the capability to design, refine, manufacture ons bring this to market, you'd be fools to start with AKs. A quad stack magazine for AR-15 platform weapons would be a bigger money maker. A doublestack Saiga 12 mag would fly off the shelves like lightning. Mike Davidson, MD Arms, has one, but won't release it or any info until his patents are cleared. From other reputable people in the industry such as Tony Rumore, the mags are real, and function reliably. |
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Posted: 8/8/2010 8:01:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
There will definitely be metal in the locking lugs for ruggedness and to better handle the weight. I'm as yet undecided about the feed lips. The important question regarding the feed lips is how much life expectancy should one expect from a magazine before it's lost in battle, crushed by a tank, or used as a blunt instrument on the enemy(not covered under warranty ). Is it the discharge of 5,000 rounds? Maybe 10,000 or 20,000 rounds or is the right number 100,000 rounds? The longer the life expectancy the more this thing is going to weigh and cost.
At the more conventional end of things a high end 30 round poly sells for about $30, not heavy, and handles well. I don't know how long those will last so maybe someone can chime in on that. So, you tell me. How much life expectancy do you need from a magazine and that will tell us the right mix of materials. Personally, I believe polymer lips can be designed to handle 40-50K rounds through them. If you look at how the metal reinforcement in the feed lip / spine area is done on Soviet / Bulgarian 5.45 polymer magazines, it doesn't add a whole lot of weight at all. Personally, I expect a magazine to last my lifetime (same as the gun). I realize that things like this may add much more to the cost of production than many people think, but it's what most people will look for. |
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Posted: 8/9/2010 4:21:24 AM EDT
[#29]
You can read minds Rafaga, def want.
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Posted: 8/9/2010 9:49:05 AM EDT
[#30]
I don't think the feed lips would have to be reinforced by steel. I have a couple polymer mags that see more or less all of my AK use –– a Tapco 20-rounder and a Bulgarian 5-rounder. The Tapco is kept fully loaded between range sessions, putting extended maximum pressure on the lips, and shows no signs of deformation.
The range I shoot at only allows for 5 rounds to be loaded at a time. This means that despite relatively low round counts through the mags, they've seen an awful lot of mag changes. In the case of the Tapco, about 800 rounds and 160 changes at the range. The all-polymer lugs show only minor scuffs. 
The Bulgarian 5-round mag gets more use. What can I say, 5 is all I can load and the shorter mag is a lot less likely to get in the way. This little guy's seen about 2000 rounds and 400 range changes. 
The lips look fine. So does that tiny front lug the Bulgarians see as being plenty. 
The rear lug looks good. The polymer cap over the steel insert is showing some wear, but I assume (and hope!) the insert is buried deep in there. Now, as for what I'm not doing. I'm not using the mags as a monopod. I'm not dropping from a standing position to a prone position on the mag (which I assume I'd be doing if I used this in a military fashion). I'm not storming through houses and banging the mag on doorframes and the like as I go through. So my mags live a pretty pampered life. But those are arguments for steel-reinforced locking lugs. Polymer lips wouldn't see any extra wear, and mine seem to be holding up just fine. |
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Posted: 8/9/2010 10:10:30 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
There will definitely be metal in the locking lugs for ruggedness and to better handle the weight. I'm as yet undecided about the feed lips. The important question regarding the feed lips is how much life expectancy should one expect from a magazine before it's lost in battle, crushed by a tank, or used as a blunt instrument on the enemy(not covered under warranty ). Is it the discharge of 5,000 rounds? Maybe 10,000 or 20,000 rounds or is the right number 100,000 rounds? The longer the life expectancy the more this thing is going to weigh and cost.
At the more conventional end of things a high end 30 round poly sells for about $30, not heavy, and handles well. I don't know how long those will last so maybe someone can chime in on that. So, you tell me. How much life expectancy do you need from a magazine and that will tell us the right mix of materials. Personally, I believe polymer lips can be designed to handle 40-50K rounds through them. If you look at how the metal reinforcement in the feed lip / spine area is done on Soviet / Bulgarian 5.45 polymer magazines, it doesn't add a whole lot of weight at all. Personally, I expect a magazine to last my lifetime (same as the gun). I realize that things like this may add much more to the cost of production than many people think, but it's what most people will look for. I would pay more for the metal reinforcement but doubt I would buy one without the metal reinforcement in the feed lips and locking lugs |
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Posted: 8/9/2010 10:54:10 AM EDT
[#32]
Would you also refuse to buy and use Bulgarian circle-10 waffle mags? I hear their lack of steel lips makes them no good ;)
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Posted: 8/9/2010 11:01:26 AM EDT
[#33]
Tag for future development.
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Posted: 8/9/2010 1:54:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Would you also refuse to buy and use Bulgarian circle-10 waffle mags? I hear their lack of steel lips makes them no good ;) The Bulgarian waffles do indeed have steel lined feed lips. |
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Posted: 8/9/2010 2:35:25 PM EDT
[#35]
You know what, you're right. I looked at k-var's literature. It's just buried under all that plastic.
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Posted: 8/10/2010 2:32:08 PM EDT
[#36]
I bought a few of the Arsenal US made OD greens when they had a sale, they work and function very well. They came thick so you could sand a little to fit if you needed too. They fit my Tantal a little snug.I think they also have metal feed lips.
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Posted: 8/10/2010 2:37:30 PM EDT
[#37]
Oh and +1 more for 5.45 and Metal Feed Lips and Lug.
I think the metal was used in the Feed Lips and Lug for added tensile strength. I think Plastic may have a lot of compressive strength like concrete, but little tensile strength. That's important to remember since you have force from the loaded spring pushing the feed lips into tension, and sometimes forces against the lug nut (like prone positions) that may put the lug nut into tension. Steel has extremely high tensile strength (low compressive). This is why concrete is reinforced with steel. Concrete has very high compressive but low tensile strength. The steel is what gives concrete it's ability to be high in compressive and tensile strengths. They also have very close thermal co-efficients so their thermal expansion and contractions are very close. This is important so it doesn't crack or break with temperature change. It would be interesting to compare thermal co-efficients with polymer and steel. |
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Posted: 8/10/2010 3:44:31 PM EDT
[#38]
Agree with Notorious, want it to last forever.
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Posted: 8/10/2010 10:53:03 PM EDT
[#39]
Yes, I want an will buy several. Yes, please give us the metal reinforced locking lugs and feed lips. I own over 100 Bulgy Circle 10's for this very reason. They are the best AK mags out there!
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Posted: 8/11/2010 4:49:18 AM EDT
[#40]
I think the confusion is that there have been some commercial market Bulgarian mags released which do not have the metal locking lugs.
Although I'm no magazine collector or expert, all the surplus Bulgarian '74 magazines I have seen have the reinforced feed lips - they are especially evident on some of the Soviet AK-74 magazines I have seen. On these, the reinforcement is not just right at the feed lips, but extends slightly below them, and also having metal reinforcement visible at the front of the magazine. |
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Posted: 8/11/2010 2:30:15 PM EDT
[#41]
Damn I need this bad in 5.45! But Ill patiently wait as long as its in the works. Frankly I think most people who own an AK in 5.45 would buy at least one quad stack mag.
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Posted: 8/11/2010 3:13:50 PM EDT
[#42]
Just to reiterate what has already been said, we NEED THIS IN 5.45!!!!!!
I think we should TAG this thread |
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Posted: 8/11/2010 6:23:02 PM EDT
[#43]
Looks great so far, please take your time and make it right.
As soon as you got the 7.62 on the market and know they work, please start on a 5.45 design. 
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Posted: 8/11/2010 6:51:45 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Just to reiterate what has already been said, we NEED THIS IN 5.45!!!!!! Yeah, I'm picking up on that.
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Posted: 8/11/2010 7:20:07 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Personally, I expect a magazine to last my lifetime (same as the gun). I realize that things like this may add much more to the cost of production than many people think, but it's what most people will look for. We need to define this better. If you practice and train enough then it's possible to wear out the barrel on a weapon. Just look at some of the worn out parts kits that have come in. Is it reasonable to expect a magazine to last longer than a barrel? Maybe the answer is yes, maybe it's no. Maybe the right answer is put the metal in the feed lips cause it makes people feel good. The lugs certainly need metal just because of the added weight of the greater capacity. The feed lips can go either way. I'm not necessarily pushing back on metal feed lips. It's just a case of putting the work where it will do the most good. If good design and proper materials will give you a tough as nails product at a decent price then does it have to be as tough as an anvil at a greater cost for what could be a smallish incremental benefit? |
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Posted: 8/11/2010 9:26:55 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just to reiterate what has already been said, we NEED THIS IN 5.45!!!!!! Yeah, I'm picking up on that.
The 5.45 fans will be better customers, but there are a lot more 7.62 AKs. However, if the mag isn't made entirely from 6 gauge stamped steel and costs $8, the 7.62 guys are going to turn on you like an angry mob. Pitch forks and torches... |
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Posted: 8/12/2010 8:20:11 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Personally, I expect a magazine to last my lifetime (same as the gun). I realize that things like this may add much more to the cost of production than many people think, but it's what most people will look for. We need to define this better. If you practice and train enough then it's possible to wear out the barrel on a weapon. Just look at some of the worn out parts kits that have come in. Is it reasonable to expect a magazine to last longer than a barrel? Maybe the answer is yes, maybe it's no. Maybe the right answer is put the metal in the feed lips cause it makes people feel good. The lugs certainly need metal just because of the added weight of the greater capacity. The feed lips can go either way. I'm not necessarily pushing back on metal feed lips. It's just a case of putting the work where it will do the most good. If good design and proper materials will give you a tough as nails product at a decent price then does it have to be as tough as an anvil at a greater cost for what could be a smallish incremental benefit? The 'smallish' benefit of metal in the feed lips is when fully loaded and dropped, the mag will still function. Dropping mags does happen more than folks think as trying to load when people are shooting at you tends to make one fumble fingered. Also it adds strength to keep the feed lips from spreading when the mag is left loaded. Think of it as adding pennies to make DOLLARS! |
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Posted: 8/12/2010 10:50:52 AM EDT
[#48]
I've never dropped a rifle, but I'll throw my mags when I need to and accidently drop them like everybody, I would like feed lips that don't break
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Posted: 8/12/2010 11:42:46 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
When will the 5.45 model be available? Yep. The cool kids roll with 5.45mm. I was so about to email you this link. |
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Posted: 8/12/2010 12:59:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
There will definitely be metal in the locking lugs for ruggedness and to better handle the weight. I'm as yet undecided about the feed lips. The important question regarding the feed lips is how much life expectancy should one expect from a magazine before it's lost in battle, crushed by a tank, or used as a blunt instrument on the enemy(not covered under warranty ). Is it the discharge of 5,000 rounds? Maybe 10,000 or 20,000 rounds or is the right number 100,000 rounds? The longer the life expectancy the more this thing is going to weigh and cost.
Look at the construction of the drum. I have no doubt that thing will discharge 50-100K rounds just fine. The downside is it's an inefficient design and is a big fat pig. Over two pounds empty, handles terribly, and sells for a hundred bucks. At the more conventional end of things a high end 30 round poly sells for about $30, not heavy, and handles well. I don't know how long those will last so maybe someone can chime in on that. So, you tell me. How much life expectancy do you need from a magazine and that will tell us the right mix of materials. Personally, I believe polymer lips can be designed to handle 40-50K rounds through them. Last thing I'm curious about is companies actually deceiving about metal in their mag when there wasn't? Did someone actually do that? The answer is metal feed lips "the right number 100,000 rounds" |
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