5.45x39 performance

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Posted: 12/12/2009 5:12:02 AM EDT

As far as knock down power these bullets are not the real deal are they? Did the original bullet design have a hollow section a little bit after the point so that the point would bend over real easy. All the surplus bullets on the market are just plain solid bullets. For a more easier reference which one 7.62x39 or 5.45x39 would be better on deer? I figure its the 7.62 but if 5.45 had the original bullet design it would be a toss up.

snowman357

Posted: 12/12/2009 5:51:18 AM EDT

[#1]

SNOWMAN , what I have discovered:
I have done some extensive testing on both bullets.

I have found that in compairson in expansion there is little difference.

best measurable test was useing kevilar helmet

5.45x39 went through one side and when it exited the other there was a nicklesize hole

7.62x39 went through one side and when it exited the other side there was a quartersize hole
thats not enough differance to make a judgement call.
so ...5.45 x 39 has about as much recoil as my staple gun....thats good if you have to make a follow up shot.
ammo is lighter, mags are lighter ....to me this means less fatigue when in the woods
great for a small frame guy or young ladie......all in all a lighter package all togehter.
I like the 762x39 but the mags dont fit well in my mag pouch...5.45 mags do.
hope this helps any one who reads this.....

Posted: 12/12/2009 6:03:33 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
As far as knock down power these bullets are not the real deal are they? Did the original bullet design have a hollow section a little bit after the point so that the point would bend over real easy. All the surplus bullets on the market are just plain solid bullets. For a more easier reference which one 7.62x39 or 5.45x39 would be better on deer? I figure its the 7.62 but if 5.45 had the original bullet design it would be a toss up.

snowman357

The Original Mil-Spec ammo with the airspace is almost equal to 5.56 NATO in ballistics and Terminal performance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.45x39mm

Posted: 12/12/2009 6:25:43 AM EDT

[#3]

I'm guessing your state doesn't have restrictions on caliber sizes for deer. In VA the only the 7.62 would meet the legal requirements.

As far as "knock down" is concerned, take some time to read the tacked threads within the ammo forums.

Posted: 12/12/2009 7:09:27 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I'm guessing your state doesn't have restrictions on caliber sizes for deer. In VA the only the 7.62 would meet the legal requirements.

As far as "knock down" is concerned, take some time to read the tacked threads within the ammo forums.

+1

As for deer X39 all the way. I have shot deer w/ the 5.45 and the deer ran dead 30 yards. The exact same shot placement with the X39 = fall over dead

I can trust the X39 totally, i have to make perfect shot placement w/ the 5.45.... I still choose to hunt w/ the 5.45

edit:

spelling

Posted: 12/12/2009 7:12:47 AM EDT

[#5]

Member -x- 's kickass kills

7N6 ammo. No Autopsy. Big buck and a doe.
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11092

7N6 ammo. Autopsy. Small button buck.
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16176

7N6 ammo. Autopsy. Doe.
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38356

7N6 ammo. Autopsy. Doe.
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=39540

7N6. Autopsy. Buck.
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=114985

Wolf 60gr HP. Autopsy. Buck & Doe.
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=112495

Barnual 55gr SP. Autopsy. Doe.
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=114017

Wolf 70gr & Wolf 154gr SP. No Autopsy. Buck.
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13412

Wolf 154gr SP. No Autopsy. Small button buck.
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=74365

Posted: 12/12/2009 7:24:29 AM EDT

[#6]

Your question ,which is better on deer, 7x39. In Ky all centerfires are legal, it used to be .243 or larger and no 30 carbine.I think they should've keep that law,(I know,many deer have been taken with a .22).It would mean less wounded deer. A 30 cal 122 gr bullet at 2300fps has more energy than a 60 gr at 2800. I think many experts will agree with this, that even the more powerful .223 is pushing the envelope anything bigger than a coyote.

Posted: 12/12/2009 7:34:44 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
As far as knock down power these bullets are not the real deal are they? Did the original bullet design have a hollow section a little bit after the point so that the point would bend over real easy. All the surplus bullets on the market are just plain solid bullets. For a more easier reference which one 7.62x39 or 5.45x39 would be better on deer? I figure its the 7.62 but if 5.45 had the original bullet design it would be a toss up.
snowman357

That is definitely incorrect. You can buy 5.45 with the air space in the tip. In fact, all the cheap 5.45 corrosive surplus out there right now is the 7N6 (which has the hollow tip). Here are a couple pics from a gentleman on theakforum.net who was using cheap 7N6 surplus 5.45 with the air tip.

Posted: 12/12/2009 8:11:09 AM EDT

[#8]

Nice whitetail. I wonder how 5.45x39 would do against a bigger mule deer. Unfortunately I won't be able to find out because hunting big game with anything less than .243 is illegal in Utah. I know a 7.62x39 works great.

Posted: 12/12/2009 8:14:03 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Nice whitetail. I wonder how 5.45x39 would do against a bigger mule deer. Unfortunately I won't be able to find out because hunting big game with anything less than .243 is illegal in Utah. I know a 7.62x39 works great.

That is incorrect; the only requirement is that the round has to be expanding and centerfire.

Posted: 12/12/2009 8:21:23 AM EDT

[#10]

I used 5.45 wolf hp on a doe a few weeks ago. The deer looked exactly like the pic above. I did miss a different little buck the day before, and I believe it was due to the bullets deflecting off of branches. I concluded this from all the pine branches flying thru the air while I was shooting. Follow up shots are easy. In fact, I pretty much double tap every time I shoot. I also found that 5.45 is a great round for culling illegal deer running dogs. If it is at all brushy where you hunt, bigger is better. Shot placement is much more critical with the 5.45 than 7.62, but then again, shot placement is always critical.......
I.

Posted: 12/12/2009 8:43:33 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Nice whitetail. I wonder how 5.45x39 would do against a bigger mule deer. Unfortunately I won't be able to find out because hunting big game with anything less than .243 is illegal in Utah. I know a 7.62x39 works great.

That is incorrect; the only requirement is that the round has to be expanding and centerfire.

Nice. I might have to try it out next season. Has anyone here gotten a mule deer with a 5.45?

Posted: 12/12/2009 10:08:08 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Nice whitetail. I wonder how 5.45x39 would do against a bigger mule deer. Unfortunately I won't be able to find out because hunting big game with anything less than .243 is illegal in Utah. I know a 7.62x39 works great.

That is incorrect; the only requirement is that the round has to be expanding and centerfire.

Nice. I might have to try it out next season. Has anyone here gotten a mule deer with a 5.45?

No mule deer down here

though a few of -x-'s Bucks were mule deer size. He is in GA, i believe. I wouldn't hunt mule deer w/ the 5.45, but thats me. Its a good hunt w/ the 5.45 and i enjoy "learning" what it can do to flesh.

-x-'s buck

Posted: 12/12/2009 10:23:02 AM EDT

[#13]

Many states have limits on caliber and especially on the use of military full metal jacket ammo.

Since the 7.52x39 is "about" equal to the old deer killer .30-30 Winchester round, it will perform better on larger deer with sporting expanding ammo than the smaller 5.45x39.

On small deer, the 5,45x39 will perform about as well as it does in humans, which according to the Russians and Afghan Mudj, is pretty good.

The military 7N6-PS bullet is designed to be very stable in flight, but destabilize and tumble quickly once it hits. The design with the hollow air space moves the center of gravity to the rear, which stabilizes it in flight, but causes it to tumble when it decelerates as it hits.

Here's a 7N6-PS bullet.
Note the mild steel, blunt core, the lead cap on top of the core, and the air space.
There's a thin layer of lead between the steel core and the outer jacket.

Posted: 12/12/2009 12:14:58 PM EDT

[#14]

So do all 5.45 bullets have the hollow core? May be getting an ak soon was thinking 7.62 until I saw the ammo prices of the 5.45. Didn't 5.45 get hard to find a few years back? Are their any other rifles other than ar15 and ak 74 in 5.45 also?

Thanks

Snowman357

Posted: 12/12/2009 12:57:08 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
So do all 5.45 bullets have the hollow core? May be getting an ak soon was thinking 7.62 until I saw the ammo prices of the 5.45. Didn't 5.45 get hard to find a few years back? Are their any other rifles other than ar15 and ak 74 in 5.45 also?

Thanks

Snowman357

Yes, we need some clarity. I was always under the impression that the Russian spam can stuff had the airspace etc., and that it was the Wolf/SilverBear stuff that did not. Not sure now.

Posted: 12/12/2009 3:34:23 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So do all 5.45 bullets have the hollow core? May be getting an ak soon was thinking 7.62 until I saw the ammo prices of the 5.45. Didn't 5.45 get hard to find a few years back? Are their any other rifles other than ar15 and ak 74 in 5.45 also?

Thanks

Snowman357

Yes, we need some clarity. I was always under the impression that the Russian spam can stuff had the airspace etc., and that it was the Wolf/SilverBear stuff that did not. Not sure now.

Surplus has a Hollow tip. Wolf, Silverbear and barnaul make a SP and HP.

I have seen some bolt action 5.45, but other than that im not sure.

Posted: 12/12/2009 3:39:59 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So do all 5.45 bullets have the hollow core? May be getting an ak soon was thinking 7.62 until I saw the ammo prices of the 5.45. Didn't 5.45 get hard to find a few years back? Are their any other rifles other than ar15 and ak 74 in 5.45 also?

Thanks

Snowman357

Yes, we need some clarity. I was always under the impression that the Russian spam can stuff had the airspace etc., and that it was the Wolf/SilverBear stuff that did not. Not sure now.

Surplus has a Hollow tip. Wolf, Silverbear and barnaul make a SP and HP.

I have seen some bolt action 5.45, but other than that im not sure.

Thanks, those must be for that East German police sniper rifle.

Posted: 12/15/2009 10:01:08 AM EDT

[#18]

If you guys are going to post my pictures at least post some of the better ones. Use the newest ones since they are good looking bucks!

10/17/09

11/07/09

The links are worth looking at if you are interested in the wound tracks the bullets make.

P.S. I do not recommend 5.45 for the average hunter. Shot placement is always key, but more so with the 5.45. Hunt according to your ability and hunting conditions.

Posted: 12/15/2009 10:43:08 AM EDT

[#19]

So if I understand correctly, the small white dog viciously pursues and ferociously pulls down the terror stricken deer and you just finish it off with the AK?

Posted: 12/15/2009 11:05:06 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

All the surplus bullets on the market are just plain solid bullets.

The surplus is 7N6 and does have the air tip.

Posted: 12/15/2009 11:51:56 AM EDT

[#21]

-X-,

I'm no stranger to deer/antelope/elk hunting and even guided on a large ranch off and on over the years. Been present for the taking of a lot of animals both here in NA and several weeks worth of time on the ground in South Africa. That said...I'm somewhat surprised by the success you have enjoyed with the 5.45 on deer. The air space caused tumbliing apparently DOES work wonders.

Over the years I've seen many deer and elk wounded by 5.56mm FMJ ammofrom AR's . And back when the SKS's were dirt cheap it was nothiing to find a deer or elk with a few holes from 7.62x39 FMJ's dead weeks after the season ended or lingering for days before dying from wounds.

Have seldom seen FMJ bullets work very well on big game....even 147 gr GI out of the M-14 platform. I carried an M-14 as a patrol rifle and routinely used it to shoot wounded game if tthey were too far to simply pop in the skull with my sidearm. I always carried some 165 gr Federal SP's for the M-14 should I have to shoot a deer or elk at distance. Worked a heck of a lot better than fmj's which seemed to "pencil through" with little damage.

Your southern deer ARE fairly small which surely helps, and I'd assume the engagement distances are short?? I'm assuming you hunt them in cover vs open fields? Still....I'm surprised.

FN in MT

Posted: 12/15/2009 2:38:36 PM EDT

[#22]

I'll never get tired of the hunting poodle, makes my day everytime.

And look, X is all grown up with a goatee now

Z

Posted: 12/15/2009 3:10:18 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
So if I understand correctly, the small white dog viciously pursues and ferociously pulls down the terror stricken deer and you just finish it off with the AK?

Sometimes we use that tactic. Most of the time the War Poodle executes the kill shot (his preferred weapon is the Krink). I’m usually just there to observe and take the pictures.

Quoted:
-X-,

I'm no stranger to deer/antelope/elk hunting and even guided on a large ranch off and on over the years. Been present for the taking of a lot of animals both here in NA and several weeks worth of time on the ground in South Africa. That said...I'm somewhat surprised by the success you have enjoyed with the 5.45 on deer. The air space caused tumbliing apparently DOES work wonders.

Over the years I've seen many deer and elk wounded by 5.56mm FMJ ammofrom AR's . And back when the SKS's were dirt cheap it was nothiing to find a deer or elk with a few holes from 7.62x39 FMJ's dead weeks after the season ended or lingering for days before dying from wounds.

Have seldom seen FMJ bullets work very well on big game....even 147 gr GI out of the M-14 platform. I carried an M-14 as a patrol rifle and routinely used it to shoot wounded game if tthey were too far to simply pop in the skull with my sidearm. I always carried some 165 gr Federal SP's for the M-14 should I have to shoot a deer or elk at distance. Worked a heck of a lot better than fmj's which seemed to "pencil through" with little damage.

Your southern deer ARE fairly small which surely helps, and I'd assume the engagement distances are short?? I'm assuming you hunt them in cover vs open fields? Still....I'm surprised.

FN in MT

First, let me say that I don’t attribute my kills entirely to the ‘magical powers’ of the tumbling 7N6 bullet. Not all my kills were with the 7N6 ammo. I have to give the credit to shot placement. However, I will say that the 7N6 is definitely my preferred ammo choice for 5.45. I do think it performs much better than the commercial ammo currently on the market. The tumbling effect was more devastating to the internal organs.

Engagement distances are short and in a wooded/cover environment. The vast majority of my kills are while the War Poodle and I stalk through the woods. The shots typically range from 30 – 80 yards. Sometimes we sneak up on the deer without being detected. Other times I may spook a deer and shoot while it is running. I have not lost/wounded a deer with the 5.45 rifle.

Posted: 12/15/2009 3:58:28 PM EDT

[#24]

The shorter distances surely help. The velocity hasn't bled off as much yet and velocity is your ally. The 5.45 seems to surely work better on game than the 5.56 does with a 55 gr FMJ. Interesting.

FN in MT

Posted: 12/16/2009 7:21:16 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
I'll never get tired of the hunting poodle, makes my day everytime.

Thanks, that's good to hear! The Poodle and I enjoy entertaining the Forums.

And look, X is all grown up with a goatee now

Yep, that’s been my new look throughout 2009

. The hair on my face finally started growing and I got lasik surgery to get rid of the glasses. I've been enjoying the new look so far!

Posted: 12/20/2009 4:29:06 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

+1

As for deer X39 all the way. I have shot deer w/ the 5.45 and the deer ran dead 30 yards. The exact same shot placement with the X39 = fall over dead

I can trust the X39 totally, i have to make perfect shot placement w/ the 5.45.... I still choose to hunt w/ the 5.45

edit:

spelling

You realize that both 7.62 and 5.45 are x39 right

Posted: 12/21/2009 7:06:12 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:

+1

As for deer X39 all the way. I have shot deer w/ the 5.45 and the deer ran dead 30 yards. The exact same shot placement with the X39 = fall over dead

I can trust the X39 totally, i have to make perfect shot placement w/ the 5.45.... I still choose to hunt w/ the 5.45

edit:

spelling

You realize that both 7.62 and 5.45 are x39 right

7.62x39, x51, x54r, x25.................. 5.45x39.. thats it...... Using 7.62 is too vague/broad.... When the 7.62x39 is in reference w/ the 5.45x39, it is couth to refer to the 7.62x39 as X39.

You should know that im a lazy ass that does not want to type the whole damn thing

Posted: 12/22/2009 6:02:18 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
I used 5.45 wolf hp on a doe a few weeks ago. The deer looked exactly like the pic above. I did miss a different little buck the day before, and I believe it was due to the bullets deflecting off of branches. I concluded this from all the pine branches flying thru the air while I was shooting. Follow up shots are easy. In fact, I pretty much double tap every time I shoot. I also found that 5.45 is a great round for culling illegal deer running dogs. If it is at all brushy where you hunt, bigger is better. Shot placement is much more critical with the 5.45 than 7.62, but then again, shot placement is always critical.......
I.

I hope you don't ever cross the border into Missouri with that practice

. It is illegal to shoot a dog on your property unless it is harassing domestic animals or doing property damage. The Missouri Sporting Dog Association works to prosecute all dog killers. Dogs unlike humans do not know to respect private property. I agree that having dogs running across your property is annoying when you are trying to still hunt, but illegal dog running needs to be reported to the local sherriff or game warden. Do not kill the dog it doesn't know any better!

Posted: 12/22/2009 9:49:25 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
So do all 5.45 bullets have the hollow core? May be getting an ak soon was thinking 7.62 until I saw the ammo prices of the 5.45. Didn't 5.45 get hard to find a few years back? Are their any other rifles other than ar15 and ak 74 in 5.45 also?

Thanks

Snowman357

Commercial 60 grain 5.45 cartridges (Barnaul and Wolf) also have the air pocket in the tip. They DO NOT have the mild steel insert, only lead in the jacket.
These bullets destabilize and tumble very much like the surplus 7n6 but are non-corrosive. They do not penetrate as much however.

Avoid the 70 grain commercial ammo as it is filled all the way with lead, and does not destabilize / tumble like the lighter commercial and surplus bullets.
Barnaul was considered to be more accurate than wolf which I validated in my own testing, and is even today considered to be higher quality.
I do not have any experience with any soft point or hollow point ammo that may be available today. Not looking for it, don't want it.

Posted: 12/22/2009 11:35:09 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I used 5.45 wolf hp on a doe a few weeks ago. The deer looked exactly like the pic above. I did miss a different little buck the day before, and I believe it was due to the bullets deflecting off of branches. I concluded this from all the pine branches flying thru the air while I was shooting. Follow up shots are easy. In fact, I pretty much double tap every time I shoot. I also found that 5.45 is a great round for culling illegal deer running dogs. If it is at all brushy where you hunt, bigger is better. Shot placement is much more critical with the 5.45 than 7.62, but then again, shot placement is always critical.......
I.

I hope you don't ever cross the border into Missouri with that practice

. It is illegal to shoot a dog on your property unless it is harassing domestic animals or doing property damage. The Missouri Sporting Dog Association works to prosecute all dog killers. Dogs unlike humans do not know to respect private property. I agree that having dogs running across your property is annoying when you are trying to still hunt, but illegal dog running needs to be reported to the local sherriff or game warden. Do not kill the dog it doesn't know any better!

I bit my tongue because it was irrelevant to the thread but by my avatar you can tell I agree with you Bighunt. Here in Alabama it is illegal to shoot a hunting dog on your property.

Posted: 2/18/2010 12:11:29 AM EDT

[#31]

Bronco, what kind of accuracy were you getting with a Barnaul and Wolf? Which would you use as a go to hunting bullet, the barnaul, wold or 7n6?

Posted: 2/18/2010 7:24:51 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Bronco, what kind of accuracy were you getting with a Barnaul and Wolf? Which would you use as a go to hunting bullet, the barnaul, wold or 7n6?

NEITHER.

Hunting with non-fragmenting FMJs is unethical in most cases IMO.

Posted: 2/18/2010 4:00:05 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Bronco, what kind of accuracy were you getting with a Barnaul and Wolf? Which would you use as a go to hunting bullet, the barnaul, wold or 7n6?

I have other guns that I enjoy deer hunting with. Usually .308 but thinking of taking something else out next year.
My 74s don't get shot much. I recently gunkoted them and need to sight them in.
If I remember, I will post some results. I will only be able to compare the Ukrainian 7N6 to Barnaul 60 grain with air-tip.
No Wolf 60 grain left.

I don't trust myself enough to get my hits on deer with the AKs. Iron sights and east german folders.

Posted: 2/18/2010 5:27:31 PM EDT

[#34]

Wasn't necessarily referring to deer, referring to the littler varmint/predator pests. We have a 308 and 7.62x39 for the ungulates

Posted: 2/19/2010 6:29:00 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Wasn't necessarily referring to deer, referring to the littler varmint/predator pests. We have a 308 and 7.62x39 for the ungulates

Cool.

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