Well, here is my pistol.  I've posted it on other threads, but decided to make it's own....



If the pic is the X , then try here: Direct link to image above.....

Info:
Stag Arms lower
Model 1 Sales pistol kit.  The barrel is (can't recall exactly), 10 or 11" long.  Gas tube is in the 'carbine' upper postion.  Assembled Sept 13, 2004

Performance report:
Fed and cycled w/out any issues.  Ammo used was military surplus and Russian ammo (not Wolf), the other brand...the one w/ the bear on the box.  Put about 80 rounds to test for fuction (accuracy was not the issue at this time).  Only problem, some round would not fire.  Hammer hit the round, but would not go off.  Re tring the ammo set most off...so I'm assuming that there might be a primer depth issue.  I'll have to try some other ammo to see how it does.


Edit- fixed link and image

Quoted: Didja hit anything?

Yes, the ground.....and a few "air molecules" I'm sure....

You may not have had the bolt fully closed on the rounds that didn't go bang.  Its possible that the hammer energy was spent closing the bolt/carrier that last little bit, for either the drag on the bolt carrier from the magazine seems to be more that the little pistol recoil spring can overcome, or the carrier is bouncing off the breachface (bolt-bounce) and the spring isn't enough to push it fully back into battery due to mag drag or even gas tube drag.

The next time it happens, press the F/A to see if the carrier moves forward the slightest bit.

My experience with the pistol recoil springs is that they shorten very quickly.

Cheers, Otto


ETA: I posted a longer description of what you may be experiencing here.

Thanks for the range report Kaliburz. I'm interested in a 10" bbl pistol and would love to know the overall length and weight of yours if you don't mind. I'd really appreciate it.

BTW, I tried visiting the link you posted and I can't access it at work. I'll try at home tonight.

Quoted: You may not have had the bolt fully closed on the rounds that didn't go bang.  Its possible that the hammer energy was spent closing the bolt/carrier that last little bit, for either the drag on the bolt carrier from the magazine seems to be more that the little pistol recoil spring can overcome, or the carrier is bouncing off the breachface (bolt-bounce) and the spring isn't enough to push it fully back into battery due to mag drag or even gas tube drag. The next time it happens, press the F/A to see if the carrier moves forward the slightest bit. My experience with the pistol recoil springs is that they shorten very quickly. Cheers, Otto ETA: I posted a longer description of what you may be experiencing here.

Quite true.... I didn't check every time it cycled if the bolt was closed using the F-A.  I just made sure it was well oiled.  And the spring did look a lot more "used" after the few rounds.  But what people say about the "pistol buffer set up" seems true... it has more problems then their "rifle" counter parts.  At next chance, I may get different buffer tube set up.

A new tube is on its way........  will let all know how it runs with it.

Kaliburz,

How is the forend weight with that front end?  I, like Matt_B, have been debating 10.5" vs. 7.5" barrel length.  My main concern with the 10.5" is that it would be pretty forend heavy for even a 2 hand hold, especially with only that dinky pistol buffer to counter balance it.

Or to put it another way, can you hold it out one handed like a pistol and hit anything other than the bad guys kneecaps?

Ditto on the weight question, and where is the center of gravity give or take?  My guess is right about the center of the magwell?

Dawg

Well, the weight isn't so bad.  I can actually try to hold it w/ just the pistol grip    But that is me.  Center of gravity for this long beast seems to be front of the handguard.  You have to remember, the buffer tube IS all steel.....so it sort of adds a counter weight affect.



Well, update on the misfiring.  The entry buffer/tube is here, but I want to try a stronger recoil spring for the pistol tube.  Someone suggested/infered that the spring is similar to a 1911 recoil spring, only longer.  So, after some digging around w/ my 1911, yup...they are "similar".  I picked up a 22lb spring (Wolff) froma local shop.  It has a lot more recoil stoping power (just pulling back on CH), but it's way too short (stanard 1911 length) and doesn't transmit it all the way to close.  So I ordered a Wolff 1911 "long slide" spring.... the first and second strongest they have.  Says they can't rate them due to their "must be fitted" instructions.  Hope fulley it is strong and long enough.

The shop had other springs, but they were listed as bolt rifle firing pin springs.  They "looked" like they would work......but I guess it would not be "springy" enough to allow the bolt/carrier to open all the way.

I'll give an update when the springs get here (hopefully by late this week, early next week).

Are you going to use it for CCW?

Quoted: Are you going to use it for CCW?

If I had a duster or trench coat.........

kaliburz


  let me know how the spring works out for ya, i have the same kit on the way

Quoted: kaliburz   let me know how the spring works out for ya, i have the same kit on the way

11:45am - I just installed the Wolff spring.......


The 1911 long slide Wolf spring arrived 11:20am.  Upon opening the package, I KNEW I had to cut it to fit.  The length of both springs (#1, #2) was over 12" long.  I would say 12 3/4" or 13" long.... I was in a hurry, so I didn't take pics or do a accurate measure.  THERE IS ENOUGH THERE FOR YOU TO PLAY WITH!!!!

Any how, the factory Model 1 spring is about 7.5" long.  Mine, used, is closer to 7".  With the original installed, no cap, it stuck out about 1.5-2" above the back of the buffer tube.  (The factory spring would not even send the cap flying if I unscrewed it.  It just sat there.)  I cut the new long slide spring at 8-8.5" long.  This gives about 3-3.5" sticking out of the back end.  Getting the unit together was "fun", but do-able.  The spring is now under compression all the time, like the rifle units.  The carrier, if I recall, could be pulled all the way back (I didn't try to lock it open).  The force to pull it was much greater then before, but not too excessive.

I guaged the force the spring had in a non scientific method.  With the hammer cocked, I took my thumb and pushed on the carrier through the ejection port to see how much force was required to move it.  I did the same on my full sized spring and buffered Cavalary Arms Cav 15.  The force was similar.  Got lucky I guess.  I didn't adjust the spring after install.

I will bring a set of cutters to trim the spring if needed, if it won't cycle.  I'm sure that it will be fine... (all based on the thumb test).....

I will go try this thing out this afternoon/evening.  Report on fuction to come this evening....

I hope it works for you man, cause just about everyone with an AR pistol has this problem...  We'll all be greatfull if you com up with a fix!

keep us posted

Well, what can I say.  You will need a good set of cutters.....and a strong grip to cut it.  You might destroy a pair of cheap cutters since the spring is *good materal*.

IT WORKED!!!!



Revised fitting of spring

Well, I read the instructions on the Wolf 1911 long slide spring.  And it made sence.  It says to cut the spring enough so that it doesn't "bunch up", aka-compress solid.  That idea made sence.

The spring needed trimming out in the field.  But not because it could not eject.  It wouldn't hold open, as the the spring was too long the way I cut it originally.  I was fully compressing before the carrier was past the hold open.

This is what I did- and this method is much easier to do then "measure the spring" or "counting coils".  Trim the spring just enough so that you can pull the bolt/carrier back and engage the bolt hold open.  That is what I did and it seemed fine.  I'll admit that the spring might be compressed still, but there is enough *push* of the spring to fully close the carrier/bolt assembly.  This is a Wolff spring, so it should do much better then the spring w/ the kit.


I fired about 110 rounds through the pistol w/out a problem related to the spring.  Only issue was one dud round, put it in twice to fire, no good.  Primer issue.  I used Federal ammo (Lake City brassed) and that other Russian brand, the one w/ the bear on the box.  Running the pistol w/ that many rounds, the spring will still pop the cap off if you don't watch it.  It takes a push to get the cap on, which, in my opinion is good.





I recommend, if people order, to get two springs, maybe three.  I don't know how long the spring will last.  The spring was $9.00 each, plus shipping.  I guess this is a cheaper fix then modifing/making a new recoil system.

Now, we need someone else to confirm this by doing the same thing......

A side note on history here.......


As you can see, my registration here on this site was January of 2001.  On the "original" site, it was either November or Dec of 1999.  Any how, back in the day, I came to AR15.com to inquire on an AR pistol.  I was green back then, knew nothing of the details of the 1994 ban.  I was quickly educated and became mad since I was still young when the ban passed.  I was one of the first of "victims" of the 1994 Ban.... as something that I would eventually want later in life was "banned".  I was not happy w/ the post ban pistol available.

Well, I made it a personal goal to build a (post ban leagel) pistol.  Unfortunately, the amount of money that one could sink into such a project was quite stagering.....so, the idea was put on hold.

I have come full circle now..... the goal of owning an *fuctional* AR pistol (and not paying up the nose for it) has been realized......

Kaliburz:

First - congrats! I have been following all the threads on AR pistol builds hoping someone would figure this problem out.

I am about ready to purchase everything to build my AR pistol, but I was becoming discouraged with the buffer issues. Would you mind sharing where to purcahse the new spring you used. And do you have any type of part number?

Also - aren't you using the Model 1 kit? If so, I am sure that the buffer assembly is the same on all of their pistols, could you share the static (that is, out of gun and non-compressed) spring length? I am sure that it would help us all in initially gauging ours.

Thanks,
Jason

Quoted: Kaliburz: First - congrats! I have been following all the threads on AR pistol builds hoping someone would figure this problem out. I am about ready to purchase everything to build my AR pistol, but I was becoming discouraged with the buffer issues. Would you mind sharing where to purcahse the new spring you used. And do you have any type of part number?

I purchased it directly from Wolff springs.  Their site link
The spring part is a 1911 long slide spring.  Clock on "semi auto" on their page, then click on "Colt" and finally scroll down till you see the long side section.

The number is : 13301  
Description: 1911 Long Slide recoil spring #1 (the strongest, don't ask how many pounds, as Wolff them self state it can't be rated since it is a fit-in part).

I also ordered 13302 (2nd strongest, in case I had ejection issues.... no problem, so I have an extra slightly weaker spring....)

Also - aren't you using the Model 1 kit? If so, I am sure that the buffer assembly is the same on all of their pistols, could you share the static (that is, out of gun and non-compressed) spring length? I am sure that it would help us all in initially gauging ours. Thanks, Jason

Yes, it is a Model 1 Sales pistol kit.  It is a 10 or 11" barreled upper.

Well, the non-compressed length is a guess.  I never measured it before I tried the assembled weopon.  It's possible the stock spring became shorter the first time I took it out.  I would say about 7.5" possibly 8" static length.  IIRC, someone else said it was 7.5", as they measured their spring "new".

And the new Wolff spring, I fitted it by trimming just enough so that I could use the hold open.  I can't give you a lengh in inchs as of now (don't have pistol right now at the keyboard) plus, it might have shortened.  I could count the coils......

Ok, I'll try your wolff spring idea, and see if it works for me too.
The 22# spring that I was told to try by model 1 (who I believe knows this flaw but readily sells the kits without reservation in thier non-functioning state) worked for 10 rounds and then went back to doing the same thing again, Maybe it finally got smashed down to non-functioning size and pressure. oh and my spring applied only about a 1/2" of protruding pressure on the cap, so not really anything near what you describe.

I'll let you know what I end up with after the wolf springs arrive.
until then..... head.gif

Quoted: Ok, I'll try your wolff spring idea, and see if it works for me too. The 22# spring that I was told to try by model 1 (who I believe knows this flaw but readily sells the kits without reservation in thier non-functioning state) worked for 10 rounds and then went back to doing the same thing again, Maybe it finally got smashed down to non-functioning size and pressure. oh and my spring applied only about a 1/2" of protruding pressure on the cap, so not really anything near what you describe. I'll let you know what I end up with after the wolf springs arrive. until then.....

In regards to the red- don't you just love big business.  I didn't even call them.  I figured that a kit, any kit, it is user beware.  When someone stated in a thread post that it looked like a 1911 spring, I did a quick check w/ my Para Ord. spring... a match..sorta.

Like you, I too purchased a standard length 1911 recoil spring in 24 pound rating.  I was going to originally try that today, but the Wolff spring showed up at noon- so I removed it.

I loaded a 20 round mag, and kept on shooting, then "click".  I thought "uh oh", but it turned out that I ran out of ammo (and the mag had a weak spring for the hold open).

I'm glad that I can help out.  This is a cheaper fix then replacing the entire recoil system.

Yes, I will likely do the same (will order as soon as I am done posting)
The one thing that intrigued me about the car buffer approach (but also added a measure of fear) was the ability to switch back quickly to a rifle [AFTER changing the upper to a 16"+ version].  My gut says this would be too close to having a stock on the gun (SBR, in a non SBR state, etc...) for some legal interpreters.

I know there have been some posts regarding this, but I don't think they ever came to a conclusion or a definite legal opinion.

Thanks for the help

so i guess i will also order one

Spring details.....

Okay, some of you want to know the length of the spring.  Mind you, this is a "used" condition of the spring, as of now, with 110 rounds through it.

Length: appx. 7"  closer to 6 13/16"
Portion sticking out of buffer tube w/ guide rod on, but w/out cap on: 1 1/2"

One might have to cut one or two coils off that length.  One variable to keep in mind is how much buffer tube is actually screwed into the lower.  Mine is about half, if not more.  Others could vary....

So, from my original spring, I cut off about 1 1/2" in the feild, as I orginally started w/ about 8-8 1/2".

Accuracy

I didn't use a paper for long range or a rest, but the upper seemed accurate enough.  I was resting it on top of a bag and targetting something about 100yds away and I was hitting it.  Did a long range target, say 300yds+ and it was close (yes, yes, close is for horse shoes and granades).

so how long did it take for your spring to arrive, i ordered mine today on the net

Quoted: so how long did it take for your spring to arrive, i ordered mine today on the net

Well, the "check book" (used debit card) was recorded being ordered the 4th (so I'm guessing evening of the 3rd) and it arrived by lunch on the 9th.

I'm in WA and Wolff springs is out of PA.  But I paid for priority mail option.  Depends on the shipping method I would say....(if standard snail mail was offered, I missed it).

i ordered mine priority also

Quoted: Spring details..... Okay, some of you want to know the length of the spring.  Mind you, this is a "used" condition of the spring, as of now, with 110 rounds through it. Length: appx. 7"  closer to 6 13/16" Portion sticking out of buffer tube w/ guide rod on, but w/out cap on: 1 1/2" One might have to cut one or two coils off that length.  One variable to keep in mind is how much buffer tube is actually screwed into the lower.  Mine is about half, if not more.  Others could vary.... So, from my original spring, I cut off about 1 1/2" in the feild, as I orginally started w/ about 8-8 1/2".

Good job working on the spring.

FYI, Standard length 1911 springs come in a variety of weights...and are 7 inches long to start with, so NO CUTTING would have been needed.
I would still play with a range of weights, and find out SPECIFICALLY which weight would cause short stroking(too many pounds), and which would cause excessively violent ejection(not enough pounds)...then pick one in the middle.

OR, determine what is the stiffest spring you can reliably use(i.e. bolt locks back when empty, EVERYTIME) with a downloaded 5.56 version like white box winnie, then you should be OK with full NATO loads.  HTH.

Paladin

DANG, you guys ALMOST have me wanting to put my Arf pistola back together...except it now has a 3# RRA trigger in the lower, she'd be a bump firing bullet hose for sure

Quoted: SNIP, SNIP Good job working on the spring. FYI, Standard length 1911 springs come in a variety of weights...and are 7 inches long to start with, so NO CUTTING would have been needed. I would still play with a range of weights, and find out SPECIFICALLY which weight would cause short stroking(too many pounds), and which would cause excessively violent ejection(not enough pounds)...then pick one in the middle. OR, determine what is the stiffest spring you can reliably use(i.e. bolt locks back when empty, EVERYTIME) with a downloaded 5.56 version like white box winnie, then you should be OK with full NATO loads.  HTH. Paladin DANG, you guys ALMOST have me wanting to put my Arf pistola back together...except it now has a 3# RRA trigger in the lower, she'd be a bump firing bullet hose for sure

In regards to the purple-
I remeasured the spring I purchased at the local gun shop.  Package says Wolff spring 26lb for Colt 1911/1911A1, 1991, Gov't, MKIV & Gold Cup models.  Now, unless I mis-understood, I thought this was for the full sized 5" barreled guns.  I remeasured it and the spring in the package is 5 5/8" long.  And it is un-used.  My 9mm Para Ord has a 6 1/2" spring while my 45 Para has a 6".  And those springs are used.

I suppose that it all depends on the wire thickness and number of coils per inch.  The stock M1S spring measures 6 7/8" in a used state.  But the wire looks much smaller then the Wolff 1911 long slide spring.

As stated, the *best* method to fit the spring, I think, is to cut it short enough so the carrier/bolt assembly clear the hold open.  

I just compared how far the stock M1S spring allows the bolt/carrier to go back w/ the fitted Wolff.  The stock M1S is allows it to go back farther approx. 1/8".  I probably have to cut one more coil off of the Wolff spring so that the carrier/bolt assembly goes the same distance.  The Wolff spring might be 100% compressing as trimmed.

The way that the M1S recoil system works-by just looking at it- it is bascially is a full length guide rod 1911 system.  And when the carrier goes back, it practically bumps into the guide rod/cap.  The little incert that goes into the back of the bolt is about 1 1/2" long.  That spring is getting compressed into that little space... and I'm quite sure it is getting compressed 100%.

My bolt catch spring is very stiff.  I might have put the wrong spring in there .  Rounds ejected from the pistol were fairly close by, but not too far.... 3 to 4 feet to my right.  I can't say if it was kicking it behind, in front or dead over from me.  I was more interested in function testing then paying attention to where the spent cases landed.

As mentioned, there are variables to this.  It does not help that Wolff does not rate this spring in a *pounds* since it is a custom fit spring.  The directions for the 1911 fitting state that the spring is to be trimmed so that it is not compressed when the slide is locked back.  I think that it should be the same for this application, that it shouldn't be compressed when the bolt/carrier assembly is locked back..... oh well....    I just tinkered and got lucky I guess.

Noner stated in another thread that putting a used carrier helped in fuction using the stock spring.  But he also admitted that he sprayed it liberally w/ lube..... as did I, lots of gun oil.

Yup, I used a Bold and Bolt Carrier that had about 2K rounds through it, and doused in CLP...

it works... but still has some issues.

I still ended up buying the new spring... now its just a waiting game

-Jason

well, my pistol is as yet unfired, but when the wolf spring gets here i will install it and when i do i will put in a used bolt and carrier from a well worn ar15, we will see what happens then, i have 2000 rds of ammo to use to get this right

Quoted: well, my pistol is as yet unfired, but when the wolf spring gets here i will install it and when i do i will put in a used bolt and carrier from a well worn ar15, we will see what happens then, i have 2000 rds of ammo to use to get this right

try the new Bolt first... if you have 2k rounds, then you have plenty of time to break in the new one..

Hey Kalibur I'm in WA. also. I live near Puyallup.

I just got the M1S 7-1/2" pistol and shot it today. And the bolt would not close the last 1/4". I tried stretching the spring and it shrunk right back. It would function better with wolf over the Brass ammo I get from James @ the WAC show. So I also will be getting some of those springs. Sure glad I stumbled across this thread this AM.

here is my build, got a couple lowers from cmmg, one was papered as a pistol, made by lar grizzly
the lower was excellent, fits great, looks great, thanks cmmg

now if that wolf sprng would show up....

avengeusa,

Is that a 10 1/4" upper?





I picked up some more ammo and I plan to test the pistol more.  I figure another 100-200 rounds to see how the spring holds up....  Unfortunately, I'm not sure when I'll get out to do some testing.

yup. 10.25, next will be a 7.5

How loud is that 10 1/4" barrel compared to your stnadard 16"?  

As much as I keep thinking about doing a 7.5" pistol I still wonder if it will end up being an expensive "Gee Whiz" toy that never gets used, i.e. maybe my money would be better spent on a 20" flattop. Hmmm....

it should be very loud, and if it aint accurate, or you miss, you will still set the target on fire with the flame from the barrel

I bet when Troy, Tatjana, and Brouhaha try to dispel the myth of 'knockdown power' they never take the muzzle blast of a 7.5" barrel into consideration!

update on my 10.5 pistol


i am still waiting for the wolf spring that i ordered priority mail this weekend, should have had it already

i was noticing the rough parkerising in  the internal surfaces of the gun such as the bolt/carrier ect, so i thought i would shoot it today to wear in some of the parts, but before i left i noticed i had some fine cut rubbing compound for auto paint use, i coated the bolt/carrier ect very liberally with the stuff and worked the action a hundred times or so, i took it apart and cleaned with carb clener, oiled and it worked very smoothly, so i took her to the range and thought i would see what would happen, i was expecting a lot of trouble since i have the spring that came with the kit still in the gun


100 rds, runs like a watch, new polymer wolf ammo, not bolt bounce fte's, or ftf's, accurate too 4 inches at 100 yards from a rest, it is easy to shoot the gun like you would do with a rifle, just rest the cheeck on the buffer tube and go for it, nose to the charging handle

i love it, big fire when it gets darker outside, i will do the 7.5 now

Quoted: update on my 10.5 pistol i am still waiting for the wolf spring that i ordered priority mail this weekend, should have had it already i was noticing the rough parkerising in  the internal surfaces of the gun such as the bolt/carrier ect, so i thought i would shoot it today to wear in some of the parts, but before i left i noticed i had some fine cut rubbing compound for auto paint use, i coated the bolt/carrier ect very liberally with the stuff and worked the action a hundred times or so, i took it apart and cleaned with carb clener, oiled and it worked very smoothly, so i took her to the range and thought i would see what would happen, i was expecting a lot of trouble since i have the spring that came with the kit still in the gun 100 rds, runs like a watch, new polymer wolf ammo, not bolt bounce fte's, or ftf's, accurate too 4 inches at 100 yards from a rest, it is easy to shoot the gun like you would do with a rifle, just rest the cheeck on the buffer tube and go for it, nose to the charging handle i love it, big fire when it gets darker outside, i will do the 7.5 now

Ah, so it is a break in issue.  Granted, one *SHOULDN'T* have to do that....  I think the stronger spring is the right thing to do.  But that is just me.

i am still waiting and will use the right spring when it arrives

i will be doing a 400 rd test today

i am bored and off work

Quoted: i am still waiting and will use the right spring when it arrives i will be doing a 400 rd test today i am bored and off work

And what are you doig on the computer....

400 round thest done, here are the results

easy headshots at 100 yards, shoot the puppy like a rifle, cheeck on the extension tube


0 malfunctions, works perfectly, 500 total rounds and no trouble whatsoever, and the new wolf ammo seems a lot cleaner than the old stuff, the gun really is not that dirty

ps, it looks like a flame thrower when you bumpfire it

Avengeusa -

I am about to build a 7.5" pistol and have a Trijicon Reflex II that I was going to put on it.  I figured at arms length the Reflex would be perfect, but after hearing you say to shoot it like a rifle with your cheek on the buffer tube, maybe I am better off mounting my compact ACOG on it.  What do you think?  Would an ACOG be cool or what?

MadDog

reflex for a 7.5


ps...

  you should have seen all the looks on all the officers faces when i took it in, it was in a duffelbag, it would not fit in a gun case for a pistola, but they registered it

avengeusa -

The Reflex II is the only sight I have laying around that I can use on the 7.5" because I ordered the upper as an A3 Flat Top and I am having Model 1 mill the sight tower, bayo lug, & sling swivel off of the gas block.  I have a skeletonized gas block just like it on my Varmint Rifle an like it's profile.  If I like shooting it with my cheek on the short buffer tube the way you suggest, I am going to get a spare closed cell foam sleeve like the one on my ACE Skeleton Stock and cut it down to fit over the Buffer Tube.

MadDog

Quoted: reflex for a 7.5 ps...   you should have seen all the looks on all the officers faces when i took it in, it was in a duffelbag, it would not fit in a gun case for a pistola, but they registered it

My 11" fits nicely in a tennis racket bag..... and that is regular sights and carry handle.

I ordered a pistol buffer kit from Model 1 about three weeks ago. I ordered a 7.5" pistol upper about a week later. It came in last night, it appears that they got my order completely right. What problems have I run into?

1. The charging handle kept binding. I could pull the bolt carrier out with my pinkie stuck in the end. If I used the CH, I couldn't move it. The CH could be pulled out easily. I compared it with a RRA CH after I noticed a shiny spot on top. There was a bump that was causing the gas tube and bolt to bind there. I was able to remove it with an emery board. Now it's slick.
2. It was tight going onto my RRA lower. Surprise! I was able to work that out with a nylon hammer and a piece of dowel, now it's okay.
3. It was tricky getting the endcap on without kinking the spring it wasn't too long, it was just tricky to thread the guide rod through the length of the spring. I figured out that I had to hold the bolt carrier halfway back with the CH and work it in slowly.

After I got all those problems figured out, I fired half a mag through it, enough to terrify my dog. It functioned fine. If you know anything about Warhammer 40k, it's definitely more dakka and more blasta.I was annointed by CLP and it was good.

it's definitely more dakka and more blasta.

 


BUHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Thats great!

Totally reminds me of 5 years ago being in Highschool, playing 40k with Punks and hearing them scream Ork war crys while  tossing the dice.

too bad I sold my Army to fund my AR......errrrr... wha?? nevermind I'm not that sorry, I figure I got a waay better deal in the end.

-Jason