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Posted: 10/11/2007 2:47:52 AM EDT
[#1]
Sweet. I've always wanted an ACOG but I can't afford one right now.
I didn't know they were made in Wixom... Thats only like 15 minutes from my house! 
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Posted: 10/11/2007 5:53:13 AM EDT
[#2]
How is it the smaller USMC bought 800,000 ACOGs, but the big Army only bought 135,000?
Also, what's the Army's version? TA31RCO like the Marines? |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 6:09:56 AM EDT
[#3]
The Army also just bought a bunch of Aimpoint 3x magnifiers. Those are probably for the regular troops since the ACOG's appear to be for designated marksmen.
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Posted: 10/11/2007 6:17:24 AM EDT
[#4]
The Army has appx 500,000 Aimpoints on soldiers guns, 163,000 of the new Comp M4's and with the potential for another 500,000 shortly.
The Army is -unlike the Marine Corps- using the ACO as a tool for certain members in the platoon. (The Marine Corps is unwisely using the RCO for all hands). Consequently, the Army will not need as many 4x telescopes. Make sense? |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 7:00:25 AM EDT
[#5]
I wish the marines did what the army is doing, acogs for the DMRs and aimpoints for the grunts.
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Posted: 10/11/2007 7:50:23 AM EDT
[#6]
Duffy...here is the info on the new Army ACOG.
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Posted: 10/11/2007 7:54:52 AM EDT
[#7]
So did the Marines in the class I took at Quantico last weekend. To a man they despised their ACOGs for anything within 50 yards. Complaints were that it was slow, that the ranging of the reticle didn't match the actual point of impact, that they needed to put a piece of rigger's tape over the fiber-optic to keep the reticle from blooming, and that eye-relief was way too short. One of the Marines had a bloody spot on his forehead from where the thing kept bonking him. I know, it's a 5.56, but when a 5.56 smacks you in the head 2000 times in three days, it's going to leave a mark. The ACOG on the M4 is the wrong answer. It's probably an excellent idea for a DMR. |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 8:06:11 AM EDT
[#8]
So true. Unfortunately, no one is willing to tell the emporer (Mattis) that his baby is ugly and overall, useless.
I have Marines in most of my classes (Most of my classes are for Marines). Universally, they hate the RCO. They all love a red dot. Gee- what a suprise..... |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 9:45:49 AM EDT
[#9]
Would the TA31 or possibly a TA33 with an Aimpoint T-1 mounted on top in a mount designed by Mr Larue not be the ideal combination? I have been thinking about going to that set up if Larue makes the appropriate mount for the T-1 and dropping my 1-4X variable to save weight and increase runtime. This way everyone has an Aimpoint and everyone has the ACOG too.
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Posted: 10/11/2007 9:50:29 AM EDT
[#10]
That'd be great....its a shame the gov't doesn't seem to like buying Larue stuff. |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 10:01:37 AM EDT
[#11]
No- it has not been so in my experience. A better solution would be an Aimpoint and a 3x magnifier.
Placing a red dot on top of the ACOG means that at close range you have to get your head off of the cheekweld- an iffy proposition. I know people who make it work. I also know people who dring scotch and milk. The ACOG is pretty much useless at 50yds and in. It is great at 300 yds. The fight is closer rather then farther, and the RDS is much easier to use then the RCO. |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 11:19:24 AM EDT
[#12]
It might be better to say the ACOG's strong point is 50 yards and out. A red dot with zero mag will be faster in the less than 50 yard range, but let's not pretend the ACOG is slow. At 50 yards or less, your using BAC, and it's still very fast and accurate. |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 11:54:31 AM EDT
[#13]
It's about the right equipment for the right environment. In another environment I have no doubt the ACOG has it's place (own one myself).
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Posted: 10/11/2007 11:55:37 AM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 10/11/2007 12:05:10 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 10/11/2007 12:07:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Gunfighter- I train people for a living. Mostly Mil. The Marines i work with despise- to a man- the RCO.
Let's look at this from a more useful perspective. The RCO requires training- a fair amount of it. It is not often given, and when so, sometimes incorrect- as was the case in CamPen last month. Within 50m, the RCO is at a disadvantage. I watched that (again) this week when a group of very skilled instructors- and some serious lifetakers- using RCO's were unable to keep up with others who mainly sported RDS. That you may shoot well with it is irrelevant. It is whether the L/Cpl can. The RCO POI states that before entering a structure, you should wait 10 minutes for the xxoptic xx(CORRECTION) eyes to acclimate to the dark as the reticle is faint. Terrific. Guidance in theatre is that it has to be re zeroed every 30 days. I own two. I shoot them, though not often as they do not fill the mission requirements as well as an Aimpoint, Short Dot, EOTech and possible other optics do. The Aimpoint is easier to teach. Easier to use, and fully capable out to the max realistic range of the M4A1, and further with the 3x magnifier. And it can do it for a whole lot less. The RCO would be more useful as issued one per Fire Team or one per squad. Re challenging anyone. I realize the the errornet is similar to beer balls. Cute, but i just spent 36 hours this past weekend shooting 2400rds of 5.56x45 ball doing exactly that. I'll stand by my statement, based on my experience. |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 12:15:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Aimpoint's new CompM4 just got a large government contract and is the best Sight they have ever produced.
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Posted: 10/11/2007 3:45:31 PM EDT
[#18]
Since I have both an Aimpoint and an ACOG and occasionally shoot a gun.. I feel semi qualified to have an opinion... But since Pat's opinion is spot on.. I won't bore anyone with it..
 If I had to chose ONE of them.. it would be the Aimpoint as it can do everything the ACOG can.. And Yes.. I know all about the BAC.. Hell.. I was shooting that way long before they had a name for that "concept" and yes the ACOG can be ran close up.. it's not easy to do.. and that waiting 10Mins so you can see your reticle... I'll pass... I'm happy to see my beloved Army is choosing the right tools for the right job and not trying to get a "Jack of all trades" optic issued to everyone...  Oh and Gunfighter.. I would love to here your experience & background.....since I already know Pat's...... |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 8:02:21 PM EDT
[#19]
I'm no math wiz, but I think that's a bunch. Thank you Mr. Rogers for passing along some real experience, there is a great need for that here. |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 8:05:17 PM EDT
[#20]
that'd be alot of dillos! |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 8:25:02 PM EDT
[#21]
+1 I'm curious which ACOG is the base for these M150s, and where they get issued? |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 10:08:03 PM EDT
[#22]
This is the perfect anecdote as to why this website is sometimes known as BARFCOM. 
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Posted: 10/11/2007 10:12:51 PM EDT
[#23]
i think they also just bought a town of aimpoint magnifiers.
I talked to my buddy in the marines and he said he liked the acog the best out of them all. price usually does mean the best...not always, but usually |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 11:00:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Theres some misinformation in this thread.
The Army doesn't only equip designated marksmen with ACOGs. I can say with 100% certainty that in the 82nd Airborne, we primarily issue out ACOGs to key leaders. That being anyone who is a team leader or higher in a dismounted infantry company. So the grunts who are going to be first in the door for the CQB, they are packing aimpoints. The mounted company I was in had zero ACOGs in the arms room. I'm an 11B, so infantry it what I do. I've used a few different optics in the last 4 years at work... aimpoint, EOtech, ACOG, M145 (that elcan piece of shit). By far my favorite was the EOtech. When I was joe rifleman I would have killed for one of those new 4x magnifiers for my EOtech... best of both worlds. I've never cared for the aimpoint.. the dot is too small, I'm slow to find it during CQB. I used the ACOG a few times for reflexive fire and qualifying. Its great for longer shots, but close in, I didn't like it. The M145 is pure dogshit... I would have killed for an EOtech or ACOG on my SAW. I think an EOtech 557 with a magnifier on a flip-to-side mount is the best option out there. You get the close in speed of the EOtech, with the zoom and BDC of the ACOG. |
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Posted: 10/11/2007 11:38:08 PM EDT
[#25]
I am an elite member of the Chairborne Rangers.
 I have an EOTech 553 and an ACOG. FWIW, the EOTech is what's on my homeland security rifle. |
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Posted: 10/12/2007 3:26:59 AM EDT
[#26]
Sorry Mr. Green Jeans, somebody recently described a large quantity as a "metric sh*t ton" and I couldn't resist using it in a proper sentence.
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Posted: 10/12/2007 3:37:39 AM EDT
[#27]
Dskeet- the EO has a 1 moa dot, and the M68 (same designator for the Comp M2, Comp M3 and Comp M4) all have 2moa or 4 moa dots.
Just FYI... I agree on the Elcan. |
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Posted: 10/12/2007 8:12:40 AM EDT
[#28]
On my Back up LMT M4 I have a 551 eotech
3 times now I have found it DEAD with new batts in it Its a little over a year old must be a SLOW DRAIN If I was Mil or LEO I wouldnt buy Eotech Im glad my main go LMT M4 has a AIMPOINT wich has ran 100% for over 7 years |
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Posted: 10/12/2007 8:30:54 AM EDT
[#29]
I think that was me in the UnderArmor thread. Now I'm goint to start telling all the other shooters in my unit that "the guys at Larue have used some of my ideas". I'm not gonna add any detail, just leave it there. In fairness, the metric shit ton is classic old school NCO speak. |
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Posted: 10/12/2007 1:47:13 PM EDT
[#30]
I know there is an EOtech that just has a 1moa dot, but every one I have seen used in the Army had the reticle with the 1moa dot and a big ass ring around it. The ring makes for a crazy fast sight during CQB. I also like the smaller dot because its more precise for long range shots. IMO, this sight is the best of both worlds. |
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Posted: 10/12/2007 2:15:48 PM EDT
[#31]
That "big ass ring" is 65moa.
I can shoot the EO pretty well. I don't use them because of poor battery life, leaky battery boxes/ corrosion, hard to reach controls and other problems. The Aimpoint works better for me, but in the end, you have to choose what works better for you. Drive on! |
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Posted: 10/13/2007 1:34:39 PM EDT
[#32]
.
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Posted: 10/13/2007 8:18:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Anyone know that the base model it is they're ordering for the RCO contract? Would like to pick up one of those laser filters, hope they sell them to the public.
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Posted: 10/13/2007 8:28:36 PM EDT
[#34]
BIG PLUS #1 AIMPOINT +M4 = AWESOME |
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Posted: 10/13/2007 8:31:00 PM EDT
[#35]
+1 THATS ALL FOLKS
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Posted: 10/16/2007 11:02:28 PM EDT
[#36]
I have been issued an RCO for the last two years, for a while I had an M16A4 with the A4 RCO and for the last 9 months, I've had an M4 with an M4 RCO. I have taken part in a fair ammount of EMP shoots and other close range/CQB type shooting and longer range unknown distance work. Before this I had an A4 with iron sights for about a year, and was able to shoot it a fair amount as well. In my private life, I have an M4forgy with an aimpoint. Where I am going with all of this, is I agree that the aimpoint is king for the close fight, but I have become pretty familiar with the RCO at contact distances and find it almost as fast. Frankly, I prefer the RCO for my current mission. I think a mix of them in a squad would be best. When I get back from Iraq I will be buying a ACOG for my M4forgy.
mrf2 |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 4:15:32 AM EDT
[#37]
I disagree. An ACOG can be the difference between shooting a guy with a shovel thinking he has a RPG, and positive ID. It gives every member of the squad the ability to ID targets. Even close in, you might want that extra little zoom to check something that doesnt seem right on the roadside on a roof, in a window etc, while still keeping your muzzle up. The slightly slower use at close ranges is far more than made up for by the overall utility of the ACOG. I never heard any complaints from guys in my unit about the ACOG, and we were in a lot of close in house to house fighting. I myself would much rather an ACOG than any red dot for general use. Sure I love my aimpoint on my SBR, but if I could only have one gun, it would have the ACOG. I think the Marines made the right choice for the Marines. |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 9:53:43 AM EDT
[#38]
Rusted Ace
That's a good point, but I believe that is an byproduct of a too restrictive ROE. Some day we will be in a shooting war where you will not have to positvely ID the bad guy three times over with 2 radio calls to higher before receiving permisson to fire by Higher... Does'nt anyone use Binos anymore.... With DRM's in each squad. why does everyone need magnafied optics? |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 11:52:25 AM EDT
[#39]
I saw it happening, and I talked to the guy. So did a bunch of other people, at least one of whom has already posted on this thread, whose name I'm not going to drop for fear of breaking some rule of netiquette. You can put the flag away. I'm not making it up. Secondly, I don't dislike or like the ACOG. I like my Aimpoint, but merely wanted to relate something that I had just come across a few days before while training with some vastly more experienced shooters. As to your other points - I'm not an HSLD guy, and don't claim to be. Occasionally I meet a few, and the ones I met two weeks ago, and who expressed an opinion on the matter, did not like their ACOGs as an all-around optic. All the regular limitations of small sample size and limited experience apply. Everyone agrees that it is a good optic, and that it has a role. My only point is that it is not the one-size fits all solution that the USMC brass have decided it is, and it seems that you and I, and the Army, for that matter, agree. |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 11:59:49 AM EDT
[#40]
My TA31F used to pop me in the shooting glasses.
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Posted: 10/17/2007 12:33:06 PM EDT
[#41]
Order ! Order !
 In my humble opinion, it could have had a much nicer picatinny-to-optic interface mounted to it. ML |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 1:34:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Harv24, We did not have to ID a guy 3 times and make two radio calls just to take a shot. BUT I sure as hell do not want to shoot a Civilian holding a shovel. The current ROE has changed some but I gaurentee you if one of my DM's sees a bad guy with an RPG through his ACOG and he asks me for permission or to call it up, He would not be a DM for me anymore. On the reverse, If one of my guys with an Aimpoint shoots a Civilian with a shovel, all hell will break loose, plus he has to live with that. That has nothing to do with a restrictive ROE. For what its worth this IS a shooting war and to asume that we may some day be engaged n a war where positive ID of the enemy wll not be necessary is rediculous. Binos are too slow a transition unless you are stationary. Everyone should have the ability to positively ID their target, that is the most basic fundamental of shooting whether it be target, Self defense, or during War. Please tell me I am misinterpreting what you meant there. Right?????? cp |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 1:43:14 PM EDT
[#43]
I wasn't calling you a liar, just thought you were exagerating some. Do you know how many times I have read someone on this board post that "they saw or know" someone who hated their ACOG because the eye relief was so short the scope kept "biting" them or hitting them in the Eye? Like Bradd said; When wearing Goggles or shooting glass it will occasionally happen, but thats different. I personally have never seen it happen or even heard anyone complain about that except on this board. I agree with you, It is not a one size fits all optic, but it is vastly more usable and liked by troops than what it appears by reading this thread. As with anything some will like some will ot, just like Glocks. Now, No matter what optic you buy just make sure you get a LaRue Mount, Right Mark? Actually I have been using a TR21R alot latey and very much like the versatility of a variable optic. For a medium range optic it works very very nice and has great eye relief. |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 2:00:08 PM EDT
[#44]
I just sent a bunch of NSNs over to Afghanistan for the Army. They were desparate for them. Bomber PS I'm an Aimpoint guy myself. Cannot stand the eye relief and associated tunnel vision of ACOGS. |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 2:01:36 PM EDT
[#45]
My stars, now there's some good advise !! 
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Posted: 10/17/2007 2:05:39 PM EDT
[#46]
tunnel vision? 4x32 ACOGs probably have the best FOV of all 4X scopes!
 If the USMC and Army want a do it all scope, they should start issuing S&B Short Dots. |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 2:07:31 PM EDT
[#47]
The context of this conversation RE ACOG limitations has been close in work and as a consequence, I'm talking about periphial (sp) vision. |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 2:09:58 PM EDT
[#48]
I use ACOGs with both eyes open, I guess peripheral vision isn't an issue for me.
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Posted: 10/17/2007 2:10:54 PM EDT
[#49]
Either way, my hat's way off to them Trij boys.
Heck, I bet the pile of paper they submitted just for that particular solicitation alone must have weighed-in at a 100+ pounds.  ML |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 2:12:34 PM EDT
[#50]
Glad you can, cause I can't so hence I stated my OPINION like I did, but then again this is barfcom and everyone has to try and redicule the next person. Seeking to understand is better than seeking to be understood. FWIW |
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