User Panel
Thank you Victor. This is the review that I (no doubt others) have been waiting for. Muchos gracias.
Let us know how she shoots! |
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Cool
One of the best (nah, it is the best) DR pics and review so far How's the FOV? Is it as good as the 4x32 ACOGs? |
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Your welcome Chris, will get out later in the week to shoot.
Duffy, FOV is a 1/2 deg less at 6.5deg for the DR vs. 7.0deg for the ACOG 4x32. |
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Ok so I wonder if the point of impact calibrated into the scope will be different than intended from a M4 14.5 1/7 twist than it would with a 20" 1/9 .
If that made any sense? Would they not be essentially a miscalibrated scope/rifle on anything other than an 14.5 1/7? I used to have the old Elcan and without comparing it to the acog as I havent owned one of them, It is definetly an "AWESOME" optic. The glass is so clear, the accuracy is so tight. It is just a pleasurable optic. I also wonder?? Is this scope useable without the lit reticle? Meaning does the illumination reticle have to be operable for the scope to work correctly? Will the reticle work un-illuminated? Seriously considering this scope. |
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Excellent post. I was seriously considering this optic, but based on the NV performance it's moved to a "maybe latter".
thanks for a great post. |
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Not the magnification lever, the mounting levers are supposed to be switched.
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Why are these better on the other side?? |
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Because it makes more room for the lever that actuates the zoom feature and when not looking its possible to get confused and try to throw the wrong lever.
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Thanks for the quick answer Devl. One more if you can. Is this scope BDC calibrated for a 14.5 bbl w/ a 1/7 twist 62gr.??? And if so will not the POI be unmatched with any other combination? Hope this doesnt sound like a dumb question. But im dumb.. lol |
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Oh... that doesn't make sense to me. Mounting levers should be on your left, and it's a bit more difficult to switch the mag power with your support hand... IMO. *shrug* |
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Yes but if you check the ACOG BDC calibration thread you will find its not that far off for other rounds and barrel lengths. I am hoping they release a .308 calibrated version so it will match up with 75 grain 5.56 TAP from my barrel for example.
Even if you shoot heavy loads with this optic you are still going to find you can learn how far off it is at each mark or what the actual range is instead of what it tells you with some testing. Remeber this is calibrated for a certain temperature and altitude too so its not even perfect with its recceomended barrel length and ammo type in all conditions. Get to know your own rifle hold offs for your ammo and just adapt IMO. I know from experience I wont be doing any shooting from over 300 yards with 5.56 and an under 20" barrel anyway. The wind does horrible thigs to the .223 round and I cant see that well with a 4X optic at 400 and up to do any real precision shooting anyway. How much 400+ yard shooting do you currently do with your carbine? Most people try out their BDC one or twice then shoot at 300 yards and under pretty much all the time anyway. |
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W/ my old colt Hbar 20" and the older model Elcan I once put a 5 rd group on a stop sign at 800 meters. On a cold crisp night with no wind. No BS I sold off the rifle and Elcan scope for a carbine Bushy bbl. and havent known accuracy even remotely close since. |
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Im liking the looks of this thing. I hope I get to shoot someone else's and try it before I have to buy my own!!! Thanks to all of you for the info.
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Wish we lived closer than our two ocean borders!!! My DR staying on my 6.8 for now! |
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Yeah, I understand that, but when I've tried doing this, my rifle feels awfully unbalanced and tips foward and feels really clumsy, and if I were to have a M203 attached (like I'd ever re-up... lol) it would be impractical, if not impossible. Switching from 1x/4x and back is difficult unless you're in a supported position. And, if it were safe enough or time to switch magnification, I don't think removing your hand from the firing position for one second would really be a concern.
All they would need to do is re-engineer the lever. Just make an identical mirror lever for the opposite side, as the actuating optical element has an axis that is centerline to the body of the scope.
Yeah, you're right about that. I've never particularly been a fan of the ACOG line though. Just my personal preference though. |
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Excellent review Vic. I see you have good reasons for NOT RETURNING MY CALLS!!! Sorry dude...had to bust your chops. I am thankful for this review for two reasons:
1) you saved me a bunch of money and 2) bolstered my confidence in my ACOG TA11F w/Progressive Machine lense cap This is really a top notch setup for me. As with all ACOGs it takes a little getting used to, but once you're on it.....you're on it! It simple really. Want CQB: lense cap up. Want 4X: lense cap down. Can't downplay Elcans too much though. They are top of the line. Regards- Freddy |
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Darn! Psssst, call me tomorrow!! |
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Good question Xeno : ) Also a question for Devl. Are you sure that Elcan is expected to do improvements to this optic in a subsequent release? or is this speculation? Thanks ST |
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Elcan stated they would only be offering the optic in a single configuration and BDC initially. It will be the same as their miliary production unit. That unit has not been finalised. However the unit pictured is their latest rendition. So while its semi speculation the above IS the latest rendition but perhaps not what they will actually end up with as a final product. When I asked they said they had no plans to produce a unit with black anodisation either.
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what is a progressive Machine lense cap and how is it giving you CQB? |
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By blocking the objective lens, the ACOG can be used like a red dot sight in short distances.
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I do not have a 22 in my grasps at the moment, but indeed, I would love to try this out. In regards to the illuminated reticle, I found the lowest setting was a bit too bright for my Gen 3 PVS-14. The 2nd setting was out of the question due to its brightness. Elcan claims 2 NV settings, each the for the dot and reticle. Realistically it seems with a modern Gen 3 device, only the 1st NV settings for each is really applicable. Nowadays, the most effective set up I work with is what you propose....IR OR visible laser on the weapon while employing a head mounted NOD is just too easy and one feels like there staring in a video game! |
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And it has a different POA/POI than the scope when magnified. I dont find that acceptable. |
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So close but so far,with the 4moa dot at 4X Covering 8inch at 200yds is bad enough but 12inch at 300yds, dangit.Only good for those who need a people shooter only.
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You must be talking about the ACOG? |
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Please refrain from making statements like this and ask questions instead, it would be easier to address. The ACOG has a 4 MOA donut... its 1 MOA thick with a 2 MOA hole in the middle, I dont find it to obsure anything really. At 300 yards you use NO part of the donut as an aiming point, you use the BDC ladder. The Elcan Specter has a 1.5 MOA dot at 4X. You also use NO part of the dot for aiming at 300 yards. [smart ass mode]There is this phenomenon where gravity pulls on the bullet and it strikes lower than your 100 yards zero... under the illuminated portion of the reticle/dot/donut. [/smart ass mode] |
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I thought it was 6MOA at 4x (from first post/review) for the Spectre DR?
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Indeed that is what the DR is in Edited to add....Typo, the DR is 1.5 MOA at 4X and 6 MOA at 1x! My error |
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I am a bit confused then. How is it 6 MOA at 4X and 1.5 MOA at 1X? How does that work exactly? In my mind it is either going to cover the same MOA or 4 times less at 4X, not 4 times more. If the dot grows with magnification the MOA has not changed (FFP) and if it does not then its 4 times smaller (RFP). I dont see how the reticle grows to 16 times its original size to become 4 times greater MOA size.
Victor, I am not noticing the dot becoming 16 times larger in your pics, is that what you are seeing as you switch to 4X? I know pics can be deceiving but I thought that would be obvious. In the pics its fairly clear the cross hairs and BDC are calibrated for 4X and unusable at 1X as its RFP. The dot also appears so stay the same size and shrink realtive to the back ground like the crosshairs, which would be RFP. That would mean 6 MOA 1X and 1.5 MOA 4X coverage if those are indeed the correct numbers. You simply made a typo and reversed the MOA coverage. |
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Great review Victor! I got the chance to play with the DR at Shot and I love this optic. But, I've been waiting for range reports before I pull the trigger myself.
I was under the impression that you could not use your BUIS looking through this optic. I remember someone who claimed to be a rep or employee for Elcan who claimed that this would not work and that removal of the optic would be required. True or not true? If this is true, having access to your ARMS is irrelivent. Has anyone spent any range time with one of these yet? I've heard rumors of a shift in POI/POA between magnifications. Is it really less then 1/2moa? |
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Indeed, my error!! It was a typo....The 4x magnification has a 1.5 MOA dot and the 1x has a 6 MOA dot!!! I'll go fix the pg. one info....Thanks for the catch!!!! |
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At 1x I can see my BUIS well. The manual also states "The long eye relief facilitates use with most back up iron sights." Funny I actually read the manual on something for once! hehe As for the POI and POA, going out this weekend for a shoot! |
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The one thing I noticed about this, is how CRITICAL eye relilef and positioning is at 1X. If you are even a SLIGHT bit off, you see nothing but black. If you are used to the more forgiving nature of the aimpoint or eotech, this takes some getting used to.
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Indeed eye relief is a bit more critical of course vs. an EO or AP, but at 1x you can still use both eye's open and ER is not as critical as in the 4x mode it seems. Just my personal observation thus far. |
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Hi Victor
Do you have pics of the red-dot lit up during day time both on 1x and 4x ? How easy is the magnification lever to catch in a hurry? Looking for a 3gun scope and this once again might be it. Thanks Edit to spell the Man`s name right! |
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Finn, Here is a 1x and 4x with the dot lit with a decent background for the camera. As for the mag latch, I guess this is subjective sorta speak. I find no issue flipping the latch quickly while others do. Muscle memory, practice and training go a long way in working out many issues I feel. Some folks suggest the throw levers be moved to the other side to rid any possible obstacles of the lever. I believe Elcan is working this posibililty with the next mod of the sight I'm told. Hope this helps. |
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Had several folk write me to ask how bright is the dot compared to the EO and AP? I feel the dot on the brigtest days with a bright background is JUST a tad under the brightest intensity of the AP. I have found no problems with the DR's intensity on birght sunny days.
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Victor and Xenophobe, can you reconcile these comments?
I read this as "not bright enough to use as an Aimpoint during the day" but maybe Xeno was talking about night use? --
But I read this as "bright enough to use as an Aimpoint":
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I can't answer for Xenophobe but my original night vision comments have not changed....
The 1st NV dot setting was fine for my Gen 3 device, but could be washed out with an illuminator of some sort. Notice here a Gen 3 NVD. On the 2nd dot setting, my NOD bloomed. If one were to use a Gen 2 NVD, the dot probably would not bloom. As for the illuminated reticle...Any time I can actually see a dot or reticle lit unaided naked eye in a dark room, usually spells "way too bright for a Gen 3 device." I found the reticle a bit too bright at the lowest setting for my NOD, (i.e. I could see the lowest setting with my unaided eye). The lowest setting reticle slightly bloomed my NOD. (But once again remember, a Gen 2 device probably would serve well for this reticle at the lowest setting). I would agree with Xenophone that the reticle is designed for night use, BUT ONLY for unaided eye's without the use of a NOD. I feel the lowest reticle setting should be turned down a tiny smudge for NV use and the highest setting turned up a smudge for twilight use, (what Xeno stated for the highest setting). I think Elcan strived for a happy balance on the highest reticle setting for unaided eye night use without washing out the rest of the image. They're close! I don't mean to be splitting hairs, but in the NV world, you have to be spot on in regards to brightness levels. EO and AP did it well with numerous NV settings, Elcan only has two advertised NV settings for the dot and reticle. In reality though IMHO only one is in working order with a Gen 3 device, and that is with the lowest setting dot. Also keep in mind that I highly doubt Elcan would have designed this unit with a Gen 2 device in mind. 90%+ of all active military gear out there is Gen 3 nowadays. Hope this helps. Vic |
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Your confusion comes from one person talking about the illuminated crosshairs and another talking about the dot. |
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Thank you! I'm not a NV guy so I only care about whether the dot is Aimpoint-bright for day use.
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One question though. I have a fixed front sight on my ar which i use to co-witness with my red dot. In 4x view will the front sight block my view as much or will it not be seen? I am going to remove the front sight in the future.
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