Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Page AR-15 » Optics, Mounts, and Sights
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 8/6/2006 3:29:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2006 3:57:09 PM EDT
[#1]
Thank you Victor. This is the review that I (no doubt others) have been waiting for. Muchos gracias.

Let us know how she shoots!
Link Posted: 8/6/2006 7:02:15 PM EDT
[#2]
Cool
One of the best (nah, it is the best) DR pics and review so far

How's the FOV?  Is it as good as the 4x32 ACOGs?
Link Posted: 8/6/2006 8:47:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 8/6/2006 10:16:58 PM EDT
[#4]
Very Nice.  I wonder how it stacks up against the short dot?
Link Posted: 8/6/2006 11:07:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Ok so I wonder if the point of impact calibrated into the scope will be different than intended from a M4 14.5 1/7 twist than it would with a 20" 1/9 .

If that made any sense? Would they not be essentially a miscalibrated scope/rifle on anything other than an 14.5 1/7?

I used to have the old Elcan and without comparing it to the acog as I havent owned one of them, It is definetly an "AWESOME" optic. The glass is so clear, the accuracy is so tight. It is just a pleasurable optic.

I also wonder?? Is this scope useable without the lit reticle? Meaning does the illumination reticle have to be operable for the scope to work correctly? Will the reticle work un-illuminated?

Seriously considering this scope.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 12:07:22 AM EDT
[#6]
Excellent post.  I was seriously considering this optic, but based on the NV performance it's moved to a "maybe latter".

thanks for a great post.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 1:24:12 AM EDT
[#7]
Victor, do you have a PVS/22 to see if that would work well with this unit?  I would consider it, but the price of this unit is way beyond my grasp.  I'm a lowly poor person who has to build my projects one step at a time... *reposts my tired, old picture* lol



I was going to post a comprehensive review and ya beat me to it!  I was going to wait till I had access to more than 100y range.  oh well...  so I may just add on to yours instead.  

I found that the illuminated reticle was designed primarily for night-use, and would be perfect for the streets of *name your favorite desert town* , the highest setting was a little too dim for use for twilight, at least for my liking...  and if the lowest setting is too low for NV use, there may be some tweaking to the brightness of this feature.

The brightest setting of the red dot does cause a bit of bloom in the unit itself, but in the conditions you would have it set, it's not really visible.  In all day and low light situations, this unit is a winner.

Sadly, I have decided that my NV rig will be using a different optic/rifle combo.  Although I will play with the idea of using an infra-red pointer such as DBAL-A2 with a PVS/14 head mount as an alternative.

Devl noted in another thread that the Specter DR may have the magnification lever moved to the other side, and I would think this is one of the only shortcomings that is easily fixed.  

As a whole though, this is my favorite magnified CQB optic of all time.  The 1x/4x is really usable, the field of view is spectacular when compared to a Leupold CQ/B or Short Dot or it's clones, and the exit pupil is much more generous and 'getting a lock' on a target doesn't require exact cheek weld that some other scopes have at higher magnification settings.

[/mall ninja]
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 4:33:16 AM EDT
[#8]
Not the magnification lever, the mounting levers are supposed to be switched.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 9:38:23 AM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:
Not the magnification lever, the mounting levers are supposed to be switched.


Why are these better on the other side??
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 10:27:22 AM EDT
[#10]
Because it makes more room for the lever that actuates the zoom feature and when not looking its possible to get confused and try to throw the wrong lever.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 11:54:07 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
Because it makes more room for the lever that actuates the zoom feature and when not looking its possible to get confused and try to throw the wrong lever.


Thanks for the quick answer Devl. One more if you can.

Is this scope BDC calibrated for a 14.5 bbl w/ a 1/7 twist 62gr.???

And if so will not the POI be unmatched with any other combination? Hope this doesnt sound like a dumb question. But im dumb.. lol
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 12:20:52 PM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
Not the magnification lever, the mounting levers are supposed to be switched.


Oh... that doesn't make sense to me.  Mounting levers should be on your left, and  it's a bit more difficult to switch the mag power with your support hand...  IMO.

*shrug*
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 12:24:59 PM EDT
[#13]
Yes but if you check the ACOG BDC calibration thread you will find its not that far off for other rounds and barrel lengths.  I am hoping they release a .308 calibrated version so it will match up with 75 grain 5.56 TAP from my barrel for example.

Even if you shoot heavy loads with this optic you are still going to find you can learn how far off it is at each mark or what the actual range is instead of what it tells you with some testing.  Remeber this is calibrated for a certain temperature and altitude too so its not even perfect with its recceomended barrel length and ammo type in all conditions.  Get to know your own rifle hold offs for your ammo and just adapt IMO.

I know from experience I wont be doing any shooting from over 300 yards with 5.56 and an under 20" barrel anyway.  The wind does horrible thigs to the .223 round and I cant see that well with a 4X optic at 400 and up to do any real precision shooting anyway.  How much 400+ yard shooting do you currently do with your carbine?  Most people try out their BDC one or twice then shoot at 300 yards and under pretty much all the time anyway.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 12:28:54 PM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not the magnification lever, the mounting levers are supposed to be switched.


Oh... that doesn't make sense to me.  Mounting levers should be on your left, and  it's a bit more difficult to switch the mag power with your support hand...  IMO.

*shrug*


I believe the idea is so you can maintain your firing grip.  I would be happy either way they did it.



By doing it this way they only have to reengineer the lower part of the mount.  Doing the lever on the other side requires complete mirroring and reengineering of the internals of the scope which is much more complicated and expensive.

Oh yeah and as far as the weight comments, keep in mind this optic is 22 or 23oz WITH mount.  Pretty much ALL current variables from the Meopta, S&B, TR21, to the NF will run 20 to 27 oz with the Larue SPR or EER type mount included in the weight.  The only considerably lighter option is the TA31DOC which is about 16ish oz with a Larue mount.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 12:57:11 PM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:
Yes but if you check the ACOG BDC calibration thread you will find its not that far off for other rounds and barrel lengths.  I am hoping they release a .308 calibrated version so it will match up with 75 grain 5.56 TAP from my barrel for example.

Even if you shoot heavy loads with this optic you are still going to find you can learn how far off it is at each mark or what the actual range is instead of what it tells you with some testing.  Remeber this is calibrated for a certain temperature and altitude too so its not even perfect with its recceomended barrel length and ammo type in all conditions.  Get to know your own rifle hold offs for your ammo and just adapt IMO.

I know from experience I wont be doing any shooting from over 300 yards with 5.56 and an under 20" barrel anyway.  The wind does horrible thigs to the .223 round and I cant see that well with a 4X optic at 400 and up to do any real precision shooting anyway.  How much 400+ yard shooting do you currently do with your carbine?  Most people try out their BDC one or twice then shoot at 300 yards and under pretty much all the time anyway.



W/ my old colt Hbar 20" and the older model Elcan I once put a 5 rd group on a stop sign at 800 meters. On a cold crisp night with no wind.

No BS

I sold off the rifle and Elcan scope for a carbine Bushy bbl. and havent known accuracy even remotely close since.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 12:57:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 3:07:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 6:03:31 PM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:

I believe the idea is so you can maintain your firing grip.  I would be happy either way they did it.


Yeah, I understand that, but when I've tried doing this, my rifle feels awfully unbalanced and tips foward and feels really clumsy, and if I were to have a M203 attached (like I'd ever re-up... lol) it would be impractical, if not impossible.  Switching from 1x/4x and back is difficult unless you're in a supported position.

And, if it were safe enough or time to switch magnification, I don't think removing your hand from the firing position for one second would really be a concern.



By doing it this way they only have to reengineer the lower part of the mount.  Doing the lever on the other side requires complete mirroring and reengineering of the internals of the scope which is much more complicated and expensive.


All they would need to do is re-engineer the lever.  Just make an identical mirror lever for the opposite side, as the actuating optical element has an axis that is centerline to the body of the scope.  



Oh yeah and as far as the weight comments, keep in mind this optic is 22 or 23oz WITH mount.  Pretty much ALL current variables from the Meopta, S&B, TR21, to the NF will run 20 to 27 oz with the Larue SPR or EER type mount included in the weight.  The only considerably lighter option is the TA31DOC which is about 16ish oz with a Larue mount.


Yeah, you're right about that.  I've never particularly been a fan of the ACOG line though.  Just my personal preference though.  
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 7:30:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Excellent review Vic.  I see you have good reasons for NOT RETURNING MY CALLS!!!  Sorry dude...had to bust your chops.  I am thankful for this review for two reasons:

1) you saved me a bunch of money

and

2) bolstered my confidence in my ACOG TA11F w/Progressive Machine lense cap

This is really a top notch setup for me.  As with all ACOGs it takes a little getting used to, but once you're on it.....you're on it!  It simple really.   Want CQB: lense cap up.  Want 4X: lense cap down.  

Can't downplay Elcans too much though.  They are top of the line.

Regards- Freddy
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 7:35:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 8:22:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Is there a killflash ARD available for the DR?
Link Posted: 8/8/2006 8:58:28 AM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:
Is there a killflash ARD available for the DR?


Good question Xeno : )

Also a question for Devl. Are you sure that Elcan is expected to do improvements to this optic in a subsequent release? or is this speculation?

Thanks

ST
Link Posted: 8/8/2006 10:52:23 AM EDT
[#23]
Elcan stated they would only be offering the optic in a single configuration and BDC initially.  It will be the same as their miliary production unit.  That unit has not been finalised. However the unit pictured is their latest rendition.  So while its semi speculation the above IS the latest rendition but perhaps not what they will actually end up with as a final product. When I asked they said they had no plans to produce a unit with black anodisation either.
Link Posted: 8/8/2006 1:30:03 PM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:
Excellent review Vic.  I see you have good reasons for NOT RETURNING MY CALLS!!!  Sorry dude...had to bust your chops.  I am thankful for this review for two reasons:

1) you saved me a bunch of money

and

2) bolstered my confidence in my ACOG TA11F w/Progressive Machine lense cap

This is really a top notch setup for me.  As with all ACOGs it takes a little getting used to, but once you're on it.....you're on it!  It simple really.   Want CQB: lense cap up.  Want 4X: lense cap down.  

Can't downplay Elcans too much though.  They are top of the line.

Regards- Freddy


what is a progressive Machine lense cap and how is it giving you CQB?
Link Posted: 8/8/2006 4:41:40 PM EDT
[#25]
By blocking the objective lens, the ACOG can be used like a red dot sight in short distances.
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 11:26:44 AM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 1:41:16 PM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:
By blocking the objective lens, the ACOG can be used like a red dot sight in short distances.


And it has a different POA/POI than the scope when magnified.  I dont find that acceptable.
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 5:24:45 PM EDT
[#28]
So close but so far,with the 4moa dot at 4X Covering 8inch at 200yds is bad enough but 12inch at 300yds, dangit.Only good for those who need a people shooter only.
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 5:51:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 7:17:27 PM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:
So close but so far,with the 4moa dot at 4X Covering 8inch at 200yds is bad enough but 12inch at 300yds, dangit.Only good for those who need a people shooter only.


Please refrain from making statements like this and ask questions instead, it would be easier to address.

The ACOG has a 4 MOA donut... its 1 MOA thick with a 2 MOA hole in the middle, I dont find it to obsure anything really.  At 300 yards you use NO part of the donut as an aiming point, you use the BDC ladder.  The Elcan Specter has a 1.5 MOA dot at 4X. You also use NO part of the dot for aiming at 300 yards.  [smart ass mode]There is this phenomenon where gravity pulls on the bullet and it strikes lower than your 100 yards zero... under the illuminated portion of the reticle/dot/donut. [/smart ass mode]
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 7:28:29 PM EDT
[#31]
I thought it was 6MOA at 4x (from first post/review) for the Spectre DR?
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 7:43:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 11:19:26 PM EDT
[#33]
I am a bit confused then.  How is it 6 MOA at 4X and 1.5 MOA at 1X?  How does that work exactly?  In my mind it is either going to cover the same MOA or 4 times less at 4X, not 4 times more.  If the dot grows with magnification the MOA has not changed (FFP) and if it does not then its 4 times smaller (RFP). I dont see how the reticle grows to 16 times its original size to become 4 times greater MOA size.

Victor,

I am not noticing the dot becoming 16 times larger in your pics, is that what you are seeing as you switch to 4X? I know pics can be deceiving but I thought that would be obvious.

In the pics its fairly clear the cross hairs and BDC are calibrated for 4X and unusable at 1X as its RFP.  The dot also appears so stay the same size and shrink realtive to the back ground like the crosshairs, which would be RFP.  That would mean 6 MOA 1X and 1.5 MOA 4X coverage if those are indeed the correct numbers.  You simply made a typo and reversed the MOA coverage.
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 11:38:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Great review Victor!  I got the chance to play with the DR at Shot and I love this optic.  But, I've been waiting for range reports before I pull the trigger myself.

I was under the impression that you could not use your BUIS looking through this optic.  I remember someone who claimed to be a rep or employee for Elcan who claimed that this would not work and that removal of the optic would be required.  True or not true?  If this is true, having access to your ARMS is irrelivent.

Has anyone spent any range time with one of these yet?  I've heard rumors of a shift in POI/POA between magnifications.  Is it really less then 1/2moa?  
Link Posted: 8/10/2006 9:01:41 AM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 8/10/2006 9:07:28 AM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 8/10/2006 9:56:37 AM EDT
[#37]
That makes more sense now about the dot.  Thanks Victor.
Link Posted: 8/10/2006 10:45:31 AM EDT
[#38]
The one thing I noticed about this, is how CRITICAL eye relilef and positioning is at 1X.  If you are even a SLIGHT bit off, you see nothing but black.  If you are used to the more forgiving nature of the aimpoint or eotech, this takes some getting used to.
Link Posted: 8/10/2006 2:25:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Link Posted: 8/12/2006 7:23:41 AM EDT
[#40]
Link Posted: 8/12/2006 9:07:08 AM EDT
[#41]
Good review, thanks.
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 10:50:12 AM EDT
[#42]
Hi Victor

Do you have pics of the red-dot lit up during day time both on 1x and 4x ?

How easy is the magnification lever to catch in a hurry?

Looking for a 3gun scope and this once again might be it.

Thanks

Edit to spell the Man`s name right!
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 1:04:21 PM EDT
[#43]
Link Posted: 8/15/2006 7:28:33 AM EDT
[#44]
Link Posted: 8/15/2006 11:11:13 AM EDT
[#45]
Victor and Xenophobe, can you reconcile these comments?

I read this as "not bright enough to use as an Aimpoint during the day" but maybe Xeno was talking about night use? --


Xenophobe: I found that the illuminated reticle was designed primarily for night-use, and would be perfect for the streets of *name your favorite desert town* , the highest setting was a little too dim for use for twilight, at least for my liking... and if the lowest setting is too low for NV use, there may be some tweaking to the brightness of this feature.

The brightest setting of the red dot does cause a bit of bloom in the unit itself, but in the conditions you would have it set, it's not really visible. In all day and low light situations, this unit is a winner.



But I read this as "bright enough to use as an Aimpoint":


Victor: Had several folk write me to ask how bright is the dot compared to the EO and AP? I feel the dot on the brigtest days with a bright background is JUST a tad under the brightest intensity of the AP. I have found no problems with the DR's intensity on birght sunny days.

Link Posted: 8/15/2006 1:05:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Link Posted: 8/15/2006 1:34:11 PM EDT
[#47]

Quoted:
Victor and Xenophobe, can you reconcile these comments?

I read this as "not bright enough to use as an Aimpoint during the day" but maybe Xeno was talking about night use? --


Xenophobe: I found that the illuminated reticle was designed primarily for night-use, and would be perfect for the streets of *name your favorite desert town* , the highest setting was a little too dim for use for twilight, at least for my liking... and if the lowest setting is too low for NV use, there may be some tweaking to the brightness of this feature.

The brightest setting of the red dot does cause a bit of bloom in the unit itself, but in the conditions you would have it set, it's not really visible. In all day and low light situations, this unit is a winner.



But I read this as "bright enough to use as an Aimpoint":


Victor: Had several folk write me to ask how bright is the dot compared to the EO and AP? I feel the dot on the brigtest days with a bright background is JUST a tad under the brightest intensity of the AP. I have found no problems with the DR's intensity on birght sunny days.



Your confusion comes from one person talking about the illuminated crosshairs and another talking about the dot.
Link Posted: 8/15/2006 1:39:08 PM EDT
[#48]
Thank you! I'm not a NV guy so I only care about whether the dot is Aimpoint-bright for day use.
Link Posted: 8/17/2006 11:20:43 AM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 8/21/2006 12:35:47 AM EDT
[#50]
One question though.  I have a fixed front sight on my ar which i use to co-witness with my red dot.  In 4x view will the front sight block my view as much or will it not be seen?  I am going to remove the front sight in the future.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Page AR-15 » Optics, Mounts, and Sights
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top