Before I say anything I want to ask that you PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS THREAD INTO AN AIMPOINT VS. TACPOINT FLAME WAR.  That is not what it is intended to be.  This thread ifs for people wanting information about the Tacpoint and people who want to post their experience with the Tacpoint.  Everyone else just bite your lip and keep your condescending comments to yourself.  

After reading the "I got the tacpoint pics" thread I decided to order one from nightvisionweb.com.  It came in yesterday and looked just like an Aimpoint.  I immediately took it outside to test the reticle brightness, as it was about 1:00 in the afternoon with no clouds, .  I put it on the brightest setting and held it up to the sky just to the right of the sun.  The reticle did not wash out and was still very easy to see.  Test #1 passed with flying colors.  

Next I wanted to test its watertightness.  It is supposedly waterproof so I sumbmersed it in a tub of water and let it sit for about 10 minutes.  I took it out and immediatly turned the dot on.  It came right on, no problem.  Test #2 passed, or so I thought.  

The next day I got up early and made the 30 minute drive to the range all excited about my new sight.  I loaded up in preparation to get the Tacpoint sighted in and after the first shot I noticed a little problem.  There was condensation on the lenses of the sight.  I wiped both the front and rear lenses with my T-shirt and realized that the condensation was on the inside of the lenses rather than the outside.  Apparently a little water did get inside the tube when I submerged it.  I guess that it didn't pass test #2 after all.

I could still see around the outer edges of the lenses as the condensation was all in the middle so I went ahead and sighted it in at 50 yards.  Once I got 5 shots right on the bullseye I wanted to test whether the sight would hold a zero after some hard knocks.  I took the little sandbag off my benchrest and laid it on the wooden bench itself.  Then I took my carbine, grabbed the handgaurds with one hand and the stock with the other  and proceeded to slam the tacpoint from about a foot in the air onto the sanbag 10 times on each side pretty damn hard (the sandbag is about 1 inch thick and it was lying on a 2 inch thick wooded bench).  I then loaded up another 5 rounds and shot a group at 50 yards.  Now I gotta tell you, after getting slammed as hard as I slammed it I figured it would be a couple of inches off at least as I don't know that ANY optic could take those hits and still be right on (I'm telling you I slammed it HARD).  My first group was about 3/4 of an inch to the left, vertically it was still right on.  I fired a second group to verify the first and again it was about 3/4 of an inch left.  I guess you could say that test #3 failed since technically it didn't hold zero, but I must say after slamming that hard 20 times I was pretty impressed that it was still anywhere near the bullseye.

I tested parallax by putting the reticle on different parts of the rim of the lens (after all I couldn't put it in the center because of the big sploch of condensation).  I noticed no problems with parallax.  Test #4 passed.  

I will be contacting nightvisionweb about getting a replacement.  I don't know but they will probably refer me directly to Hakko so I'll report back about the customer service once I get this all settled.

Needless to say I was a little disappointed.  However I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Tacpoint is junk.  On the contrary,  the dot was clear even in bright sunlight, it didn't parallax at all, and despite taking some very hard hits it remained very close to zero.  I wouldn't trust it in combat because of the water issue but for the average joe who is just going to the range a few times a month the tacpoint isn't a bad deal at all.  I would really like to hear any test results from other members especially regarding submersion in water.  A head to head torture test between an Aimpoint and a Tacpoint would be cool too.  Who knows maybe I just happened to get a lemon.

Drifter,
Thanks for your testing and reporting it here.  If you don't mind I'd like to post this at www.MD-AR15.com in our product reviews section (bonus points if you have a photo of the sight on your rifle...).

From your report the sight is not up the Military Aimpoint standards - but then again it was never meant to be.  It is, however, a reasonably durable cost effective sight that will work great for the majority of AR-15 shooters that shoot for recreation.

Could you post what batteries this sight uses, and do you know the life expectancy of the battereis?  Interested in running a battery life test?

Again my thanks - you did a great job.

-Forest

Hey Forest, you are welcome to use the post in the review section, but you may want to wait until I get my replacement because I'm a considering testing the watertightness again once I get my replacement (I haven't decided whether or not I want to take the chance).  The scopes are supposed to be watertight and ANY company can put out a lemon now and then so I still give them the benefit of the doubt (still would'nt trust my life to it though).  I am hoping that maybe some other members will have the guts to dunk their tacpoints and see what the results are.  As far as the battery life test once I send this one off and recieve my new one I would be happy to test the battery life (btw it uses LR44 batteries, two of them).

I have pics of the scope on my carbine, the submersion test, and the condensation on the following day.  I wanted to include them in my post but couln't figure out how to get them on there.  If you give me your E-mail address I would be happy to send them to you.

IM Sent (I'll host & post for you).

Thanks for the report.
One question, what mount did you use?

It was mounted on the carryhandle.  I'm not sure what brand the mount is to be honest with you.  I got it at the local gun store for about $35.  It's not an ARMS.

Quoted: It was mounted on the carryhandle.  I'm not sure what brand the mount is to be honest with you.  I got it at the local gun store for about $35.  It's not an ARMS.

I only asked because with your 'slam' test the optic could have held zero and the mount not.

Thanks for the review. Would have loved to seen the look on the faces of other shooters as they watched you slamming your gun around, priceless. I was thinking about getting the Tacpoint to put on a gun for my kids to start practcing with. You have helped to confirm my decision. Thanks again.

Quoted: Quoted: It was mounted on the carryhandle.  I'm not sure what brand the mount is to be honest with you.  I got it at the local gun store for about $35.  It's not an ARMS. I only asked because with your 'slam' test the optic could have held zero and the mount not.

Excellent point.

Have you tested the dot brightness at night? On the lowest setting is it too bright, just right, etc? Also does it have alot of (red glare) internally when viewed thru at night like alot of cheapo red dots have?
thanks

I turned the dot on at night in my basement where absolutely no ambient light could creep in i.e. pitch black.  At the lowest couple of settings there was no glare.  The brightness of the dot was about right on the lowest setting.  It was a little brighter than necessary but not too bright.  I would like to have maybe one more lower brightness setting, however you must remember I was in an area where absolutely no ambient light was present, no moonlight, no light from streetlights or houses or buildings, no illumination at all.

As far as the mount goes I agree it may have been the cause of the loss of zero.  I am still pretty damned impressed that it was less than an inch off after beating the crap out of it.  Like I said before I don't know if ANY brand of optic could take those hits and maintian perfect zero.   It was pretty funny at the range.  Next to me some guy had a bolt action match target rifle and a chronogragh set up and there I was pounding the crap out of my AR against the bench.

Quoted: I turned the dot on at night in my basement where absolutely no ambient light could creep in i.e. pitch black.  At the lowest couple of settings there was no glare.  The brightness of the dot was about right on the lowest setting.  It was a little brighter than necessary but not too bright.  I would like to have maybe one more lower brightness setting, however you must remember I was in an area where absolutely no ambient light was present, no moonlight, no light from streetlights or houses or buildings, no illumination at all.

thanks

The brightness knob is pretty stiff.  I have to use my thumb and index finger to turn it rather than just rolling my finger across it.

BTW I talked to the guy at nightvisionweb and he said that the tacpoint its technically not submersible.  Submersible and waterproof are two different things apparently.  He said that waterproof means that it will hold up fine against rain or getting splashed or sprayed with water but it is not designed to be totally submerged underwater.  So technically I guess the Tacpoint didn't really fail in any of the claims that it makes.  Now I'm even more pissed that I dunked it, but somebody had to do it dammit!

Quoted: The brightness knob is pretty stiff.  I have to use my thumb and index finger to turn it rather than just rolling my finger across it. BTW I talked to the guy at nightvisionweb and he said that the tacpoint its technically not submersible.  Submersible and waterproof are two different things apparently.  He said that waterproof means that it will hold up fine against rain or getting splashed or sprayed with water but it is not designed to be totally submerged underwater.  So technically I guess the Tacpoint didn't really fail in any of the claims that it makes.  Now I'm even more pissed that I dunked it, but somebody had to do it dammit!

Way to take one for the team!

Quoted: ...the tacpoint its technically not submersible.  Submersible and waterproof are two different things apparently.  He said that waterproof means that it will hold up fine against rain or getting splashed or sprayed with water but it is not designed to be totally submerged underwater.

That's sleazy lawyer speak (I smell a supplier trying to weasle out of the warrenty).  EOTech indicates its 'Waterproof' to a certain depth (depending on model & revision).

If it can take rain & spashes that is usually reffered to 'Water Resistant'.

Photo of Drifter's TacPoint with the Condensation in the middle:

Anybody want to submerge their Aimpoint for 10 minutes, I'd like to see what happens.
Just curious.

Just curious, are they willing to exchange it for you?

Well whether or not waterproof and submersible are the same or not the guy I talked to at nightvisionweb was really nice and I told him what I did (I thought about making up a story about dropping it in a creek or something but I said to hell with that and just told him that I wanted to test it).  He said to send it back to them and they would send me a replacement.  I'll be sending it back within the next few days and will keep you posted on nightvisionweb's customer service.  They said that their next shipment will be in a few weeks so it will be a while before I get my next one.  I asked him how many they sold so far and he said 50.  I then asked if anyone else had any problems and he said I was the first.

I have a Tacpoint and like it.  I didnt get it wet though.  Oh, isnt it nice to be the first? :)

Good Luck,
 Eric

There was condensation on the lenses of the sight. I wiped both the front and rear lenses with my T-shirt and realized that the condensation was on the inside of the lenses rather than the outside. Apparently a little water did get inside the tube when I submerged it.

I found no need to read any further than this.  

Thanks for the review Drifter.

That is a little disappointing about the condensation. Drifter, your right, it may be a "Lemon" I am also surprised that they will exchange the sight after you told him exactly all you did to it.

Remember the post I wrote about my BSA red dot I submerged ("I got the Tacpoint pics")?  Well, there wasnt any condensation, but the sight failed to work after a few minutes and yes I did replace the batteries.

I hope its a "lemon" but Im sure this news would be a deal killer for many considering the Tacpoint. May be not though

Quoted: Anybody want to submerge their Aimpoint for 10 minutes, I'd like to see what happens. Just curious.

+1

Quoted: Anybody want to submerge their Aimpoint for 10 minutes, I'd like to see what happens. Just curious.

I vote Lumpy.  

More Pics of the test:

Tacpoint Mounted on Rifle:


About to be submerged:



In the Water:




View Through the TacPoint (immediately afte submerging)

AK-Joe...

Anybody want to submerge their Aimpoint for 10 minutes, I'd like to see what happens. Just curious.

How about 9 hours... will that quell your skepticism?

Yup, when I bought my first Aimpoint about 5 years ago I tested it's waterproof seal by submerging it overnight in a bowl of water.

Guess what... no condensation, fogging, or leakage, and the damn thing runs like a champ to this day.

Guys, face facts... when it comes to optics, you really do get what you pay for.

Quoted: The brightness knob is pretty stiff.  I have to use my thumb and index finger to turn it rather than just rolling my finger across it. BTW I talked to the guy at nightvisionweb and he said that the tacpoint its technically not submersible.  Submersible and waterproof are two different things apparently.  He said that waterproof means that it will hold up fine against rain or getting splashed or sprayed with water but it is not designed to be totally submerged underwater.  So technically I guess the Tacpoint didn't really fail in any of the claims that it makes.  Now I'm even more pissed that I dunked it, but somebody had to do it dammit!

Put it on the back window deck of your car for a few days in the heat of the summer and park it out in the sun. In Texas, anyway, that will dry out damn near anything. It's not like it stopped working. You should be able to dry it out and keep using it.

NYPatriot; One thing, though on the aimpoint water test, to consider. To simply submerge it for 9 hours under water is a good test, but a more real world test would be strap it to your arm or belt with an elastic binder (and lanyard so you don't lose it) an go for a swim in a freshwater lake (would not want to expose it to pool chlorine or chemicals) because the pressure generated by movement underwater (such as swimming) is much higher than the water pressure of laying in a tub of water. This would simulate swimming or wading accross a fast flowing stream as you might have to do in SHTF or combat. That's why watches rated at 3 atmospheres (approx 100 meters depth) often leak when swimming, whereas true dive watches rated at 10 atmospheres (330 feet) generally will not take water.

I suspect the aimpoint would pass regardless, but it would be a better test to take it swimming than to simply submerge it with no movement.



edited for typos

Hey, we gotta give Forest points for submerging the optic in an emesis (read: puke) basin.

Now that is the balls!!!!

Thanks for the testing.  I own an M2 myself (and use one on duty) but I am always looking for bargains.  I can see what alot of people say about trusting your optic, but I think many people also would hate to think they can get 95% of the functionality in a package that was 60% cheaper.

Keep up the good work.

-Redfoot

Quoted: AK-Joe... Anybody want to submerge their Aimpoint for 10 minutes, I'd like to see what happens. Just curious. How about 9 hours... will that quell your skepticism? Yup, when I bought my first Aimpoint about 5 years ago I tested it's waterproof seal by submerging it overnight in a bowl of water. Guess what... no condensation, fogging, or leakage, and the damn thing runs like a champ to this day. Guys, face facts... when it comes to optics, you really do get what you pay for.

Try it now but give us some pics....show me don't tell me.

Whats the purpose of the BUIS then if its so trustworthy.

I don't think anybody has any illusions as to what the Tac point is, its simply an inexpensive red dot sight that works pretty good for not a lot of money and I really haven't read where anybody has tried to pass it off as better than an Aimpoint, what gets old is the the gear snobs trashing anything simply because its not what the military uses.

Quoted: Hey, we gotta give Forest points for submerging the optic in an emesis (read: puke) basin. Now that is the balls!!!! -Redfoot

Actually that is a standard disposible bath basin; the disposible emesis basin is a tiny curved affair that is way too small, so most use the bath basin an emesis basin since it will hold more puke. (I've worked in a hospital waaaay to long)

AK-Joe, if my word is not good enough for you, than too bad.  I'm not going to test it again & photograph the results for your amusement. What I said happened actually happened, and I have no doubt that if I were inclined to take you up on your challenge, my Aimpoint would once again pass the test with flying colors (in spite of 5 years of use)!

Friend, I don't buy accessories simply because they are what the military uses... I buy them because they WORK!

Spend your $$$ however you see fit, and I will do the same.  

Hey guys, I got some more news about my tacpoint.  After taking it home and putting it away with the condensation on the lens I checked it out again several hours later after I got off work.  I was suprised to see no condensation on the lens.  I figured that if it got out in the sun the condensation would reappear so I did another test.  I have some 200 watt clamp lamps in my basement that get really damn hot after being on for a few minutes so I put two of them about four inches away from my tacpoint.  After a few minutes the condensation reappeared but to a lesser degree.  I left it under the lamps for about 15 more minutes and to my suprise the condensation was gone.  That was last night.  I took it to the range today and put about 200 rounds through my carbine and the tacpoint worked fine the whole time, no condensation whatsoever.  I guess what little water that had seeped in before had evaporated under the extreme heat of the lamps.  

I'm still going to try and get a replacement from nightvisionweb and will keep you posted on their customer service.  I must say that while the Tacpoint failed the full submersion test I would not feel afraid to take it out in the rain and get it a little wet.  After 10 minutes of soaking underwater there was only enough moisture in the scope to fog the center of the lens and the dot never failed to come on.  Besides the lack of full submersion capability and no compatability with nightvision (at least I don't think the tacpoint works with nightvision) it is basically the same as an aimpoint.  I'm not saying I would want to go into combat with it but for little more than $100 I think that the tacpoint may be one of the best optics in that price range.

Quoted: Hey, we gotta give Forest points for submerging the optic in an emesis (read: puke) basin. Now that is the balls!!!!

Nope I'm just posting the pictures for Drifter.

Drifter is the one with the Cajones!

Does anyone know what the claimed battery life is on these?

Quoted: Does anyone know what the claimed battery life is on these?

Asked on Page 1 - Drifter will be doing a test and posting the results.

$125 for The Tacpoint vs. $325+approx $100 for a mount for the Aimpoint.

Aimpoint may be completely submersible, but it sounds like the Tacpoint will continue to run as long as the condesation is dried out.  Sounds like the Tacpoint will more or less hold its zero even under considerable abuse.

And I would say that NYPatriot is 110% correct about you get what you pay for.  If you are a high-speed low drag guy, is it worth the extra $300 for the Aimpoint and a super high quality mount to gaurantee taht you don't need to dry it out in the field?  Hell Yes!  But if you are a weekend warrior (like many of us are) it sounds like the Tacpoint is a hell of a value!

Thanks Drifter, that is a heck of a thing to do to answer the question of what the Tacpoint will handle!

sounds like a heck of a deal for us poor swat cops too.

I might get one just to have because after Aimpoint sues and they are forced to stop making them then they will be rare.  I love Aimpoints but like has been stated if you are just a weekend warrior then this thing is fine for you.  If you don't want one because you think it is cheap then just don't get one.  No need to come on here and say how sweet the Aimpoint is because the high speed guys already know.

I doubt Aimpoint would have a case if it tried to sue Hakko over the Tacpoint. It only resembles the Aimpoint, it hower uses Hakko's own electronics, and the way its built is again different then that of the Aimpoint.  It uses different batteries, does not have the number of illumination settings the Aimpoint has, and is by a small amount, slightly longer in size.  Yup, it looks similar to the Aimpoint but is not just like the Aimpoint. If it were an issue im sure customs would have stopped its shipment into the US, but it think they mostly worry about trademark markings on them and not the look factor.

I'n my experience, the normal kidney basin does nothing but allow the patient a way to accurately aim watery vomit, in effect giving the emesis a "ramp" to fly all over your scrubs.  I just normally give them the wash basin above for such duties.

Keep up the good work!

-Redfoot

It seems like everyone is skirting around the battery life issue.

You guys that own these have no idea of the battery life rating??? Didn’t you guys get some kind of spec sheet with the optic???

To me the biggest advantage of the Aimpoint over ALL other red dot systems is its incredible battery life.

Perhaps the next test should be to leave the Tacpoint ON and see how long the batteries lasts?

I have no clue as to how long they last. Im still useing the same set that came with the sight and have about 1300 rnds thru it. Not sure what that adds up to in total time turned on, but they seem to be lasting a while. They are inexpensive LR44 batteries. Any local walmart has them in a 3 pack for about 4.00  ... At that price, im not to concerned about how long they last. Ive just got 6 of them floating in the bottom of my samco grip wraped up to rattle proof them.

If someone has both sights, Aimpoint & Tacpoint could you post pictures of them side by side. It would be nice to compare size and shape in more detail......

I got my Tacpoint on Thursday. I've yet to mount. Looking through the scope, it looks exactly like my Aimpoint ML2 except the light blue tint that's visible on my Aimpoint isn't there. The dots look exactly the same. As of my posting in this thread, my Aimpoint ML2 and my Tacpoint are submerged in water in a tupperware container. I'm going to be bold and let them sit overnight

I will reply in the morning with the results of this test.

Well tomorrow is Sunday, fine day for two baptisms This thread has been alot of fun to read, and informative for a noob like me, thanks to everyone.

Any other sources for the Tacpoint besides scopesnmore.com and nightvisionweb.com? Seems like a good option to me.

Way to show some balls Einrich!  I wish you the best of luck, hopefully my experience was just an anomaly.  

BTW did you get any kind of booklet or data sheet with your Tacpoint?  Mine just came in a box labeled "Tacpoint, made in Japan" with nothing inside but the sight and all the hardware.