Why doesnt that surprise me.

Yeah turned out Optics Planet didnt have them either.  I bitched at them for the misleading product description ("on sale and available" my ass) and canceled the order.  Worked out for the best anyway since I got both the mount and scope that Ive been waiting on for a discount price!

ETA:  Combo arrived today in perfect working order.  Thanks again Brady!  +1 SWFA

Hey Brady,  so you took a new DMS, mounted it, and sold it today as used, when mine has been backordered for over a month?
Order #96682         3/28/09
Maybe you wait till all backordered items can be shipped at once, since I ordered a P.E.P.R. with it.
I enjoy seeing the pics but would rather see both of them on my AR.

Brady,

I just ordered 2 of the DMS scopes last week...and I think they should be here on Monday.  I will probably get 2 more in the near future, but I was wondering if you could do me a favor?

Can you check and see if it would be possible for me to order a few sets of the higher elevation knobs?

Thanks,

JuJu

Yeah...the cover is what I am looking for.

The taller covers that have room for the spare battery is what I would like...I was hoping that maybe you could get some directly from Millet???

Let me know...

Thanks,

JuJu

This has probably been addressed before...but I can't search back 70 pages!

Anybody know what part number butler creek flip up caps will fit the DMS Gen 2?  (The one with the reticle light turrent on the occular bell.)

Here's something new for the DMS loving crowd.





From 1x to 4x is now a one finger affair, much mo bettah.

Here's the contact info.

Click here.

I have the R&R racing version of that on my DMS-1

Wholly Mowlly! After reading a dozen or so of these posts I found that i have alot to learn about optics and mounts for my brand new RRA flat top carbine.

It may have already been said is the past 70 or so pages of posts but where is the Millet DMS-1 made?

I do believe it is a #16 and a #02A

Based on the pictures, it should clear.

From all accounts, it appears to be of Chinese manufacture.  I guess that's a turn off for some people but the reviews speak for themselves.  Just because its Chinese doesnt mean it sucks IMHO.

I guess I should be nice and share my pictures:  

http://www.wallsofthecity.net/images/gun/functionalbomber1.jpg

http://www.wallsofthecity.net/images/gun/functionalbomber2.jpg

The DMS on the PEPR mount - both work spectacularly (the former courtesy of SWFA, and the latter courtesy of Optics Planet).

It would be cool if someone can test to see if that mount would hold zero if removed and installed several times.

Accurate return to zero testing is pretty difficult (or expensive and time-consuming, at least).

For starters, you have to have an ammo and rifle combination that shoots very well, as 3 MOA groups with XM193 isn't going to tell you much about, say, 1 MOA RTZ capability.  If your average 10 round group size is 1 MOA, you won't be able to measure RTZ more accurately than that without shooting a fair number of groups.

Next, you need to shoot multiple 10 round groups - you need at least one reference group to tell what the baseline for the scope, mount, ammo, and rifle is (3 groups would be better), then you need to shoot the RTZ groups, either by removing/remounting the scope and shooting groups, or removing/remounting for every shot.  

Either way, it takes a fair number of rounds of precision ammo shot through an accurate rifle by a skilled shooter to get meaningful numbers, and those numbers would only be meaningful for that mount and that rifle.  Other mounts from the same or different batches may have different tolerances, and would have to be tested separately to get meaningful data on the design.

Of course, if RTZ is terrible, it'll be obvious pretty early, so that's something...

Midway has them.

ItemIDQty Price Description
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
145465 1  $8.99 Butler Creek Flip-Up Rifle Scope...

720231 1  $8.99 Butler Creek Flip-Up Rifle Scope...



Special handling charge: $3.00

Postage, Handling & Insurance: $6.75
NRA Round-Up: $0.00
Order Total: $27.73

Not to mention the clamped down rifle rest that did not change at all, and an environmentally controlled range so wind, humidity, altitude, etc did not play a part.  Of course you could use some type of laser apparatus, but by the time you got a setup capable of holding a needle point at 100 yds, you are talking big bucks, like more than a new truck big bucks.

Remember that L/T thread that actually delved into the tech behind RTZ testing?  Really had some good info in it, but I can't find it since I can't search the archives.  Oh well.

Brady,

What generation is the DMS you currently have in stock?

Thanks

I got my PEPR mounts in, and haven't had time to do much with them, but they're not going to give a lot more forward offset than the CAA DVSR (0.2 to 0.6" more, depending on how it's mounted).  As seen in the pics others have taken, it's not a alternative to the SPR-E or Recon-X.  The eyepiece is still just above the charging handle, so the NTCH shooters will still need an extended mount.

First impressions are that it's a higher quality equivalent of the DVSR mount - better made, tube size specific, and much better rail attachment and stability, at the cost of more weight.  It leaves lots of rail space free, and looks like it's going to be the best general purpose mount under $100.

Here's a pic of one with the Burris 30mm XTR smooth ring caps on:

Leupold QRW rings.

I'm planning on ordering one of these scopes withni a couple of days.

I've heard a lot of good feedback on the LaRue SPR mount.  I went to the LaRue site and saw that there are several models of that mount.  

Without digging through 69 pages in this thread, can anyone recommend which SPR is best suited for this scope?

Thanx.

Depends on your shooting style.  If you really get forward on the stock, from near- NTCH or less, then an extended mount is going to be required.  If you're running an A2 stock, etc, or just have a less aggressive shooting position then the standard one would be good.

I haven't been keeping up with this thread that closely... saw mention somewhere of a "Gen 3" version... what is the difference between Gen 2 and 3?

My Gen 2 had a spare battery cap, and it was one of the earliest Gen 2s.

ETA:  Been reading back.  I think the only difference that people are calling "Gen 3" is that the cap with the spare battery is installed on the elevation turret instead of windage.  When it's on the windage turret it's not as noticeable as it balances out the adjustment dial on the opposite side.

Speaking of spare batteries in the DMS-1, whats the battery in the windage cap for?  It looks like a spare but its pretty much locked in there by plastic tabs.  The manual says the elevation turret acts as a spare battery compartment.  With the working battery already in the illumination cap, is there really supposed to be 3 batteries in one DMS-1 scope?  Can someone elaborate on this?

I just got off the phone with Bushnell and they told me these are backordered until July 20th or so.

tag

Tag

rborgers... You has to ask didn't you!

So, anyone know what thread has the page count record?

its alot more than this one, there has been a shit ton of threads that maxed out at 100+ before, this thread is nothing, compared to many

A #17EYE fit much better on mine.

There was a chart way back in this thread somewhere,from Butler Creek I think, and it said #16, and #2A. But there's been guy's posting different one's as working. I just ordered my scope last night, and I'm going to go for the #16 as that's what the chart say's, and most guy's have said that work's for them.

Looking to maybe put one of them on a Sig 556 with HK style sights. For those of you with fixed front sights does the front sight make it hard to locate the reticle? Are the one on SWFA all gen 3 models.

Well I took the scope to the store and fit a #16 (pretty tight) and a #17 on it and the #17 was snug with no bulging of the rubber collar like the #16 did, The #17 wasn't doing that and wasn't going to come off. Like I said the #16 fits but is very tight.

BTW - Midway USA scope cover recommendations aree is notorias for being wrong.

Well I'd agree taking it to the store would be best. Have you had it out in the hot sun, and let it get hot. One guy said that's when his came off. I might just get both to be safe.

I think the chart I was refering to was from either Butler Creek, or Millett. But I'm not searching back.

Ok guy's, I have a DMS on the way from SWFA, and I have a unique mounting situation I need to figure out. First let me say I'm new to AR's, heck, any rifle and scope for that matter. I've alway's been into pistol's. That being said, I have no shooting style, like NTCH to contend with. It's all new to me. So I hope I can train myself to go with what I've got. This will be going on a S&W M4 that I built.

The main thing I'm trying to contend with right now is getting a mount that will work down the road with the brass catcher I'm wanting to use. I think the http://www.3bucc.com/feature.htm is the way to go. However, it take's the last notch or two of the reciever. I'm thinking I could go with the SPE, and actually move it back allowing enough room for my brass catcher lug. I've read this hole thread and I'm very confussed by just reading, and not having actual part's in front of me. Does a M4 need a different mount. I do have a CAA mount on the way too that I got off the EE. But it's just a temp. I also back ordered a PEPR. But I got to thinking about it, and I don't think that will work with the brass catcher I really want. As of this moment, I have no buis to deal with, but hope to add them later.

So what do you guy's recomend. Can I get the LaRue SPR-E LT-139, and make it do what I want. Or would you guy's recomend something different. Oh, and I want something one piece. Thank's.


ETA:

After looking back at some pic's, I'm not sure there's enough room for the brass catcher lug to fit underneath the  scope mount. Can someone measure and tell me how much room there is from the top off the reciever, to the bottom of the extended part of the scope mount. If all that make's sence. Just look at the pic's and you'll be able to figure out what I'm trying to do.

You would be very happy with the LaRue.  I use their mounts exclusively.

Well, that's a tricky setup.  The problem with AR optics is there are so many options available that it's hard to say what will work together until you try it.

Moving the scope further back for the brass catcher will contribute to eye relief problems, but if you're used to traditional rifles, that's not such a big deal - it's the CQB NTCH folks who have the most problem there.

So, what you'll want is a mount with a small rail footprint, and you may need a good bit of forward offset for the DMS-1, even if you shoot with the stock extended so you're back off of the charging handle.

For extended mounts, your only real choices are the LaRue SPR-E and ADM Recon X or Scout X.  Both leave some slots open, should fit with the brass catcher gizmo, and will give good forward offset, but it doesn't look like there would be enough room for both a BUIS and the brass catcher.

For standard offset mounts, there are more choices, depending on your budget.  The GG&G and JP mounts appear to leave lots of slots uncovered, as does the PEPR and DVSR, and the new Bobro QR lever mount also has a short footprint.  Only the PEPR and DVSR are under $100, though.

Since you've got a DVSR on its way, I'd try that out and see how it works for you.  It has the smallest footprint of any one-piece mount, and gives forward offset very similar to the PEPR.  If the DVSR works well, the PEPR should also work, once you get it.  I like the looks of the Bobro a lot, though its large lever assembly interferes with the brass catcher unless you switch sides, but it's also pricey.

Keep us posted on what you find with your mounts!

Thank's for the reply.

After looking at more pic's, I've decided I can't decide anything until I get my scope. It all depend's on were my eye relief end's up. Oh well. Back to obssesion mode.

I'm in the process of updating my one-piece mount page, and GG&G has their FLT extended mount that looks like a decent alternative to the LaRue and ADM extended mounts.  Previously, they didn't have one with a lot of forward offset, but the FLT adds a good bit more.

It also comes in both their Accucam QD lever mount ($190) and a bolt-on version ($147) for those on a tighter budget.

I don't know much about it yet, and the gap between rings is larger than on some mounts, but GG&G has a good reputation.

http://www.gggaz.com/index.php?id=238&parents=38,143

If anyone has any experience with this mount, especially with the DMS-1, please post some pics!

Just about to order my dms-1 from swfa but I have a question, what are most people using for buis?  I have the magpul mbus and after looking at a few pics on here I am not sure if they are going to work with this scope.  Any thoughts?

Whether or not the MBUS will fit under the DMS-1 will depend on your mount height.

Here's how to figure out if it will fit under your scope and mount.

- Measure the scope's eyepiece diameter, with flip caps if you're going to use them.  Butler Creek usually adds about 0.1" to the diameter.  If the scope's going far enough back so the eyepiece isn't over the BUIS, measure the diameter where it is over the BUIS.
- Divide that by 2.
- Subtract that from the centerline height of your mount or rings.

This gives the maximum height BUIS that will fit under that scope/mount combo.  Some BUIS have a higher knob or adjustment on the side, and some scopes will clear at the center, but hit off to the side.  It's hard to tell if this will be a problem without trying it out.

For example, my DMS-1 eyepiece diameter is 1.8" with flip caps - divided by 2 gives 0.9".  Mounting it in a 30mm LaRue LT-139 SPR-E, which has a 1.5" centerline, would leave (1.5-0.9) = 0.6" as the tallest BUIS that would fit under this combo.  The MBUS is 0.625" tall, according to reports, so it may barely fit under the flip cap if your tolerances stack up the right way, but it may not.  A taller mount would fit, no problem.  There's a note on LaRue's mount page that MBUS users should use the extra-high LT-138 mount, which isn't an extended version, and can cause cheek weld problems for some shooters.

If you mount the DMS-1 far enough back that the flip caps are behind the MBUS, the barrel diameter is only 1.64", and you'd get a clearance of 0.68", which should fit, but you won't be able to shoot NTCH that way.

As you can see from the list below, that leaves out many.  This is one reason the Troy BUIS is so popular.

Here are some popular BUIS heights:

ARMS 40 - 0.95" folded (mine is 1.00" even)
YHM-9680 - 0.84" to the top of the windage knob, 0.74" to the top of the sight body
Matech - 0.75" folded at the elevation adjustment, off to the side, 0.6" closer to center
MI ERS - 0.75" folded
GG&G MAD - 0.625" folded
Magpul MBUS - 0.625" folded (not verified)
ARMS 40L - 0.61" folded (mine is 0.59")
Troy - 0.460" folded
MI MCTAR-SPLP - .438" folded
YHM QDS - 0.435" folded
KAC 300m - 0.315" folded

You can look up mount centerline heights here:

Big List of AR15 One-Piece Mounts

Maxicon,

I have an MBUS mounted under a Leupold in a PEPR and have 0.126" to spare between the MBUS and the caps I have on the scope.   I know this is a Millet post, but thought this might help.  I'll try to post a pic tonight.  I'll also try to verify the MBUS measurements for you.

That would be great.  Which Leupold is it?  If you get a chance to measure the eyepiece, that would be good too.  Leupold's pretty good at putting up their measurements, but I like to get some real-life data.

Using the numbers is good, but nothing beats actually mounting the hardware and checking it out.

OK, here’s what I came up with on the MBUS under a Leupold VX1 1-4x20mm scope in a Burris PEPR Mount.  I happen to have the scope and mount laying around so I threw it on my Middy and shot a few pics to show how it would work with a MBUS.  Hope this helps.

The scope measurements for the VX1 are the same as my VXIII 1.5-5x20mm FWIW.

Height of MBUS folded & above the rail: .075”
Width of scope w/ cap: 1.67”
Width of scope w/o cap: 1.57”

The Height of MBUS folded measurement is rather hard to determine, as the sight isn’t flat across the top.  The above measurement is from the top of the rail to the high point of the sight, which is slightly ahead of the windage screw.


And here are the pics:

How do you like the VX-1 scope. Do you have the DMS-1 also to compare the two. I just got my DMS-1, and don't really like it. It's very heavy for me, and I'm having a hard time with the eye relief. Before you guy's go picking on me, I've got a bad shoulder, as in 3 failed surgeries, and bad eye's. So I need a scope that is a little more forging. I'm not knocking the Millett.

I'm thinking about seeing if I can send back the Millett and get the VX-1.

For full disclosure, I no longer have a DMS-1.  I had one with the fungus issue and waited months for a replacement from Bushnell, and during the wait went with a EoTech 512 and added a magnifier & decided that was the way to go.  I did play with the DMS-1 a while, but since sold it.  I can agree with you on the weight of the DMS-1.  I was surprised at its size when I got it.  While I never had the DMS-1 & VX1side by side, there is no question that the VX1 was more compact.  Mostly because the DMS-1 has  30mm tube where the VX1 is a 1" tube.  

As for eye relief, I had some issues with the DMS-1 that were corrected once I moved from a LaRue SPR-E to a SPR.  The SPR-E put the DMS-1 too far out for me.  I do not shoot NTCH so I didn't need the SPR-E.  A good thing with the LaRue mounts, if you buy one that doesn't work for you, you can sell it on the EE and get almost as much as you paid for it.  You can also send it back to LaRue and they'll take care of you.

Concerns I have with the DMS-1 that I don't have with the VX1 are customer support & product quality.  As mentioned above, I waited months to get a replacement for a brand new DMS-1.  This would never happen with Leupold.   Leupold's support is top notch and with this support, and Leupold's reputation for product quality, I fully anticipate passing my Leupold scopes to my sons as I grow old. I know they will last that long; I do not think the DMS-1 will.   That's just MHO, so take it for just that.

All that being said, for the $$$ my vote would go to the DMS-1 over the VX1.  This is based on the overall value of the DMS-1.  I feel you get more for your $$$ with the DMS-1 over the VX1 and it's more fun to shoot.  I like the DMS-1 reticle and the illumination & 30mm tube are nice features.  The VX1 is more compact, but being the entry level Leupold, which is still better than many other manufactures mid to high level scopes, I feel it falls behind in glass clearness/crispness.  That is a hard statement to make as I am a Leupold fan, I have many VX3, VX2 & this one VX1.   If I were to be looking for a $200 scope for my AR, and wasn't too concerned with having it for a life time, and like the bells and whistles, I'd go with the DMS-1.

Feel free to ask any other questions and I'll try to help.  Once again, these are just my opinions, and YMMV.