User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/25/2011 3:53:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Bumping this, I'm interested as well, and this is the only thread that search returned
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2011 4:54:05 PM EDT
[#2]
There are many reports on the 5.56 "Superperformance" 75gr OTM load.
It's a poor substitute for the actual LE 5.56 TAP load, IMO, due to poor accuracy and the poorer performing T1 bullet. It does seem to be fast though, at least in longer barrels. Here's an informative link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506&page=37#i4910099 |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2011 5:54:38 PM EDT
[#3]
Appreciate it, I did not think to check if molon had added it to that thread.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2011 8:14:49 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
There are many reports on the 5.56 "Superperformance" 75gr OTM load. It's a poor substitute for the actual LE 5.56 TAP load, IMO, due to poor accuracy and the poorer performing T1 bullet. It does seem to be fast though, at least in longer barrels. Here's an informative link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506&page=37#i4910099 I just got in some Hornady 75 gr TAP (.223) and the aforementioned Superperformance 75 gr OTM (5.56) load. To me, it appears that in the box I received that the Superperformance load is using the T2 bullet. I'll put pics up later showing the TAP and Superperformance side by side. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2011 10:18:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:I just got in some Hornady 75 gr TAP (.223) and the aforementioned Super performance 75 gr OTM (5.56) load. To me, it appears that in the box I received that the Superperformance load is using the T2 bullet. I'll put pics up later showing the TAP and Superperformance side by side.
If you are looking at TAP FPD .223 (the FPD, .223 and 5.56 designations are very important in talking bought TAP ammunition) and the Superperformance Load, per Molon they do use the same bullet: T1. Let me state this another way: TAP FPD .223 does not use the T2 bullet.. The bullet in true TAP 5.56 is the T2, looks very similar but a different bullet. If things have not changed I do not believe the T2 is available in any other load but true TAP 5.56 or as a component for reloading were the T1 is. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2011 11:47:42 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
There are many reports on the 5.56 "Superperformance" 75gr OTM load. It's a poor substitute for the actual LE 5.56 TAP load, IMO, due to poor accuracy and the poorer performing T1 bullet. It does seem to be fast though, at least in longer barrels. Here's an informative link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506&page=37#i4910099 T1 is "poorer performing"? Compared to what? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2011 11:55:53 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
T1 is "poorer performing"? Compared to what? Compared to the T2 bullet in the LE 5.56mm TAP loading. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2011 12:22:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
T1 is "poorer performing"? Compared to what? Compared to the T2 bullet in the LE 5.56mm TAP loading. I wasn't aware that testing showed better terminal performance of the T2 bullet. The reason for the ogive change was to promote better feeding in weapons with M4-feedramps. What testing are you looking at showing that the T2 performs better? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2011 1:15:01 PM EDT
[#9]
I've killed 500 plus pound hogs at 225 yards with one shot from both the new 5.56mm NATO SuperPerformance TAP 1 and the LE 5.56mm NATO TAP 2, they both performed admirably!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2011 11:39:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Alrighty, gents, here are the pics and tell me what you guys think:
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 5:55:38 AM EDT
[#11]
That sure looks like the T2 bullet to me.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 7:30:43 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
That sure looks like the T2 bullet to me. Same here. If that is how the stuff is loaded now....hot damn. ETA: I was going to order a couple boxes for myself to see what I got from ammotogo...holy crap 13$ shipping on 60 rounds! i'll let someone else be the tast monkey on a larger order! |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 9:29:05 AM EDT
[#13]
I hope to shoot some groups with my new upper this weekend.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 10:18:31 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
That sure looks like the T2 bullet to me. Agreed 
Just ordered a couple boxes... |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 10:37:44 AM EDT
[#15]
Well, this sure is interesting, ain't it?!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 10:55:45 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
That sure looks like the T2 bullet to me. Agreed
Just ordered a couple boxes... I may order more after I see how how my new upper shoots this stuff. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 10:57:29 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Well, this sure is interesting, ain't it?! Yes very interesting. I went and looked back at molons testing of these and his looked to be using the t1 bullet. I guess they must have switched them at some point. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 11:03:31 AM EDT
[#18]
I wonder if accuracy will improve as a result.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 11:23:26 AM EDT
[#19]
Is the brass still a lake city headstamp?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 11:26:59 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Is the brass still a lake city headstamp? Yes. Ill post pics of headstamps for all three when I get a chance. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 3:04:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Does look like the changed to the T2, thanks for bringing that to us.
Some one go shoot some and see if it's accuracy issues have been improved. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/27/2011 5:58:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Does look like the changed to the T2, thanks for bringing that to us.
Some one go shoot some and see if it's accuracy issues have been improved. Mine should be here in a week or so. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/28/2011 8:28:21 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Does look like the changed to the T2, thanks for bringing that to us.
Some one go shoot some and see if it's accuracy issues have been improved. I'm going to TRY and shoot some groups this Sunday. I'm going to borrow a higher magnification Leupold from my buddy, as my 1.5-5x Leupy just doesn't cut it for trying to get the smallest groupings at 100 yards, at least for me it doesn't. Gonna use my new upper: 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/29/2011 7:23:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Interesting! Did you e-mail or call Hornady and see what they had to say?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/29/2011 8:11:44 PM EDT
[#26]
See my results on the bottom of PAGE 1.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/29/2011 11:59:28 PM EDT
[#27]
I've got two boxes of the stuff to try out ($4 savings per box buying it from CtD over MidwayUSA) but I haven't shot any yet.
Just so you guys know (I hadn't seen it posted anywhere) that Hornady recommends this ammo to be used in rifle length AR DI systems, unless there is a gas adjustment system. It is recommended that to get the best functioning with Superformance ammunition in gas operated/gas piston semi-automatic or select fire guns, rifle length gas systems with 20 inch or longer barrel lengths are best for reliable firing and extraction. Any other configuration, particularly shorter barrels/gas systems are best served with the installation of an adjustable gas system, ESPECIALLY if a suppressor is to be installed. link |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/30/2011 11:06:35 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
T1 is "poorer performing"? Compared to what? Compared to the T2 bullet in the LE 5.56mm TAP loading. I wasn't aware that testing showed better terminal performance of the T2 bullet. The reason for the ogive change was to promote better feeding in weapons with M4-feedramps. What testing are you looking at showing that the T2 performs better? +1 The T1 performs pretty nice according to the Hornady LEO website pics/gel testing |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/31/2011 5:55:23 PM EDT
[#29]
My boxes of Superperformance are loaded with T2s as well.
Molon's comparison picture: I apologize for the pictures that aren't 100% in focus, as my camera isn't the best for these pictures, but here is my .223 75gr TAP (pictured on right, silver cases) and 5.56 NATO Superperformance 75gr (brass cases). The TAP was purchased locally about a week ago and the 5.56 came from CtD about a week ago. You can see the HP opening is slightly bigger on the TAP.   Now, the bullet in the brass case looks an awfully lot like a T2 rather than a T1 to me.    Now, I haven't tested either of these yet (I have a 20" 1x8 and a 16" 1x9 gun I want to try them in) but if this is the case, I fail to see a reason why the Super-performance isn't desirable instead of the .223 TAP or even the hard to find 5.56 TAP. Thoughts? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/1/2011 5:43:47 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Now, I haven't tested either of these yet (I have a 20" 1x8 and a 16" 1x9 gun I want to try them in) but if this is the case, I fail to see a reason why the Super-performance isn't desirable instead of the .223 TAP or even the hard to find 5.56 TAP. Thoughts? Because faster doesn't necessarily mean better. The reality is that for home defense purposes, there's not even a legitimate need for the 5.56 TAP; the .223 goes plenty fast for fragmentation at the ranges you'd be dealing with. Accuracy has been pretty crappy in all the Superformance reports I've seen, and while it might not be critical for home defense purposes, it makes a difference if you plan on using the ammo for anything else (like varmint hunting, etc). I'd really rather stockpile ammo that I'm confident in for multiple purposes, so accuracy matters to me. As far as the T2 v. T1 bullet, I've never seen anything saying that the T2 was either intended to have or actually does have better terminal performance than the T1. The whole point of the different ogive design was to promote better feeding with M4 feedramps, not to improve terminal performance, and I've shot hundreds of rounds with T1 bullets in rifles with and without M4 feedramps and have never had a problem with feeding. Let's keep this discussion here and not in the Heavy OTM thread, I didn't realize you posted this in both threads. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/1/2011 5:57:34 AM EDT
[#31]
I'll keep the discussion in this thread, I just saw similar questions in that thread. No problem.
I never thought there was anything wrong with the .223 TAP. I really don't even think the 5.56 TAP would be that popular on here if people could actually buy it. However, if the bullets need to be traveling x fps to perform as advertised, and there is one load at x+200 and one at x+400, I think most are going to feel like they are missing out on something by going with the slower one. The accuracy might make a difference at long distances, but up close and personal I'm sure it won't make much at all. By the charts and measured velocities, it looks like either would be fine out to 250-300 yards, which is way beyond what most would use it for anyway. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/1/2011 9:31:02 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
However, if the bullets need to be traveling x fps to perform as advertised, and there is one load at x+200 and one at x+400, I think most are going to feel like they are missing out on something by going with the slower one. Exactly. People feel like they're missing out on something if they don't have the latest gee-whiz round, whether it's 5.56 TAP or Superformance, when in reality the plane-jane, cheaper, more readily available .223 TAP uses a bullet that's got the same terminal performance at appropriate velocities, and functions at those velocities waaaaay beyond what anyone could reasonably expect in a self-defense scenario. But because it's not what the cops get, or it's not OMG Superformance!!1!, you get people making comments like "I stock up on M193 because I can never find 5.56 TAP". It's not even a case of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good enough, it's like letting the perfect be the enemy of the "for all intents and purposes just as perfect". IMO, people need to stop focusing on "I MUST have the latest police-only super round" and instead look at what rounds might be much more readily available and perform just as well for their purposes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/1/2011 10:59:29 AM EDT
[#33]
True, but in this case the SP rounds were a buck a box cheaper than TAP.... $16 and some change at Cheaper than Dirt.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemListing.aspx?mfgid=146&catid=110 I don't know that I'd fault anyone for buying the rounds with the latest bullet design loaded at higher velocity when it is in fact cheaper  |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/1/2011 12:00:26 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
[
As far as the T2 v. T1 bullet, I've never seen anything saying that the T2 was either intended to have or actually does have better terminal performance than the T1. The whole point of the different ogive design was to promote better feeding with M4 feedramps, not to improve terminal performance, and I've shot hundreds of rounds with T1 bullets in rifles with and without M4 feedramps and have never had a problem with feeding. . I agree 
I wouldnt call the T1 a poor anything |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2011 12:20:16 PM EDT
[#35]
So I asked Hornady directly and this is their response.
Sir/Ma'm, I was wondering if the bullet used in your new Superformance 5.56mm NATO offering (#81264) is the T2 bullet that is offered in your 5.56 TAP (#8126N). If so, what prompted this change in the Superformance bullet? Thank you for your time. V/R Shalashaska From: Hornady Manufacturing, Inc [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 4:13 PM To: tech Subject: "Technical Inquiries" Contact from Shalashaska Shalashaska, Thanks for the inquiry. Both loadings feature the T2 profile bullet. The T2 profile was designed to optimize function and feeding in M16-M4 variant guns. Thanks! |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2011 7:39:36 AM EDT
[#36]
I wonder where the perception about the T1 came from then.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2011 7:49:13 AM EDT
[#37]
I think the original loads Molon tested had the T1 bullet.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2011 8:05:56 AM EDT
[#38]
You are right !
The first batch of Superforrmace Varmint 5.56mm 75gr has the T1 bullet ( got 5 boxes still ) Superformance Match 5.56mm 75gr must be the T2 |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2011 9:59:26 AM EDT
[#39]
Why the recommendation for rifle length gas systems for this ammo?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2011 10:18:51 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Why the recommendation for rifle length gas systems for this ammo? It is recommended that to get the best functioning with Superformance ammunition in gas operated/gas piston semi-automatic or select fire guns, rifle length gas systems with 20 inch or longer barrel lengths are best for reliable firing and extraction. Any other configuration, particularly shorter barrels/gas systems are best served with the installation of an adjustable gas system, ESPECIALLY if a suppressor is to be installed. The rest of it is here ( I don't want to post too much of the text due to the copyright situation) link |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2011 10:22:28 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Why the recommendation for rifle length gas systems for this ammo? It has a longer, rounder burn time. Not the short spike of conventional propellants. Look at the area under the curve in the graph above; it is rounder, so the pressure peak stays higher for longer, thus needing longer time to complete the burn. But it gives the peak force over a longer time too, so you get more velocity out of it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2011 10:43:06 AM EDT
[#42]
I had some ammo back in 2003 that was giving me fits. Seemed like every spent case was getting stuck in the chamber with the rim ripped through. Can't remember what kind of ammo it was, some kind of mil surplus from overseas, but through a series of pm's with Troy, the old ammo mod, we figured out that the pressure curve of the powder was such that when the carbine-length system was trying to extract the shell, the chamber pressure hadn't dropped yet and the case was still expanded in the chamber. Sure enough, I tried the ammo in a rifle with a 20-inch barrel and rifle-length gas system and it ran like a top. Sounds like the same kind of issue with the Superformance. The longer pressure curve needs a longer gas system to allow pressure to drop.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2011 8:26:53 PM EDT
[#43]
I tested some Hornady BTHP 75gr: My test
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2011 9:27:49 PM EDT
[#44]
Hornady NEEDS to release this powder for reloaders!
Absolutly NO pressure signs at all! Quoted:
Quoted:
Now, I haven't tested either of these yet (I have a 20" 1x8 and a 16" 1x9 gun I want to try them in) but if this is the case, I fail to see a reason why the Super-performance isn't desirable instead of the .223 TAP or even the hard to find 5.56 TAP. Thoughts? Because faster doesn't necessarily mean better. The reality is that for home defense purposes, there's not even a legitimate need for the 5.56 TAP; the .223 goes plenty fast for fragmentation at the ranges you'd be dealing with. Accuracy has been pretty crappy in all the Superformance reports I've seen, and while it might not be critical for home defense purposes, it makes a difference if you plan on using the ammo for anything else (like varmint hunting, etc). I'd really rather stockpile ammo that I'm confident in for multiple purposes, so accuracy matters to me. As far as the T2 v. T1 bullet, I've never seen anything saying that the T2 was either intended to have or actually does have better terminal performance than the T1. The whole point of the different ogive design was to promote better feeding with M4 feedramps, not to improve terminal performance, and I've shot hundreds of rounds with T1 bullets in rifles with and without M4 feedramps and have never had a problem with feeding. Let's keep this discussion here and not in the Heavy OTM thread, I didn't realize you posted this in both threads. Going off of memory here but I swear someone posted sub moa groups using the 75gr superformance ammo a few months ago. (ETA: Look at that he posted right before me) As for need for 5.56, if I had an SBR I would want every extra fps I could get |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/4/2011 2:39:49 AM EDT
[#45]
FAB-10_Guy and AJE, thanks. Guess I won't use this stuff in my middy.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/4/2011 5:58:26 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: FAB-10_Guy and AJE, thanks. Guess I won't use this stuff in my middy. I'm still going to see how it works in my carbine.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/4/2011 6:54:48 AM EDT
[#47]
I would really like to see you shoot 10 round groups. Can ya do that? I ordered some more .223 75 gr TAP and will be doing more 10 round groups. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/5/2011 10:05:00 PM EDT
[#48]
Here is a 10rd group from my gun at 100 yards...
 The barrel was pretty heated at this point, I'm going to try it again later with another 10 out of the same gun with a cold barrel, and out of my carbine. The line you notice from the top left to bottom right was one round after another, straight down that line. For comparison, this is 75gr .223 TAP out of the same gun, immediately before the SP group:  |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/6/2011 1:00:02 AM EDT
[#49]
So, uh, what are the group sizes? That 75 gr Hornady TAP group looks pretty good.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/6/2011 2:34:43 AM EDT
[#50]
I was short on time so I didn't sit down and measure them... SP about 4", TAP about 1.5".
eta Here is the link to my other thread, I tried several loads. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=537562&page=2 |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
