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Posted: 10/20/2009 11:05:46 AM EDT
[#1]
The designation Mk 2Z (British) means it's loaded to pressures rivaling Hirtenberg L7A1 (+P+) ammo for use in SMG's.
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Posted: 10/20/2009 11:55:57 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
MK2Z SMC Berdan primed. Selling for $0.20 a round. Anyone tried this Paki ammo yet? I might have to take a chance on 500 rounds at that price. 2Z, or 2 Zed, ammo is far above normal NATO pressure for 9x19. Some British lots averaged 48,000 PSIA. That is right around 9x19 Proof level. What are you going to be shooting this ammo out of? An AR carbine should have no issues, but out of pistols...it depends upon which one. |
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Posted: 10/20/2009 12:37:09 PM EDT
[#3]
An HK-94 can handle it, right?
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Posted: 10/20/2009 12:59:23 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
An HK-94 can handle it, right? Yup. No worries. Now, is Paki QC up to the same std. as NATO? |
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Posted: 10/20/2009 8:44:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Paki issue? Probably meant for Sten's and Sterlings. Hope it didn't destroy too many old FN & Inglis Hi-Powers.
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Posted: 10/21/2009 1:48:15 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: An HK-94 can handle it, right? It can handle it but it will most definitely put more wear and tear on your gun. That's why the French upgraded their MP5's, because they use high pressure +P+ ammo in the realm POF and Hirtenberg - it was beating the guns to death. |
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Posted: 10/21/2009 9:20:01 AM EDT
[#7]
I was going to order some to give a try. Figure why not? I've got a couple of sub guns to feed it too.
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Posted: 10/21/2009 11:00:22 AM EDT
[#8]
Any issues with this ammo in an UZI smg?
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Posted: 10/21/2009 11:02:05 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Any issues with this ammo in an UZI smg? I've used it in my Mini, runs fast(er).  |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 1:18:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Has anyone tried feeding it through pistols yet? ie Glock, Beretta, Sig, etc
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Posted: 11/2/2009 5:26:59 AM EDT
[#11]
Any pistols rated for +P+ ammo?
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Posted: 11/2/2009 5:42:15 AM EDT
[#12]
Damn it I bought 2 boxes of this crap for range fodder. I hope my XD does not explode.
further research shows the subgun ammo made by marked "Skz" insted of "2z" any truth to this? |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 8:31:53 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Damn it I bought 2 boxes of this crap for range fodder. I hope my XD does not explode.
further research shows the subgun ammo made by marked "Skz" insted of "2z" any truth to this? You could buy a Jennings or High Point 9mm and conduct a stress test. That might be interesting. 
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Posted: 11/2/2009 9:38:14 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Damn it I bought 2 boxes of this crap for range fodder. I hope my XD does not explode.
further research shows the subgun ammo made by marked "Skz" insted of "2z" any truth to this? You could buy a Jennings or High Point 9mm and conduct a stress test. That might be interesting.
lots of pics and video plz 
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Posted: 11/3/2009 5:18:34 AM EDT
[#15]
I need this stuff for my Smith and Wesson Model 76 sub-machine-gun (a gun that was actually in service at Parchment Prison, MS a long time ago)
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Posted: 11/13/2009 3:12:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Just shot 150rds of this thru my glock 17. Def can tell the that there is more powder. I'm sure it puts more wear and tear on guns.
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Posted: 11/24/2009 1:30:51 PM EDT
[#17]
Sportsman's Guide has started selling it too. I beleive they should really notify their customers that this stuff is "hot" ammo and may accelerate wear on their guns.
If you buy 2500 rounds & are in the buyer's club, it drops down to $0.18 a round. Maybe be the cheapest sub-gun fodder you see in a while. |
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Posted: 11/24/2009 2:48:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Any pistols rated for +P+ ammo? IIRC, Ruger claims in their P-89 manual that the pistol is rated for any and all 9mm ammunition made. If that turns out not to be true, you're not out much $$$ either. That being said, I will not touch Pakistani ammo with a 10 foot pole. Read too many horror stories. No thank you. When I initially saw this ammo for sale I was intrigued before I saw the country of origin...figured I might pick some up for that price. When I saw it was Paki I laughed audibly and closed the tab. I'll stick to Federal from Wal-Mart. It's basically the same price anyway... |
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Posted: 11/24/2009 3:15:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Originally Posted By ––bullseye––:
Quoted:
Any pistols rated for +P+ ammo? IIRC, Ruger claims in their P-89 manual that the pistol is rated for any and all 9mm ammunition made. If that turns out not to be true, you're not out much $$$ either.
That being said, I will not touch Pakistani ammo with a 10 foot pole. Read too many horror stories. No thank you. When I initially saw this ammo for sale I was intrigued before I saw the country of origin...figured I might pick some up for that price. When I saw it was Paki I laughed audibly and closed the tab. I'll stick to Federal from Wal-Mart. It's basically the same price anyway... It is? Damn. I need to come to your walmart. 
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Posted: 11/24/2009 3:18:42 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Originally Posted By ––bullseye––: Quoted: Any pistols rated for +P+ ammo? IIRC, Ruger claims in their P-89 manual that the pistol is rated for any and all 9mm ammunition made. If that turns out not to be true, you're not out much $$$ either. That being said, I will not touch Pakistani ammo with a 10 foot pole. Read too many horror stories. No thank you. When I initially saw this ammo for sale I was intrigued before I saw the country of origin...figured I might pick some up for that price. When I saw it was Paki I laughed audibly and closed the tab. I'll stick to Federal from Wal-Mart. It's basically the same price anyway... It is? Damn. I need to come to your walmart. $9.97 per box box of 50. It's 115 gr. FMJ...basically replaced Blazer Brass on the shelf. I liked it better when they carried Blazer Brass, because it was $8.97 per box. WWB is still $19.97 per 100. |
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Posted: 11/24/2009 7:41:01 PM EDT
[#21]
I guess its close. But the SG at .18 plus shipping of $35(to me anyway) still puts it at .194 to my front door. Wally world by me bumped up the WWB to $22.97, even the fed at $9.97 per 50 plus 6% sales tax is over that. Yeah, I'm spliting hairs. But every round counts.
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Posted: 11/28/2009 10:17:16 AM EDT
[#22]
I got a few boxes of this from sportsmansguide this week. I haven't shot it yet, but pulled the bullet on one when it arrived and found that it was loaded with a 115gr hollow-base bullet, not a 124gr bullet like the ads at Samco and Sportsmansguide state.
-Allen |
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Posted: 11/28/2009 1:56:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Thank God i saw this!
I was about to pick up 500rds for my brand new Springfield XD9! If this is +p+ ammo, could i possibly use a max of 250 rounds in my XD9?? I was able to get 100 rounds at walmart and thats all i got! my xd is coming in a week which is why im wondering if i could use this. |
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Posted: 11/28/2009 6:56:19 PM EDT
[#24]
I wouldn't. Its not meant for pistols. Sure, it might work fine, but how much extra stress is it going to cause your gun? When will you reach that "one round too many"? I wouldn't risk it.
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Posted: 11/28/2009 7:02:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
I wouldn't. Its not meant for pistols. Sure, it might work fine, but how much extra stress is it going to cause your gun? When will you reach that "one round too many"? I wouldn't risk it. OK, i was about to order some because i can get about 300-400 rounds for $.10/rd. I have accumultaed many $10 coupons for the sportsmanguide from friends that dont use them. |
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Posted: 12/3/2009 8:30:44 PM EDT
[#26]
I got some of this ammo today from a co worker. I helped him reduce the trigger pull of his Sigma, so he gave me a deal on some of this stuff that he just got in.
I've been a little cautious with POF stuff ever since I bought some of their crappy .308 stuff. I wasn't impressed with their .308 ammo to say the least. I ck'd their web site, and the 2Z 9mm ammo is suppose to be 395 meters per second. 395 meters = 1296 fps Federals web site show the following 124gn American Eagle = 1150 fps 115gn American Eagle = 1106 fps Buffalo Bores web site shows 124gn +P = 1225 fps 124gn +P+ = 1300 fps Ck out this link to Buffalo Bore's Web Site in regards to +P, and +P+ ammo I hope this helps some of you. I'll try some of this stuff out in my CZ's, but I don't think I'll be entertaining any 100+ round count range visits with it. DBAR |
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Posted: 12/4/2009 9:54:37 AM EDT
[#27]
I wouldn't shoot it out of any of my hand guns. It is a hot ammo, made for sub guns(or at least carbines with a heavy bolt). But I guess its your life, do with it as you please.
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Posted: 12/4/2009 12:16:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
I wouldn't shoot it out of any of my hand guns. It is a hot ammo, made for sub guns(or at least carbines with a heavy bolt). But I guess its your life, do with it as you please. From what i have benn reading that is completely FALSE. The POF website most likely is making it seem much faster then it really is. Have a look at these two links. Where NATO 9mm parabellum is listed Where it shows Paki subgun ammo POF makes two varients of 9mm. If it says 9mm 2z on the brass casing, it is 9mm parabellum meant for handguns. The 9mm in the second link is supposed to be P-2 Mk-2z, which is for subguns |
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Posted: 12/4/2009 12:54:31 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
I wouldn't shoot it out of any of my hand guns. It is a hot ammo, made for sub guns(or at least carbines with a heavy bolt). But I guess its your life, do with it as you please. Have you shot any of this ammo? |
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Posted: 12/4/2009 1:23:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Also the POF website doesn NOT list the bullet weight, i have read that people have pulled the bullets and they are 115gr, so 115gr at 1300fps isnt nearly as bad.
Im guessing the 124gr either came from the stores translating something wrong, or just seeing NATO and said 124gr. What was the NATO specs back in the 70's? Could it have possibly been 115gr? I have also read reports that while the origin is pakistani, it was manufactured under the control of the British I just found this too: Here are the specs for US M882 9mm ball (suitable for use in the M9 as well as in most subguns):
Cartridge designation: US M882 ball Cartridge OAL:1.165inches or 29.591mm Powder used: HPC-26 Powder weight used: 6.0 grains Case Mouth Pressure: 31,175psi (avg), 36,250psi (max) Bullet weight: 112 grains Bullet length: .610 inches or 15.494mm Bullet velocity: 1263fps measured @ 15 feet These specs are from 1980-1985 when the US adopted the 9mm Luger. Note that the POF was manufactured in the 1980's If this is truly what the POF is then it shouldnt be nearly as hot as some of you are suggesting as these US specs use a 112gr bullet. |
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Posted: 12/4/2009 3:54:58 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Also the POF website doesn NOT list the bullet weight, i have read that people have pulled the bullets and they are 115gr, so 115gr at 1300fps isnt nearly as bad. Im guessing the 124gr either came from the stores translating something wrong, or just seeing NATO and said 124gr. What was the NATO specs back in the 70's? Could it have possibly been 115gr? I have also read reports that while the origin is pakistani, it was manufactured under the control of the British I just found this too: Here are the specs for US M882 9mm ball (suitable for use in the M9 as well as in most subguns):
Cartridge designation: US M882 ball Cartridge OAL:1.165inches or 29.591mm Powder used: HPC-26 Powder weight used: 6.0 grains Case Mouth Pressure: 31,175psi (avg), 36,250psi (max) Bullet weight: 112 grains Bullet length: .610 inches or 15.494mm Bullet velocity: 1263fps measured @ 15 feet These specs are from 1980-1985 when the US adopted the 9mm Luger. Note that the POF was manufactured in the 1980's If this is truly what the POF is then it shouldnt be nearly as hot as some of you are suggesting as these US specs use a 112gr bullet. The M882 isnt as hot as one thinks either. The fps was measured using a 7.5" test barrel to get 1,230. Molon has posted his chrony results from an M9 and it wasn't anything to drool over. |
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Posted: 12/4/2009 4:19:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Also the POF website doesn NOT list the bullet weight, i have read that people have pulled the bullets and they are 115gr, so 115gr at 1300fps isnt nearly as bad. Im guessing the 124gr either came from the stores translating something wrong, or just seeing NATO and said 124gr. What was the NATO specs back in the 70's? Could it have possibly been 115gr? I have also read reports that while the origin is pakistani, it was manufactured under the control of the British I just found this too: Here are the specs for US M882 9mm ball (suitable for use in the M9 as well as in most subguns):
Cartridge designation: US M882 ball Cartridge OAL:1.165inches or 29.591mm Powder used: HPC-26 Powder weight used: 6.0 grains Case Mouth Pressure: 31,175psi (avg), 36,250psi (max) Bullet weight: 112 grains Bullet length: .610 inches or 15.494mm Bullet velocity: 1263fps measured @ 15 feet These specs are from 1980-1985 when the US adopted the 9mm Luger. Note that the POF was manufactured in the 1980's If this is truly what the POF is then it shouldnt be nearly as hot as some of you are suggesting as these US specs use a 112gr bullet. The M882 isnt as hot as one thinks either. The fps was measured using a 7.5" test barrel to get 1,230. Molon has posted his chrony results from an M9 and it wasn't anything to drool over. Thats my point. The manufactureers make their ammo seem REALLY hot. Plus the POF could very well be 112-115gr bullet going at 1295fps |
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Posted: 12/4/2009 5:54:31 PM EDT
[#33]
I pulled one of the bullets, and it weighed 116 grains, but there are traces of sealant on the projectile, so I'm betting their 115 gns.
I'll post back after I shoot a few, maybe Sunday? I don't own a chronograph, but if their claims are correct, then this stuff is closer to +P loads, not +P+. If that's the case, then damcv62 can relax a little. DBAR |
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Posted: 12/4/2009 6:23:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
I pulled one of the bullets, and it weighed 116 grains, but there are traces of sealant on the projectile, so I'm betting their 115 gns. I'll post back after I shoot a few, maybe Sunday? I don't own a chronograph, but if their claims are correct, then this stuff is closer to +P loads, not +P+. If that's the case, then damcv62 can relax a little. DBAR If thats the case i may have to bump my order from 500rds to 1000. Thanks! |
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Posted: 12/5/2009 8:19:08 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I wouldn't shoot it out of any of my hand guns. It is a hot ammo, made for sub guns(or at least carbines with a heavy bolt). But I guess its your life, do with it as you please. Have you shot any of this ammo? Yes. A good bit threw an Uzi and a MAC. The guns run faster with this ammo over 115gr WWB. |
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Posted: 12/5/2009 8:21:10 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
I pulled one of the bullets, and it weighed 116 grains, but there are traces of sealant on the projectile, so I'm betting their 115 gns. I'll post back after I shoot a few, maybe Sunday? I don't own a chronograph, but if their claims are correct, then this stuff is closer to +P loads, not +P+. If that's the case, then damcv62 can relax a little. DBAR Like I said, I could care less. Its your life. What you do with it is your choice. What I do with mine is my choice. I'm very relaxed. Just getting ready to order another rifle. What is more relaxing then gun shopping? |
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Posted: 12/13/2009 2:03:09 PM EDT
[#37]
I shot some of this stuff today. It all went bang, and it doesn't seem any hotter than any other current production ammo. I think the flash retardent in the powder is breaking down, 6 out of every 10 shots had a pretty big flash. It worked fine in my CZ85 Combat. I guess it's ok stuff for the range.
DBAR |
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Posted: 12/13/2009 3:02:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
I shot some of this stuff today. It all went bang, and it doesn't seem any hotter than any other current production ammo. I think the flash retardent in the powder is breaking down, 6 out of every 10 shots had a pretty big flash. It worked fine in my CZ85 Combat. I guess it's ok stuff for the range. DBAR Same exact thing here. Except one didnt fire, but the second time i put it through they did fire. It seems that the 1970's stuff from thesportsmansguide is pretty good, compared to the 1980's stuff from other websites. All the bad things that i have heard were from the 1980's batches. The ammo from the sportsman's guide has harder primers. I didnt notice any more recoil from the POF when compared to winchester whitebox 115gr. 
Again it seems like the POF 9mm from sportsmansguide is pretty good, while the POF 9mm from the other websites is very un reliable. |
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Posted: 12/24/2009 8:34:58 AM EDT
[#39]
I posted this over at Calguns, and they linked me to this thread:
I buy a fair amount of ammo for the range. I try to save some money by buying a deal when I see it. I decided to try some of the 9mm, 115gr, FMJ that ATG was selling. I bought 1000 rnds. Yesterday was first chance I got to try some of it. I took 250 rnds to the range, and shot it out of a full size S&W M&P 9mm. I've had this pistol for about 2 years, and it has been 100% reliable, no matter what I was feeding it (like FMJ, JHP, 115/124/147gr, reloads bought at the range, etc).
The Pakistani ammo is most unreliable ammo I have ever shot. I had lots of problems. Some loads were very HOT. Some, the bullet barely made it down range. Some produced a huge fire plume at the end of the barrel, and some just a few sparks. Some felt like magnum loads, others felt like a .22. I must have had to manually clear the pistol about 30 times (FTE). The ammo is dirty, and it smells different. Took me an extra half-hour to get the pistol cleaned up after shooting. I bought the ammo because it was cheap...yes, I know, "Cheap is dear". I just thought others should what to expect. I do NOT recommend this ammo for any purpose. I have been reading that this ammo is rated for higher pressures? I shot a few that felt like "magnum" rounds, but there a LOT more that did not. It did not do any visual or operational damage to my M&P (that I could see or feel). Just wondering if I should really use the rest of this or get rid of it somehow? |
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Posted: 12/24/2009 8:42:29 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
I posted this over at Calguns, and they linked me to this thread: I buy a fair amount of ammo for the range. I try to save some money by buying a deal when I see it. I decided to try some of the 9mm, 115gr, FMJ that ATG was selling. I bought 1000 rnds. Yesterday was first chance I got to try some of it. I took 250 rnds to the range, and shot it out of a full size S&W M&P 9mm. I've had this pistol for about 2 years, and it has been 100% reliable, no matter what I was feeding it (like FMJ, JHP, 115/124/147gr, reloads bought at the range, etc).
The Pakistani ammo is most unreliable ammo I have ever shot. I had lots of problems. Some loads were very HOT. Some, the bullet barely made it down range. Some produced a huge fire plume at the end of the barrel, and some just a few sparks. Some felt like magnum loads, others felt like a .22. I must have had to manually clear the pistol about 30 times (FTE). The ammo is dirty, and it smells different. Took me an extra half-hour to get the pistol cleaned up after shooting. I bought the ammo because it was cheap...yes, I know, "Cheap is dear". I just thought others should what to expect. I do NOT recommend this ammo for any purpose. I have been reading that this ammo is rated for higher pressures? I shot a few that felt like "magnum" rounds, but there a LOT more that did not. It did not do any visual or operational damage to my M&P (that I could see or feel). Just wondering if I should really use the rest of this or get rid of it somehow? Where did you order from? The sportsmansguide stuff is a completly different lot and is 10 years older, I have 550rds from sportsmans guide, but i have not had any of the problems or inconsistencies that people are getting from the POF ordered from places other then sportsmansguide. The only problem i had was one didnt fire the first time, but fired the second time, they appear to have somewhat hard primers. From the 80rds i have fired they all felt the same and fired and functioned the same. |
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Posted: 12/24/2009 9:27:02 AM EDT
[#41]
Sorry, I just double checked. It is the POF 124gr from Sportsmans Guide.
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Posted: 12/24/2009 10:54:35 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Sorry, I just double checked. It is the POF 124gr from Sportsmans Guide. The stuff from them has been flawless for me except the one that didnt go off the first time but did the second. It seems to be consistent too, all of them had the same kick. This stuff is GTG |
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Posted: 12/24/2009 4:55:53 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sorry, I just double checked. It is the POF 124gr from Sportsmans Guide. The stuff from them has been flawless for me except the one that didnt go off the first time but did the second. It seems to be consistent too, all of them had the same kick. This stuff is GTG Interesting that yours was. The stuff I got is definately not. In fact, it's terrible. |
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Posted: 12/24/2009 6:31:32 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sorry, I just double checked. It is the POF 124gr from Sportsmans Guide. The stuff from them has been flawless for me except the one that didnt go off the first time but did the second. It seems to be consistent too, all of them had the same kick. This stuff is GTG Interesting that yours was. The stuff I got is definately not. In fact, it's terrible. What year? |
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Posted: 12/26/2009 8:26:19 AM EDT
[#45]
The brass says POF 2Z 87
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Posted: 12/26/2009 10:12:27 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
The brass says POF 2Z 87 Are you sure you got it from sportsmansguide??? The stuff from sportsmansguide is 1970's manufacture and mine was marked '76 like in the picture above |
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Posted: 12/26/2009 4:36:00 PM EDT
[#47]
Yes, quite positive. Order from Sprtsmans Guide on 11-17-09. Pakistani 124gr, FMJ, 9mm.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/G2034/Brasspost.jpg |
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Posted: 12/26/2009 4:39:53 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Yes, quite positive. Order from Sprtsmans Guide on 11-17-09. Pakistani 124gr, FMJ, 9mm. http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/G2034/Brasspost.jpg All of the POF 9mm advertized on their site after 12-01-09 has been advertised as 1970's. I ordered december 10-11 and got 550rds of all 1970's their website now says 1970's production. 1970s-production Pakistani Ammo loaded to exacting standards.
As i said before it seems like the 1970's stuff is really consistent and doesnt have the problems the 1980's stuff has. |
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Posted: 12/27/2009 7:06:33 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Yes, quite positive. Order from Sprtsmans Guide on 11-17-09. Pakistani 124gr, FMJ, 9mm. http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/G2034/Brasspost.jpg I don't put much stock in customer service from SG from my own experiences and those of others I have read about here but maybe you can give them a call and get them to replace the crap they sent you with new stuff or just send you a refund. If they are advertising 70's and sent you 80's that is their problem. |
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Posted: 12/30/2009 2:39:27 PM EDT
[#50]
Just got back from the range with an interesting find.
This ammo is pretty accurate. But i didn't measure groups or anything, its better then i can shoot. The 1970's stuff I have is definitely NOT for subguns. Since the WWB 115gr i was firing was noticeably hotter. |
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