Quoted: Nevermind.  Reread the post -- pierced primers do not equal blown primers.  My bad.  I do wonder though how a crimped in primer can blow.

It happened a lot here.  Guys were running Q3131a thru Bushy Varminteers.  It was a common discussion a while back.

FALARAK, I know you reload.  Try seating a new primer in one of your Wolf cases and let us know if the pocket is still reasonably tight or if the primer seats with little resistance.

I might try this tonight!  I'm curious about this myself as I plan to reload these cases.

With a crimped primer that blows, does the pocket expand so much that the crimp no longer contains the primer, or does the primer morph into some odd shape that slips through the crimp?  I've never experienced this so I just can't picture how it would happen.  

I could visulaize the pocket expanding a tad, but I always thought that the crimp would have contained/captured the primer and prevented it from backing out.

I thought primers were crimped on military rounds to keep the primers from coming out with the hot loads, so I too am puzzled as to exactly how they come out.  

IIRC the BM Varminter has a .223 chamber, so I'm not surprised that Q3131A had issues in those.  

Say you get a warm one, around 60,000 PSI, little crimps ain't going to hold the primer in.

Quoted: IIRC the BM Varminter has a .223 chamber, so I'm not surprised that Q3131A had issues in those.

You are correct!  That's why it was a common thread a while back.  I'm not sure what the Crimp is supposed to accomplish - I guess it's just an added measure to try to keep primers in the normal pressure range seated.  When I decap Crimped cases on my reloader, I CAN'T feel even a slight difference in pressure required to push the primer out.

Quoted: Say you get a warm one, around 60,000 PSI, little crimps ain't going to hold the primer in.

Hell no.  I had a Oly with a .223 SAAMI chamber, and I would blow primer after primer out of those, using South African and Q3131A, before I knew any better.  

Crimps *help* hold them in place, but damned sure dont keep them from blowing.  It is rare to blow a crimped primer in a quality NATO spec chambered barrel, but it does happen every once in a while.  Run that same ammo in a SAAMI chamber, and watch what happens.

Quoted: When I decap Crimped cases on my reloader, I CAN'T feel even a slight difference in pressure required to push the primer out.

Me neither - decapping crimped or uncrimps primers is almost undetectable to me on the press arm.

However - try to prime one with a crimp.  BIG difference.  

Well, you do have a lot of weight and leverage on your side and you are using large, relatively insensitive muscles to manipulate it.  Primers have virtually no weight, and no leverage.  Crimps do make a big difference.  We'd all be blowing MANY more primers on milspec loads without them.  But no, they will not stop all primers from popping.

I dunno.  When I deprime crimped in primers, sometimes I hear a "tink" sound, plus there is some slight additional resistance.  It's hard to describe, but it's definintely different than when depriming cases where the crimp has been swaged or reamed out.

Oly thats crazy talk

Quoted: However - try to prime one with a crimp.  BIG difference.

Yup.  Done that a couple times.  That's an undeniable feeling.

Quoted: Oly thats crazy talk

Strong emphasis on the word "had".  

HAD  Still crazy Talk

probably a dumb question but has anyone had problems with wolf "steel cased "ammo

short stroking a 20 in?

i am just courious...?

Quoted: probably a dumb question but has anyone had problems with wolf "steel cased "ammo short stroking a 20 in? i am just courious...?

I have.. that's how I initially found AR15.com. I was looking for answers to why rifle kept "jamming". Haven't been the same since

thanks,
Ron

Quoted: probably a dumb question but has anyone had problems with wolf "steel cased "ammo short stroking a 20 in? i am just courious...?

Yeah.  That would be a completely different round from a different plant in a different country.  The M193 round in question is supposed to be a higher quality ammo.

Quoted: probably a dumb question but has anyone had problems with wolf "steel cased "ammo short stroking a 20 in? i am just courious...?

Go start your own Wolf thread.  

Ok - I sized 10 pieces of brass today.  I gauged them all first - they all looked like normal brass, the shoulder needed to be bumped back a bit, as the head was just out of the case gauge.  Lubed them and ran them through my Redding FL sizer.

Nothing special, everything felt normal.

Here is a comparison of fired brass (on the left) with unfired brass:

PIC1

PIC2

PIC3

Note - you can see some ejector flow, and some narrowing of the letters - indicating some pressure.  I can't say this is extremely excessive or not, however.... I am no expert.  I do look for ejector flow as a sign of pressure.... light loads never have it, but it is not uncommon on heavy .mil pressure loads I have shot in the past.

The primers were the weirdest - I dont know if these are super soft cups, or incredible crimps, or what, but they do balloon out like nothing I have seen, when the decapping rod hits them.

On the left you see a decapped live Winchester primer, center - Wolf M193 live decapped, and on the right, the fired/decapped Wolf primers:

PIC4

(the little "nipple" you see in the center of the fired primers is where I have a little erosion on my firing pin... apparently at some point in the past I pierced a primer or two.)


I did try and seat a primer in a couple of fired cases - wouldnt even start - the leftover crimp requires swaging just like any other crimped M193.

Cool

Great post.  Those primers are sorta funky.  I've never seen anything like that before.  

Quoted: The primers were the weirdest - I dont know if these are super soft cups, or incredible crimps, or what, but they do balloon out like nothing I have seen, when the decapping rod hits them.

That's what I'm talking about, Sailor!  I looked into my punched firing pin cup and thought WTF??

We've obviously reached the point where we're going to have to Fly FALARAK to the plant for a meeting with top management.  Get your passport ready.

Those primers are certainly balooned!  I've only occasionally seen primers do that, and then only one or two out of hundreds.  What was depriming effort like on these?

Great review

Quoted: Those primers are certainly balooned!  I've only occasionally seen primers do that, and then only one or two out of hundreds.  What was depriming effort like on these?

I honestly cant tell.  I went really slow... but a rockchucker is so massive, that it just pops primers out with no force at all.  The crimp on the Q3131A I deprimed was more substantial, showing more torn brass around the primer area from decapping - and did not balloon.... so I'd have to say these things are not hard at all.  My CCI and federal primers dont do this either.

Quoted: Quoted: Those primers are certainly balooned!  I've only occasionally seen primers do that, and then only one or two out of hundreds.  What was depriming effort like on these? I honestly cant tell.  I went really slow... but a rockchucker is so massive, that it just pops primers out with no force at all.  The crimp on the Q3131A I deprimed was more substantial, showing more torn brass around the primer area from decapping - and did not balloon.... so I'd have to say these things are not hard at all.  My CCI and federal primers dont do this either.

Which is even more strange, cuz they don't flatten out much!  There are other signs of pressure on the cases, but no Flat primers.

wierd as hell

so is this stuff good or not?

iam really confused right now?          

Quoted: so is this stuff good or not? iam really confused right now?

I really think we need to hear more reports from other users.  It is really too new.  Without question, it has shown to have some issues, in some peoples 20" rifles.  FTE, blown primer, and short stroking were all reported.  It appears to run better in some peoples shorter barrels thus far.

From the review thread:  www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=169729

It appears to be ranked in the middle of commonly available ammunition, with a 79% approval rating.  But this is only with 38 users reporting.  Hardly a sample size.

Quoted: Quoted: Those primers are certainly balooned!  I've only occasionally seen primers do that, and then only one or two out of hundreds.  What was depriming effort like on these? I honestly cant tell.  I went really slow... but a rockchucker is so massive, that it just pops primers out with no force at all.  The crimp on the Q3131A I deprimed was more substantial, showing more torn brass around the primer area from decapping - and did not balloon.... so I'd have to say these things are not hard at all.  My CCI and federal primers dont do this either.

Roger on the Rock Chucker; mine handles everything I throw at it.  I'd also concur with your conclusion about the cup hardness-or maybe "toughness"- from your experience with the Israeli-made ammo.

Yes, we need more people to test this stuff out to see how uniform things like primers and crimps are.  Yes indeed!  Now I have to find the stuff around San Antonio!

I'm anxiously awaiting to buy some as well once more info is available.  As I read these posts I have to ask: why would an ammo such as this perform better in a shorter barrel? This was mentioned above. Does the shorter gas tube make the difference as far as FTE is concerned? Is this the one case where shorter is Better?

Quoted: Is this the one case where shorter is Better?

For this ammo..  YES in my opinion.

I stand corrected - it short strokes in some 16" rifles as well:

Quoted: Had a bad day today with this ammo. I started out with a clean/properly lubed gun, put 30 rounds Q3131 through it, then 30 rounds reloaded black hills 55gr FMJ. Next was 30 rounds of this Wolf M193, ran flawless and i was thinking it was great ammo. Then came the next mag full... I had 20 out of 25 rounds (loaded mag to 25) that i had to manually cycle, almost half of the time the bolt would return and lock up without stripping another round. Next mag, same thing.  So I ran various ammo through it (Ultramax reload, more Q3131, cheap winchester .223 bulk pack stuff) everything else ran fine, i only have 5 mags so i was mixing them up and none of the mags had failures of any type with the various ammo. I tried the Wolf one more time and hand cycled every round. All of this out of a low round count (maybe not completely broke in) Bushie 16" I will attempt to clean and shoot it again this weekend, but this stuff is more than likely going up for sale. My gun simply doesn't like it, and it hasn't had a single hiccup in the ~500 rounds it's had. Edit to add:  The brass did seem to fly as far as Q3131, but not consistant at ALL. It was all over the place, and i can predict within 6" where all my other ammo will fall in a neat little pile. Also the brass markings on the case deflecter were not near the tip on all the Wolf ammo... (ie: near the center of the deflecter instead of the very outer edge)

So, ammo experts - this is similar to what markm saw - first mag flawless, after that, horrible.

Now what in the hell can cause that???  It aintl like a mag gets the gun dirty.  And his gun was already warmed up from shooting other stuff.  This is making less and less sense.

Quoted: As I read these posts I have to ask: why would an ammo such as this perform better in a shorter barrel? This was mentioned above. Does the shorter gas tube make the difference as far as FTE is concerned? Is this the one case where shorter is Better?

I have been thinking through on this one for days.  At this stage all of us are guessing (at least I am).  One possibility, and I'll admit it is a wild stretch, could be a secondary pressure spike caused by a too slow powder.

In a classic powder burn the rise time to max pressure is a pretty steep climb, a peak, and a gradual drop off of pressure until the bullet exits the barrel.  The rise time occurs in fgactions of a millisecond, and depending upon barrel length, bullet exit usually occurs around 1.5 milliseconds.  All the while the bullet accelerates the whole way down the barrel because it's got good steady pressure buildup and decline behind it.

In some cases though, with too slow of a pwoder, the bullet can essentially outrun the burn.  What happens is the the bullet initially accelerates, but there isn't enough pressure to keep the powder burning all the way through (it's pretty well known that slow powders need the pressure to burn cleanly and uniformly).  Well, the bullet outruns the burn, pressure subsides dramtically, and the bullet begins decelerating.  Somewhere along the way the burn begins to catch back up, but instead of the bullet moving nicely down the barrel at a good clip, it's slowing down.  At this point the burn accelerates faster than the bullet re-accelerates and pressures spike, sometimes big time.  

RSI Website -- Scroll 3/4 way down to see example trace

I'm just imagining that this could be an explanation why longer barrels have more problems than the shorter barrels.  I'm theorizing that in a short enough barrel, it never gets to the point where bullet deceleration occurs accompanied by the burn catching back up and spiking.  But it might be happening in 20" barrels, and if this theory has any mnrit, it should really show up in 24" Varminter barrels.

Again, this is just a WAG.  The other obvious explanation is the powder is to quick - the burn is pretty much classic textbook, but the burn is complete too early down the barrel and perssures are insufficient at the port for cycling.  And the last guess is crappy barss that's too soft, but again, I'd expect problems in all barrel configs if the brass were too soft.

One thing we do know though is that pressures in these cases are pretty high.  This ain't a wimpy load, we can see from the blown primer and the imprint of the ejector marks on the casehead that pressures are high.  What I can't tell though is where is the pressure spike occuring, way early or too late.

Just a thought.

I'm in the camp believing the powder is on the fast side. It sounds like in the 20" guns, there just isn't enough port pressure to reliably cycle. The carbines, for the most part, run fine on it because the gas port is closer to the chamber.

This has the potential to be great M193 ammo with a little tweaking from the manufacturer. Since our other sources have all but dried up, I'm hoping the bugs will be worked out and we'll have a reasonably priced source of new production M193.

For now, I'm stocking it for my 16" gun. It worked well in it. I would like to try it in hot weather to make sure that's still the case after about three fast mags.

I think it is fair to say we could all theorize for 30 more pages and not have an answer.  Maybe someone with the time and inclination should just call Wolf and ask them to take a second look at their choice of powder?

tag

Sounds like perfect M4A1 ammo...


TS

Quoted: So, ammo experts - this is similar to what markm saw - first mag flawless, after that, horrible. Now what in the hell can cause that???  It aintl like a mag gets the gun dirty.  And his gun was already warmed up from shooting other stuff.  This is making less and less sense.

Exactly!

And the weird part is that the A1 rifle that wasn't working with this ammo was really clean in the bolt group.  It's NOT a fouling issue.  It's as if very little of the powder was left to EITHER cycle the weapon OR Foul the bolt group.  At first I thought it was a really clean burning powder.  But after giving it more thought, it makes sense that the bolt group would be cleaner if the powder were burning TOO FAST!

I'm still on the TOO FAST band wagon at this point.

Well, regardless of the technical problem, it's a minor issue that I hope Wolf will fix. They are in a great position to corner the M193 market right now. I hope they get the load tweaked to satisfaction and do just that.

Has anyone emailed Wolf about this?

Quoted: so is this stuff good or not? iam really confused right now?

Its good in MY AR`15`S

A1 14.7ish Bushmaster 1/9

LMT 14.5 M4 type  

24mags without a Hic Up ( use Colt 20rd mags not 30rd


It will depend on what rifle/carbean you ues!

However I do Belive that there should be more Testing Before I would say its FINE for SHTF in ALL AR15 types!  My AR15`s love it . and Very Clean/Accurate for M193




ALSO LIKE A SAID EMAIL WOLF/PP with your encounters Good or Bad!

BTW I love  how accurate and Clean it is!

But I  would like them just to use the OLD SCHOOL Ball Type powder

As noted in another thread I have 1,500 rds of this with 500 earmarked for T&E.  

I have been unable to get to the range and this weekend is cluttered up with a seminar both days. Ugh.

I suggest that those who have problems also detail any other specifics to their rifles that could be part of the issue: Enidine or other buffers, unusual spring or extractor setups, etc.  

I'm not saying that function issues have been incorrectly characterized; I just want to rule them out.

I will be running a Colt Factory 6920 upper with CMT shrouded b/c assemblies and a Colt used tele stock, spring and buffer from CMMG.  I'll use previously reliable USGI 30s as well as new DSG and HK mags for T&E.

If I am able, I will get that 20" running; 1/7 USGI A2 with Colt 1/2 circle carrier and bolt, factory A2 spring setup.  

(I'm not a Colt freak, it's just what I've got right now - the lowers are PWA and Eagle/Armalite, internals CMT.)

Also LIST THE BLUE # ON THE BOX!!!

Quoted: I suggest that those who have problems also detail any other specifics to their rifles that could be part of the issue: Enidine or other buffers, unusual spring or extractor setups, etc.

Indeed.

As for my two 20 inch guns that don't like this ammo....  Both are 100%, NO BULLSHIT, stock guns.  One is 100% Colt and the other is 100% Bushmaster.  Both Factory assembled upper halfs, not Garage hack jobs.

Was in a bit of a hurry, and will post pics later of my embarassing shoot (1st time in 4 months, about a year since I've shot an AR).  I just wanted to see if they'd run - and run with Wolf M193.  Lot PPU 0502-03.

160 rounds fired, through four rifles assembled by GotM4, who is a trained armorer.

My 20" A4, Gov't Colt A2 barrel 1/7 chrome-lined, Colt semi-shaved carrier, standard gas tube and rifle buffer.  Headshots are Q3131A, chest is Wolf M193:


My 20" A1, Gov't Colt A1 barrel, 1/12 chrome-lined, CMT shrouded carrier, standard gas tube and rifle buffer.  PP is on the L, Q3131A R, and okay, I can't shoot today:


11.5" SBR with KFH brake and Enidine buffer, not sure of other details, not my rifle. (Edit: see GotM4's post below for details)



20 ? race gun  with adjustable gas port/block ? specs (below)

The two 20" were mine, barrels newly assembled by GotM4.  Each had one magazine of Q3131A run through it in a green-follower USGI mag previously trouble-free.  No problems. This was my baseline, 30 round mags.

Each had two 30 round magazines loaded to 30 with Wolf M193 Prvi Partizan.  Feeding, ejection unremarkable.  Less 'ammonia' smell, or none, in comparison with Q3131A.  I could not tell a different in recoil, etc. - felt the same as Q3131A.  Subjective.

Accuracy a bit better than the Q3131A.  

GotM4 said it ran fine in his 11.5" SBR.  He had short-stroking in his race gun with the adjustable gas port "1/2 open."  

I admit my sample is small, but I had no problems with 20" barrels fired offhand.  

Quoted: Was in a bit of a hurry, and will post pics later of my embarassing shoot (1st time in 4 months, about a year since I've shot an AR).  I just wanted to see if they'd run - and run with Wolf M193. 160 rounds fired, through four rifles assembled by GotM4, who is a trained armorer. My 20" A4, Gov't Colt A2 barrel 1/7 chrome-lined, Colt semi-shaved carrier, standard gas tube and rifle buffer. My 20" A1, Gov't Colt A1 barrel, 1/12 chrome-lined, CMT shrouded carrier, standard gas tube and rifle buffer. 11.5" SBR with KFH brake and Enidine buffer, not sure of other details, not my rifle. 16" ? race gun  with adjustable gas port/block ? specs. The two 20" were mine, barrels newly assembled by GotM4.  Each had one magazine of Q3131A run through it in a green-follower USGI mag previously trouble-free.  No problems. This was my baseline, 30 round mags. Each had two 30 round magazines loaded to 30 with Wolf M193 Prvi Partizan.  Feeding, ejection unremarkable.  Less 'ammonia' smell, or none, in comparison with Q3131A.  I could not tell a different in recoil, etc. - felt the same as Q3131A.  Subjective. Accuracy a bit better than the Q3131A.   GotM4 said it ran fine in his 11.5" SBR.  He had short-stroking in his race gun with the adjustable gas port "1/2 open."   I admit my sample is small, but I had no problems with 20" barrels fired offhand.  More later.

The Wolf ran great in my 11.5" SBR, it has a CMMG 1x7 twist barrel, Larue gas block, Noveske KX3 Krink brake, standard carbine gas tube, PRI gas buster charging handle, RRA 'enhanced' carrier and bolt with Wolff extractor spring and a Crane O-ring.  CMT upper receiver, Enidine carbine buffer, CMT spring, VLTOR stock.  

It also worked well in my LMT M4 with a LMT H buffer.  

It did short cycle in my race gun a 1x9 twist 20" fluted Bushy barrel with a JP adjustable gas block and a rifle length Enidine buffer and Bennie Cooley muzzle brake.  I have the gas block opened three full turns and red loctited.  My race gun recoils a lot like a 10/22 with a bull barrel with American Eagle 55gr.  The Radway Green 62gr SS109 British ammo short cycles in it as well but with other full power Federal XM193, AE 223 or Black Hills anything this rifle will run.

Quoted: I admit my sample is small, but I had no problems with 20" barrels fired offhand.

That's a critical detail.  Especially for the 20 inch.  My twenties started out fine with this ammo.  But after a while the quit cycling the bolt far enough back to strip off the next round.

My rifles were SLOW FIRE, AIMED SHOTS, alternating between the two guns, 20 rounds per string.  In other words, it wasn't a "Gun too hot" issue.

Quoted: Quoted: I admit my sample is small, but I had no problems with 20" barrels fired offhand.   That's a critical detail.  Especially for the 20 inch.  My twenties started out fine with this ammo.  But after a while the quit cycling the bolt far enough back to strip off the next round. My rifles were SLOW FIRE, AIMED SHOTS, alternating between the two guns, 20 rounds per string.  In other words, it wasn't a "Gun too hot" issue.

I agree - sample's small. I'll try to get out again soon.

I fired for function about 60 rpm, as soon as I could acquire the front sight on anything colored black I pressed the trigger. Smoke off barrels.  Anyway, I'll rule out "gun too hot" here too.

Quoted: I agree - sample's small. I'll try to get out again soon. I fired for function about 60 rpm, as soon as I could acquire the front sight on anything colored black I pressed the trigger. Smoke off barrels.  Anyway, I'll rule out "gun too hot" here too.

Dig it!  I'm not saying your gun won't run it, but a few of us have had problems start after a mag or two.

Although two of my rifles won't run it, one of my 20 inchers seems to run it well.  I think I got over 80 rounds down range without a problem that day.

Thanks. I didn't think anyone'd argue that my gun didn't run ;) - what I am really doing is trying to add to the data set on this ammo.

To tell the truth I was pleasantly surprised, I fully expected my 20" rifles to cough on this stuff, and I'd be stuck with a case of ammo that didn't run in anything other than  my carbine.