User Panel
Good job Troy!
Just one suggestion... I would add the 60gr Nosler Partition to your list, as it was recently adopted by the FBI. It meets all the criteria of an excellent man stopping round, and is loaded by both Federal & Black Hills. Hope this helps. NYP |
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Excellent post!
Many companies are now loading a 64 grain softpoint. Thanks Troy |
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Yeah, it's virtually equal to the PowerPoint, and a good deer load as well. -Troy |
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What is the best possible round to be shot out of shorter barreled ARs (10.5-12.5" barrels)?
Thanks. |
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Best to worst in what way? I see only one of the choices has a gel test. What is the basis for the ranking?
It would be sweet to see gel tests on each of them. |
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Someone won't be happy until a 87gr BTHP is added to the list...
Just kidding... What is a good velocity for the 69gr Sierra BTHP load out of a standard length AR barrel? I have several hundred rounds loaded up, but have misplaced (and forgotten) the load data. |
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Did you read the list?
Did you read the intro? The data on these various rounds have been discussed at length in dozens of threads here and many other well-known places on the net (www.tacticalforums.com, www.firearmstactical.com, etc.). This is a CLIFF NOTES (read: quick overview). -Troy |
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I did and I misssed the 10" barrel statement. Thanks |
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Troy,
What do you know about the 60gr. TAP Barrier load (older tap in red box) is this a simular bullet to the bear claw, or is it just a soft point bullet? Thanks, |
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It wasn't very good, and Hornady discontinued it and sold it off cheap. They have a newer version that's supposed to be much improved, thanks to the use of FBI-style testing during development. Having said that, I haven't seen any independant test results.
-Troy |
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It wouldn't surprise me! You'll need a 1/2 twist barrel though! |
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A list of dont use? would be just as hard to list!
cant wait to test out the BH 75? boy I wish I could play with you guys! I would pay to see testing what fun! |
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Q3131 is next to last? That's not very reassuring to those who use it for defensive purposes (read: I do).
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At least it's on the list. There are probably close to 100 factory 5.56/.223 loads on the market, but only the ones on the list are really suitable for combat/defensive use. Keep in mind that the Hague conventions artificially limit most military ammo's effectiveness, on purpose. That there are much better options available on the open market shouldn't be a huge surprise. -Troy |
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Troy,
Thanks once again for your efforts, informative as always. |
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Penetration in some tests (bare gel, clothing) is adequate, but they don't do all that well in barrier tests. The core isn't bonded to the jacket, so jacket seperation is a problem. And it's fairly light; heavier SPs generally give better performance. -Troy |
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Great information. Thanks as always for your informative posts. I'm also glad I have 500 rounds of 5.56 TAP.
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Troy, as always, you provide excellent info. We appreciate it!
Only question I have is in regards to the Sierra 77gr MK. It's ranked very high, yet it doesn't frag very quickly compared to some others. So, my question is, why is it ranked so high? Is it because it will fragment at longer ranges than many others (Like 68gr OTM and XM193), or is it the fragmenting and terminal performance is better despite it's "late start"? Maybe it's a combination of things? |
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You're very welcome, as is the positive feedback.
It's a combo of both. Despite being slow to yaw, it still disrupts a lot of tissue, and it fragments at lower velocities. The latter means that it will still fragment (to 30-40 yards) from a 11.5" barrel (or to 25 or so yards from a 10" barrel), and considerably longer as barrel length increases. Not many "fragmenting" rounds will fragment at *any* range from those short barrels. The 68 and 69 gr have less fragmentation range (higher required velocity to fragment), won't fragment from 11.5" or shorter barrels, and disrupt less tissue in comparison. -Troy |
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What velocity does the 69-gr SMK require to fragment? I've searched for this and can't find it. |
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Approx. 2300-2350 fps impact velocity, which is the same as the 68gr Hornady. And just like the heavier versions, the SMK takes longer to yaw (i.e., has a longer "neck" area of the wound profile) than the Hornady bullet.
-Troy |
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Troy,
I have a 16" barrel / 1:9 twist M4. What type of ammo would be best for precision @600m with and without considering fragmentation? (I've read the oracle 5-6 times... but not much info beyond 300m...) Thanks! Pat |
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The 77 SMK, or, if it isn't stable enough from your 1:9, then likely the 69gr SMK. Of course, every barrel is different, and yours may prefer the Nosler or Hornady versions, but chances are that the Sierra will be most accurate.
-Troy |
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Thanks again! Eager to try'em... Pat |
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Great stuff, thanks! Which of those OTM/MK rounds would be best for barrier and then human penetration?
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I did end up buying alot of 75gr Black hill and 77gr. in the blue box, For my new LMT 14.5 1/7 twist
Also found out my 14.7ish hbar 1/9 twist A1 Bushy shoots the 77 and 75 at about 220 yards at the Berm hitting a Tin Can easy? You never know until ya try? |
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Generally, OTM bullets aren't great barrier penetrators, but the heavier bullets do better than the ligher ones at retaining the ability to cause tissue damage after penetrating drywall or sheet steel. The only "good" (and not necessarily great) ammo for barrier situations would be soft-points, particularly the Federal Tactical TBBC. The 60gr Nosler Partition, the TAP Barrier, and even the 64gr PowerPoints are also pretty good. None of these will make as large of a wound in bare tissue as a fragmenting bullet, but they perform better after passing through intermediate barriers. .22" bullets are really too small for any one bullet to do everything well. With such limited mass, you can't maximize performance in all areas at once. -Troy |
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Please re-read the "Loads To Avoid" section. -Troy |
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Troy, great infomation. Have you worked with the 65 grain SGK bullet? Do you know of ant factory loads using this bullet?
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Thanks. When I consider the basic reason I have an AR, the more I realize I need something in a larger caliber. |
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No, and no. The latter issue is why there is no data for the former. -Troy |
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Yes; it's a key reason why I'm so interested in the 6.8 SPC, and why I would like to see it adopted, or a new weapon created based on an all-new round developed using the same methodology that developed the SPC. As part of the SPC development effort, a "from-scratch ideal cartridge" was created. It would have used a 7mm bullet and a longer, fatter case. It would have been shorter, smaller, and lighter than the .308, but with better capabilities at all ranges out to 1000 yards. It would be usable in a short CQB carbine (controllable in full-auto), but also suitable for GPMG work and everything in between. But it wouldn't fit in any existing weapon, so it has no chance in hell of ever being produced. Still a good exercise, though. -Troy |
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Great work, Troy!
I have one editorial item to point out: on item 8, which is about M885-type ammo, you cite "true M193..." where it should of course say "true M885..." Not a knock, it just caught my eye. Now if I can just get confirmation that the markings on my RRA barrel (N 9 A) do indeed mean it has a NATO chamber with a 1/9 twist, I'm all set! |
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Totally agree with you. I still like the 5.56, but I'm really starting to like the 6.5 Grendel even more than the 6.8. I'm just going to wait a year or two to see if prices go down and I might build a whole new upper. |
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Great to have a Cliff Notes version that can summarize all the current data. Thanks!
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I find the 75gr to be the most accurate in my 16" POF rifle. Troy or Zhukov, can you re-tack this? I find myself going back to it for info.
TIA, TS |
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Ahh, well, this is easily one of the most useful posts on this site in a long time.
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I called Sierra about thier 77gr MK BTHP's before I started reloading for my 16" 1x9 barrel. I was worried that my barrel wouldn't stabilize them. Sierra told me that they would and 99% of 1x9 twist barrels will stabilize that bullet.
So I started reloading them with 24.9grs of Varget which I found to be my most accurate load although I could push it all the way to 26grs but it wasn't as accurate then. I can shoot 1/2moa easy at 100yds with a M3 Aimpoint with a 2moa dot. I have not been able to chrono it yet but I will be able to this summer sometime. It sure makes a spectacular mess of milk jugs full of water and full beer cans that I found at the range one day. I like the heavy round and it is the most accurate as anything I have ever shot along with the Sierra's 52gr with VV N133. I reloaded up 500rds of this stuff and use it for everything and it is a lot cheaper to reload these 77grs over buying them plus you can reload to your specific gun to achieve the best accuracy. |
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I asked for the 69-gr fragmentation velocity floor; Troy was kind enough to reply:
Troy, can you advise the necessary velocity for the 75 & 77-gr BTHP bullets? Thanks again! |
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I know the 55 and 60 GR TAP are not favored here becasue of the lack of penetration. I just want to clear something up, but correct me if I am wrong, the 55 and 60 Gr TAP were purposely designed not to overpenetrate. They were designed for LE purposes for the officers who did not want the bullet to go through walls and hit innocent bystandards or their partners. The 55 Grain TAP still penetrates 8" and the 60 Grain penetrates 10". Unless, you are shooting at "Fat Bastard", it is still a good round to use when properly used. And they are accurate as hell like all other Hornady TAP rounds. So, in my opinion, they are a decent Self-Defense round and it just gets too much negative publicity becasue of some tests. I still wouldn't want to get hit by one of those rounds, would anyone here? I still prefer the 75 Grain TAP though.
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2200-2250 fps for the 75/77gr OTMs. -Troy |
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