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Posted: 3/25/2006 7:50:02 PM EDT
I went out shooting with my dad today and tried out some Bulk Lancer ammo. .223/5.56 55grn FMJ. Lancer Ammo. My dad was shooting from the bench and had a misfire.
I had muffs on, but did not hear anything. Pulled the CH and ejected a round, checked the chamber and let it go. I fired the weapon and KaBOOM. Blew the bottom of the mag out and flattened the rounds. Broke off the mag release on the lower, split the upper reciever, bent my ARMS #45, broke the carrier and the extractor from the bolt. The upper is a Bushy 1/9 Fluted H-Bar 16". The whole upper is basically FUBAR, the barrel looks OK though. No signs of bulging and the rifling looks good. My pic-fu sucks but I will try to upload from photobucket. What do you guys think? Out of battery, Squib, overcharge or weak case? E-mailed Lancer and will see what they say, if anything. I can take more pics but am unsure how to resize.    |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:06:10 PM EDT
[#1]
damn this is happening a lot latley.
 when you ejected the round that didnt go off, did you notice if the bullet was still in it? |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:12:03 PM EDT
[#2]
what headstamp is on the brass in the picture?
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:14:01 PM EDT
[#3]
No, and that was stupid. I have had a squib in the past, and witnessed a few others, and there is usually some report. This was just a barely audible click as the hammer fell.
ETA: WCC 02 |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:18:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Now that is ugly. Are you alright? No one was hurt were they?
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:19:29 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:23:37 PM EDT
[#6]
No I had my eyes and ears on, but I did catch a face full of crap. I am pissed because it was my father's first time with an AR and (no joke) was telling him about all of the reliability BS concerning the AR
 . We got off about 250 rounds and he loved it. Breaking clays with the ML2. The upper had about 2K rounds through it.ETA B/BC/CH is or was CMT enhanced semi-carrier |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:26:01 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:43:32 PM EDT
[#8]
is the primer flat as hell or look sorta normal?
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:44:44 PM EDT
[#9]
 Glad you are OK. This has been happening to often lately. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:49:15 PM EDT
[#10]
The primer itself is not bulged or flat, its hard to tell. where it blew out the bass is on the web and partially the primer pocket. It is slightly bulged around where the FP hit.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:53:52 PM EDT
[#11]
tag
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Posted: 3/25/2006 9:08:35 PM EDT
[#12]
 I can get some more pics tomorrow, have to hit the hay soon. I is almost identical to J_Smith KB thread except for the bore obstruction, which may have been shot out? 
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Posted: 3/25/2006 9:12:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Bogey1911,
What kind of handguard/fore-end did you have on that Evil Black Rifle? Looks like it's trashed too. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 9:15:48 PM EDT
[#14]
ARMS #45C, the top rail is trashed. It was the only thing holding the upper together. When I got it off , the reciever peeled away like a bananna
 . I would do the Bananna dance emoticon but I'm kinda pissed
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Posted: 3/25/2006 9:28:08 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 3/25/2006 9:28:15 PM EDT
[#16]
I can see that you would be mad. I hope you get some help from the ammo company. That is an expensive set up that they ruined.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 9:34:01 PM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 3/25/2006 10:01:46 PM EDT
[#18]
tough call on this one, could be a) bad ammo, though it's really hard to overcharge a case since the powder takes up most of the case capacity b) bullet stuck in bbl from the misfire or c) fired out of battery, e.g. a stuck firing pin
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Posted: 3/25/2006 10:33:17 PM EDT
[#19]
try to get a little closer pic of the primer.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 10:57:09 PM EDT
[#20]
Still Crappy but the best I can do.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 11:58:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Lucky you're not hurt.
Tag. |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 1:49:51 AM EDT
[#22]
Sounds like the ARMS rail kept if from grenading any worse.
Threads like this aren't helping me get over my new-found flinch any easier. 
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Posted: 3/26/2006 3:29:20 AM EDT
[#23]
Sounds like more than a few people in this forum need a class on proper proceedure for dealing with squibs......AND need to be carrying a cleaning rod to rod their barrels BEFORE recharging their rifles and blowing them up.
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Posted: 3/26/2006 3:39:02 AM EDT
[#24]
No doubt.... Also been freaky about headspacing too....just triple checked mine today over at a friend's.... |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 3:44:08 AM EDT
[#25]
It's always smart to check the barrel for obstructions not just the chamber.
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Posted: 3/26/2006 3:49:04 AM EDT
[#26]
+1 You're certainly correct. Same goes for looking both ways at stop signs before entering traffic. But we all know that brain-farts happen. I have seen a number of instances of KBs that did not happen b/c I or a buddy stopped someone from loading another round behind a squib. At just one MG shoot my buddy stopped someon from wrecking an original sturgewehr. Later that same day he did the same for a guy with an M2HB.........think about that one. It seems that no matter how much we preach the safety mantras these avoidable KBs happen. I conclude that this is a reflection of our imperfect human nature. I'm glad Bogey is OK. I have a hunch he will never blindly recharge a firearm after a failure to fire again. I think he should be commended for having the courage to come forward so that others can learn........and relearn. Judgement follows experience - experience follows bad judgement. Sam |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 4:19:02 AM EDT
[#27]
Not trying to be judgemental or sarcastic at all Sam, just throwing out some info that many seem to be unaware of seeing the number of posts lately with KBs. Please don't take it the wrong way. I don't want anyone to be injured or destroy their nice rifles for lack of information. The squib load condition is something that is not taught on a regular enough basis to maintain it fresh in every shooters mind, yet is the cause of a lot of catastrophic failures and injury. I too think that a commendation is in order for sharing the experience with others, that it might refresh their thinking on the range. I just wrote an email to my son and grandkids about it to refresh it in their minds before they go out on their range. |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 4:28:53 AM EDT
[#28]
Not everyone shoots their ARs from a bench. When your target shooting & get a "click", tear it down & examine.... Break out the rod... Thats fine. If you use it in a defensive role & get a click, your going to "slap & rack". Your not going to tear it down on the line. Nice thought, wont work for every situation. Still going to have the dreaded KABOOM. -Justin
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Posted: 3/26/2006 4:30:58 AM EDT
[#29]
No offense was taken. You said well what needed to be said. Sam |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 5:19:57 AM EDT
[#30]
Tommygun, I agree with you assesment. I have been shooting a long time and admit i had a lapse in judgement, I should have at least checked the extracted round. I have been around several squib loads. All have had some bang, pop or other audible noise that does not sound right. I was right next to the weapon bieng fired (with electronic muffs) and heard nothing but the "click" of the hammer. I have not been to any carbine classes, but have been in several pistol classes. The tap and rack mentality runs deep I guess.
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Posted: 3/26/2006 7:24:47 AM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 3/26/2006 8:09:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Thanks a lot for coming forward and posting this. To be honest I would have done the same thing out of habit. I too am going to throw a cleaning rod in my range bag and keep this in mind in the future. Everyone makes mistakes, I'm just glad that you are man enough to come forward, admit you messed, and help others learn from your mistake. Thanks again and much respect to you.
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Posted: 3/26/2006 9:57:18 AM EDT
[#33]
I'm not sure where we determined that this was a squib, obstructed bore. Every obstructed bore KB I have seen has damage to the barrel, either bulged or damaged rifling. This has neither.
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Posted: 3/26/2006 10:42:54 AM EDT
[#34]
That's what I was thinking. I think this is very likely to be a case of bad ammo. |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 11:19:48 AM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 3/26/2006 11:24:45 AM EDT
[#36]
Don't forget to put your camera on "flower" mode.
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Posted: 3/26/2006 11:28:50 AM EDT
[#37]
Absolutley, I think its a testament to Stoner's design. Everything either blew out of the magwell or out of the ejection port. The upper contained any shrapnel, including a 1" piece of the carrier. I am just trying to figure out what happened. Since I did not witness a "weak round" or damage to the barrel, I am leaning away from the squib round. Even if only the primer ignited, I am sure I would have heard it. If I'm ever on the bench again with a misfre, I will pull the BC and check the barrel. ETA it is on flower mode, i'm justa terrible photographer 
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Posted: 3/26/2006 12:27:58 PM EDT
[#38]
The odds that a round "misfired" JUST before the kaboom, and the next round kaboomed the rifle, are more than coincidental.
Without question - there is severe ejector flow in that brass. That means pressure. Could have been an overcharged case, or it could have been an obstructed bore - and there was nowhere else for the pressure to go.   It IS possible to overcharge a case to the point where you cause case failure. Even though .223/5.56 is impossible to *doublecharge* using standard powders, it is possible to overcharge the case, severely, using standard ball powders. This kboom could be either.... I will leave it to the experts to decide. But given that the round fired just previously was a misfire/potential squib, I know where I am leaning. I wonder this - experts.... let me paint a scenario: If the previous round was a squib, with no or little powder, which was just enough pressure to move the bullet down into the rifling. Then the NEXT round chambers and caused the previous bullet to be pushed further into the bore, and/or causing setback on the new bullet, but allowing full chambering. Then, the gun is fired, causing an extreme pressure spike due to having two bullets in the bore, and any potential setback causing cases capacity to be diminished. The question then is - given the kboom, is it possible for two bullets to be fired from the bore.... explaining why the bore was clear after the kboom? |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 12:35:31 PM EDT
[#39]
The results depend on the location of the obstruction. If the bullet lodges immediately ahead of the next chambered head then a ruptured barrel may not occur. In this instance results look like an excessive pressure KB - as does yours. Nor would you likely find visibly obvious damage to the rifling. Imagine mistakenly loading a 220 grain bullet in an '06 case using the maximum powder charge for a 110 grain bullet. To argue against the squib/obstruction theory is to argue that there is no connection between the round that did not go bang and the very next round which somehow caused the KB. Sam |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 12:50:45 PM EDT
[#40]
+1 How can the bore be clear after it was "obstructed"? I would suspect that there would be damage in the chamber/barrel as wel Did he extract just a casing, or a complete round after it didn't fire? |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 1:48:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Guys, I agree. Like I mentioned previosly, I did not inspect the ejected misfire. That is on me and in retrospect I KB'ed a $900 upper. The reason that it did not raise any red flags with me was the lack of report, it was a click, rack the CH, hold sideways and look in the chamber, let it fly home and BOOM. I do not have a bore scope but holding it up to the light I can not see any signs of damage in the barrel or chamber. It actually looks pretty clean. Thanks for all thinking out loud. Its has to be a squib->bore obstruction->new round->KB. Still strange I did not hear anything like the pop of a primer.
Here's the left side, that crack was all of the way throug. When the ARMS 45 came off, so did each side of the upper. Scary sh*t 
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Posted: 3/26/2006 2:36:08 PM EDT
[#42]
I would not have expected to hear more than the firing pin impact. Sam |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 2:37:58 PM EDT
[#43]
Yes it is possible. I've had it happen to me without the Kboom, but it ringed the barrel of a Thompson. The pressures of the .45 ACP round were much lower but enough to force both projectiles from the bore leaving the bore clear but damaged.The obstructing bullet was a bit farther up the bore also. If the obstructing bullet is left just ahead of the throat in the riflings, far enough to chamber another round with little or no air space between , it is possible for both to be expelled from the bore. If the obstructing bullet is farther up the bore with a larger air space its less likely to be driven out of the bore by another behind it, but it can happen. The air in between is usually compressed and the barrel is ringed. There have been instances of several bullets, 6-7-8 stacked up in bores of submachineguns. Someone actually posted a cutaway of a barrel with this phenomena on another board. The case I had of inadvertant mixed powder in a .308, there was no bore obstruction, the projo fired clear of the bore but the resultant over pressure was enough to damage the bolt, the mag, the stock, and flow the brass. I'm not exhonerating the ammo in any of these situations. I just hope people are recognizing squibs if they are occuring and using proper proceedures to clear the weapons and check the bores with a rod before proceeding. |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 4:10:21 PM EDT
[#44]
This is why I DO NOT RELOAD FOR AR's. Hell, I get squib loads out of my reloads for my shotgun. The wad would get stuck in the barrel. Glad the guys that have had these are ok.
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Posted: 3/26/2006 8:05:37 PM EDT
[#45]
There is no difference in a reload vs factory ammo, when you apply the correct controls. When there is a problem, one of the controls wasn't in place. If you ever get a squib on your own ammo, YOU did something very wrong. |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 11:01:02 PM EDT
[#46]
First off, my condolences to Bogey1911 for his loss. But, I also thank him for "taking one for the team" so to speak.
Squib loads are not something I ever think about. I know what they are, but it's not something I would have thought about in his situation. Even with my limited military experience (or maybe because of), I would have gone straight into SPORTS and not thought twice. If I come across a missfire in the future, I'll definitely be weary of a squib load. On a related note, this almost makes me want to buy an ARMS rail setup just for the protection. Hey there's an idea Bogey1911, maybe you could sell the upper back to ARMS so they could market their rail systems as a safer alternative to a FF tube. 
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Posted: 3/27/2006 3:43:46 AM EDT
[#47]
 Squib Rod (1) WWB 380 Squib (2) M1A dumb shooter after three shots JEEZs (3)Cheap indian 308
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Posted: 3/27/2006 4:45:01 AM EDT
[#48]
Wow - you just disproved your own argument!!!! I agree - I wont shoot OTHER PEOPLES reloads.... but my personal reloads are as reliable as factory ammo. You stated:
Yet you posted 4 links. One is a squib rod (not sure what your point was) and the OTHER THREE WERE FAILURES WITH FACTORY AMMO. In your post I replied to - you didn't say "I wont shoot other people's backyard reloads in my AR" which is a good thing, and I would agree with. What you said was "This is why I DO NOT RELOAD FOR AR's." Which is a ridiculous statement, as long as you personally apply strict controls to your own reloading, reloading for the AR is no different than reloading for any other weapon. Do you reload at all? What is so different about the AR from other calibers that you DO reload for? |
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Posted: 3/27/2006 5:42:39 AM EDT
[#49]
UPDATE
I e-mailed Lancer Ammo on Saturday. This is their reply. Yes sir, I will stand behind the ammo and fix any problems related to it. I will need a copy of the repair bill. Have your armorer or gunsmith call me and fax the bill when the repairs are done and I will either credit card the repairs or forward a check for them. Please keep me posted on the process. Sorry that this happened but thankfully no one was hurt and nothing is messed up that cannot be fixed. Mike I am surprised to say the least. It is a refreshing response, because I was expecting the run-around. I will post with any further updates. If this holds to be true , Mike is a class act. |
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Posted: 3/27/2006 6:10:05 AM EDT
[#50]
that's way cool! I met Mike a couple times at local gunshows. I bet he has insurance that covers this type of stuff. |
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