Just got the Bushmaster 9mm C-15 pistol in and took it to the range for a run through. It was shot in both the “just out of box” stock configuration. It was also shot as a SBR with a collapsible stock added.




Ammo:
Winchester White Box 115gr FMJ, 300 rounds (now up to 3000 rounds)
Winchester Ranger 147gr hollow point, subsonic, 300 Rounds
Black Hills Red box 124gr +P hollow point, supersonic, 50 rounds

Chrono:
Have not tested yet.

The Gun:
Bushmaster 9mm C-15 pistol
Rock River 6-pos stock
PRI Gas Buster Charging Handle (Military type)
Colt 32 round 9mm magazines
Bushmaster Lower Foregrip Rail
Streamlight TL-1
AAC Phantom 9mm suppressor
AAC foregrip
Rock River 9mm Bolt
Tubbs Extra Power Carbine Buffer spring
AAC CMK Rate Reducing Buffer


Weight: 4lb 15oz (no magazine) without suppressor
Weight: 5lb 7oz (Colt steel magazine) without suppressor
Length (collapsed): 23 and 1/2 inches without suppressor
Length (extended): 27 and 1/4 inches without suppressor

Weight: 6lb 9oz (no magazine) in latest photo
Weight: 7lb 1oz (Colt steel magazine) in latest photo
Length (collapsed): 28 and 1/2 inches in latest photo
Length (extended): 32 and 1/4 inches in latest photo





I shot one magazine in its box stock setup. I didn’t oil the gun yet at all and still have not. I wanted to see how the gun would work with no maintenance. The gun shot fine except when I didn’t hold the gun tight and held it away from the body, it shot 3 to 4 round bursts in full auto. This happened several times in the factory pistol configuration. My only explanation was it must have somehow been “bump fired” as the recoil moved the gun in my hand. I didn’t try to explore it further as I was going to SBR it and was more concerned with its behavior with the stock added.  

So after one magazine that I shot just for you guys, I switched it to an SBR. In its SBR configuration is when I shot most of the ammo. One thing I did do is remove the M203 handguard from the front. I plan on installing the front rail that comes on the 97S pistol so I can mount a weapon light and vertical grip. So that it will look like its .223 brother in the photo. I also plan to remove the flash hider and add an AAC Phantom 9mm suppressor.

Have not shot the gun for accuracy yet but will Sunday. I didn’t have an optic on the gun and was only shooting on a 25 yard range. I will say the gun was very easy to do double taps on a small steel plate at 25 yards. I had one magazine (32 rounds) were I did double taps as fast as I could and still didn’t miss the 12 inch steel plate at 25 yards. The gun is just very controllable.

I did use factory Colt 32 round 9mm magazines. That may have contributed to the reliability. It was perfect. 300 rounds of Winchester 115 grain white box, 50 rounds of Black Hills red box 124 grain +P, 50 rounds of Winchester 147 grain Ranger LE Ammo. Not one failure the whole time, all with no oil. So far I am pretty damn happy with the gun.

I’ll run the gun some more, do the velocity tests and take some more photos. These photos are just at the range, so no pretty backdrops or lighting.

great info thanks

Wow.... all i can say is wow.  But one question?  Where did you find someone to engrave that carbon lower?  since it is an SBR you do have a valid form 1 right?  and did you have to unscrew that receiver extention in order to put on a stock making it a short barreled rifle?  also when manufacturing a pistol, according to the ATF, the lower must never have been a rifle, well now its a rifle and still illegal.  But the pictures were nice, im sure all the ATF bubbas will love them, i mean photographic proof goes much further in court than hear say.  But nice RIFLES.





free bump to top for reading.

Quoted: Wow.... all i can say is wow.  But one question?  Where did you find someone to engrave that carbon lower?  since it is an SBR you do have a valid form 1 right?  and did you have to unscrew that receiver extention in order to put on a stock making it a short barreled rifle?  also when manufacturing a pistol, according to the ATF, the lower must never have been a rifle, well now its a rifle and still illegal.  But the pictures were nice, im sure all the ATF bubbas will love them, i mean photographic proof goes much further in court than hear say.  But nice RIFLES. free bump to top for reading.

Assumptions?  SOT?  Anyone?

he's an sot.

there is another thread of his in the full auto section, but he would probably get a little more attention here.

Quoted: Wow.... all i can say is wow.  But one question?  Where did you find someone to engrave that carbon lower?  since it is an SBR you do have a valid form 1 right?  and did you have to unscrew that receiver extention in order to put on a stock making it a short barreled rifle?  also when manufacturing a pistol, according to the ATF, the lower must never have been a rifle, well now its a rifle and still illegal.  But the pictures were nice, im sure all the ATF bubbas will love them, i mean photographic proof goes much further in court than hear say.  But nice RIFLES. free bump to top for reading.

No Shit!

Did it ever occur to you that maybe you arent the only guy in town that knows the rules?

I like the set-up "nobody-really".  How much did you pay for the stock model and where did you buy it?  Just trying to see what the going price is...  

Very NICE!
How does the 223 super shorty cycle?
Are you using a pig tail gas tube?

Any more pictures?  We would love to see them!

P.S. Ignore HSprecision by his post count (28) at the time, you can tell he is a

We all know what our local and state and federal laws are... some of us might not know how they all work and interact with each other, but we know what they are!

Joe1972

Quoted: Very NICE! How does the 223 super shorty cycle? Are you using a pig tail gas tube? Any more pictures?  We would love to see them! P.S. Ignore HSprecision by his post count (28) at the time, you can tell he is a We all know what our local and state and federal laws are... some of us might not know how they all work and interact with each other, but we know what they are! Joe1972

Exactly. Most of us have been doing this for  a while. If you dont know, ask and learn. If they dont ask STFU and quit trying to be a know it all.

It's a blowback gun, like all the other 9s out there.

HSprecision ---- First I’m a Class II SOT. So no form 1. I just fax the ATF to tell them what I have made. I just got the gun Friday so there would not have been time to get a form 1 approved. The truth at this point is rifle to pistol is bad , but pistol to rifle is ok. All SBR’s and machineguns I make are laser engraved with my company name and logo, with city/state info. And I must say it looks real nice. Also it's just a photo, in court all you would have to say is "PHOTOSHOP". But they are real as all girls say.

Wolfpak --- I got it from Davidson’s a wholesaler. At this point they are coming in on allocation so as a dealer you have to have a good relationship with your sales guy. The best prices you are going to see is about $900+.

joe1972 --- I can tell you that the .223 gun runs perfect now. I have to say "now" because when I first got it was not running very well but I sent it back and Bushmaster fixed it right up. And I also added a Ti-Nitride bolt carrier assembly and a Noveske KX-3 brake that boosts back pressure.  The 223 gun now is one of the best AR guns for reliability. Just my opinion.  Oh, and no pigtail it is a stock gas system except for the boost from the Krink brake.

A guy on another post asked for pictures to use as wallpaper, so they are big.

Quoted: It's a blowback gun, like all the other 9s out there.

My question was: "How does the 223 super shorty cycle?"
That would be refering to the TOP gun,

Quoted: I can tell you that the .223 gun runs perfect now. I have to say "now" because when I first got it was not running very well but I sent it back and Bushmaster fixed it right up. And I also added a Ti-Nitride bolt carrier assembly and a Noveske KX-3 brake that boosts back pressure. The 223 gun now is one of the best AR guns for reliability. Just my opinion. Oh, and no pigtail it is a stock gas system except for the boost from the Krink brake.

Thanks for the info!
They both look real GOOD!

Any difficulties installing the RRA stock to the lower?

AR223--- For the 9mm, no problems. The 9mm uses the mil spec carbine buffer and spring. All you have to do is drill a small hole in the receiver plate and your done.

For the 223 there is more, as the factory bolt carrier, buffer and spring are not mil spec and need to be replaced by mil spec parts. You then need to drill the small hole in the receiver plate.

Quoted: AR223--- For the 9mm, no problems. The 9mm uses the mil spec carbine buffer and spring. All you have to do is drill a small hole in the receiver plate and your done. For the 223 there is more, as the factory bolt carrier, buffer and spring are not mil spec and need to be replaced by mil spec parts. You then need to drill the small hole in the receiver plate.

The small hole is for the sling mount?

Did you have to install a buffer detent?  Are all Carbon 15 lowers now threaded for carbine buffer tubes?

Hey Nobodyrealy, nice work. I am just getting into the 9mm AR game. I really like what you did with those. I was originaly going with the Gemtech Talon-Trinity setup but you give me new ideas.
Are you in the PHX area?

AR223 --- Pistol Carbon-15’s do not have a detent in the back of the receiver for a mil-spec receiver plate. Instead they have a hole that a threaded for a sling mount. So you have to drill a hole in the receiver plate and put it on backward with the key that fits in the detent facing toward the butt. Then use the sling mount bolt to limit rotation of the receiver plate.

The 9mm came with a buffer retention detent, spring and cap. The 223 did not. I have the parts but I have not had the time to add the buffer retention detent.

The Carbon-15 lowers have always been able to accept an after market buffer tube, that I know of.

Quoted: Hey Nobodyrealy, nice work. I am just getting into the 9mm AR game. I really like what you did with those. I was originaly going with the Gemtech Talon-Trinity setup but you give me new ideas. Are you in the PHX area?

I'm down in Tucson. I am going to put together a Carbon-15 Gemtech Trinity this year just don't know when. I picked up a trinity upper at the SAR show and it was real light. The heaviest part was the aluminum upper. Can’t wait to see what a Cabon-15 based Trinity is like. That combo should be slick as shit.

Nobody-really:

What buffer weight are you running in the .223?

OB_1

Quoted: Nobody-really: What buffer weight are you running in the .223? OB_1

I am using a standard carbine buffer, but it runs fine with the super heavy MGI rate reducer as well.

Thanks nobody.....

OB_1

I just did the same set up on my 9mm carbon pistol with a 4-position collapsible stock (for now) What I really want to do is put an ACE stock on it. whaddya think?

Nice work.

Max

Quoted: I just did the same set up on my 9mm carbon pistol with a 4-position collapsible stock (for now) What I really want to do is put an ACE stock on it. whaddya think?

That's going to be some work. The 9mm pistol lower does not have a detent for the key on the ACE stock. You will have to drill a 1/2 inch hole into the lower reciever. The ACE stock would work on the rifle lower without any modifications. I have an ACE stock and I looked at putting it on, but ended up keeping it simple.

Quoted: Quoted: I just did the same set up on my 9mm carbon pistol with a 4-position collapsible stock (for now) What I really want to do is put an ACE stock on it. whaddya think? That's going to be some work. The 9mm pistol lower does not have a detent for the key on the ACE stock. You will have to drill a 1/2 inch hole into the lower reciever. The ACE stock would work on the rifle lower without any modifications. I have an ACE stock and I looked at putting it on, but ended up keeping it simple.

BTW,
what's the proper steps to register it as an SBR? I have the form 1,and the money order. I'm waiting on the fingerprint card, then what?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just did the same set up on my 9mm carbon pistol with a 4-position collapsible stock (for now) What I really want to do is put an ACE stock on it. whaddya think? That's going to be some work. The 9mm pistol lower does not have a detent for the key on the ACE stock. You will have to drill a 1/2 inch hole into the lower reciever. The ACE stock would work on the rifle lower without any modifications. I have an ACE stock and I looked at putting it on, but ended up keeping it simple. BTW, what's the proper steps to register it as an SBR? I have the form 1,and the money order. I'm waiting on the fingerprint card, then what?

You next big hurdle is to get the “Chief Law Enforcement Officer” (CLEO) signature if you are going to file as an individual, or set up your corporation if you do not want to go the CLEO signature route.

Sounds like you are just about there, you’ve got the form you’ve got the money.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just did the same set up on my 9mm carbon pistol with a 4-position collapsible stock (for now) What I really want to do is put an ACE stock on it. whaddya think? That's going to be some work. The 9mm pistol lower does not have a detent for the key on the ACE stock. You will have to drill a 1/2 inch hole into the lower reciever. The ACE stock would work on the rifle lower without any modifications. I have an ACE stock and I looked at putting it on, but ended up keeping it simple. BTW, what's the proper steps to register it as an SBR? I have the form 1,and the money order. I'm waiting on the fingerprint card, then what? You next big hurdle is to get the “Chief Law Enforcement Officer” (CLEO) signature if you are going to file as an individual, or set up your corporation if you do not want to go the CLEO signature route. Sounds like you are just about there, you’ve got the form you’ve got the money.

I'm filing as an individual, I don't really see any problems with the CLEO signature since I'm just adding a stock on an over the counter firearm. I'm only doing it for the comfort of shooting it with the stock against my shoulder instead of the whole gun floating in front of me. Although it's considered a pistol, the darn thing is way too big for a one hand or even two handed shooting gun. Now, how about these colored fingeer print cards I read on this post. How many do I have to have exactly to file?

I’ve made one more step down the long road on this project gun. I added the lower rail just like on my .223 gun. It’s not much of a step in three or so months but I had a customer that wanted some special parts from Bushmaster so I tagged the rail onto the order.

The next step is I also have some parts that I am going to add to the lower that may require a different bolt carrier. If it does require a new bolt carrier, I'll maybe get a RRA bolt carrier.

Also I finally will be ordering the suppressor for it. I would expect it in 45 days or so.

After that I think a Tripower sight, Trijicon iron sights, Magpul CTR stock and maybe a Magpul MIAD grip.

<---begins looking into SBR info...


Thanks for the informative post. Did you remove the pics? i saw them last night, but the links show broken now.

Either way, still good info.

My web sever was down.

It's back up now.

Cool, thought I was having an issue with this machine.

I have been toying with getting another 9mm AR, and had been leaning lateley towards the beretta storm, just for something different. The thought of going SBR had never crossed my mind.


So, a pistol can become a SBR legally, once the form1 is approved? I think I'm reading that right...

Quoted: Cool, thought I was having an issue with this machine. I have been toying with getting another 9mm AR, and had been leaning lateley towards the beretta storm, just for something different. The thought of going SBR had never crossed my mind. So, a pistol can become a SBR legally, once the form1 is approved? I think I'm reading that right...

Yes a Form 1 would be the way to go.

I would say the Bushmaster Carbon-15 9mm pistol is the ticket to a nice 9mm SBR with very little work. You just add the stock when you get your Form 1 back from the ATF.

It's very easy and simple.

Can it cowitness with an EOTech or Aimpoint?  The rail looks a bit high in relation to the sight.

Not really,

The best I think you can do is use a Aimopoint or Tripower with a TACTICAL AIMPOINT COMP MOUNT made by MOUNTING SOLUTIONS PLUS. You will be able to see the iron sights under the red dot sight.

Nobody Really,

What sight base do you have on your Trijicon Reflex?  I am moving to a flat-top upper and am considering getting a quick release base instead of the basic flat-top base from Trijicon.  Your comments are greatly appreciated.

Quoted: Nobody Really, What sight base do you have on your Trijicon Reflex?  I am moving to a flat-top upper and am considering getting a quick release base instead of the basic flat-top base from Trijicon.  Your comments are greatly appreciated.

It's the Trijicon ARMS mount that Trijicon sells with some of the Reflex packages. I got this one fron RSR, but I bet you can get one just like it from Midway USA.

Well, another 3 months has pasted and one more update. The suppressor came in and I added a Streamlight TL-1 light. I’m pretty happy with the gun so far. I just got the suppressor, so I have not had a chance to shoot it yet, maybe this weekend. The suppressor is really light weight and the gun still feels very well balanced. I think the length added was not that bad, but you do know the gun is longer.

I am going to see it I can negotiate a trade to get a RRA 9mm bolt tomorrow. If I can get a RRA 9mm bolt I will be installing some better trigger parts and adding some selector stops. If all goes well I might have it done by Monday or so.

I still need the Tripower red dot and a vertical foregrip.

nobody-really,

Your 9mm Carbon 15 Bushmaster keeps looking better and better.

Thanks, I like it a lot more now with the suppressor.

I definately like the looks of that.  Might have to try and do the same to my 6450.  I'm very new to all of this and have a few details I'd like verified if you don't mind nobody.

#1, I'd assume I need to put the SBR and Silencer on seperate forms or would pinning them together make it possible to put on the same form?

#2, Knowing there are several suppressors out there, what are the things to look for when purchasing one?

And lastly, since I'm in Tucson also can I go out and observe the SBR with suppressor sometime to see if I really want to invest the money.

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

John

Doing something similar to a Colt 6450 would be cool but it does miss couple of things that makes this gun cool. The Bushmaster Carbon-15 9mm pistol SBR’d is very light weight and the hand guard is pretty streamlined. It makes for a nice package.

Don’t get me wrong the Colt 6450 is very cool and much more rugged then the carbon is. With a 9 inch TROS barrel and a 3-lug suppressor you would have a gun similar and very nice. The option of having a quick detach suppressor would be a be plus.

Now, I’ll try to answer your questions. Before I do there have been some complaints on the boards that people that are in the industry do not disclose that they are representing a company and have a vested interest in the information posted.

So, I need to tell you that I am a dealer for several suppressor manufacturers. Please assume that if I don’t recommend a brand that I merely have little experience with it, most likely because it is not a brand I carry. It would not mean it is not a good brand or a quality product. I can only really speak honestly about products and brands I am familiar with.

1# I think you are correct that if you pin (and weld over the pin, making the attachment permanent) a suppressor to a barrel that is under 16 inches, and the combined length of the new barrel assembly is equal or greater then 16 inches you will need to pay for only one tax stamp. Thus saving $200.00, but I would guess that later in life you would wish you just spent the money to have the SBR. My advice would be to make the SBR.

2# To answer your question ask yourself “I’m I buying a suppressor? Or building a system, a purpose built gun?”

If your answer is “I am buying a suppressor” then buy something like a Gemtech Trinity. The Trinity suppressor is a modular system that can fit many 9mm guns like thread on fixed barrel SBR’s, thread on Browning action pistols and 3-lug machineguns. And the TROS 3-lug barrel you can get for your Colt 9mm AR-15.

If your answer is “I am building a gun system that will have a suppressor.” Then you have to think about what you are trying to build. What purpose does it fill? What requirements do you have to fit that purpose? I started with the gun so I was limited to the thread on type suppressor with ½ x 36 Colt SMG threads. I was willing to marry the suppressor to the gun to get the lightest and shortest package. That made for a very short list that I had to choose from and I picked the shortest and lightest suppressor on the list, the AAC Phantom. As a bonus the AAC Phantom can be ordered with stainless steel baffles to rate it for full-auto fire.

I did have other choices that were very good. I could have picked a thread on Gemtech Trinity, but it would not have been rated for full-auto fire. It also may have been a bit longer and heaver but I don’t remember. I could have picked a Gemtech Raptor with the quick detach flash hider. This would have replaced the flash hider with one that the suppressor could attach to. The suppressor would have been rated for full-auto fire but would have been heaver and longer then the Phantom. I came very close to picking this combination because the quick detach would have been nice. I could have picked a 3-lug suppressor like the Gemtech Raptor or the AAC Striker II and used a TROS 3-lug thread on adapter. But this would have added more length and weight and I wanted.


For you maybe having a Gemtech Talon Colt 9mm AR-15 upper would be a good choice.

IM me sometime and lets go shooting. I’ve got some toys you might love to shoot.

One more update:

So, I had to go and buy a Rock River Arms 9mm bolt. When the bolt came in I replaced the pins with ones from Ace Hardware. I also picked up an AAC CMK Rate Reducing buffer. With the suppressor I tried different buffer springs until I got a combination that was just right.

I have to say the combination of the suppressor, AAC CMK Rate Reducing buffer and the Tubbs Extra Power carbine spring gives a very soft recoil, and is still reliable if fired held loosely with one hand. With an M16 lower the rate of fire is slow, but this may change when I have my machinist ramp the bolt. The recoil is so smooth and controllable that at 10 yards a 5 round burst can be kept to the head without much practice (i.e. I’m not that good and I could do it within 50 rounds).

I still have to go and buy a Tripower optic, but for now I have a Reflex on there.

I plan to talk to my machinist next week and have him ramp the bolt. I also plan to add the next generation KNS pins to keep the pins from breaking with the 9mm setup.