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Posted: 4/9/2017 4:53:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Surprised to see trigger spring as #2 after mag failures.
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Posted: 4/9/2017 4:56:40 PM EDT
[#2]
must be referring to light strikes as trigger/hammer spring failure no? that's just the wrong spring for the ammo, not really a failure.
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Posted: 4/9/2017 5:01:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Define "fails" - shoots once, but then doesn't cycle? Or doesn't shoot in the first place? Or doesn't hit what you aimed at?
The list varies by where in the life-cycle of your rifle you are, and what your specific problem is. Of all the (what I consider) failures I've encountered over the decades, of any kind, none have been trigger spring related. Most have been ammo or magazine related, and only very occasionally related to lube or cleaning issues. |
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Posted: 4/9/2017 5:45:29 PM EDT
[#4]
To be fair, 4 of your items are because of wear and use, which is not the same as just "failing".
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Posted: 4/9/2017 7:15:34 PM EDT
[#5]
I don't want to get hung up on what fail means. It may actually mean different things to different people. "Fail" to me means the gun stops running.
Trigger springs are there because of a video. This video interviewed an armorer at one of those Las Vegas shooting ranges where you can rent guns. In the video he was asked what went wrong most in an AR15 or what do you have to replace the most and he said trigger springs. If you feel this is wrong, please say so. Please feel free to just delete things off my list you think are wrong or add things. |
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Posted: 4/11/2017 2:02:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Not sure what order it should come in but gas issues is a common reason for failing, also buffer weights being off.
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Posted: 4/11/2017 2:03:37 PM EDT
[#7]
In my experience I would say:
Most common are ammo and magazine related. After that I would list BCG and gas system. Lastly I would go with FCG or Buffer system. Ammo Magazines BCG -gas key -extractor Gas system -gas block alignment -gas port size -gas tube FCG -trigger spring -hammer spring Buffer -spring And above all that: Proper Maintenance. Something like that. |
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Posted: 4/11/2017 2:49:46 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 4/12/2017 12:57:25 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In my experience I would say: Most common are ammo and magazine related. After that I would list BCG and gas system. Lastly I would go with FCG or Buffer system. Ammo Magazines BCG -gas key -extractor Gas system -gas block alignment -gas port size -gas tube FCG -trigger spring -hammer spring Buffer -spring And above all that: Proper Maintenance. Something like that. |
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Posted: 4/12/2017 12:58:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
link |
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Posted: 4/13/2017 12:49:11 AM EDT
[#11]
Any magazine, ammo, or maintenance related issues should really be separate from the routine mechanical failures.
With magazines you would have to address individual brands and models for lifetime/wear/failures. Ammo and maintenance are dependent on the end user, so that's not really a constant. It would also help to know what the purpose of the list is to know what you are trying to accomplish. |
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Posted: 4/13/2017 1:04:00 AM EDT
[#12]
adding to the ammo---- heard of primers falling out getting stuck in the trigger group
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Posted: 4/13/2017 1:16:32 AM EDT
[#13]
Well from what I've found the extractor/ejector is a weak design. This is even more obvious in the AR-10 with it's ejection issues... But a O-ring and extra power extractor spring seems to help a lot in the AR-15 platform. Also using a heavy buffer seems to help a lot. Adjustable gas blocks are great to help fine tune the gas system. Pretty much all my AR's get extra power extractor springs and O-rings and heavy buffers and adjustable gas blocks.
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Posted: 4/13/2017 1:12:45 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well from what I've found the extractor/ejector is a weak design. This is even more obvious in the AR-10 with it's ejection issues... But a O-ring and extra power extractor spring seems to help a lot in the AR-15 platform. Also using a heavy buffer seems to help a lot. Adjustable gas blocks are great to help fine tune the gas system. Pretty much all my AR's get extra power extractor springs and O-rings and heavy buffers and adjustable gas blocks. |
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Posted: 4/13/2017 1:42:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So can the extractor spring be beefed up and an O-ring added without making any other changes? If there is no downside in doing this why is this not mil spec/ why do AR15 manufacturers not do this? What is the point of this list? |
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Posted: 4/13/2017 1:46:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So can the extractor spring be beefed up and an O-ring added without making any other changes? If there is no downside in doing this why is this not mil spec/ why do AR15 manufacturers not do this? The proper corrective action was to redesign the spring, P/N 13004786. 
Extraction problems are usually a symptom, not a cause.... |
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Posted: 4/13/2017 2:28:11 PM EDT
[#17]
In order to properly analysis why any system fails to function properly, one need to look at all the possible failures and, in turn, all the possible causal factor to each of these failures.
I was going to go into a long winded explanation, but to keep it short, just look up what a "wish-bone" diagram is, and make one for the AR (actually it will be good for any automatic, or semi-automatic, firearm). Then you just look for which parts are at the tips of each "bone".... You will find that "ammunition" and "magazines" account for a large number of problems. |
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Posted: 4/13/2017 2:29:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I notice you are separating ammo from magazine. Please elaborate on this if you would. |
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Posted: 4/13/2017 5:17:37 PM EDT
[#19]
An M16 will fail when an inattentive PFC leans his against a HUMVEE and then drives off without it. I wish I had a picture, it was a sight to behold.
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Posted: 4/14/2017 8:00:07 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An M16 will fail when an inattentive PFC leans his against a HUMVEE and then drives off without it. I wish I had a picture, it was a sight to behold. with an M113. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 12:45:58 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They do. What is the point of this list? |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 1:01:04 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In order to properly analysis why any system fails to function properly, one need to look at all the possible failures and, in turn, all the possible causal factor to each of these failures. I was going to go into a long winded explanation, but to keep it short, just look up what a "wish-bone" diagram is, and make one for the AR (actually it will be good for any automatic, or semi-automatic, firearm). Then you just look for which parts are at the tips of each "bone".... You will find that "ammunition" and "magazines" account for a large number of problems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawa_diagram |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 1:10:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Failures I've had and witnessed.
77 grain military Black Hills ammo (262?)...shed a primer and tied up the trigger group. A brass shaving got into the barrel extension and tied the rifle up hard, took about 5 minutes during a match to figure it out and scrape the bastard out. Rifle started the day out clean and functioned perfectly until...Shazaam! Hasn't done it since, feed ramps look good, ejected brass is in good shape. Gremlins. I've had a set screw gas block shoot loose during a high volume course of fire, turning the rifle into a bolt action. I also witnessed it happen to multiple other competitors, leading to my preference for taper pinned gas blocks. I've seen stocks break when being mortared open. I've had crappy mags that I stomped flat and threw away. I've seen others hoard their crappy mags, and be mystified when they have ongoing problems. I've seen the internal bubble level on a Springfield Armory shoot loose and obscure the reticle. I've seen scopes fail to hold zero or track properly. Stuff happens. Happens less when you use good ammo, good mags, and pay attention. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 4:53:59 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is this the diagram you mean? It looks to me as if this method is used for the design of something. We already have a design. Points of failure in that design are the subject. There is a secondary problem common in all machines related to a simple fix. The questions becomes will simply changing one part result in some sort of imbalance in the machine's (in this case the AR's) working, causing a secondary failure somewhere else? This secondary question is what I am asking concerning the replacement of the extractor spring and rubber retainer. Will introducing a spring of higher tension cause a problem somewhere else? I suspect it will or the original design would have called for a spring of higher tension. Nevertheless, the new spring may be the best solution to extractor problems, even if it causes other problems, I don't know. Does anyone have any comments on this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawa_diagram In this exercise, if you do the diagram right, each part that can cause a failure will show up at the top of all failures it will cause. For example, the extractor spring will show up at the top of "failure to extract" and "failure to lock" as the wrong spring tension can result in both of these outcomes. (Too weak, it jumps the rim during extraction, too strong, it won't jump the rim during locking.) And, all the o-ring does in increase the effective spring force on the end of the extractor, i.e., makes the extractor think it has a stronger spring under it. The improved spring design does that as well as having a different buffer insert optimized for the M4 extraction cycle. Remember the original spring was designed for a rifle length gas system. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 8:09:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Failures I've had and witnessed. 77 grain military Black Hills ammo (262?)...shed a primer and tied up the trigger group. A brass shaving got into the barrel extension and tied the rifle up hard, took about 5 minutes during a match to figure it out and scrape the bastard out. Rifle started the day out clean and functioned perfectly until...Shazaam! Hasn't done it since, feed ramps look good, ejected brass is in good shape. Gremlins. I've had a set screw gas block shoot loose during a high volume course of fire, turning the rifle into a bolt action. I also witnessed it happen to multiple other competitors, leading to my preference for taper pinned gas blocks. I've seen stocks break when being mortared open. I've had crappy mags that I stomped flat and threw away. I've seen others hoard their crappy mags, and be mystified when they have ongoing problems. I've seen the internal bubble level on a Springfield Armory shoot loose and obscure the reticle. I've seen scopes fail to hold zero or track properly. Stuff happens. Happens less when you use good ammo, good mags, and pay attention. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 8:11:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you think you find out what parts cause things to fail? It can be used during design or in-service. Preferably both, as during service failure show up that you didn't expect to see during design. In this exercise, if you do the diagram right, each part that can cause a failure will show up at the top of all failures it will cause. For example, the extractor spring will show up at the top of "failure to extract" and "failure to lock" as the wrong spring tension can result in both of these outcomes. (Too weak, it jumps the rim during extraction, too strong, it won't jump the rim during locking.) And, all the o-ring does in increase the effective spring force on the end of the extractor, i.e., makes the extractor think it has a stronger spring under it. The improved spring design does that as well as having a different buffer insert optimized for the M4 extraction cycle. Remember the original spring was designed for a rifle length gas system. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 11:18:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Somebody needs to diagram a fault tree for the M16/M4 family of weapons.
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Posted: 4/15/2017 2:14:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, this the second time you have asked this question. To me, it sounds like you are gearing up to make some sort of statement. Why don't you do that? |
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Posted: 4/15/2017 11:42:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No statement. Just curious if you are using this to compare against other weapons or if you are compiling something for training. |
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Posted: 4/15/2017 11:43:34 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Somebody needs to diagram a fault tree for the M16/M4 family of weapons. |
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Posted: 4/15/2017 11:59:58 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you guys do this? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Somebody needs to diagram a fault tree for the M16/M4 family of weapons. Absolutely. |
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Posted: 4/15/2017 2:16:18 PM EDT
[#32]
BLUF: it won't happen, there is no standardization of practices or equipment in this environment
the problems I would predict in introducing a simple flowchart for a malfunctioning weapon and/or cycles of operation interruption in this forum: agreement over what is "standard", a "malfunction", and what is "basic" I have a flowchart at work for this, but it is for issued weapons and I am sure that this information would be met with frustration and resistance (if not outright vitriol) over what is, and is not, included best practices may include: learn basic system functions, learn modification(s) functions, understand basic system and modification(s) interactions |
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Posted: 4/15/2017 8:23:27 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Somebody needs to diagram a fault tree for the M16/M4 family of weapons. |
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Posted: 4/15/2017 8:31:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
adding to the ammo---- heard of primers falling out getting stuck in the trigger group |
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Posted: 4/15/2017 8:47:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Someone used to sell a plastic "mat" that went on the inside bottom of the receiver that was supposed to prevent that |
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Posted: 4/15/2017 8:48:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would be very big . . . |
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Posted: 4/15/2017 10:57:39 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BLUF: it won't happen, there is no standardization of practices or equipment in this environment the problems I would predict in introducing a simple flowchart for a malfunctioning weapon and/or cycles of operation interruption in this forum: agreement over what is "standard", a "malfunction", and what is "basic" I have a flowchart at work for this, but it is for issued weapons and I am sure that this information would be met with frustration and resistance (if not outright vitriol) over what is, and is not, included best practices may include: learn basic system functions, learn modification(s) functions, understand basic system and modification(s) interactions |
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Posted: 4/16/2017 12:11:58 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I notice you are separating ammo from magazine. Please elaborate on this if you would. Basically if you aren't using good ammo and mags then a malfunction could be traced back to the mags, ammo or both. So I choose to separate them. Good ammo + Good mag = G2G Good ammo + Bad mag = Chance of Malfunction Bad ammo + Good mag = Chance of Malfunction Bad ammo + Bad mag = Very high chance of Malfunction |
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Posted: 4/16/2017 7:44:18 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because I've had malfunctions using quality ammo with cheap Thermold and Tapco magazines. I have also had malfunctions using questionable reloads with good USGI mags and Pmags. Basically if you aren't using good ammo and mags then a malfunction could be traced back to the mags, ammo or both. So I choose to separate them. Good ammo + Good mag = G2G Good ammo + Bad mag = Chance of Malfunction Bad ammo + Good mag = Chance of Malfunction Bad ammo + Bad mag = Very high chance of Malfunction |
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Posted: 4/16/2017 11:26:45 PM EDT
[#40]
OP that list is FUBAR
1, is shitty magazine 2 is shitty ammo 3 is under lubed 4 is shitty user maintenance there are no other reasons |
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Posted: 4/17/2017 7:52:07 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP that list is FUBAR 1, is shitty magazine 2 is shitty ammo 3 is under lubed 4 is shitty user maintenance there are no other reasons And, many would say the #3 is covered under #4 |
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Posted: 4/17/2017 12:26:46 PM EDT
[#42]
6 a/ b have absolutely nothing to do with the rifle failing.
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Posted: 4/17/2017 2:31:17 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6 a/ b have absolutely nothing to do with the rifle failing. |
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Posted: 4/19/2017 12:36:52 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP that list is FUBAR 1, is shitty magazine 2 is shitty ammo 3 is under lubed 4 is shitty user maintenance there are no other reasons This abbreviated list is kinda cool though. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 10:10:42 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
link |
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Posted: 4/27/2017 11:28:49 AM EDT
[#46]
I'e only had 2 and 9 happen to me.
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Posted: 5/1/2017 6:35:11 PM EDT
[#47]
@HenrySS
I don't have a way to post this massive chart, but I can get a lot of folks started down a path using some critical thought. I'll use the U.S. Army FM for marksmanship to define a lot of these terms, just for sake of organizing some thoughts First, a definition of terms: Stoppage(s) - a stoppage is a failure to complete the cycle of operation Malfunction(s) - a condition caused by a procedural or mechanical failure of the rifle, magazine, or ammunition NOTE: a malfunction is a specific type of stoppage There is absolutely no way to determine which stoppages or malfunctions occur the most, but: Typical stoppages include, but are not limited to: failure to feed, failure to extract, and failure to eject Stoppages are often caused by: failure to seat the magazine until locked, lack of lubrication on the bolt and carrier assembly, and fouling Typical malfunctions include, but are not limited to: failure to fire, and failure to feed, chamber, or lock Malfunctions are often caused by: damaged magazines, dirt or fouling in and around the bolt and carrier assembly, improperly-loaded magazines, weak, broken, or missing springs, fouled gas system, broken bolt lugs, broken cam pin, case head separation I have arranged the stoppages and malfunctions into what I have seen from most frequent to least frequent, but still frequent enough to be of note If you want to know more about how the weapon fails, I can recommend FM 3-22.9 (with the included 2011 Change 1 document). Keep in mind, while it has some good information, it does require thought on the reader's part. It does need some revisions, as there are some technical errors. The errors are ignored by people that know better anyhow Another thought-provoking book would be any M16-series rifle, M4-Series carbine 23&P maintenance manual, regardless of year Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would love to see this. We could discuss your chart and realize it is an advancement over what we have now (which is nothing) so no frustration, resistance or vitriol. |
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Posted: 5/5/2017 9:22:04 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Like you, I am curious. as for the OP's question...........6 a/b isn't the AR-15's fault A is the fault of the optic and B is the "fault" of battery tech in general. So, those should be eliminated. Besides if you have BUIS or the original design of the platform it is a non-issue. |
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Posted: 5/5/2017 10:41:49 PM EDT
[#49]
You can't attribute red dot failures to the rifle. That's a separate system.
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Posted: 5/26/2017 6:18:37 PM EDT
[#50]
More specific reading here
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