I was holding off on getting one of these, I wanted an early model and best I could figure it would be the one with round opaque dome and light green element. A Single Point came up on Ebay a few days ago that appeared to be what I was looking for, only negative was the caps for the sight adjustments wasn't included otherwise it was as clean as a whistle and included the box that was well worn. Cost me $105 delivered to the door which probably is about average these days. Receiving it today I noticed marked on the box 16min which indicated to me it had a rifle/pistol small dot. The green dot wasn't very strong in low light in the house but taken outside it was quite bright and very visable. I mounted the Single Point on a ArmaLite AR180 1" scope mount and it fit perfect. Doing further reading here on AR15 from a magazine article going back to 1970 when ArmaLite Costa Mesa introduced the Single Point I read that they had what I believe to be three models, rifle, shotgun (large dot)  and a night model, they also mentioned a red dot element in the article. Since the photos were black and white there was no way to confirm the color of the elements. Pictured were round domes that were clear and also what looked like opaque. My Single Point is serial # 12056 which I believe is a fairly low serial number. Also stamped on the box I noticed an N in a circle and wonder what that signifies. Does anyone have any idea as to which Single Point would be the night model and what color was the element and was the round dome clear or opaque? I know it's probably slim to none but if anyone has a spare set of Single Point caps for the windage adjustment I'd be greatful. If I'v mentioned anything that seems off base please set it straight since I don't claim to be an expert on these Single Points.

The photos for the Son Tay raid seem to show clear lenses and they do appear to be dome shaped, not conical on the Raiders' Singlepoint sights. Also hard to tell what color the element is, but one clearly seems to be of the red variety. That's all I've ever seen for sale is red not green dots, but I don't follow all the auctions so much anymore.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=390953 - Here is an older thread. Like anything else, photos can be hard to interpret and ongoing research often calls for reevaluation.

We think the first models were the green dot model, not the one dome red like used in the son tay raid. I have several versions as does user Lusciousclay and I like the frosted green dome the best.   I saw the sight listed on ebay and wondered if anyone on the forum would grab it.  As for a "night model" I haven't came across a singlepoint that had any tritium or a radiation warning on it, so Im a bit skeptical of there actually being one that glowed.

b rogers per the 1970 magazine article ArmaLite that was posted here on AR15 rep stated that the early models were tritium, the article didn't say why it was discontinued. I must of spent a day searching re the Single Point almost everything was from AR15, I have a vague memory of something possibly from NRC that tritium was discontinued except for military use, I'll try to find it again. The Brits were using the Single Points, SAS etc, prior to ArmaLite adopting them, British Major was part of the ArmaLite demo team. The circled N has me suspicious, it's a good 45 years since these have been mfg and I was surprised how bright the green dot was outside in sunlight. I'll have to read everything again carefully. I'm sure someone here knows the specifics. Agree that the raid Single Points appear to be red element with clear round dome.

Learn something new everyday. Did not know about the Brit Armalite connection. So that is where the green element and opaque dome comes in?

Found that article...I wonder how many were actually produced?

http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=624446

All the Single Points in the article and even the ArmaLite advertisement look like they are clear round domes, I'm unsure of the color, green or red, since it's in black and white. In a prior thread someone had a sight in the 4000 range. In some of the threads the photos have been deleted so we are out of luck there. Might be able to figure out the progression of features if members list the serial number, color of element and lens style, round/flat/clear/opaque and if possible photo.

Did another Google image search and came up with a photo of a round clear dome red element Single Point sight along with the box flap marked similar to mine. This one was #34184, 42min (large dot), D in a circle. I'll go out on a limb and take a guess that as ArmaLite said there were day and night versions, the difference must of been in the strength of the element that was stronger for night and weaker for day. I havn't seen any indication, marking on the Single Point sight itself just on the box with D or N stamped. Due to the age of the sights the original strength of the sight surely has deminished and there is no way to determine what brightness strength we have now is in relation to when they were new. It's possible the dome switched from frosted to clear to allow more light to access the element making it brighter under more conditions. As for what appears to be the earlier green color of the element switching to red I can only guess that red might of stood out better under more lighting conditions. Tell me if I'm missing something here.

I kinda wonder if the clear dome could be the night version to allow more light in ?  The ST Raiders had clear domes and that was a night mission.

I have the frosted dome, green dot.  It still works pretty good, but fading.  It's in a plain brown factory box, not the typical black and red box.

Lowest serial number I have is 1393X green dot round and frosted dome. Plain brown box with serial number hand written on the end.
Next is 2144X it has red dot round clear dome. No box.
Last is  4314X with red dot and a clear conical dome. On this one the last digit is very lightly stamped and barely visible. No box.
I have a fourth one which is mounted in an unusual AR-15 mount. The mount on this one covers the serial number. It also has the clear round dome with red dot.
In daylight the dots are all bright but in dim light the conical shaped one is much brighter.
I think I have some paperwork from Armalite on these. I will try to locate it.

Ok guys, I located the letter from ArmaLite Inc.
Text of letter as follows:

                                           Dec. 11, 1970


Gentlemen,
        The Singlepoint Day/Night Sight is presently unavailable for sale to other than the U.S. Military within the boundaries of the U.S.

As the sight uses a radium light source, it falls under the Atomic Energy Commission's supervision. A special license is required for sale within the U.S. To even individuals or law enforcement agencies. It can be sold to anyone outside the U.S. However.

 Action has been taken to obtain the required license. We are unable at this time, however, to provide an estimated date as to when the sight will be released for general sale.
 
  We suggest that you make further inquiry in about six months.

                                  Sincerely,

                                   ArmalLite, Inc.

                                    Burton T. Miller
                                    Vice-President

Ar10ER thanks for posting the letter from Burton Miller of ArmaLite re the Single Point being no longer available for sale other than to the US military. I doubt that it was solely the NRC that had a hand in it and more likely that the US military wanted to reserve all present and future Single Point sights for their exclusive use. As I mentioned before the British military/SAS were probably the first to use the Single Point and the sale may of been restricted in GB also till hostilities in SE Asia ended. I wonder when the Single Points were finally available for sale to the public? Re the opaque and clear domes I would of thought the clear dome would be the "night" model but after finding a sight with the clear dome and red element with the box marked D for day that theory doesn't seem to work out but who knows for sure.

Wow...Interesting letter.  The Timothy Leary's would throw a fit today over that....In addition to a "conflict" in SEA.

According to Schemmer, the raiders found the Singlepoint in a Guns and Ammo magazine.  That would be around summer / early Fall of 70.

I check my boxes, no N or D anywhere. frosted green serial number is in the 10,000 range, the round clear red is 24000 range and the conical frosted is in a mount so i can't see the number. The box is totally different and says "Singlepoint avionics"

Here is my SP with frosted dome and green dot. Plane box.  From gun-broker.  Below is a pic of the green (tritium?) element.  Pic was posted here years ago, not mine.

Wow, thats the proof right there. The greenie I had apart didnt have a fiber optic like that, it was more like the red.  If my green wasnt MINT and the dome is tight, I would be popping off that cover and ordering some tritium vials.  Great pic Hal!

Hal143 from the photo you posted of the SP box I compared it to my box and it appears to be the same inner box with styrafoam bottom and top inserts and you are missing the outer black box. My outer black box is missing the flap on one end but fortunately the other flap with the info/markings survived. The opaque round cap on my SP wont budge and I don't want to force it off but when looking at it in bright light it looks to be exactly the same size/shape as the green element in the second photo. All the serial numbers and SP descriptions re domes and color and if possible box markings are starting to build a decent data base. Someone else might disagree but I'm leaning towards the SPs with the clear round dome and red element were the "correct" SP for the Colt and ArmaLite rifles. I wouldn't rule out the earlier serial numbered SPs with frosted round dome and green element as not having potential for use with these rifles until production or purchase dates can be linked to the serial numbers in some fashion.  Note: Checking old threads from a couple years back I found one with photos posted by RLR350 of a SP with round clear dome red element and he mentions his is a daytime version of the SP. Also the SP box changed over time, I'v seen what appears later models with Normark on the box, also even later the inner cardboard box was eliminated and the SP came with only the two piece inner styrafoam container.

Good info.  I always thought also maybe the smooth finish scopes came before the textured ones.   The plane box always puzzled me.  I know at the time a seller on GB
bi the name SAFOM27 was selling several of them NIB for 30 each.  All in plain boxs.

Yes it would be very nice to somehow insert a tritium vial back into these.

Note the revolver has the same "Band" type mounts as the AR mount..

. I kept searching Google image and finally found something of interest from milsurp.com with a photo of two Single Points both textured finish, round clear dome. #1 is a SP with a RED element and from the notation for DAY use. #2 is a SP with a GREEN element and from the notation states it has BETA LIGHT for DAY/NIGHT use. This thread was related to British service rifles on milsurp.com and discussing what scopes were used with them, roughly 1970s onward. Not knowing the serial #s and date of mfg of the two pictured SPs leaves in doubt if these two SP were representative of what was available in the fall of 1970 for the Colt and ArmaLite rifles. We might need better detailed photos of the SPs both from the ST raid and the ArmaLite magazine article to find out what model color element was used. If the green element SP with BETA LIGHT was for day/night you would think this would of been the SP model used for the night raid. Maybe an AR15 member that knows photography could examine the photos, I know some digital photos can have "red eye". Hal I agree the smooth finish were probably very early examples, textured followed for better locking with rings. Only guessing the plain box SPs might be surplus from British military which tested them in 1971 but were not adopted.

This is kinda funny for those who have not read it before.  I just thought I would post it up since we're talking about SP's

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1971/feb/17/the-singlepoint-sight

Ive never seen a clear dome green version, and its obvious the raiders had clear red dome sights and red goggles on to boot. Since it seems they ordered theirs from the back of Guns and Ammo, I'm betting their sights didn't have tritium.

If someone more PC capable could go to milsurp.com search Single Point and find the photo of the two SPs with notation and post it here, there are also two other different brand sights in the photo, this would make for good future documentation. If I read correctly from the after action report 50 SPs were rush ordered from ArmaLite after seeing what I suspect was the Oct 1970 article in Gun World. ArmaLite at that time may of had a limited stock of SPs many of them being the red/day sight, a couple photos I looked at were debatable and could of been green night/day. According to the story line it was supposed to be moonlight conditions that night and the red/day sight might of been adequate enough to function. Off hand I can't remember seeing any clear round dome SPs with green element other than in the milsurp.com photo, all the green element models I'v seen had the round frosted dome. Between the info I read in Gun World Oct 1970 and the ArmaLite letter re the RESTRICTED sale of the clear dome green element day/night sight ONLY to the US and foreign military this accounts for none being available then or in later years to the civilian/sporting market or even law enforcement without a special license from the US govt. According to the Oct 70 Gun World article ArmaLite had exclusive rights for US military, foreign military and law enforcement sales, the Normark Corp of Minn. had the exclusive rights to civilian/sporting sales.

This?:



http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=42538&page=8

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=29466

From the looks of this picture, the single point I had that was trashed and gutted was a SP231 (looks like thats the official number for the Beta light version)  I tossed it after figuring out the adjusters were stripped.  

44echo10 many thanks for pitching in with the photo of the two Single Points. Also B Rogers many thanks for adding the pages with the technical background info re the operation of the Single Point sights both red and green, from now on there shouldn't be any guessing as to each models purpose and components. The Single Point was tested by the British military in 1971 but not adopted but I'v found mention that the British SAS units made use of the Single Point much like US Special Forces did. Like other equipment some Single Points may have been privately purchased like the Colt scopes. Knowing now the Single Point was originally introduced in 1968 gives us a much better time line with the serial numbers and changes in the domes from frosted to clear and the US restriction of the green tritium day/night sight. From the Oct 1970 Gun World article according to Major Keene thousands had already been sold prior in New Zealand for hunting/sporting purposes.

I have shot with them (the single point) they work amazingly well, weird to use (very weird) but impressive. Just like magic, like looking at black wall, that works....
They are surprising accurate.

I don't have one myself, but in a sudden thread hijack, I have used the other trials sight plenty, and they are surprising accurate too..

I really wish I'd bought one of those when they were available.

Darn, I have five of the sights but no bases.  The only one I know of is in Sydney and the owner isn't giving it up.

Young-Kiwi no problem adding the Ring Sight to the thread, it gives us more perspective as to how the different sights compared/performed. From the Single Point article in Gun World Oct 1970 Major Keene mentioned that the Single Point was already being used by thousands of hunters in New Zealand, would you be aware if the Single Point was also popular in Australia and other Commonwealth countries? Guessing by the serial numbers around 15,000 had been sold in two years prior to the article in Gun World Oct 1970.

It seems like there was an article on the Singlepoint in Guns magazine back in late 1970 also. Does anyone have a copy of that article?

I would guess, because it was the height of the Helicopter deer hunting. So having a 'dot scope' helped them a lot.

Bottom right-
S/N 15088 16moa Clear Red Dome AR180 Mount

Middle Right-
S/N 11077 16moa Clear Red Dome NIB

Top right-
S/N 22074 16moa Clear Red Dome NIB

Middle bottom-
S/N 29876 16moa Clear Red Dome NIB

Middle middle-
S/N A03220 Frosted Red Conical   Model SP241 NIB
(Note- Smaller dot than 16moa- Approx. 12moa)

Middle top-
S/N 13965 16moa Frosted Green Dome NIB

For OEG comparison-
Bottom left-
Early ‘80’s  Armson OEG (tritium)
(Owned since new)

Top left-
Rimfire Armson OEG (No tritium, although a tritium version was available)

My notes also show that I sold the earliest one I have owned- S/N 8073, a used Frosted Green Dome 16 moa SP, and S/N 30988, a used Clear Red Dome 16 moa. (Also the highest S/N I have owned)
I also sold a used 42 moa Clear Red Dome SP, but I don’t have the S/N.

No SP that I have ever seen or owned showed any indication of a tritium element. Trijicon’s website lists 1981 as the introduction of the tritium OEG, and 1983 as it’s availability in stores as the first tritium gunsight- Trijicon History

I focused my collection primarily on the clear red dome sights, as that's what I believe were used for the Son Tay raid, although I don't usually pass any of them up.

All depending as to who is referring to the SP green day/night sight I have seen it refered to as being a tritium, beta and radium element.  If there is a substantial difference between tritium/beta/radium maybe someone can point it out. More telling is that no one on AR15 has a clear round dome green element day/night SP, they are all either red/clear or green/frosted. With the addition of all the SPs by MA SP7 with the descriptions and serial numbers this is a big addition to the data base. Again I checked photos for the element colors of the SPs on the raid and best I can tell at least one of the SPs is green with clear round dome while a couple other SPs are red, other SPs are no way of telling which color. My guess is that the SPs used on the raid were whatever ArmaLite had in stock at the time which I'm guessing was a very limited inventory since they were just starting to market the SP along with the Costa Mesa AR18/180 rifles. From the after action report I read that a total of 50 were purchased from ArmaLite.

This one appears to be a clear dome green as well.

Clear dome, yes. But I don't see even a hint of green, (or red), on my monitor(s). So I'd call it inconclusive.
Are there any raid photos of confirmed green SP's. Not saying they don't exist, but I haven't seen any.

Tritium/Beta/Radium-

Tritium is Beta, Radium is different.
Tritium is much safer. Radium hasn't been used for illumination since around the 60's due to the dangers so I'm assuming that the illuminated SP's had Tritium. The one SP ad did state "Beta", and since they look to be early scopes, I'm quessing they were all Tritium.

I'm not saying Tritium SP's don't exist. They obviously do. I just don't believe that they were available to the public.

I went back and again read the Gun World Oct 1970 article re the SP, it mentions that the sights a few months back formerly used radio active material. My belief is that it was tritium in the green frosted round dome SPs, I found that radium was considered a very dangerous and it was very unlikely that it was ever used for the SPs. Further research I once again ran into a thread on FalFiles from 2010 where members had purchased tritium and were installing it in their Fal sights. They were able to increase or decrease the brightness by using varied strengths and amounts of tritium. My conclusion was the same was done with the SPs, the frosted dome was initially used due to the higher amount of tritium, later using less tritium they switched to a clear round dome sight that was only sold to the US military. I'm guessing that the frosted dome green element tritium day/night sights were brought into the US without approval or knowledge of the Federal Nuclear regulatory agency until about mid 1970 when it was discovered and stopped. Re the OEG it wasn't clear as to who was first with a tritium sight since they referenced the SP. My reading of it was that the OEG was the first to be officially authorized to use tritium in 1981 or 1983. I agree many of the photos of the SPs pictured in Vietnam are inconclusive as to the color of the element.

I've never seen one either.  Not totally convinced they exist.  I said it appears to be green due to lack of any red which should be obvious in pic.  Would like to see pic Kobren mentions of Son Tay Raider with clear/green SP.

OK, I just took my green frosted dome, crinkle finished 12 moa sight serial num 1098X and held it up to the sun while looking through the frosted dome with a loupe, theres no tritium vial in there.. The element looks the same as the pic on page one, not like the later red version (like a magic marker tip).  I can see the fiber optic button and although its shaped like the pic there is nothing in the center.  I would imagine aimed directly at bright sun any of the "beta" scopes would have both reticles visible.

These are the only visible box markings I have-

22074 is marked on the inner box and has the Circle D (Day?) and a real faint 16 Min.

11077 is marked on the outer box and has the same Circle D, and SP 16

It also looks to me like the same person wrote the S/N's

Yep, both my boxes have the serial number in that handwriting, so they must have worked there a while... No D or 16 or 12 anywhere, but my sights are 12moa. The last one I sold was 16moa and had a noticeably bigger dot.

My sights S/N's are contemporary with yours and they're 16 moa.
The manuals I have with them reference only 16 moa and 42 moa sights, and I have never seen an original SP that wasn't 16 or 42 moa.

How does the size or your early SP dots compare to your later conical SP?

I optically measured and compared an early 16 moa red clear dome SP with my later conical SP241 and estimated the SP241 at 12 moa. I also took the 16 moa dot and increased the size 2.625 times to simulate the 42 moa dot-

Nothing scientific, and maybe my eyes aren't so good anymore but all three appear to have the same or SUPER close to the same size dot. I had three red clear domes and sold two of them, one of them having a slightly bigger dot than the rest, but no way it was  42moa.  My armson has the finest dot of them all FWIW.  Ill break them all out again tonight and line them up and see..

i've got a red one that has the dinner plate sized dot.  definitely noticeably larger.

Yeah, you'll know a 42 when you see it... I should have kept mine just to have an example.

I've noticed that the red ones I've had vary slightly, but they're not that close to the conical SP241.
The green frosted SP dot looks smaller, no doubt due to the color and intensity.

Armson's are way smaller, but Iv'e noticed that as my eyes get worse the OEG's get more difficult to use.

Going back to the pages B Rogers posted re the SP with illustrations of the dot and post, the article said the SP was day light activated (red) and beta light illuminated (green). If tritium wasn't used then what was? Isn't beta another possible description of tritium. I'll attempt to take a closer look tomorrow at the green element in my SP to see if there is anything imbedded in it. In no way am I discounting any of the possibilities other AR15 members are offering. I'll try to find the militaria site again and see if anyone in England has the details we are looking for.

As I said before, Beta is Tritium

More info-

MASP7 thanks for providing the definition/description of tritium/beta. I checked my frosted dome green element SP this morning in the sunlight and I couldn't see anything standing out in the core of the green element, what I did notice was the top of the green element appeared to have a dark covering/layer that is possibly black. The frosted cap is on tight and I'm not going to attempt removing the cap, it's difficult to tell how thick this covering/layer is, the prior photo of a green element doesn't have this black covering. I'm waiting for responses to a thread I posted on milsurp.com, hopefully someone from England will reply that has a good bit of info.

I probably referred to it as a daytime version because that is what I have seen them called - as in the photos in this thread.  I still have it along with a green/frosted dome NIB one identical to the one Hal posted.

ETA:  I think every "rumor" I have heard is the illumination was provided by a vial of tritium in the "tip."  I have not read anywhere of a person actually seeing this though, so I am not convinced.

Here is what I think:  The article posted is the first account I have seen that actually describes the night version.  From the description in the article if an SP was illuminated it was with an inverted bar above the aperture. Based on the description and from taking one of these apart as much as possible without breaking it to figure out how it works, looking for vials in the tip is rather useless.  For the reticle to work the way it is described in the article the illuminating source (on a model that had it) would have to be behind the aperture to produce the sight picture as described in the "dusk" version - seeing the red dot and green bar above at the same time.

Here is why:  Inside of the outer tube housing is another tube called the collimater.  At one end is an aperture - a hole.  The diameter of the hole creates the 12, 16 or 42 moa dot.  The windage/height adjustments move the collimater tube and hole around.  When you look through the scope you are looking through the hole and seeing the back of the colored tip which makes the red or green dot (depending on the color of the tip).  The resulting red or green is from the tip collecting light - the same way a fiber optic does.  If you shine a bore light off center down inside the scope you can see how it is made.  While doing this you will see a "wall" with a hole in it at the far end.   The only way I can see to produce the self illuminating bar described in the article is by putting it directly above the aperture on the back side of the "wall." (back side is the side you are looking at when you look through the scope.)  So, at dusk you would see the red dot because the ambient light is still acting on the red tip.  The green bar would be seen above the hole/red dot because it is on the back side of the "wall."

If the tip was illuminated by a vial of tritium you would see a dot, not a bar,  and it would be the same color as the tip.  There would be no way to mix the red and green the way it is described.  With the light source fixed above and behind the aperture it would move with the adjustments and create the daytime red dot, dusk red dot and green bar above, and only the green bar at night.

It appears to me that there are three types of SP's - day use red tips (clear or frosted domes or rectangle domes) which create a red dot, day use green tips (frosted domes) which create a green dot, and then some version of a red dot with a green self illuminating bar above it.  From the company's letter, tritium or beta or whatever it was called was being used, but not imported to the US, so finding one would be really rare.  Even if one was found,  this illumination wouldn't be in the tip, it would be contained in the collimater above the aperture hole on the "wall."  Looking into both of mine there is no indication that there was anything remotely resembling this - it's just a simple hole.

I could be wrong......but, until I read or see something different, I am abandoning the vial in the tip rumors.

I was skeptical too until i saw this vial in tip pic, are you saying you don't think this is factory?