I sent an inquiry to Bravo Company, and I am really disappointed at their answer, which has me really wondering if they know what they're talking about. What say you?

I wrote:
"I am considering purchasing a BCM TRIGGER PNT POLISHED/NICKEL/TEFLON, the Model #PNTTA1. I built a 5.45mm x 39mm caliber rifle using an LWRC M6A2 piston upper on a Spikes Tactical Lower, using the trigger mechanism that came with the standard Spike's (Spider) Lower. Except, I replaced the hammer spring with a Wolf XP hammer spring, which is designed to improve common ignition problems when using hard primer ammunition, which is characteristic of the military surplus ammo I shoot in the 5.45mm x 39mm caliber ammo, most of which has the harder Berdan primers. If I purchase one of your triggers to enhance trigger performance, should I replace the hammer spring that comes with one of your performance triggers with the Wolf XP hammer spring so that I continue to get the benefits of the XP hammer spring, so the hammer will still perform when shooting military surplus ammo with the extra hard primers? Or, will the hammer spring that comes with your performance trigger still produce the improved trigger characteristics, while also simultaneously addressing the issue of the extra hard primers? Or, do you recommend that I go ahead and replace the spring supplied with your performance triggers with the Wolf XP Spring for shooting ammo with extra hard primers?

Their Answer:
"BCM triggers are made to milspec and will work with milspec pressured ammunition, the primers are irrelevant. Only use the spring that comes with the trigger."

I do not have an AK74 yet from their response I would say it is lacking for your question. I am an AR for the 556 nato yet the 5.45x39 seems like a good round over the 7.62 for the recoil side of it.

Why are you disappointed ? They clearly state that their springs will be sufficient with military ammunition.

I shoot ammo that comes in spam cans where the ammo is produced in the Eastern Block countries.  Standard springs that are contained in most lowers are widely known to be insuffiencient on surplus military ammunition where the harder berdan primers are used, milspec or not.  They say primers are "irrelevant," but that's a ridiculous statement when it's a widely known fact that berdan primers will often cause misfires when a standard spring is used.  The Wolf XP spring is specifically manufactured for that purpose.  I have no idea if surplus military ammo is manufactured to "Milspec" standards...which military, which country, etc...I don't know if China or Russia, or any of the other Eastern Block manufacturers, strictly adhere to SAMI, or anything else.

I frequently read how BCM is a cut above most other manufacturers, and I expected more of an understanding from them than that.  I sent that same inquiry to at least eight other trigger manufacturers, and none of them responded with that "irrelevant" primer statement.  All of them replied with the a specific answer about tension of the hammer springs included with their performance triggers as it relates to military surplus ammo, and they specifically addressed whether their springs would have sufficient tension for military surplus ammo.  They understood the significance of my question, and I doubt seriously if the respondent from BCM did.  

I expected a more enlightened reply from BCM than to completely discount the primers being harder than standard primers, when it's a widely known fact that harder primers, milspec or not, cause misfires when hammer tension isn't sufficient. Primer hardness is not "irrelevant" if you know what you are talking about.

You built it -- why wouldn't YOU know?

You built a Frankengun with components from a bunch of different sources.  I built darn near all of mine.  When I picked the parts I either knew or figured it out on my own.

Shoe-horning 5.45 into an AR platform is interesting but not all AR manufacturers make one.

What do you mean "why wouldn't I know"?  I'm not supposed to know what their performance specs on their components are off the top of my head, and especially when they do not publish them.  When you're considering individual components for a build, don't you want to know their specs?  It isn't my responsibility to know their specs, it's their responsibility to provide them.  These components all look virtually the same, and you can't ascertain the specs by simply looking at the components or online, especially if they don't publish the specs, right?  How can you know off the top of your head what one manufacturer's specs are if you don't ask them. That's what I was doing, asking them, and their reply was bogus, frankly.  One way I know is because the eight other manufacturers understood the question, and responded with a legitimate technical answer about their individual products as it relates to the harder primer issue.

There reply was in line with what they are selling, its you that cannot understand it.

AR parts that are "mil spec" are expected to work with 5.56/,223, not a wildcat, as 5.56 is what the gun is designed around.

They cannot tell you the specs on something they didn't design it for and especially with the hodge-podge parts you have.





BTW the primers are not "harder" the anvil is shorter/less compound, hence just file off the tail of the bolt if you want russian ammo to work in your gun without messing with the hammer springs.

"widely known fact"

if you use that term, you might want to know the facts yourself

Sorry, I don't buy it...then why did eight other manufacturers respond with answers that confirmed that they understood the significance of the question...and, no, I'm not filing down my bolt.

Maybe you could have been a bit less loquacious in your question.  I had to read it twice to be sure I knew what you were asking.

Try this:

"Is the XYZ trigger spring powerful enough to reliably ignite Russian 5.45mm ammunition?"

Well, maybe so, but all the other eight manufacturers understood the question...

And all 8 have tested it in a 5.45 conversion YOU built, with YOUR ammo?

Well, you call it a conversion, I didn't.  The upper was manufactured complete by LWRC in 5.45 x 39mm.  Look, all I can do is compare the answer I received from BCM versus the intelligent responses I received from eight other manufacturers that understood the significance of the question, and none of them referred to berdan primers as irrelevant within the context of the question, which indicates to me that the BCM respondent had no earthly concept of what they were talking about.  I did receive a response from one of the other companies where the female customer service agent admitted not knowing the answer.  At least she was honest.  Well, I suspect that BCM probably doesn't manufacture their triggers, and that's why they don't seem to know the answer.  I can assure you that when I sent that exact same question to Geiselle, they responded with a very direct and specific answer, and there was no ambiguity that they didn't understand the question.

I think there were saying primers were irrelevant in use with their trigger. In other words their stuff will work with all primers.

Yeah, that could be...Like I said, I kind of suspect they don't make them.  Somebody is probably private labeling them for BCM.  It just seems, compared to the other responses, that they didn't understand the technicalities, which surprised me, that's all...I don't own a BCM, but I read nothing but stellar reviews about them.  I would like to have one someday, just because of all the positive press about them.  BCM's response to my question just seemed beneath them, and inconsistent with their reputation when compared to all their positive press, and especially compared to the other responses I received, which is why I said I was a bit disappointed.  I guess I had unrealistic expectations of them due to all the postiive press, but if in fact they don't actually manufacture them, I guess I can understand it.

This.  I think they are saying their hammer strike is sufficient to reliably ignite all known primers.

Not all companies' customer service is the same. I have found BCM's lacking in the past. My suggestion is to just go with one of the other 8 companies that responded.

Yeah, that was my general conclusion too...

Well, actually, I've been researching triggers quite extensively, and I've ultimately concluded that for about $15.00, a dremel tool, a muslin wheel, some 400 grit sandpaper, and a little bit of jewelers rouge or flitzes polishing compund, I can get close enough to the trigger performance I like, while still using the Wolf XP spring, and do it all without spending much money.  So, I decided to do my own trigger job, and just continue to use the Wolf XP Spring to address the hard primers (I guess I should say, anvil with shorter/less compound characteristics, and not describe the primer as "harder," right?) .  For this particular rifle, the trigger performance doesn't rise to the performance level of the 3.5 lb. CMC trigger I have in my 5.56mm AR rifle, but it's acceptable.

One interesting thing I learned with regard to doing your own trigger job, especially with respect to the tutorials that are out there, many of them fail to mention that sometimes the friction between the side walls of the trigger well can have a pretty noticeable effect upon your getting a smooth trigger action.  I had polished all the contact surfaces on the trigger and hammer, but still experienced just a little bit of drag present as you pull the trigger.  It ended up being the contact area of the side walls of the trigger well, where the trigger and hammer pivot on the pivot pins.  The interesting thing is, I had absolutely no drag on a different lower, on an 80% lower that I built, which suggests that sometimes trigger/hammer wells, might produce a frictional resistance (drag) at those contact points between the sides of the trigger/hammer and the trigger/hammer wall.  If you polish and lubricate that area also, where the trigger/hammer pivot against the side wall of the trigger/hammer well, something that I did not find mentioned in most tutorials, it can make a pretty substantial difference with respect to smoothness.  Simple observation, but noteworthy for someone that has never done a trigger job.

That's how I read it as well.

Exactly...

And, BCM's response was measured to protect against later bitching by the OP that their trigger made for 5.56 ammo didn't work in his franken 5.45 AR.

Quizcat
What you really said with your "question" was:
"I have suspicions about your triggers capability" and then offered an unproven solution to an unknown problem.  

I can see why they gave you a very short and to the point answer.   My answer would have included something  like "up yours".

kwg

This is a technical forum.  Either post technical answers, or don't post. - Old_Painless

No, that's not what I implied with my question...and none of the others that responded were rude about it, like you were.  Oh, BCM should have answered a legitimate question with "up yours uh?"  

Nobody else was "measured"...lots of BCM fan boys here...Maybe I should give them a try.

Here is the answer I got from Jard, just as an example.  They are the first to bring up hammer weight.  Their response makes perfect sense, and it also shows they know what I'm referring to with respect to my question.  Their answer implies that my concern is perfectly valid with respect to hard primers.  Jard is one of the most, if not the most, preeminent trigger manufacturers in business, maybe, just maybe a notch above Geissele, CMC, Timney, etc.., all of which addressed the question with an understanding of the technicalities, and they certainly had no problem understanding the question.  I am willing to accept that I may have misinterpreted BCM's response.  If I did, my most humble apologies to BCM, but it's only because they were vague in their response, and because their response made me wonder whether they understood the technicalities, as some clearly DO NOT in this forum.  

"If you purchase the weighted hammer you should not have issues. Should you want a stronger hammer spring we offer part# 1610"

Why don't you just buy the trigger and try it as it comes?   If it won't ignite the "hard" primers in your ammo, then simply install the Wolf spring that you already have.
 

Well, that would of course be an option, but there are forces in play that might effect the way things work.  I would rather simply ask the "experts" the question first before I make the investment.  Some of these guys know the answers, Jard, Geiselle, CMC, Timney etc...and they demonstrated their understanding and knowledge with the quality of their answers.  I have enough back from them now that I've made my decision.  But, my original purpose for this thread was to simply express my disappointment with BCMs answer.  Some have pointed out that perhaps I misinterpreted their response to the question, and maybe so.  I appreciate those that brought up that possibility, and I'm totally open to it.  I apprecaite those that mentioned it in a courteous manner.  Do I appreciate those that want to get ugly?  Not so much...

Note, all of those companies manufacture triggers and trigger parts, specifically.  BCM sells a trigger, advertised as a mil-spec equivalent, nothing more, nothing less.  Of course they didn't go into lots of detail other than reiterate to you what they are selling in as simplistic terms as they could; they have no business interest in trying to entertain more.

Berdan primered Russian ammo is not made to the US's milspec at all... obviously.

IMO there is your answer.  Not sure why they said primers don't matter after that though.

Try it and if it doesn't work get a spring from somewhere else, they blew their shot at selling you one of theirs (if they even offer it)

Yeah, well that is true, they aren't in the same category as a manufacturer that focuses on high peformance triggers.  I suppose from their good reputation I was projecting onto them an expertise that doesn't probably exist with respect to trigger performance.  When I reviewed their information, I was hopeful that their expertise was a notch above other manufacturers that may also be casually involved in marketing triggers that are intended to be a upgrade to a standard trigger.  Their marketing information sounded good anyway...$60.00 sounds pretty good for the features they describe.
.  
"BCM PNT™ Trigger Assembly (Polished – Nickel – Teflon)

BCM quality, modern manufacturing processes, and aerospace coatings are combined to ensure parts last a lifetime while performing far beyond requirements established nearly six decades ago.

The BCM PNT™ Trigger and PNT™ Hammer are a precision machined Mil-Spec AISI8620 investment casting per the USGI TDP (Mil-Spec) for M16/M4 family of weapons. (not to be confused with MIM parts that are very common in the commercial market). 156/157 holes are honed to assist in perfect alignment and a smooth trigger pull.

After that, the BCM PNT™ Trigger and PNT™ Hammer then goes through a 3 step heat treat and case hardening process for optimal grain structure alignment, yielding a stronger and more wear resistance product.

Polished

The sear engagement surfaces are ground, but then hand polished for an increased smoothness and reduction in friction up to 300% beyond the Mil-Spec.

Nickel

An electroless nickel finish is applied for a smoother trigger pull with less ‘grit’ and reduced felt ‘creep’. Nickel also provides a long lasting finish that will not corrode, rust, or discolor due to oxidation.

Teflon

Teflon particles are embedded in the nickel, further reducing the friction of the interface and ensuring a long lasting coating. This is done on both the BCM PNT Trigger and Hammer in order to provide the maximum benefit allowed by the nickel coating, by augmenting the low friction and corrosion resistance.

This assembly includes our impact resistant trigger and hammer pins. They are centerless ground to a fine finish and superior tolerances to ensure compatibility with all MIL SPEC lower receivers built per the USGI TDP.

The BCM Disconnector is stamped from a 1070 material and fine blanked for cleaner edges, double disc ground to precise size. All hammer engagement surfaces are also ground for a super clean reset.

The processes and tolerances are matched in the BCM PNT™ Trigger Assembly to create a system better than the sum of its parts."

Totally.

 

And OP, if you already have the spring who gives a shit what BCM says? Try it out with the BCM springs, and if you have ignition failure, swap the hammer spring. Seems pretty easy to me.

Also, you have contacted nine different companies to all about 5.45 ignition? Buy something already!

And what of all that you posted above has to do with 5.45x39?  Nothing.  You sir are a master at clouding the issue with facts, and probably a pro at playing 20 questions or stump the chump.  I'd hazard a guess BCM realized this from your verbose email question, and gave you a quick simple answer in hopes of losing you as a customer...

< CoC Violation removed, user warned and given a 24 hour time out to re-read the CoC - F >

Quizcat et al, sorry to get off topic but in regards to what you said about polishing trigger components, I always wondered what affect polishing the trigger pins and pins holes would have. Not enough interest to do it myself, but I did always wonder about this.

Yes, well, I've never polished the pins or holes.  The pins are probably centerless ground to a tight tolerance, and the holes are relatively tight tolerances, so I wouldn't feel comfortable messing with either of them.

Topic Moved

Well, I left that up to LWRC, as they made the 5.45 x 39mm upper.  I assume they realize that 5.45 x 39mm ammo is virtually limited to military surplus ammo.  But, that's a good point.  I'll have to check it out.

Comon' my question to BCM was one short paragraph long...I don't consider that verbose.

Well, all nine companies don't make the same generic product, and some of them utilize mechanisms that are unique, and totally unrelated to their competitors.  So, there really is no universal answer because it has to do with their specific products.

Precisely...good point!

Well, I left that up to LWRC, as they made the 5.45 x 39mm upper. I assume they realize that 5.45 x 39mm ammo is virtually limited to military surplus ammo. But, that's a good point. I'll have to check it out.

Yes, well, I've never polished the pins or holes. The pins are probably centerless ground to a tight tolerance, and the holes are relatively tight tolerances, so I wouldn't feel comfortable messing with either of them.

Well, I left that up to LWRC, as they made the 5.45 x 39mm upper. I assume they realize that 5.45 x 39mm ammo is virtually limited to military surplus ammo. But, that's a good point. I'll have to check it out.

Precisely...good point!

Well, all nine companies don't make the same generic product, and some of them utilize mechanisms that are unique, and totally unrelated to their competitors. So, there really is no universal answer to my question because it's product specific.

It has everthing to do with 5.45 x 39mm, that's the point.  You don't typically get light strikes from most other milspec calibers.  And, besides, I can't make a one paragraph comment in response to another posters commentary or question unless it's related to 5.45 x 39mm?  I'm having a really hard time seeing the logic in some of these comments, comments which seem to be construed to introduce conflict rather than discussion.  

Yes, familiar with 5.45 and the associated issues.  But, you're missing the bigger point, BCM doesn't make anything for 5.45.  Their product line (with the exception of their 300 Blackout stuff) is strictly oriented to the "gotta have mil-spec" 5.56 crowd.  So, posting details about their trigger group made for a different application than what you want is superfluous.  And therein lies the disconnect.  BCM just isn't in the game of selling stuff for other caliber applications, and doesn't market their product for that whether it be in advertising or direct communications with a consumer like yourself.  The response you got arguably reflected that, though it may not have directly addressed your question.

I can understand what you're saying, that they're marketing to a particular consumer.  But, it isn't my responsibility to know about their product, it is their responsibility to answer questions of the consumer..  And, you're wrong, BCM makes triggers for the AR platform, used in lowers that are not caliber specific.  ATF does not classify the "caliber" of an AR lower, and all of the them are marked "multi-caliber" for that very reason.  Besides, their hammers and triggers will work in a 5.45 x 39mm AR platform depending on the hammer tension, which is a function of the spring, which is not something they publish without asking.

Ok, I'm done...thanks to all that responded with thoughtful and courteous comments.  Some of you made me realize that perhaps I wasn't interpreting BCMs response correctly, and I really can appreciate that.  But, some of you also stated that you couldn't understand why they made the followup comment about primers being irrelevant.  And, that was exactly my own reaction when I read their response.

What military specification describes a trigger like the one BCM is selling?

^^^^^  5.56 NATO uses hard primers.

Standard AR15 hammer spring weight is pretty heavy for a trigger.