Sharps .25-45 cartridge? (.25-.223???)

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Sharps .25-45 cartridge? (.25-.223???)

Posted: 1/6/2011 3:39:37 PM EDT

Over in new products section, to be officially unveiled at SHOT, looks a lot like a .25-.223 to me...

Posted: 1/6/2011 3:53:49 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Over in new products section, to be officially unveiled at SHOT, looks a lot like a .25-.223 to me...

Me too, says its uses std. 5.56 bolt and mags...Interesting,says also that it matches 30-30 (150-170gr) power levels.

Posted: 1/6/2011 4:39:38 PM EDT

[#2]

Do you have a link to this?

Posted: 1/6/2011 5:26:38 PM EDT

[#3]

Hmmm , Federal Cartridge . The neck looks longer on their FB page.

Posted: 1/6/2011 5:36:33 PM EDT

[#4]

30/30 = 1900 ft/lbs.

That is a 100 grain bullet at about 2900 fps.

Posted: 1/6/2011 6:09:09 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Over in new products section, to be officially unveiled at SHOT, looks a lot like a .25-.223 to me...

Me too, says its uses std. 5.56 bolt and mags...Interesting,says also that it matches 30-30 (150-170gr) power levels.

I was thinking hype at first , but what about at longer ranges ?

Posted: 1/6/2011 6:30:33 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Do you have a link to this?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=522400

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=267891&id=164653802115

None of the loads for .25-.222 Copperhead that I simulated in a 20" barrel at 55000 would go over the 1300 fpe level. And as was mentioned above, 30-30 is 1800-2000 fpe with the 150-170 gr bullets. So unless they are talking about at distance, I do not understand the comparison.

Posted: 1/6/2011 6:46:34 PM EDT

[#7]

Marty,

Thanks for the link.

Very interesting. It looks like they simply necked the 223REM up to 25. In fact, I am almost sure of it because the state:

"-Fits in Standard 556 magazine (cants slightly due to wider neck, but feeds)"

It seems that the designer really did not think it out very well. All they had to do was trim the case about 0.06" and they would have fixed the neck "cant"

320pf

Posted: 1/6/2011 6:47:57 PM EDT

[#8]

It can't be a true x45 , 320's was already pushing the length envelope at 43mm. Did they push the shoulder back ?

ETA - I'm convinced they bumped the shoulder back and trimmed it some after comparing the cases. I'm also convinced that they are comparing against the 30-30 at longer ranges to promote it.

Posted: 1/6/2011 7:09:15 PM EDT

[#9]

If you compare a 150 0.308 bullet at about 2180 fps has about 1580 ft-lbs of energy. This is about the velocity that you can get from a 20 inch barreled 30-30. I know some 150 gr 30-30 loads will go a bit faster. A 170 gr 30-30 will go 2000-2100 fps, which also has about 1530 ft-lbs of energy.

In the 25-223AR, I am able to push a 100 gr bullet to about 2580-2600 fps (from a 16-inch barrel), which has about 1500 ft-lbs of energy. (Note: with some of the "newer" designer powders like LEVERevolution, you might be able to get a bit more velocity.

So I guess they are pretty close, out past about 100 yrds, the higher B.C. 25 cal bullet has it all over the 30-30 flat nose bullet. The Hornaday LEVERevolution FlexTip 30 cal bullets are a different story.

Bottom line, the 25-223AR is a 30-30 class cartridge with better down range ballistics.

320pf

Posted: 1/6/2011 7:18:35 PM EDT

[#10]

You know , they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If they do this right I may have to cancel my plans for a 6x45 bbl.

Posted: 1/6/2011 7:31:01 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
It can't be a true x45 , 320's was already pushing the length envelope at 43mm. Did they push the shoulder back ?

ETA - I'm convinced they bumped the shoulder back and trimmed it some after comparing the cases. I'm also convinced that they are comparing against the 30-30 at longer ranges to promote it.

If they did push the shoulder back, and trimmed the case, it would be more like Kurt's 25x40mm and they would not have the "cant" problem in the magazine.

As I already mentioned, if they had trimmed the case to 1.70 (43 mm) that would also fix the "cant" problem.

320pf

Posted: 1/6/2011 7:40:08 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It can't be a true x45 , 320's was already pushing the length envelope at 43mm. Did they push the shoulder back ?

ETA - I'm convinced they bumped the shoulder back and trimmed it some after comparing the cases. I'm also convinced that they are comparing against the 30-30 at longer ranges to promote it.

If they did push the shoulder back, and trimmed the case, it would be more like Kurt's 25x40mm and they would not have the "cant" problem in the magazine.

As I already mentioned, if they had trimmed the case to 1.70 (43 mm) that would also fix the "cant" problem.

320pf

They didn't say the cant was a "problem". In fact , they said they feed fine. The neck and shoulder look larger than your variant which leads me to believe they bumped the shoulder back , maybe more like a 17 rem than a 222 rem .

ETA - after eyeballing it with a 5.56 and 6.8x41 , you are probably correct . Not to mention you actually have a .25-.223.

ETA- darn , it's close though. Could it be 6.3x43 with .17 rem shoulder ?

Posted: 1/6/2011 8:31:48 PM EDT

[#13]

You are right, "problem" is my term. When I was working on the 25-223AR, I had a bit of experience with the 300-221 Fireball and was made aware of the "trick" of seating the 30-cal bullet deep enough so that the first rib of the mag contacted the bullet ogive where the radius was about 0.25". This is about the outside diameter of the neck on a standard 5.56/223REM case. This greatly improved the feeding and reliability of the 300-221 Fireball.

So my first mock-up cases were too fat and the cases tended to "cant" in the mag. I consider this a problem that might cause feeding issues. So in one of several conversations I had with 7.63x40mm (Kurt), about his 25x40mm wildcat, he turned me on to the idea to trimming the case a bit to get rid of the case cant issue. Trimming the case also set the end of the case back enough so the the case did not ride up too far on the bullet ogive.

I would like to see the Sharps 25x45 case, but from the photos it looks like they simply necked up the 223REM to 25 cal. But any way, I am glad to see a commercial source for dies and brass. It will only help the development of acceptance of the 25-223AR.

It would be nice though for these company's to at lease say that their "new" cartridge was based on xxx popular wildcat. The other case that comes to mind are the AAC 300 Blackout (a.k.a 300 whisper or 300-221 Fireball.

320pf

Posted: 1/6/2011 8:59:50 PM EDT

[#14]

I've been sold on the idea of .25 caliber wildcats for a while now, and glad to see them getting traction. Chinscratching over why, as it appears, they didn't trim the case length a bit to alleviate the magazine rib situation.

Posted: 1/6/2011 9:03:43 PM EDT

[#15]

Could go back to Kurt's suggestion and have Magpul do a run of ribless P-mags.

Posted: 1/6/2011 9:50:09 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Could go back to Kurt's suggestion and have Magpul do a run of ribless P-mags.

If you have to buy new mags for it, might as well go with a bigger cartridge case.

Posted: 1/7/2011 2:11:10 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Could go back to Kurt's suggestion and have Magpul do a run of ribless P-mags.

If you have to buy new mags for it, might as well go with a bigger cartridge case.

Actually, a file would fix it pretty quick.

Posted: 1/7/2011 5:01:59 AM EDT

[#18]

Way to go SHARPS

Posted: 1/7/2011 6:49:39 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Could go back to Kurt's suggestion and have Magpul do a run of ribless P-mags.

That would be great if Magpul would come-out w/ a ribbless P-Mag...would save a lot of time w/ the extra trimming on all the lovely 223 wildcats out there that are wider than 6mm...
maybe one day. Until then get your Craftsmen double cut mill file out...

Posted: 1/7/2011 8:17:14 PM EDT

[#20]

I'm browsing along and see this and think of a "Sharps" in Black Powder with those cartridges that are the size of some guy's fingers and start thinking WTF! How in the heck are they going to fit those in a mag. Then I go back and read the whole article. Seems interesting

Posted: 1/8/2011 1:08:08 PM EDT

[#21]

is there also going to be a 50/70 AR variant?

Posted: 1/8/2011 2:16:57 PM EDT

[#22]

It's going to look weird with a little nub of a bullet sticking out. I guess it's good that they didn't take a 204 ruger and neck it up to .25 and stick the bullets in backwards.

Posted: 1/8/2011 4:56:06 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Marty,

Thanks for the link.

Very interesting. It looks like they simply necked the 223REM up to 25. In fact, I am almost sure of it because the state:

"-Fits in Standard 556 magazine (cants slightly due to wider neck, but feeds)"

It seems that the designer really did not think it out very well. All they had to do was trim the case about 0.06" and they would have fixed the neck "cant"
320pf

If the cartridge is over 41mm it puts the casemouth dead center of the rib....throwing stones or chaff at the designer is not gonna change the neck cant in a 42mm to 45mm case.

If Federal is involved it was built to satisfy the larger wood and blue steel market, and by chance fits in a AR mag. My guess it has plenty of freebore so the bolt guys will be able to load longer than the AR guys.

Posted: 2/19/2011 12:48:28 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
It can't be a true x45 , 320's was already pushing the length envelope at 43mm. Did they push the shoulder back ?

ETA - I'm convinced they bumped the shoulder back and trimmed it some after comparing the cases. I'm also convinced that they are comparing against the 30-30 at longer ranges to promote it.

Good idea. I like.

Posted: 2/19/2011 12:50:15 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
is there also going to be a 50/70 AR variant?

You just made me foo myself. 25 cal... 50 cal....

Posted: 2/19/2011 12:52:39 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Marty,

Thanks for the link.

Very interesting. It looks like they simply necked the 223REM up to 25. In fact, I am almost sure of it because the state:

"-Fits in Standard 556 magazine (cants slightly due to wider neck, but feeds)"

It seems that the designer really did not think it out very well. All they had to do was trim the case about 0.06" and they would have fixed the neck "cant"
320pf

If the cartridge is over 41mm it puts the casemouth dead center of the rib....throwing stones or chaff at the designer is not gonna change the neck cant in a 42mm to 45mm case.

[url=http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5020/sttammanyparishproposal.jpg]http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5020/sttammanyparishpr

If Federal is involved it was built to satisfy the larger wood and blue steel market, and by chance fits in a AR mag. My guess it has plenty of freebore so the bolt guys will be able to load longer than the AR guys.

You and I are really on the same page here. The cartridge will evolve shortly if Federal is involved.

Posted: 2/19/2011 1:00:37 PM EDT

[#27]

Having shot over 5000 rounds of 25-06, reading much of Rick Jamisons scratch on 25 caliber and many a zipped Prong horn, pig, Javelina, crow and p-dogs going south with my hand loads I can attest to the great ballistics of the Nosler 100gr BT and the Winchester 117gr PP. I cant wait till Black hills loads a 85 or 90gr TSX for it. Maybe a 85 and a 100gr that way!! oh wait back on topic, sorry.

A 25 cal upper that can work with my current stuff is almost a dream.. As the famous Lays commercial states, No you cant have mine get your own !!

Posted: 2/19/2011 2:58:58 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Marty,

Thanks for the link.

Very interesting. It looks like they simply necked the 223REM up to 25. In fact, I am almost sure of it because the state:

"-Fits in Standard 556 magazine (cants slightly due to wider neck, but feeds)"

It seems that the designer really did not think it out very well. All they had to do was trim the case about 0.06" and they would have fixed the neck "cant"
320pf

If the cartridge is over 41mm it puts the casemouth dead center of the rib....throwing stones or chaff at the designer is not gonna change the neck cant in a 42mm to 45mm case.

[url=http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5020/sttammanyparishproposal.jpg]http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5020/sttammanyparishpr

If Federal is involved it was built to satisfy the larger wood and blue steel market, and by chance fits in a AR mag. My guess it has plenty of freebore so the bolt guys will be able to load longer than the AR guys.

You and I are really on the same page here. The cartridge will evolve shortly if Federal is involved.

Sharps says that they have full SAAMI approval and are just working the final details out with Federal.

Posted: 2/20/2011 6:16:51 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Marty,

Thanks for the link.

Very interesting. It looks like they simply necked the 223REM up to 25. In fact, I am almost sure of it because the state:

"-Fits in Standard 556 magazine (cants slightly due to wider neck, but feeds)"

It seems that the designer really did not think it out very well. All they had to do was trim the case about 0.06" and they would have fixed the neck "cant"
320pf

If the cartridge is over 41mm it puts the casemouth dead center of the rib....throwing stones or chaff at the designer is not gonna change the neck cant in a 42mm to 45mm case.

[url=http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5020/sttammanyparishproposal.jpg]http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5020/sttammanyparishpr

If Federal is involved it was built to satisfy the larger wood and blue steel market, and by chance fits in a AR mag. My guess it has plenty of freebore so the bolt guys will be able to load longer than the AR guys.

You and I are really on the same page here. The cartridge will evolve shortly if Federal is involved.

Sharps says that they have full SAAMI approval and are just working the final details out with Federal.

With what trim length? I'm still not convinced on the 45mm case.

Posted: 2/20/2011 5:14:16 PM EDT

[#30]

I didn't ask them trim length. Just when ammo and dies would be out. Reply was they had full saami approval on 27 January and were working final load details with federal.