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Posted: 7/28/2009 4:51:14 PM EDT
My Ronald Williams built 7.62x25mm AR upper, mag adapter and mags showed up!
Upper looks great, nicely built. The mag block is uber simple, yet works just dandy with the mags Ron modified for me. I unpacked it, ran outside and put 5 rounds of Wolf 85 grain HPs on steel. HPs fed smooth and it ran fine. Zero recoil and accuracy was very good. Rounds cloverleafed the paint off the LaRue at 25 yards. So far I am very impressed!! Update OK here's a pic as requested 
So far I have tried Romanian and Yugoslav surplus and Wolf 85 grain JHPs and it all runs fine. Accuracy is quite acceptable and hitting an 8 inch steel plate offhand at 100 yards is a snap. Velocity is over 1825 fps with the Romanian surplus. I let a friend shoot it today and he loved it. I'm just finishing up a feature article for Shotgun News on it now. It will be out in the 9/20 issue. ETA, I had an old box of .223 Timbs kicking around the shop. This is a 55 grain .224 FMJ loaded via sabot into a 7.62x25mm case. This was an early try and this particular load would not function in a Yugoslav Tokarev. But I stuffed it in the AR and ran it across the chrono anyways. While it did not cycle it did clock a whopping 2,737 fps!!! This is a neat old cartridge.....and this upper is a lot of fun. |
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Posted: 7/28/2009 5:08:25 PM EDT
[#1]
+1 for Ron.
I have a .300/.221 he did for me that I STILL haven't fired 
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Posted: 7/29/2009 12:00:35 AM EDT
[#2]
I've been thinking a 7.62 x 25 AR top end would be a great deal considering the cost of ammo. Got any contact info for Ronald Williams?
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Posted: 7/29/2009 3:28:44 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
I've been thinking a 7.62 x 25 AR top end would be a great deal considering the cost of ammo. Got any contact info for Ronald Williams? He hangs out in the AR Variants forum. His screen name is "ronaldmwilliams". 
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Posted: 7/29/2009 3:31:36 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 7/29/2009 5:24:30 AM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 7/29/2009 5:44:42 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 7/29/2009 9:28:20 AM EDT
[#7]
I always thought it would be cool to have an AK in 7.62x25mm set up like a Bizon.....
BUT I have to say, this is MUCH cooler! It's very smooth shooting, feeding is extremely smooth and ejection is vigorous. Out of 5 modified mags 3 drop free from my lower, while two just require a tug as they are. A lil sanding should cure those two. They all lock solidly in place. His mag block, what a genius......its so simple........ Pappa Shpagin once said, "To make something complicated is very simple, to make something simple is very complicated." I think Pappa Shpagin would shed tears of pride if he saw William's mag adapter..... I have a feeling this upper is going to be extremely fun, and a great small game gun. I have a blowback operated semi-auto PPSh-41 and I much prefer the locked breach gas operated system Williams is using. Cases don't come out all bulged..... Yeah, initial impressions are extremely positive. Also, Ron was great to deal with. Quick to answer emails keeping in mind he has a day job. Seemed like a really nice guy, let me know when to expect my upper to be done and contacted me before shipping. I was in no rush, but it arrived quicker than I thought it would. I have one of those Yugo M57 Tokarevs to go with it. Fun Fun Fun! Look for a feature article in Shotgun News and Tacticalgunfan.com once I've had the chance to really spend some time with it and put some rounds through it. |
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Posted: 7/29/2009 10:25:11 AM EDT
[#8]
nice!!!! keep us posted Dave.
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Posted: 7/29/2009 5:24:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Told ya you would like it. Now try it with some hand loaded subsonics and you will get really scared of the potential... the utter absence of recoil makes this set up comparable to the MP5 in terms of putting rounds on target and follow up shots. Gas operated pistol calibers - in my opinion - have been ignored or neglected by the larger players, mistakenly thinking there is no market or application. But if you can give the MP5 a true competitor and can do with a platform that many agencies already have in their arsenals, you stand to get a LOT of folks sending you business.
I hope the article does well for Ron, good things happen to good people. |
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Posted: 7/30/2009 11:13:29 AM EDT
[#10]
Is there a website with info on this set up? Sounds way cool. It could be a very handy tool when something goes bump in the night.
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Posted: 7/30/2009 11:45:51 AM EDT
[#11]
Hey Marty or anyone else
Is this the round you can load 308 bullets in for subsonics? Is that what you are talking about? |
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Posted: 7/30/2009 2:48:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Hey Marty or anyone else Is this the round you can load 308 bullets in for subsonics? Is that what you are talking about? Roger that 
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Posted: 7/30/2009 3:29:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
I always thought it would be cool to have an AK in 7.62x25mm set up like a Bizon..... BUT I have to say, this is MUCH cooler! It's very smooth shooting, feeding is extremely smooth and ejection is vigorous. Out of 5 modified mags 3 drop free from my lower, while two just require a tug as they are. A lil sanding should cure those two. They all lock solidly in place. His mag block, what a genius......its so simple........ Pappa Shpagin once said, "To make something complicated is very simple, to make something simple is very complicated." I think Pappa Shpagin would shed tears of pride if he saw William's mag adapter..... I have a feeling this upper is going to be extremely fun, and a great small game gun. I have a blowback operated semi-auto PPSh-41 and I much prefer the locked breach gas operated system Williams is using. Cases don't come out all bulged..... Yeah, initial impressions are extremely positive. Also, Ron was great to deal with. Quick to answer emails keeping in mind he has a day job. Seemed like a really nice guy, let me know when to expect my upper to be done and contacted me before shipping. I was in no rush, but it arrived quicker than I thought it would. I have one of those Yugo M57 Tokarevs to go with it. Fun Fun Fun! Look for a feature article in Shotgun News and Tacticalgunfan.com once I've had the chance to really spend some time with it and put some rounds through it. Just curious, what did it run you? |
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Posted: 7/30/2009 3:40:42 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hey Marty or anyone else Is this the round you can load 308 bullets in for subsonics? Is that what you are talking about? Roger that Since you seem to be the man to talk to What would be the advantage of the Tok compared to a 300 whisper other than cost 
Or is cost the big one |
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Posted: 7/30/2009 4:46:43 PM EDT
[#15]
two completely different cartridges.........
my interest in it was cheap surplus ammo for fun My interest wasn't in subsonic loads as I'll probably never put a sound suppressor on it. But I know Marty has done quite a bit in that regard |
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Posted: 7/30/2009 6:20:23 PM EDT
[#16]
Dave, we need to see some pics of this animal!!
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Posted: 7/30/2009 6:39:42 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hey Marty or anyone else Is this the round you can load 308 bullets in for subsonics? Is that what you are talking about? Roger that Since you seem to be the man to talk to What would be the advantage of the Tok compared to a 300 whisper other than cost
Or is cost the big one Dual role - versatility. My chest rig has one side with AR 545 mags with subsonic loads - the small powder volume allows for small suppressor, plus low pressure, therefore built like a pistol can - light. The other side is Pps mags with 32 rounds of FMJ goodness. I can do the work DNQ (dead nuts quiet) and if I need to, install the adapter and lay down lots of lead. But really, it is cheap and fun to shoot. |
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Posted: 7/30/2009 9:59:41 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Dave, we need to see some pics of this animal!! +1 pics or GTFO 
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Posted: 7/31/2009 4:49:30 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hey Marty or anyone else Is this the round you can load 308 bullets in for subsonics? Is that what you are talking about? Roger that Since you seem to be the man to talk to What would be the advantage of the Tok compared to a 300 whisper other than cost
Or is cost the big one To be honest, I prefer the 300W for subsonic work. The Tok is for surplus. I dont care for the short neck on the tok. I doubt the cartridge will handle anything above 150-180g. Marty will know more in this area. |
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Posted: 7/31/2009 4:54:04 AM EDT
[#20]
let's see this thing
sounds great! |
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Posted: 7/31/2009 10:35:55 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dave, we need to see some pics of this animal!! +1 pics or GTFO You guys deserve a look at this lil beastie! I'll get a pic up tonight!! |
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Posted: 7/31/2009 10:40:56 AM EDT
[#22]
What kind of velocities does the 7.62x25 achieve in say a 14.5" barrel?
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Posted: 7/31/2009 4:08:22 PM EDT
[#23]
depending upon the load I was getting around 1,800 fps for a 10 inch barrel using European surplus
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Posted: 8/1/2009 5:15:16 AM EDT
[#24]
That sounds very interesting!
Is there any discussion thread or board where one could find out more about this 7.62x25 config ar15 upper? I was considering getting a .22 upper for my SBR, but this one might be a nice alternative. I'm wondering about mag options... as well as details about the conversion, mag block, etc... tia! -3D |
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Posted: 8/1/2009 6:26:11 PM EDT
[#25]
How do I go about getting one of these 7.62x25 uppers? (7.5" threaded15mmX1).
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Posted: 8/1/2009 6:40:59 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hey Marty or anyone else Is this the round you can load 308 bullets in for subsonics? Is that what you are talking about? Roger that Since you seem to be the man to talk to What would be the advantage of the Tok compared to a 300 whisper other than cost
Or is cost the big one To be honest, I prefer the 300W for subsonic work. The Tok is for surplus. I dont care for the short neck on the tok. I doubt the cartridge will handle anything above 150-180g. Marty will know more in this area. I have shot up to 220 gr subsonic.... which is why I feel this round can rival the Whisper ONLY IN THAT ASPECT. On other aspects, the Whisper (or Kurt's 7.62x40) wins hand down. This group was shot at 100 yards with a 10.5" barrel, the EOTech shown and the 125 NBT loads shown... 
And you can shoot short loaded 90 JHP in other things as well
Or other platforms 
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Posted: 8/3/2009 9:41:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Make no mistake. This is a tag...
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Posted: 8/3/2009 6:08:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hey Marty or anyone else Is this the round you can load 308 bullets in for subsonics? Is that what you are talking about? Roger that Since you seem to be the man to talk to What would be the advantage of the Tok compared to a 300 whisper other than cost
Or is cost the big one To be honest, I prefer the 300W for subsonic work. The Tok is for surplus. I dont care for the short neck on the tok. I doubt the cartridge will handle anything above 150-180g. Marty will know more in this area. I have shot up to 220 gr subsonic.... which is why I feel this round can rival the Whisper ONLY IN THAT ASPECT. On other aspects, the Whisper (or Kurt's 7.62x40) wins hand down. This group was shot at 100 yards with a 10.5" barrel, the EOTech shown and the 125 NBT loads shown... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v617/martytw/762x25group.jpg And you can shoot short loaded 90 JHP in other things as well
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v617/martytw/IMG_0289.jpg Or other platforms http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v617/martytw/Mvc-397s.jpg Marty, If you don't mind - What is the max length you would seat the 220g bullets at? Thx |
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Posted: 8/3/2009 8:27:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Marty, If you don't mind - What is the max length you would seat the 220g bullets at? Thx According to my notes I was loading 200 Sierra SPBT at 1.930 180 SMK at 1.850 210 SMK at 1.850 Not finding the 220 info, but likely between 1.850 and 1.930, I use a chamber gage to check what the longest load feasible might be. |
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Posted: 8/4/2009 2:36:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Dual role - versatility. My chest rig has one side with AR 545 mags with subsonic loads - the small powder volume allows for small suppressor, plus low pressure, therefore built like a pistol can - light. The other side is Pps mags with 32 rounds of FMJ goodness. I can do the work DNQ (dead nuts quiet) and if I need to, install the adapter and lay down lots of lead.
But really, it is cheap and fun to shoot. What loading data do you use for 545 subsonic? How well do they work? I have 2 5.45X39 uppers (one gas, one piston, both 11") |
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Posted: 8/4/2009 5:18:37 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Dual role - versatility. My chest rig has one side with AR 545 mags with subsonic loads - the small powder volume allows for small suppressor, plus low pressure, therefore built like a pistol can - light. The other side is Pps mags with 32 rounds of FMJ goodness. I can do the work DNQ (dead nuts quiet) and if I need to, install the adapter and lay down lots of lead.
But really, it is cheap and fun to shoot. What loading data do you use for 545 subsonic? How well do they work? I have 2 5.45X39 uppers (one gas, one piston, both 11") I believe he meant that due to the very long overall length of the 7.62x25mm subsonic loads he is using 5.45x39mm mags he wasn't speaking of 5.45x39mm subsonic loads |
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Posted: 8/4/2009 7:45:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Looking forward to more in depth range review.
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Posted: 8/5/2009 5:41:34 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Dave, we need to see some pics of this animal!! +1 pics or GTFO You guys deserve a look at this lil beastie! I'll get a pic up tonight!! Still patiently waiting.. |
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Posted: 8/5/2009 5:53:47 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dual role - versatility. My chest rig has one side with AR 545 mags with subsonic loads - the small powder volume allows for small suppressor, plus low pressure, therefore built like a pistol can - light. The other side is Pps mags with 32 rounds of FMJ goodness. I can do the work DNQ (dead nuts quiet) and if I need to, install the adapter and lay down lots of lead.
But really, it is cheap and fun to shoot. What loading data do you use for 545 subsonic? How well do they work? I have 2 5.45X39 uppers (one gas, one piston, both 11") I believe he meant that due to the very long overall length of the 7.62x25mm subsonic loads he is using 5.45x39mm mags he wasn't speaking of 5.45x39mm subsonic loads Better yet! I expect a barrel and block from Ron in a week or so and am very interested in the subsonic loading data for the 7.62Tok. Where can I get that? Do the 5.45 mags feed well. I assume they are CProducts? (I have a dozen of them) Any mods required? |
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Posted: 8/5/2009 11:43:58 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Marty, If you don't mind - What is the max length you would seat the 220g bullets at? Thx According to my notes I was loading 200 Sierra SPBT at 1.930 180 SMK at 1.850 210 SMK at 1.850 Not finding the 220 info, but likely between 1.850 and 1.930, I use a chamber gage to check what the longest load feasible might be. Thank you very much, sir |
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Posted: 8/5/2009 6:36:42 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dual role - versatility. My chest rig has one side with AR 545 mags with subsonic loads - the small powder volume allows for small suppressor, plus low pressure, therefore built like a pistol can - light. The other side is Pps mags with 32 rounds of FMJ goodness. I can do the work DNQ (dead nuts quiet) and if I need to, install the adapter and lay down lots of lead.
But really, it is cheap and fun to shoot. What loading data do you use for 545 subsonic? How well do they work? I have 2 5.45X39 uppers (one gas, one piston, both 11") I believe he meant that due to the very long overall length of the 7.62x25mm subsonic loads he is using 5.45x39mm mags he wasn't speaking of 5.45x39mm subsonic loads Better yet! I expect a barrel and block from Ron in a week or so and am very interested in the subsonic loading data for the 7.62Tok. Where can I get that? Do the 5.45 mags feed well. I assume they are CProducts? (I have a dozen of them) Any mods required? Indeed, I was NOT speaking of the 5.45 and why anyone would load that subsonic is beyond me I use un-modified CProducts 5.45 AR15 magazines with the longer loads. Why? The 7.62x25 Tok case (related to the 9x19 Luger) is 0.398" diameter. They will NOT stack properly in standard .223 magazines. But since the 5.45x39 has pretty much the same diameter those magazines work like a champ. And the longer loaded length (close to 2") requires the use of full size magazines as opposed to the Pps32 or CZ24/26 magazines. To develop subsonic loads, I would highly recommend QuickLoad from www.neconos.com. It is well worth the investment, but you have to know one or two tricks to get it to work well with subsonic loads. |
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Posted: 8/6/2009 4:24:47 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dual role - versatility. My chest rig has one side with AR 545 mags with subsonic loads - the small powder volume allows for small suppressor, plus low pressure, therefore built like a pistol can - light. The other side is Pps mags with 32 rounds of FMJ goodness. I can do the work DNQ (dead nuts quiet) and if I need to, install the adapter and lay down lots of lead.
But really, it is cheap and fun to shoot. What loading data do you use for 545 subsonic? How well do they work? I have 2 5.45X39 uppers (one gas, one piston, both 11") I believe he meant that due to the very long overall length of the 7.62x25mm subsonic loads he is using 5.45x39mm mags he wasn't speaking of 5.45x39mm subsonic loads Better yet! I expect a barrel and block from Ron in a week or so and am very interested in the subsonic loading data for the 7.62Tok. Where can I get that? Do the 5.45 mags feed well. I assume they are CProducts? (I have a dozen of them) Any mods required? Indeed, I was NOT speaking of the 5.45 and why anyone would load that subsonic is beyond me I use un-modified CProducts 5.45 AR15 magazines with the longer loads. Why? The 7.62x25 Tok case (related to the 9x19 Luger) is 0.398" diameter. They will NOT stack properly in standard .223 magazines. But since the 5.45x39 has pretty much the same diameter those magazines work like a champ. And the longer loaded length (close to 2") requires the use of full size magazines as opposed to the Pps32 or CZ24/26 magazines. To develop subsonic loads, I would highly recommend QuickLoad from www.neconos.com. It is well worth the investment, but you have to know one or two tricks to get it to work well with subsonic loads. Would you recommend Quickload and Quickdesign? |
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Posted: 8/7/2009 5:59:40 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Told ya you would like it. Now try it with some hand loaded subsonics and you will get really scared of the potential... the utter absence of recoil makes this set up comparable to the MP5 in terms of putting rounds on target and follow up shots. Gas operated pistol calibers - in my opinion - have been ignored or neglected by the larger players, mistakenly thinking there is no market or application. But if you can give the MP5 a true competitor and can do with a platform that many agencies already have in their arsenals, you stand to get a LOT of folks sending you business. I hope the article does well for Ron, good things happen to good people. Yep, I knew he was up to no good when I saw his name come up in the order que for 20 extractors, spings, and pins, and gas rings... Piss on Overly German Overly Complicated roller transmission delays...Gimme a lo-mass DI carrier with enough buffer to settle the cyclic rate and put the controls in the same place as the good ol'sixteen. Remember, the A-bomb probably wouldn't have been called the A-bomb unless it was built by A-mericans. Brett |
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Posted: 8/7/2009 6:27:35 AM EDT
[#39]
To develop subsonic loads, I would highly recommend QuickLoad from www.neconos.com. It is well worth the investment, but you have to know one or two tricks to get it to work well with subsonic loads. Would you recommend Quickload and Quickdesign? [/quote] Do those tricks include: primer hole reaming and wadding? |
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Posted: 8/7/2009 6:47:44 AM EDT
[#40]
Does ronald williams have a website. I have been loking for him. I heard he is the go to guy for .40 upper
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Posted: 8/7/2009 8:01:18 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Does ronald williams have a website. I have been loking for him. I heard he is the go to guy for .40 upper Right here 
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Posted: 8/7/2009 7:35:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
To develop subsonic loads, I would highly recommend QuickLoad from www.neconos.com. It is well worth the investment, but you have to know one or two tricks to get it to work well with subsonic loads. Would you recommend Quickload and Quickdesign? Do those tricks include: primer hole reaming and wadding?[/quote] Just QuickLoad for load development, QuickDesign is for designing new cartridges and not needed for coming up with subsonic loads The case is so small, wadding is not needed - there is barely enough room for powder. Considering my powder charges are <10 grains typically. The trick refer to certain settings in QuickLoad that can help find loads that will work. There are no modifications to the cases, no wadding, no other things used in cases not inherently suited for this type of load. |
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Posted: 8/17/2009 5:37:07 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Does ronald williams have a website. I have been loking for him. I heard he is the go to guy for .40 upper Right here
ordered one from Mr Williams, i expect to thrash it! |
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Posted: 8/21/2009 8:31:20 PM EDT
[#44]
My Ron Williams barrel, gas block, gas tube, modified mag and drop in mag block arrived today.
I immediately gathered all my reserved parts and assembled them into an upper assy. I found right away that a Yankee Hill barrel nut is too long to fit with the gas tube. I had to scrounge and steal an Olympic pistol forend off a 9mm upper I had in the safe. After pinning it to an SBR'd lower I had, I immediately went to my local range and put a half a mag thru the 8" barrel and my Yankee hill QD 7.62 can for test. Flawless operation with very little recoil. A liitle louder report than expected but with pretty hot Romanian surplus ammo. Now I am off to order a Daniels Defence 7" lite rail free float rail system for it and modify some more mags. My new Hornady Lock N Load progressive press is still in the box awaiting sub-sonic loadings for this tremendous combination. |
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Posted: 8/21/2009 8:35:50 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Does ronald williams have a website. I have been loking for him. I heard he is the go to guy for .40 upper Right here
I want a tok barrel and block as soon as you are willing to get one to me, how do I go about it? |
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Posted: 8/23/2009 7:30:08 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Does ronald williams have a website. I have been loking for him. I heard he is the go to guy for .40 upper Right here
I want a tok barrel and block as soon as you are willing to get one to me, how do I go about it? IM sent
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Posted: 8/23/2009 7:33:48 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
My Ron Williams barrel, gas block, gas tube, modified mag and drop in mag block arrived today. I immediately gathered all my reserved parts and assembled them into an upper assy. I found right away that a Yankee Hill barrel nut is too long to fit with the gas tube. I had to scrounge and steal an Olympic pistol forend off a 9mm upper I had in the safe. After pinning it to an SBR'd lower I had, I immediately went to my local range and put a half a mag thru the 8" barrel and my Yankee hill QD 7.62 can for test. Flawless operation with very little recoil. A liitle louder report than expected but with pretty hot Romanian surplus ammo. Now I am off to order a Daniels Defence 7" lite rail free float rail system for it and modify some more mags. My new Hornady Lock N Load progressive press is still in the box awaiting sub-sonic loadings for this tremendous combination. I have built these on the YHM rails. Tube may have been off a little. My romanian runs over 1600fps out of an 11" tube. The 8" brls are a little louder but they do run very well
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Posted: 9/2/2009 1:41:18 PM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 9/2/2009 5:55:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Got it the way I want it http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/dtwalkerfl/Tokarov/IMGP0203.jpg http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/dtwalkerfl/Tokarov/IMGP0204.jpg http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/dtwalkerfl/Tokarov/IMGP0207.jpg Me want, mind sharing how much for the setup? |
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Posted: 9/3/2009 4:35:22 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Got it the way I want it http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/dtwalkerfl/Tokarov/IMGP0203.jpg http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/dtwalkerfl/Tokarov/IMGP0204.jpg http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/dtwalkerfl/Tokarov/IMGP0207.jpg You gotta love it
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