Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Site Notices
Page / 11
Link Posted: 5/27/2006 2:56:42 PM EDT
[#1]
It'd be funny if SOCOM ditched the SCAR like yesterday's trash like the Army with the XM8.
Link Posted: 5/28/2006 2:51:32 AM EDT
[#2]

Quoted:
A weapon delivered in the price range of an AR...

Just my 0.02$.  I don't guarantee its worth 2 cents though  :)



I don't know where you got that idea.

I'd be shocked if you could get one for under two large.
Link Posted: 5/28/2006 3:00:15 AM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
I spoke with the regional FN rep recently, and he assured me that there will be civilian versions availalb.e  I think you'll be fairly happy at the prices, also.  Think Colt AR15 price area, or slightly better.   Hopefully I'll be shooting a post sample version by this spring.  



I was just going by this individual's posts as far as looking at a civie's cost.  Sounds reasonable to me...I've seen new systems like the XCR in the 1500-2K$ price range.  Also, you have the price of POFs system in that range also.

As I said, my comment may not be worth  0.02$...   :)

Link Posted: 5/28/2006 3:48:50 AM EDT
[#4]
Not all FN reps have all of the right info. Seeing how the FS2000 is being jacked up in price, I don't see any reason for them to sell the civilian SCAR at a cheap price, even if there will be a civilian SCAR. If the SCAR military/gov contracts pick up like a mofo (read: PROFITS $$$$$$$$$$$), it's not going to tempt them to start producing small production numbers of civilian SCARs for such a small market. If the SCAR were dropped by SOCOM (I'm just talking hypothetically), then you can definitely expect to see a civilian SCAR because FN needs to recoup some of its losses. Everyone's leaning away from the P90 and none of the large military/LE agencies in the  US have really picked uip on the F2000, which is why you're seeing the PS90 and FS2000 coming to the US market.
Link Posted: 5/28/2006 6:21:30 AM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
Hi Kemp.   Cool!  Can you do a couple in the "H" version?   Thanks



Sure. My Mk17 looks a bit botched because i had a hard time finding suitable source material.



Link Posted: 5/28/2006 12:22:18 PM EDT
[#6]
Kemp,  Thanks!  
Link Posted: 5/31/2006 1:53:37 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:
It'd be funny if SOCOM ditched the SCAR like yesterday's trash like the Army with the XM8.


Won't happen. No offense to the ARMY, but the whole OICW program was nothing short of being completely retarded. The idea that soldiers were going to carry around 30 pound guns that are the size of a car door was a big whiff. Add in HK being egotistically confident in an unproven design and you have a recipe for disaster.

We basically paid 30 million dollars so HK could find out the G36/XM8 was a piece of shit, and so the ARMY could realize that you can't build one gun to do every task a soldier needs to. FN paid for all of the development of the SCAR and had the ARMY given them 30 million dollars, they would probably have a rock solid rifle system that was ready to go.
Link Posted: 5/31/2006 2:08:07 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It'd be funny if SOCOM ditched the SCAR like yesterday's trash like the Army with the XM8.


Won't happen. No offense to the ARMY, but the whole OICW program was nothing short of being completely retarded. The idea that soldiers were going to carry around 30 pound guns that are the size of a car door was a big whiff. Add in HK being egotistically confident in an unproven design and you have a recipe for disaster.

We basically paid 30 million dollars so HK could find out the G36/XM8 was a piece of shit, and so the ARMY could realize that you can't build one gun to do every task a soldier needs to. FN paid for all of the development of the SCAR and had the ARMY given them 30 million dollars, they would probably have a rock solid rifle system that was ready to go.



It sounds like FN took a big financial risk in developing the SCAR... They probably made up for it with the PS90
Link Posted: 5/31/2006 2:45:05 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
It'd be funny if SOCOM ditched the SCAR like yesterday's trash like the Army with the XM8.


Won't happen. No offense to the ARMY, but the whole OICW program was nothing short of being completely retarded. The idea that soldiers were going to carry around 30 pound guns that are the size of a car door was a big whiff. Add in HK being egotistically confident in an unproven design and you have a recipe for disaster.

We basically paid 30 million dollars so HK could find out the G36/XM8 was a piece of shit, and so the ARMY could realize that you can't build one gun to do every task a soldier needs to. FN paid for all of the development of the SCAR and had the ARMY given them 30 million dollars, they would probably have a rock solid rifle system that was ready to go.



It sounds like FN took a big financial risk in developing the SCAR... They probably made up for it with the PS90


You never know, they might have. They got a decent chunk of change from the SCAR contract, but I'm sure that's nothing compared to what they have into the SCAR/ARM rifles over all.
Link Posted: 6/7/2006 10:45:02 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Thanks Vic
The stock no longer looks like a humpback whale, good deal.  With the 40mm launcher installed, it looks like it'll preclude the use of 20rd mags.  Only wish it was designed and made at home



Uh this is manufactured at home at FN Herstal's plant in SC.  all US munitions are required to be manufactured stateside, I believ, by law.



Some people just can't seem to read the thread at all.

From the FIRST PARAGRAPH.


SCAR program was unique in that it was developed with full input and participation from special operations forces of all four services. The SCAR will be manufactured in the US in FN Herstal's Columbia, South Carolina facility. In fact, most of the personnel involved in testing the SCAR prototypes were active duty special forces personnel.



WIZZO
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 2:46:41 AM EDT
[#11]
So, bottom line, when can I buy the civilian version and how much is it going to cost me?
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 3:34:03 AM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
Yet another flash-in-the-pan Wunder Rifle..........


I'll pass.  thanks.



Yup...

It will catch on outside SOCOM about as well as the HK Mk23 and the Stoner 63

Note that the next Army sniper weapon is an AR pattern rifle - the Knights SR-25...
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 6:50:03 AM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 6/9/2006 2:50:53 PM EDT
[#14]
TWL, assuming that even if SOCOM picks up SCAR that Big Green will stick with M16/M4, what do you think are the chances of a "smaller" organization, say, oh, the USMC, also going SCAR?

John
Link Posted: 6/9/2006 3:06:50 PM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:
...It will catch on outside SOCOM about as well as the HK Mk23 and the Stoner 63

Note that the next Army sniper weapon is an AR pattern rifle - the Knights SR-25...



A sniper system is a special-purpose piece, for which the AR does well. However, sustained fire has shown it has its limits, requiring more field maintenance to sustain functionality compared to indirect operating methods.  High temps reduce parts lifespan.

How well it will catch on is purely a matter of conjecture until reality bites.


Quoted:
...I'm as much in favor of having a variety of guns on the market , as anybody, and I like this SCAR rifle just fine.

However, in the overall scheme of things, regarding it "replacing" the M16/M4, I really can't see it.

Especially now that time has marched on since the original SCAR competition, and there are other rifles out there now, and upcoming, that squarely can challenge anything the SCAR can do, and maybe even do better. And some are M4-based.

The minute you finalize on a design, that is the minute you start losing ground to the newer developments that are moving forward.
It's just the way technology is.
Eventually, everybody gets "leap-frogged" in some way or other.



Of course, the same logic applies to all those other small arms.  I'll withhold judgement until it gets out & shows its mettle.  "New" vs. "old" is irrelevant.  Performance is what counts.  Hopefully, ths SCAR-ARM will have been (taxpayer) $$$ well-spent.
Link Posted: 6/9/2006 4:13:45 PM EDT
[#16]
SCAR Porn pdf.

Not sure if this is old, but I'd never seen it before. Enjoy.

ETA: It has to be pretty new as they have Tango Down products on them. (Tango Down just received a contract to supply VFG's and rail panel covers for the SCAR rifles.)
Link Posted: 6/9/2006 4:44:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Sweet!

I added that to my favorites.

Interesting that they wanted the SCAR-L to do between .5 and .7 MOA at 300m as shown on page 13 of the pdf.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 6/9/2006 5:02:39 PM EDT
[#18]
If the SCAR rifles shoot 1.5 inch groups at 300 yards, that would be amazing. Especially with both rifles weighing under 8 pounds in their match barreled forms.

Another thing I find amazing is that the SCAR-L requires no drain time for firing after having been under water, and the SCAR-H takes less than two seconds.
Link Posted: 6/9/2006 5:20:03 PM EDT
[#19]
Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter has lots of SCAR action (SCAR L and SCAR H), it's so advanced it won't run with my GeForce 5900 vid card.
Link Posted: 6/9/2006 9:11:08 PM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 6/9/2006 10:20:30 PM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:
However, in the overall scheme of things, regarding it "replacing" the M16/M4, I really can't see it.

Especially now that time has marched on since the original SCAR competition, and there are other rifles out there now, and upcoming, that squarely can challenge anything the SCAR can do, and maybe even do better. And some are M4-based.





just curious which rifles you would put on that list ?
Link Posted: 6/10/2006 4:14:05 AM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:

Some people just can't seem to read the thread at all.

From the FIRST PARAGRAPH.


SCAR program was unique in that it was developed with full input and participation from special operations forces of all four services. The SCAR will be manufactured in the US in FN Herstal's Columbia, South Carolina facility. In fact, most of the personnel involved in testing the SCAR prototypes were active duty special forces personnel.



WIZZO




But the report also says it went from box-to-wire in 10 months

The liklihood of developing a long-term winner that quickly - no matter whose input we get - is thinking optimistically.

Link Posted: 6/10/2006 5:11:23 AM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 6/10/2006 6:24:25 AM EDT
[#24]

Then there is the XCR, which was almost a SCAR entry until they forgot to include the blank-firing adapter and were disqualified on the technicality. I guess nobody really knows yet how that would have fared in the competition. It has a piston, and a folding stock, and some caliber conversion ability from what I've heard about it. So, that is here now.


Did that actually happen? If the XCR entry used a 22mm NATO adapter, why didn't someone just give them a $5 USGI BFA? DQ'ing the entry based on this tiny technicality is absurd. I am not even pro-XCR, but it just sounds kind of far fetched even for .GOV and .MIL procurement.
Link Posted: 6/10/2006 6:32:54 AM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 6/10/2006 7:49:05 AM EDT
[#26]

The EGLM program comprised not only an enhanced capability 40mm grenade launcher, but also a very sophisticated sighting system for the EGLM.  The net result was that we were given only two months to completely design not only the EGLM but also the sighting system.   (It should be noted that the EGLM program alone would take a couple years of design and development work and millions of dollars.)

In the mad rush during the last two months before delivery, we forgot to pack blank firing adapters (BFAs) with the rifles.  These were standard M16 BFAs.  We realized that we had not packed them and sent them to USSOCOM overnight.  They arrived a couple of days late.

OUR RIFLES WERE REJECTED ONLY BECAUSE WE DID NOT HAVE THE BFAS IN THE PACKAGE.

There was  no "Full and Open" competition for the SCAR project despite claims made to the contrary.  We believe that the XCRTm Modular Weapon System design is the best design to meet the needs of USSOCOM and of the whole Army.  The XCRTm Modular Weapon System is the only really new system designed and made in the U.S. by a company which is wholly owned by U.S. citizens.  Furthermore, the development of this product has been privately funded by U.S. citizens.  The XCRTm Modular Weapon System and all of its tooling are completely made in the U.S.  When you support us, you support your countrymen and private industry.



So did Robinson develop an EGLM for the XCR?
Standard M16 BFAs would be readily available. I find it unlikely to be the sole basis for rejecting the XCR. However, if they really really really wanted the SCAR, they'd find ways to reject the other entrants - like slappng an EGLM requirement 2 months before the evaluation date.
Link Posted: 6/10/2006 4:49:14 PM EDT
[#27]
I don't have any grudge against RobArm, but I wonder if that blank firing adapter is the same issue that's delayed production for over two years.

Seriously, it seems to me that the XCR system had alot bigger troubles than the BFA.

Link Posted: 6/10/2006 5:39:11 PM EDT
[#28]

Quoted:
SCAR Porn pdf.

Not sure if this is old, but I'd never seen it before. Enjoy.

ETA: It has to be pretty new as they have Tango Down products on them. (Tango Down just received a contract to supply VFG's and rail panel covers for the SCAR rifles.)




Wonder what happened to the GripPod idea?
Link Posted: 6/10/2006 5:55:49 PM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
SCAR Porn pdf.

Not sure if this is old, but I'd never seen it before. Enjoy.

ETA: It has to be pretty new as they have Tango Down products on them. (Tango Down just received a contract to supply VFG's and rail panel covers for the SCAR rifles.)




Wonder what happened to the GripPod idea?



Ask West Grant from MSTN.  He's a self proclaimed GripPod convert.
Link Posted: 6/10/2006 6:13:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Probably too expensive. I thought the Grip Pod was the coolest thing since soft toilet paper, until I saw the price.
Link Posted: 6/11/2006 6:18:58 PM EDT
[#31]

Quoted:
Probably too expensive. I thought the Grip Pod was the coolest thing since soft toilet paper, until I saw the price.



That didn't stop the US Army from giving SWR a contract for them back in February.  The contract options allow for acquisition of up to 40,050 Grip Pods.
Link Posted: 6/17/2006 2:50:33 PM EDT
[#32]
So i found some new EX17 (when are they going to decide on a name? MK17? EX17? SCAR-H? ARM?) pictures from the Eurosatory.  Apparently the CQC version has gone to a 12" barrel. Very wise.






Link Posted: 6/17/2006 3:35:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Kemp,  Thanks for the pix!  From the look of the stock could it be the Gen3 version?
Link Posted: 6/17/2006 3:37:41 PM EDT
[#34]
It sure appears like it. I also noticed the cheekpiece has a different shape now. I actually thought the 2nd gen cheekpiece looked best. This thing looks like they accidently left it on a heater
Link Posted: 6/17/2006 5:53:04 PM EDT
[#35]
Yes!  it sure does.
Link Posted: 6/17/2006 10:54:27 PM EDT
[#36]
What web site did you find those pictures on?   Is that a AAC flash hider/silencer mount?

Jason
Link Posted: 6/18/2006 2:36:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Best looking .308 I've ever seen.

Thanks for the pics!
Link Posted: 6/19/2006 1:17:08 AM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:
What web site did you find those pictures on?   Is that a AAC flash hider/silencer mount?

Jason



It looks like it's the AAC two-point suppressor mount indeed. I found the pics on militaryphotos.net after some googling for EX17.
Link Posted: 6/19/2006 2:08:58 AM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:
How about we just replace current uppers with the 6.5mm grendel uppers.  From what I have read, this is the perfect blend between the 5.56 and the 7.62.  Accuracy, range, stopping power, not too bad on recoil.  No need to replace our whole rifle.  I like the AR alot, I think just buying a bunch up 6.5mm uppers with some rail handgaurds would be fine.  

Then again, I am just a comm troop :)




'cause there's really nothing wrong witht he M16/M4 and 5.56 - nothing that standardizing on Mk262 wouldn't fix...

There just isn't enough of a problem with 5.56 to justify a new caliber, and there really haven't been any advances in weapons design since the M16 (weapons CONSTRUCTION has advanced, with the use of composite materials in place of metal, but nothing really new & useful has been invented in terms of actions, barrels, etc...)...

You may see Mk262, but the need to buy all new EVERYTHING related to weapons is not something the military wants to do...

Heck, the SCAR hasn't left the SF community, and the folks eager to replace the M16 are jumping all over it...

In the end, the following points still hold true:

(1) The M16 is no more or less reliable than any other weapon, so long as you maintain it properly.

(2) If you build a weapon with close clearances (which any weapon suitable for US service will have), it will be more prone to jam if unmaintained than a weapon built loose as a rattle-trap...

(3) Some traditionalists have NEVER gotten past the 7.62x51, and the .45ACP. No matter what is fielded, if it doesn't magically vaporize the enemy it will be deamed lacking in comparison to these 'legendary' rounds...

(4) There is a specific psychological disconnect WRT weapons effectiveness, which causes folks in combat to over-emphasize their own equipment's faults & believe the enemy equipment is better... Hence the Iraqis want M4s, and some of our guys worship the damn AK...

Time will tell, but I'd say the M16 is going to be around for a while...

If they ever get composite construction right, a polymer M16 reciever might be a nice improvement... But that's about the only 'better' thing developed besides the heavy .223 OTM bullets...
Link Posted: 6/21/2006 5:55:33 PM EDT
[#40]

Quoted:
...(1) The M16 is no more or less reliable than any other weapon, so long as you maintain it properly....



<Colorized emphasis added>

This reason alone is why SOCOM went looking to something else.  SF often use their primaries like a SAW, expending a higher volume of fire, which shouldn't be too surprising.

It wasn't explicitly required in the SCAR RFP, but an indirect op-system was preferred for obvious reasons - reasons like improved operational reliability, reduced component fatigue/failure, reduced maintenance requirements, to mention only a few.  The M4 works fine for the regular troops & throwing it out seems far-fetched & highly implausible.  That said, it has limitations that can not be addressed w/in its design envelope.  Hence, the SCAR program.
Link Posted: 6/21/2006 9:11:06 PM EDT
[#41]
Ad in this month's American Rifleman:


What sucks is the little sidebar that says "This ad is for information only.  This system and its accessories are currently available for US Military sales only."  Rats....
Link Posted: 6/22/2006 2:49:06 PM EDT
[#42]

Quoted:
Ad in this month's American Rifleman:
home.comcast.net/~scott.collins4/FNSCAR_AR_ad.jpg

What sucks is the little sidebar that says "This ad is for information only.  This system and its accessories are currently available for US Military sales only."  Rats....



Saw that ad too.

Notice that they say "currently". Makes me think they want to expand production and availability in the future.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 6/22/2006 3:21:34 PM EDT
[#43]
We can only hope.
Link Posted: 6/22/2006 4:14:11 PM EDT
[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Ad in this month's American Rifleman:
home.comcast.net/~scott.collins4/FNSCAR_AR_ad.jpg

What sucks is the little sidebar that says "This ad is for information only.  This system and its accessories are currently available for US Military sales only."  Rats....



Saw that ad too.

Notice that they say "currently". Makes me think they want to expand production and availability in the future.

WIZZO



If SOCOM rejects the FN SCAR, then you'll be sure to see a civilian version popping up lickity split.
Link Posted: 6/22/2006 4:16:34 PM EDT
[#45]
No rumors, and no private conversations.


"Production of a semi-automatic only version of the innovative modular rifle system with a target to LE and commerical markets will potentially be available in the next two years."


Click the link below. It's the second to last paragraph on page five. This is an official press release from FNH USA in PDF format.
Click >HERE<.
Link Posted: 6/22/2006 4:19:19 PM EDT
[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Ad in this month's American Rifleman:
home.comcast.net/~scott.collins4/FNSCAR_AR_ad.jpg

What sucks is the little sidebar that says "This ad is for information only.  This system and its accessories are currently available for US Military sales only."  Rats....



Saw that ad too.

Notice that they say "currently". Makes me think they want to expand production and availability in the future.

WIZZO



If SOCOM rejects the FN SCAR, then you'll be sure to see a civilian version popping up lickity split.


SOCOM already has a contract with FN. They couldn't/wouldn't reject the SCAR if they wanted to.
Link Posted: 6/22/2006 4:28:27 PM EDT
[#47]
That is good news!  Let's hope FN will keep the semi version below $2000.
Link Posted: 6/22/2006 4:52:17 PM EDT
[#48]
I am sure its been asked but to save me the time 16 pages takes, what makes this FN CARP better choice than the M4 with a piston upper?

Not being a Colt-bunny here. Seriously- when you consider the parts in the supply chain, the familiarity all branches have with it, and its accepted leap forward with the new piston design..........


why not?

or Why? as the case may be.

Is this a payola deal with the dude in Tampa (the SOCOM bribery case) or a "Duke Cunningham?"
Link Posted: 6/22/2006 5:11:17 PM EDT
[#49]
The onlt criticism i have of this rifle (currently) is that it has no bayonet lug. Sorry, if im clearing a structure, i want a bayonet. its a way to keep baddies 3 ft away from me... some thing that i like and should be standard IMHO
Link Posted: 6/22/2006 5:21:13 PM EDT
[#50]

Quoted:
I am sure its been asked but to save me the time 16 pages takes, what makes this FN CARP better choice than the M4 with a piston upper?

Not being a Colt-bunny here. Seriously- when you consider the parts in the supply chain, the familiarity all branches have with it, and its accepted leap forward with the new piston design..........


why not?

or Why? as the case may be.

Is this a payola deal with the dude in Tampa (the SOCOM bribery case) or a "Duke Cunningham?"


It would take about three times the cost of a SCAR to get the M4 up to par.

Let's break it down in civilian price.

M4 - ~$1100 - $1400 (Colt 6920).
FF handguard - ~$200 - $300.
Piston conversion - ~$300 - $600.
Monolithic upper - ~$900 - $1600.
Updated stock - ~$100 - $300.

There's alot there that the AR15/M16 can't have all in one package. This isn't even listing the things the AR15/M16 could not possibly do that the SCAR can. So you can dump all of that money into an M4, or you can have a package that does it all naturally plus some for about the same cost.

You can drop $120K into a Yugo and have it be almost as fast as a Corvette, or you can buy the Corvette for $70K and still outperform the Yugo.
Page / 11
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top