User Panel
It'd be funny if SOCOM ditched the SCAR like yesterday's trash like the Army with the XM8.
|
|
I don't know where you got that idea. I'd be shocked if you could get one for under two large. |
|
|
I was just going by this individual's posts as far as looking at a civie's cost. Sounds reasonable to me...I've seen new systems like the XCR in the 1500-2K$ price range. Also, you have the price of POFs system in that range also. As I said, my comment may not be worth 0.02$... :) |
|
|
Not all FN reps have all of the right info. Seeing how the FS2000 is being jacked up in price, I don't see any reason for them to sell the civilian SCAR at a cheap price, even if there will be a civilian SCAR. If the SCAR military/gov contracts pick up like a mofo (read: PROFITS $$$$$$$$$$$), it's not going to tempt them to start producing small production numbers of civilian SCARs for such a small market. If the SCAR were dropped by SOCOM (I'm just talking hypothetically), then you can definitely expect to see a civilian SCAR because FN needs to recoup some of its losses. Everyone's leaning away from the P90 and none of the large military/LE agencies in the US have really picked uip on the F2000, which is why you're seeing the PS90 and FS2000 coming to the US market.
|
|
|
Won't happen. No offense to the ARMY, but the whole OICW program was nothing short of being completely retarded. The idea that soldiers were going to carry around 30 pound guns that are the size of a car door was a big whiff. Add in HK being egotistically confident in an unproven design and you have a recipe for disaster. We basically paid 30 million dollars so HK could find out the G36/XM8 was a piece of shit, and so the ARMY could realize that you can't build one gun to do every task a soldier needs to. FN paid for all of the development of the SCAR and had the ARMY given them 30 million dollars, they would probably have a rock solid rifle system that was ready to go. |
|
|
It sounds like FN took a big financial risk in developing the SCAR... They probably made up for it with the PS90 |
||
|
You never know, they might have. They got a decent chunk of change from the SCAR contract, but I'm sure that's nothing compared to what they have into the SCAR/ARM rifles over all. |
|||
|
Some people just can't seem to read the thread at all. From the FIRST PARAGRAPH.
WIZZO |
|||
|
So, bottom line, when can I buy the civilian version and how much is it going to cost me?
|
|
Yup... It will catch on outside SOCOM about as well as the HK Mk23 and the Stoner 63 Note that the next Army sniper weapon is an AR pattern rifle - the Knights SR-25... |
|
|
Well, I'm as much in favor of having a variety of guns on the market , as anybody, and I like this SCAR rifle just fine.
However, in the overall scheme of things, regarding it "replacing" the M16/M4, I really can't see it. Especially now that time has marched on since the original SCAR competition, and there are other rifles out there now, and upcoming, that squarely can challenge anything the SCAR can do, and maybe even do better. And some are M4-based. The minute you finalize on a design, that is the minute you start losing ground to the newer developments that are moving forward. It's just the way technology is. Eventually, everybody gets "leap-frogged" in some way or other. |
|
TWL, assuming that even if SOCOM picks up SCAR that Big Green will stick with M16/M4, what do you think are the chances of a "smaller" organization, say, oh, the USMC, also going SCAR?
John |
|
A sniper system is a special-purpose piece, for which the AR does well. However, sustained fire has shown it has its limits, requiring more field maintenance to sustain functionality compared to indirect operating methods. High temps reduce parts lifespan. How well it will catch on is purely a matter of conjecture until reality bites.
Of course, the same logic applies to all those other small arms. I'll withhold judgement until it gets out & shows its mettle. "New" vs. "old" is irrelevant. Performance is what counts. Hopefully, ths SCAR-ARM will have been (taxpayer) $$$ well-spent. |
||
|
SCAR Porn pdf.
Not sure if this is old, but I'd never seen it before. Enjoy. ETA: It has to be pretty new as they have Tango Down products on them. (Tango Down just received a contract to supply VFG's and rail panel covers for the SCAR rifles.) |
|
Sweet!
I added that to my favorites. Interesting that they wanted the SCAR-L to do between .5 and .7 MOA at 300m as shown on page 13 of the pdf. WIZZO |
|
If the SCAR rifles shoot 1.5 inch groups at 300 yards, that would be amazing. Especially with both rifles weighing under 8 pounds in their match barreled forms.
Another thing I find amazing is that the SCAR-L requires no drain time for firing after having been under water, and the SCAR-H takes less than two seconds. |
|
Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter has lots of SCAR action (SCAR L and SCAR H), it's so advanced it won't run with my GeForce 5900 vid card.
|
|
John, As far as I can see, there is really no telling what is going to pan out with any of the service branches. It's all so up in the air right now. The SCAR certainly has a chance, and is in probably the best position right now, since it has the history of winning a trials program, and is somewhat in the driver's seat. But, we've all seen the rug get pulled out from under things before, so who can tell? |
|
|
just curious which rifles you would put on that list ? |
|
|
But the report also says it went from box-to-wire in 10 months The liklihood of developing a long-term winner that quickly - no matter whose input we get - is thinking optimistically. |
||
|
Well, of course I'd put our MGI package up against it, but we were too late for the SCAR trials, and only part of our package is even available because of these delays we've incurred. So, I'd have to put our modular system into the category of "part here, and part upcoming". MGI is the only system to be capable of providing both the "L" and "H" caliber platforms on a single gun with the same upper and lower receivers(that I know of). At this time, the MGI system is direct-gas-impingement operation, which may be a good or bad thing, depending on your point of view. A piston system can easily be added to this platform if desired, and we have experience in piston operated gun designs since introducing our first one in the 1970's under our original Bushmaster label(We owned Bushmaster back then). We also have a collapsible AR-type carbine stock instead of a folding stock, and that could also be considered a positive or negative, based on your point of view. We also have other features designed for the platform that go well beyond the SCAR trials requirements. Our main design thrust is sufficient modularity in one platform to be able to quickly and easily configure to nearly any changing requirements that might come up. Then there is the XCR, which was almost a SCAR entry until they forgot to include the blank-firing adapter and were disqualified on the technicality. I guess nobody really knows yet how that would have fared in the competition. It has a piston, and a folding stock, and some caliber conversion ability from what I've heard about it. So, that is here now. And there is some possiblity from the Cobb rifles, but I'm not too familiar with them. They seem to have some of the desired features. Some of the Cobb stuff is here now, and some upcoming. And there is the HK416/417 , although I'm hearing some stuff that it is too heavy and isn't as controllable as some would like. It didn't get entered in the SCAR trials, but it seems to have features that are aimed at that. These guns are here now, but not commercially. And then there's POF, which is now playing the field with light(AR15 sized) and medium(AR-10 sized) piston system platforms. One for the AR15 platform, and one for the AR10 type platform gives them "L" or "H" type platforms for the needed calibers, similar to HK with their own design and improvments made. And so is LW doing a very similar arrangement with their piston on the 2 different sized AR platforms, again similar to HK with their own piston design and other improvements. Both these companies have their own unique designs, and I don't mean to say they are the same as the HK system, but just that they have dual AR-style platforms for the L or H requirements. Obviously, both of these companies' guns are here now. Exactly how any of these will actually fare in head to head competition against the SCAR would have to be seen. However, they are in the ballpark, and who's to say exactly what would eventually come out on top? In the real world performance area, there is no arbitrary set of rules/requirements to be met on paper, so it would be whatever really works best in practice in the field. In a completely open-class competition, no holds barred, or artificial rules set in place, there could be some interesting outcomes. These are some examples, and I didn't mean to leave any others out, if I did. Naturally, I'm biased towards the MGI system since I'm involved with it, but I tried to give a fair list of guns which could be competitors in their own ways. I think that it shows that there are a number of companies responding to the perceived needs of these advanced weapons systems, and that technology is moving forward on more than one front. |
|
|
Did that actually happen? If the XCR entry used a 22mm NATO adapter, why didn't someone just give them a $5 USGI BFA? DQ'ing the entry based on this tiny technicality is absurd. I am not even pro-XCR, but it just sounds kind of far fetched even for .GOV and .MIL procurement. |
|
|
Well, that is what Robinson Arms claimed back when this stuff was happening. They actually had an explanation like that posted up on their website at the time. I know it was there, because I read it on their site. They were pretty angry about it, and seemed to feel "robbed" of their opportunity to compete. There was quite a bit of "hoopla" going on about it back then. It's no longer on the website, and I didn't find it in a quick google search. I don't know specifically what went on behind the scenes regarding the BFA. All I know is that Robarms made that statement. I assume that it is accurate, and I have no information to confirm or contradict it. If anybody else knows more about it, maybe they can be more help. Edited to add: A little more Google searching yields this link to Robarms explanation. www.robarm.com/xcrtm_modular_weapon_system_reje.htm |
||
|
So did Robinson develop an EGLM for the XCR? Standard M16 BFAs would be readily available. I find it unlikely to be the sole basis for rejecting the XCR. However, if they really really really wanted the SCAR, they'd find ways to reject the other entrants - like slappng an EGLM requirement 2 months before the evaluation date. |
|
|
I don't have any grudge against RobArm, but I wonder if that blank firing adapter is the same issue that's delayed production for over two years.
Seriously, it seems to me that the XCR system had alot bigger troubles than the BFA. |
|
Wonder what happened to the GripPod idea? |
|
|
Ask West Grant from MSTN. He's a self proclaimed GripPod convert. |
||
|
Probably too expensive. I thought the Grip Pod was the coolest thing since soft toilet paper, until I saw the price.
|
|
That didn't stop the US Army from giving SWR a contract for them back in February. The contract options allow for acquisition of up to 40,050 Grip Pods. |
|
|
|
Kemp, Thanks for the pix! From the look of the stock could it be the Gen3 version?
|
|
It sure appears like it. I also noticed the cheekpiece has a different shape now. I actually thought the 2nd gen cheekpiece looked best. This thing looks like they accidently left it on a heater
|
|
What web site did you find those pictures on? Is that a AAC flash hider/silencer mount?
Jason |
|
It looks like it's the AAC two-point suppressor mount indeed. I found the pics on militaryphotos.net after some googling for EX17. |
|
|
'cause there's really nothing wrong witht he M16/M4 and 5.56 - nothing that standardizing on Mk262 wouldn't fix... There just isn't enough of a problem with 5.56 to justify a new caliber, and there really haven't been any advances in weapons design since the M16 (weapons CONSTRUCTION has advanced, with the use of composite materials in place of metal, but nothing really new & useful has been invented in terms of actions, barrels, etc...)... You may see Mk262, but the need to buy all new EVERYTHING related to weapons is not something the military wants to do... Heck, the SCAR hasn't left the SF community, and the folks eager to replace the M16 are jumping all over it... In the end, the following points still hold true: (1) The M16 is no more or less reliable than any other weapon, so long as you maintain it properly. (2) If you build a weapon with close clearances (which any weapon suitable for US service will have), it will be more prone to jam if unmaintained than a weapon built loose as a rattle-trap... (3) Some traditionalists have NEVER gotten past the 7.62x51, and the .45ACP. No matter what is fielded, if it doesn't magically vaporize the enemy it will be deamed lacking in comparison to these 'legendary' rounds... (4) There is a specific psychological disconnect WRT weapons effectiveness, which causes folks in combat to over-emphasize their own equipment's faults & believe the enemy equipment is better... Hence the Iraqis want M4s, and some of our guys worship the damn AK... Time will tell, but I'd say the M16 is going to be around for a while... If they ever get composite construction right, a polymer M16 reciever might be a nice improvement... But that's about the only 'better' thing developed besides the heavy .223 OTM bullets... |
|
|
<Colorized emphasis added> This reason alone is why SOCOM went looking to something else. SF often use their primaries like a SAW, expending a higher volume of fire, which shouldn't be too surprising. It wasn't explicitly required in the SCAR RFP, but an indirect op-system was preferred for obvious reasons - reasons like improved operational reliability, reduced component fatigue/failure, reduced maintenance requirements, to mention only a few. The M4 works fine for the regular troops & throwing it out seems far-fetched & highly implausible. That said, it has limitations that can not be addressed w/in its design envelope. Hence, the SCAR program. |
|
|
|
Saw that ad too. Notice that they say "currently". Makes me think they want to expand production and availability in the future. WIZZO |
|
|
If SOCOM rejects the FN SCAR, then you'll be sure to see a civilian version popping up lickity split. |
||
|
No rumors, and no private conversations.
Click the link below. It's the second to last paragraph on page five. This is an official press release from FNH USA in PDF format. Click >HERE<. |
|
|
SOCOM already has a contract with FN. They couldn't/wouldn't reject the SCAR if they wanted to. |
|||
|
That is good news! Let's hope FN will keep the semi version below $2000.
|
|
I am sure its been asked but to save me the time 16 pages takes, what makes this FN CARP better choice than the M4 with a piston upper?
Not being a Colt-bunny here. Seriously- when you consider the parts in the supply chain, the familiarity all branches have with it, and its accepted leap forward with the new piston design.......... why not? or Why? as the case may be. Is this a payola deal with the dude in Tampa (the SOCOM bribery case) or a "Duke Cunningham?" |
|
The onlt criticism i have of this rifle (currently) is that it has no bayonet lug. Sorry, if im clearing a structure, i want a bayonet. its a way to keep baddies 3 ft away from me... some thing that i like and should be standard IMHO
|
|
It would take about three times the cost of a SCAR to get the M4 up to par. Let's break it down in civilian price. M4 - ~$1100 - $1400 (Colt 6920). FF handguard - ~$200 - $300. Piston conversion - ~$300 - $600. Monolithic upper - ~$900 - $1600. Updated stock - ~$100 - $300. There's alot there that the AR15/M16 can't have all in one package. This isn't even listing the things the AR15/M16 could not possibly do that the SCAR can. So you can dump all of that money into an M4, or you can have a package that does it all naturally plus some for about the same cost. You can drop $120K into a Yugo and have it be almost as fast as a Corvette, or you can buy the Corvette for $70K and still outperform the Yugo. |
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.