NOveske SS w/ polygonal rifling or LMT chrome lined.........  what would the purposes be for each, ie. what are each designed for? their Barrel life? pro's and con's, other than price..... I want to buy one or the other

I hear everyone saying chrome lined isn't as accurate, but why are they not?  Can someone explain this?

Quoted: I hear everyone saying chrome lined isn't as accurate, but why are they not?  Can someone explain this?

Chrome doesn't coat the barrel at exactly the same thickenss along the length of the barrel. So ther can be slight high and low spots somewhere in the rifling, after the chrome is applied.

Stainless, depending on apllication is alleged to have better life than chrome-moly, but less than chrome lined barrels. SS also cleans pretty easily. SS generally costs more however.

Will I only see these accuracy improvements from the bench? Here in Canada we can only shoot AR's at the range so for me it would be for tactical matches(up to 100yds), and want to do 3 gun. So lots of moving and quick shots... but hey... maybe service rifle comps too (I think they get to 500?)

Oh and barrel life...... I think I read somewhere SS have shot sub MOA to 15000?

whatdaya figure?

Quoted: I hear everyone saying chrome lined isn't as accurate, but why are they not?  Can someone explain this?

Three reasons. Firstly, manufacturers do not chrome line high quality barrels. They chrome line a cheaper barrel, because most purchasers of CL barrels do not need the ultimate in accuracy. Secondly, the lining does not apply evenly. There are thick spots and thin spots. This isn't good for accuracy either. Thirdly, the burrs and surface inconsistencies in the bore are made permanent when they are lined. Thus they do not wear off within the first few hundred rounds, like in unlined barrels.

If someone took a match grade handlapped barrel and carefully aplied chrome, the result would almost certainly be a barrel that is essentially as accurate as a non lined match grade hand lapped barrel. A benchrest shooter would notice the difference, but the cops, soldiers and citizens who would use such a barrel probably wouldn't.

In the future, nitride boron and other metal treatments may be used to harden the rifling, producing a bore that lasts longer than chrome and is as accurate as an identical untreated barrel.

Quoted: Will I only see these accuracy improvements from the bench? Here in Canada we can only shoot AR's at the range so for me it would be for tactical matches(up to 100yds), and want to do 3 gun. So lots of moving and quick shots... but hey... maybe service rifle comps too (I think they get to 500?) Oh and barrel life...... I think I read somewhere SS have shot sub MOA to 15000? whatdaya figure?

Figure groups in the 1" range with a free floated chrome lined barrel of good manufacture with good ammo. Then 3/4" for a similar unlined barrel, and 1/2" for a match barrel. Will it matter in your application? Not really.

The 15k round sub moa SS barrel was the Noveske. The polygonal rifling is where the difference lays.

Quoted: I for instance require ALL my AR's to be as accurate possible and will never again own a chrome lined barrel. C4 www.GRTactical.com

The only thing I like better than my SS 0.5 MOA barrel is my CL 0.8 MOA barrel.
Many thanks, Grant, I got it from you!

How hot could one get a SS barrel before they should start worrying?

Quoted: In the future, nitride boron and other metal treatments may be used to harden the rifling, producing a bore that lasts longer than chrome and is as accurate as an identical untreated barrel.

Already being done.

I,m waiting for Noveske chrome lined barrels to come out -just maybe we can have the BEST of both worlds .

>>>  Winchester has build a rifle using a chrome lined barrel -From All the reviews I have read it is one  accurate rifle. <<<

ABS already has the best of both worlds.  Same Pac Nor polygonal rifled balnk that Noveske uses (he only chambers the blank, not make the barrel) with an electroless Ni/Si carbide lining that has more corrosion resistance then hard chrome, more wear resistance then hard chrome, better adhesion than hard chrome, lacks the micro fractures to the substrate metal etc.  It does not harm the accuracy of a stainless barrel either.  A hard chromed Noveske is not going to have as good of a lining nor be as accurate nor can hard chrome be applied to stainless.

Link to ABS?

Here you go.  Certainly not cheap.  However better heat dissipation than a fluted HBAR while weighing less than an ultralight while retaining HBAR like accuracy is nothing to sneeze at. Mine should be delivered in about 2 weeks. (PacNor 1/7 polygonal carbon fiber with lining on bore, chamber, barrel extension including the lugs etc)
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Quoted: Here you go.  Certainly not cheap.  However better heat dissipation than a fluted HBAR while weighing less than an ultralight while retaining HBAR like accuracy is nothing to sneeze at. Mine should be delivered in about 2 weeks. (PacNor 1/7 polygonal carbon fiber with lining on bore, chamber, barrel extension including the lugs etc) Thread Thread #2 Homepage

I was seriously considering one of those barrels, but when I was asking around about them on another gun forum, a guy who claimed to be an engineer with a lot of knowledge about thermodynamics criticized the design. He claimed that a carbon barrel couldn't possibly dissipate heat as well as an all metal barrel.

I linked him the ABS thread so he could see for himself that they weren't using run of the mill carbon fiber, but claimed to have a thermally conductive matrix. I also told him how their tests had even showed the good results, but that didn't change his mind. He wrote a rather lengthy post about why their claims couldn't be true. In essence he thought that they were actually insulating the heat with the carbon fiber and that's why they didn't feel the heat, but that inside, where the SS and carbon touched they were probably very, very hot.

I tried to find his post but it no longer exists, otherwise I'd post it here.

Anyway, I'm not saying that what he said is true or that I agree with him. My point isn't to try and bash ABS or twl either. From what I've seen twl post, I like the guy.

My engineering background doesn't include much in the way of thermodynamics, so I don't consider myself knowledgable enough to come to a valid conclusion.

I only mention this because I'd like to get some input from some other people, preferrably engineers who know a bit about thermodynamics before I plunk down that much money for a barrel.

EDIT:Ok, I actually did find the guy's post with some more digging. I rarely post on that forum anymore, but when I finally dug it up it seems that the guy had taken back his statement about carbon not having good thermal conducting properties. Now he's saying that carbon can actually be double that of copper. (So, which is it buddy?)

But he still thinks that using a thin SS liner is a bad choice of materials, especially in colder climates. Doesn't say why though and I seem to remember twl saying that the barrel was tested in extreme cold and it worked out fine, so...

That being said, it kind of makes everything I posted above moot because the guy obviously doesn't know as much as he thinks he does.

I'm still interested to get some oppinions from some other engineers out there though. Have there been any independant testing done by ARFCOM members yet?

My interest level just jumped on the ABS stuff.

Quoted: In the future, nitride boron and other metal treatments may be used to harden the rifling, producing a bore that lasts longer than chrome and is as accurate as an identical untreated barrel.

Old news... and does not work so well.

They pulled an ABS out of the deep freeze with ice hanging off it and shot it no problem.  It didnt cook off with a 600 round torture test.  They threw a barrel in the air and let it hit the ground and whacked it like a basball bat and had damage less than metal would have been as it just made a small chip and metal would have been gouged and removed finish and started rusting.  It has anti fracture propgating winding so it waont fall apart if damaged.  The barrel is strong enough to have all the carbon fiber removed and still function 100% though with reduced rigidity and heat dissipation.  They still dont have a failure on the barrels with the new lining because they cant put enough rounds through emn to wear em out so no word on barrel life.

Whatever the final results are I didnt see how it could be anything but a step up from current barrel technologies so I dropped my cash and will report my findings.  I like to test stuff.

Quoted: Whatever the final results are I didnt see how it could be anything but a step up from current barrel technologies so I dropped my cash and will report my findings.  I like to test stuff.

DevL - you might want to clarify to people when you are recommending these ABS barrels that you do not actually have one just yet. Often reading your posts, I get the impression you already own one and are witnessing these effects first hand.

Quoted: They pulled an ABS out of the deep freeze with ice hanging off it and shot it no problem.  It didnt cook off with a 600 round torture test.  They threw a barrel in the air and let it hit the ground and whacked it like a basball bat and had damage less than metal would have been as it just made a small chip and metal would have been gouged and removed finish and started rusting.  It has anti fracture propgating winding so it waont fall apart if damaged.  The barrel is strong enough to have all the carbon fiber removed and still function 100% though with reduced rigidity and heat dissipation.  They still dont have a failure on the barrels with the new lining because they cant put enough rounds through emn to wear em out so no word on barrel life. Whatever the final results are I didnt see how it could be anything but a step up from current barrel technologies so I dropped my cash and will report my findings.  I like to test stuff.

Sounds good DevL. I can't wait to hear how the barrel turns out for you.

Quoted: Quoted: Whatever the final results are I didnt see how it could be anything but a step up from current barrel technologies so I dropped my cash and will report my findings.  I like to test stuff. DevL - you might want to clarify to people when you are recommending these ABS barrels that you do not actually have one just yet. Often reading your posts, I get the impression you already own one and are witnessing these effects first hand.

I did that in the 2nd post.

Quoted: Quoted: The 15k round sub moa SS barrel was the Noveske. The polygonal rifling is where the difference lays. I hate to sound like a broken record, but poly barrels do not last any longer than standard cut or button rifled barrels.  Its been proven over and over again, and stated here by folks who know what they are talking about.   Unless you are shooting competition, with match ammo, you wont notice any accuracy difference between a Match Grade SS barrel and a chrome lined battle barrel. If you are choosing SS do so for the corrosion resistance, just be honest with yourself when it comes to the accuracy you expect to achieve.  If your in CA, and only shooting 5rds at at time, most any barrel should last quite a while.

FWIW, I recognize that the vast majority of the equation is the shooter. The extra accuracy that I would like is for hunting and target shooting--I want to lay down with the rifle on a ruck or bipod and make hits on steel or coyotes at 500+ meters.

I also have seen the effect that my states weather has on CM barrels. I'll never buy CM again. SS all the way!

Quoted: Quoted: In the future, nitride boron and other metal treatments may be used to harden the rifling, producing a bore that lasts longer than chrome and is as accurate as an identical untreated barrel. Already being done.

I'm trying not to give too much information about something I heard away

With chrome lined if you get it hot enough once it seems like the chrome strips out and the accuracy goes down the shitter.  

I think the Noveske SS poly sounds a lot better.   I don't think you'ld be seeing 3-5moa with one of those.

Quoted: Unless you are shooting competition, with match ammo, you wont notice any accuracy difference between a Match Grade SS barrel and a chrome lined battle barrel.

Cool, Haji and TX hogs will never know the difference then.