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Page AR-15 » AR Discussions
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 6/9/2011 7:54:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 8:20:29 AM EDT
[#1]
I definitely think weight and materials need to be on the chart. I'd love to see the chart set up in a way that makes it easy to compare all rifles to the 6920, the AR benchmark. So all of the features/specs that differentiate, for example, a S&W Sport from a 6920 should be included:

weight
receiver materials
carrier key staking(no, OK, correct)
barrel material
barrel treatments/lining
rec ext (mil, comm)
F marked fsb
rifling type
twist rate, etc.
MSRP
online/street price(preferably from site vendors, but not necessarily mentioning the vendors).

ETA: fixed for ya Z, sorry.
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 8:22:52 AM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 8:52:53 AM EDT
[#3]
I think it would be very helpful to include handguards as well as optics. I added handguards but not sure how we would compare optics as they can be very different so maybe that isn't quite as useful as I would have originally thought.
Handguards:






Length






Gas system compatibility (based on having standard FSB)






Weight






Weight including barrel nut (those that have an aftermarket barrel nut generally have a lighter one than the standard nut)

Diameter of handguard tube (width)

Circumference of handguard tube




Free Floating? (yes, no)






Sling swivel mount? (yes, no)






Anti-rotation sling swivel mount? (yes, no)






Barrel compatibility (all, gov't/m4, socom, hbar, lw)






Aftermarket barrel nut? (yes, no)





Quad rail design? (yes, no)





Modular rails available? (yes, no)


Continuous top rail from flat top to handguard? (yes, no)
Please disregard this post if you are only intending to include factory rifles and not aftermarket parts. I may have misunderstood the purpose of this chart.
 
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 9:07:32 AM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 9:31:27 AM EDT
[#5]
<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>

Link Posted: 6/9/2011 9:33:06 AM EDT
[#6]
I'd like to see some info on triggers; weight, single stage or two stage, adjustable or not, etc.  A side by side comparison might help you narrow your list to two or three triggers within a few minutes.
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 9:41:56 AM EDT
[#7]







Quoted:




I'd like to see some info on triggers; weight, single stage or two stage, adjustable or not, etc.  A side by side comparison might help you narrow your list to two or three triggers within a few minutes.




Something like this?
Triggers:



Pull weight (in lbs) [If 2 stage, can we list both the weight of the first and second stage pull?]



Stages (Single, Two)

Drop in? (yes, no)



Front travel (meaning from beginning of pull to firing) length (in inches)



Front travel adjustable? (yes, no)



Rear travel (meaning from firing to end of trigger pull) length (in inches)



Rear travel adjustable? (yes, no)



Reset distance (meaning from end of trigger pull to trigger reset) (in inches)



Reset adjustable? (yes, no)
Note: I put this together without much knowledge of how currently available triggers are adjustable. Some or all of these categories may not apply to any triggers available.
 
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 9:47:29 AM EDT
[#8]
receiver extension MATERIAL (6061 OR 7075)
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 9:52:53 AM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 10:00:23 AM EDT
[#10]
<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>




IE, just list the twist rate, let the reader determine if that twist is suitable for their needs.





One specific dimension I'd like to see listed for various handguards is the width and overall circumference of handguards.





A couple of things on lower receivers that I'd like to see mentioned are the lowers with trigger takeup adjustments as well as how the magwell is machined and flared which effects how some magazines fit.





Bolt material (Carpenter 158, 8620, 9310, etc) would be very helpful, more useful than the "HPT/MPI" hype.
 
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 10:03:11 AM EDT
[#11]
<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>


Link Posted: 6/9/2011 10:06:14 AM EDT
[#12]
hammers, notched or not
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 10:32:30 AM EDT
[#13]
<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>


Link Posted: 6/9/2011 10:37:12 AM EDT
[#14]
<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>


Link Posted: 6/9/2011 10:37:47 AM EDT
[#15]
Barrel manufacture info: Are barrels button rifled, hammer forged, etc...
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 10:43:59 AM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 10:51:33 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Barrel manufacture info: Are barrels button rifled, hammer forged, etc...


Button Rifled
Cut Rifled
Hammer Forged

Polygonal
5r
number of lands?

SS
CMV
4150
4140

Melonite

Profile

Gas System Length

OP's collar cut?

Link Posted: 6/9/2011 11:08:33 AM EDT
[#18]
<Excess quote removed - Z>



It would be good to list whether or not the trigger is a drop in unit.
 
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 12:09:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Barrel manufacture info: <snip>


<snip>


Chrome lined, double thick chrome

SS, 410, 416, LW50, etc.

Gas block journal size, 1", 1.9", etc.

Straight pins, taper pins, set screw, clamp on gas blocks

Receivers, billet or forged, 7075, 6061, polymer, etc.

Spiral or split roll pins
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 12:16:44 PM EDT
[#20]
I would be most interested in materials and testing.  Things like barrel steel, bolt material, etc.  Do they perform HPT and MPI individually or in batches (or do they skip it).  Do they perform the testing in accordance with the TDP?  This might get difficult for you.  For instance they may claim to do HPT, but what do they define as "high pressure?"  They may do batch testing, but how often and how big is the batch?  Do they test the materials in-house themselves, or do they rely upon their suppliers to do it?  These are things that interest me, but I don't know how many of them will give you that kind of information.

Its going to be a lot of work to get this compiled and to keep it updated, but I like the idea, and I applaud your effort.
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 12:42:03 PM EDT
[#21]
Trigger pin/Hammer pin diameters
Front Pivot / Rear Takedown hardware and diameters.
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 1:01:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Trigger pin/Hammer pin diameters
Front Pivot / Rear Takedown hardware and diameters.


Older Colts are the only ones that differentiate from the standard.
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 2:01:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Receiver extension locktited/staked/ or both

Thats all i got
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 2:08:23 PM EDT
[#24]



Quoted:


I would be most interested in materials and testing.  Things like barrel steel, bolt material, etc.  Do they perform HPT and MPI individually or in batches (or do they skip it).  Do they perform the testing in accordance with the TDP?  This might get difficult for you.  For instance they may claim to do HPT, but what do they define as "high pressure?"  They may do batch testing, but how often and how big is the batch?  Do they test the materials in-house themselves, or do they rely upon their suppliers to do it?  These are things that interest me, but I don't know how many of them will give you that kind of information.



Its going to be a lot of work to get this compiled and to keep it updated, but I like the idea, and I applaud your effort.
I think this is important.  Plenty of companies claim to HPT/MPI, but what rejection criteria do they use for the MPI.  MPI means nothing if your rejection criteria are lax.  If they batch test, how big is the batch?



Now this isn't an AR company that did this, but recently it came to light that a gun manufacturer was claiming HPT/MPI when in fact they were MPI'd first then hit with an HPT after and then sent out the door.  Normally you would MPI after the HPT, so this was kinda weird and calls into question why do it at all if you are going to do it backwards?  The only reason I can think of is so they can claim HPT/MPI tested...



Things like that.  I am far more concerned about the quality of the testing and QC procedures...





 
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 2:10:09 PM EDT
[#25]
<Off-topic comment removed - Z>

Link Posted: 6/9/2011 2:33:54 PM EDT
[#26]
if the rifle and all of its parts are made in the usa.
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 2:38:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 2:48:19 PM EDT
[#28]
Ambi safety/mag release/bolt paddle (Y/N)
Bolt/BCG coating (phosphate, chrome, Fail Zero, etc.)
Ships with (quantity) (brand) magazines
Which flash suppressor
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 2:53:14 PM EDT
[#29]
If any parts are proprietary.
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 2:55:08 PM EDT
[#30]
Maybe a link to any reputable tests that may be available.

Link Posted: 6/9/2011 4:23:21 PM EDT
[#31]
I'm not sure how we'd manage it, but a quality control value would be nice. Certain brands produce products that on paper seem great, and when you get a good one they're great, but the number of poor copies out there seems to be far too high. I'm thinking of just a rating 1-5 of the general quality control at the user level. Lots of bad examples out there would be a 1, nearly all good examples would be a 5. So a company like Hesse/Blackthorne would be 1, Noveske, LaRue, KAC... would be 5's. Obviously these are just examples. I think the key is not the overall quality of the component, for example if LaRue's flashlight mounts for some reason had a history of a significant percentage being wobbly on standard rails, or the rings being a loose fit on flashlights they should hold securely....  then despite a high quality construction and materials they would get a lower score. Please, no flames, I just made it up as an example of how an otherwise high quality product from a good company might get a lower score. Going the other way, some bargain basement company that makes a product that always performs as advertised would get a high score for that product. It might be a junky nylon sling that is so untacticool no one will admit to owning it, but every single one works properly and came with all parts, so it gets a 5 even if it scores a 1 in other categories. For example, Primary Arms, despite their branded products being fairly low end, is excellent at quality control and giving you exactly what they promise. Sometimes there are issues but they go above and beyond to correct them on those rare occasions. Sure, the product isn't on par with the premium offerings, but that isn't what we're rating with this number.

Another rating I'd be interested in is customer service. Once again, I'll use LaRue as an example. What happens when a customer calls with a legitimate issue? Are they treated fairly and the stated warranty honored in a timely fashion? Are they given service above and beyond any reasonable expectation? Are they treated like they're a pain in the butt and the company is just fixing or replacing the product to shut them up...? Companies like LaRue get a 5, companies that change their phone number weekly and publish false email addresses for customer service would get a 1. I honestly can't think of any 1's still around in the AR world offhand, but I'm sure folks can chime in with examples.

To me both of these are important considerations when spending money, particularly if I'm spending it online or on a firearm related product. Unfortunately they're pretty hard to quantify without a lot of data gathering that isn't likely to happen, so maybe a general perception would suffice if gathered from a wide enough customer base.
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 4:33:12 PM EDT
[#32]
How about if the handguard requires a delta ring or not if it uses the standard barrel nut
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 4:45:11 PM EDT
[#33]
Whatever it does say, please do not include the term "MIL-SPEC".
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 4:46:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
<snip>


Way too subjective.  Besides, from my understanding, this project sounds like it's us telling ARFCom what questions we want asked, then ARFCom is going to forward all those questions to the manufacturers and compile the answers.
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 6:07:38 PM EDT
[#35]
What about manufacture claimed precision for their barrels or complete uppers?
Link Posted: 6/9/2011 7:03:09 PM EDT
[#36]
.

What about some of these points in addition to the ones that have already been mentioned:
FS Pin Height (BM or USGI)
Recoil Pad? (Yes/No)
FH Make (USGI, Vortex, etc.)
FH Attachment (Perm, Removable)
FH Attachment Technique (Pin, weld, solder, none, etc)
Comp Maker (Knight, BC, etc.)
Comp Attachment (Perm, Removable)
Finish Color (Black, Gray, FDE, etc.)
Action Spring (SS, CS, Pneumatic, other)
Action Length (Carbine, Mid, Inter, Rifle, etc.)
Upper/Lower Construction (Cast, Forged)
Upper Forge Marked? (Yes/No)
Upper Forge Mark (Square, Keyhole, etc.)
Upper ID’d (Yes/No)
Upper ID Markings? (BCM, Colt, etc.)
Numbered Upper T-Slots? (Yes/No)
Barrel Lands/Grooves (#)
Barrel Markings (Yes/No)
Barrel Marks (Colt, MPI, 1-7, etc.)
Bolt ID’d (Yes/No)
Bolt ID Markings (BCM, Colt, etc.)
Bolt Treatment (Testings)
Bolt Treatment Method (Each, Batch, none)
Bolt Carrier Lining (CL, Nickel, none, etc.)
Bolt Carrier ID’d? (Yes/No)
Bolt Carrier ID Markings (BCM, Colt, etc.)
Chamber ID (5.56N, .223, None, etc.)
Upper ID’d?
Trigger (straight or curved)
KNS Trigger Pins?
Trigger Guard (Aftermarket, forged, USGI, etc.)
Ambi. Mag Release? (Yes/No)
Ambi. Mag Release Maker (troy, B.A.D., etc.)
Ambi Bolt Catch? (Yes/No)
Ambi Bolt Catch Maker (Troy, B.A.D., etc.)
Stakable Castle Nut? (Yes/No)
Staked Castle Nut? (Yes/No)
Bayonet Lug? (Yes/No)
Front Gas Block? (Yes/No)
Front Gas Block Height? (Low, Receiver Rail, etc.)
Front Sight? (Yes/No)
Front Sight Type (folding, fixed, removable, etc.)
Rear Sight (Yes/No)
Rear Sight Type (folding, fixed, removable, etc.)
Grip Make (USGI, Tango, Magpul, etc.)
Charging Handle Mark? (Yes/No)
Charging Handle ID’d
Lower-USGI Mags Drop-Free (Yes/No)
Lower-Flared MagWell (Yes/No)
Lower ID’d (Yes/No)
Lower ID Markings (Colt, BCM, etc.)
Lower Fit Adjustments? (Yes/No)


I ,
do
intend to
outlast the
tiny people
inside our
car...? Mike A.

.
Link Posted: 6/10/2011 4:07:45 AM EDT
[#37]
Charging handle metal grade (6061, 7075)
Link Posted: 6/10/2011 6:01:04 AM EDT
[#38]
Thanks for doing this.  This is what a Technical discussion forum is!  Below are my humble submissions.

What lower parts kit is used?
Compatability of Part X to Part Y (Major components only)
Link Posted: 6/10/2011 6:29:12 AM EDT
[#39]
Gas port size.
Link Posted: 6/10/2011 6:35:57 AM EDT
[#40]
Handguards:

Does the barrel nut design prohibit axial rotation?
i.e. Daniel Defense rails can be installed very tightly, but can still rotate if the nut becomes loose. A Larue rail will not rotate due to the design of the mounting system.
ETA: This feature may be very subjective and hard to accurately judge.
Lowers:



Flared magwell?
Does it offer a built-in ambi bolt catch?
Does it offer detent pin capture screws?
Does it have a low of high shelf?




Does it have a tensioning screw?
Weight (just noticed you put this already)
Forged? Billet? Cast?





Does the bolt catch use a roll-pin or a proprietary screw?





Internal trigger guard? If internal, is it small of large? i.e. POF vs. Mega, Noveske, Larue, etc.
Rifle:


What is it chambered for? i.e. .223, 5.56, or .223 wylde
 
Link Posted: 6/10/2011 9:12:38 AM EDT
[#41]
Which parts are made in-house
And which one are not
Link Posted: 6/10/2011 10:09:43 AM EDT
[#42]
<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>
Link Posted: 6/10/2011 10:30:04 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
I'd like to see some info on triggers; weight, single stage or two stage, adjustable or not, etc.  A side by side comparison might help you narrow your list to two or three triggers within a few minutes.


Second triggers.

I'd even add BUIS of different manufacturers (don't know if that was added).
Link Posted: 6/10/2011 2:47:16 PM EDT
[#44]
has anyone mentioned colors available yet? this would apply more to stock and hand guards than most other items but possibly valuable.
Link Posted: 6/11/2011 6:41:38 AM EDT
[#45]
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