User Panel
Posted: 6/9/2011 7:54:03 AM EDT
I THINK WE HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH DATA POINTS. I CAN'T PROMISE ALL OF THESE WILL BE ON THE LIST, BUT WE'LL KEEP YOU POSTED. Thanks for all the help/suggestions.
Goatboy is driving the idea of creating a chart which will contain lot of information on a per-manufacturer bases. To that end, I'm taking suggestions on what important features you'd like to see tracked in this chart. Some obvious ideas include: Stocks - Manufacturer, Material, Fixed/Adjustable, Weight?, Finish, Has Storage?, MiscOptions Lower - Manufacturer, Material, Weight?, Finish, trigger group, selector, milspec, MiscOptions Rifles - Model numbers too and a breakdown of the upper, lower, barrel, gas system, what stocks/rails are compatible, etc. Please do NOT comment about how the "chart" will be managed or displayed; just take my word on it that it will be fair and equitable with every attempt made to prevent bias and incorrect information. SUMMARY OF SUGGESTIONS: Upper
Handguards
Triggers
Lowers
Complete Rifles
Miscellaneous/Common to all
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I definitely think weight and materials need to be on the chart. I'd love to see the chart set up in a way that makes it easy to compare all rifles to the 6920, the AR benchmark. So all of the features/specs that differentiate, for example, a S&W Sport from a 6920 should be included:
weight receiver materials carrier key staking(no, OK, correct) barrel material barrel treatments/lining rec ext (mil, comm) F marked fsb rifling type twist rate, etc. MSRP online/street price(preferably from site vendors, but not necessarily mentioning the vendors). ETA: fixed for ya Z, sorry. |
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Quoted: I definitely think weight and materials need to be on the chart. I'd love to see the chart set up in a way that makes it easy to compare all rifles to the 6920, the AR benchmark. So all of the features/specs that differentiate, for example, a S&W Sport from a 6920 should be included: carrier key staking(no, OK, correct), barrel material, barrel treatments/lining, rec ext (mil, comm), F marked fsb, etc. Guys: It makes it a lot easier if you put each feature on one line - it'll make it a lot easier to dig through. In your example, it would look like: carrier key staking(no, OK, correct) barrel material barrel treatments/lining rec ext (mil, comm) F marked fsb |
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I think it would be very helpful to include handguards as well as optics. I added handguards but not sure how we would compare optics as they can be very different so maybe that isn't quite as useful as I would have originally thought.
Handguards: Length Gas system compatibility (based on having standard FSB) Weight Weight including barrel nut (those that have an aftermarket barrel nut generally have a lighter one than the standard nut) Diameter of handguard tube (width) Circumference of handguard tube Free Floating? (yes, no) Sling swivel mount? (yes, no) Anti-rotation sling swivel mount? (yes, no) Barrel compatibility (all, gov't/m4, socom, hbar, lw) Aftermarket barrel nut? (yes, no) Quad rail design? (yes, no) Modular rails available? (yes, no) Continuous top rail from flat top to handguard? (yes, no) Please disregard this post if you are only intending to include factory rifles and not aftermarket parts. I may have misunderstood the purpose of this chart. |
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You did not misunderstand. This project will include rifles as well as parts. The point is a neutral and accurate chart with options to fit everyone's needs. If anyone knows the history of these efforts, our very own Troy released the first version back in 2003.
Please continue to do things in a list format like you have been, it's perfect! |
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<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>
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I'd like to see some info on triggers; weight, single stage or two stage, adjustable or not, etc. A side by side comparison might help you narrow your list to two or three triggers within a few minutes.
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Quoted: I'd like to see some info on triggers; weight, single stage or two stage, adjustable or not, etc. A side by side comparison might help you narrow your list to two or three triggers within a few minutes. Something like this? Triggers: Pull weight (in lbs) [If 2 stage, can we list both the weight of the first and second stage pull?] Stages (Single, Two) Drop in? (yes, no) Front travel (meaning from beginning of pull to firing) length (in inches) Front travel adjustable? (yes, no) Rear travel (meaning from firing to end of trigger pull) length (in inches) Rear travel adjustable? (yes, no) Reset distance (meaning from end of trigger pull to trigger reset) (in inches) Reset adjustable? (yes, no) Note: I put this together without much knowledge of how currently available triggers are adjustable. Some or all of these categories may not apply to any triggers available. |
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Quoted: The chart has been done already and a new one is coming out. Can't we all work together instead of against? Good and correct info is better than no info. Quick answer is no. Long answer is complex. This will be part of a much larger effort with a simple purpose, the collection of data by the community, for the community, without an individual having the means to control the effort. The main reason for this being pushed now is the community wanting something that is actually ACCURATE and useful. Having strong ties to companies, as well as a tool set for them, we expect greater participation. |
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<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>
IE, just list the twist rate, let the reader determine if that twist is suitable for their needs. One specific dimension I'd like to see listed for various handguards is the width and overall circumference of handguards. A couple of things on lower receivers that I'd like to see mentioned are the lowers with trigger takeup adjustments as well as how the magwell is machined and flared which effects how some magazines fit. Bolt material (Carpenter 158, 8620, 9310, etc) would be very helpful, more useful than the "HPT/MPI" hype. |
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<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>
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<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>
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<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>
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Barrel manufacture info: Are barrels button rifled, hammer forged, etc...
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<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>
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Quoted:
Barrel manufacture info: Are barrels button rifled, hammer forged, etc... Button Rifled Cut Rifled Hammer Forged Polygonal 5r number of lands? SS CMV 4150 4140 Melonite Profile Gas System Length OP's collar cut? |
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<Excess quote removed - Z>
It would be good to list whether or not the trigger is a drop in unit. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Barrel manufacture info: <snip> <snip> Chrome lined, double thick chrome SS, 410, 416, LW50, etc. Gas block journal size, 1", 1.9", etc. Straight pins, taper pins, set screw, clamp on gas blocks Receivers, billet or forged, 7075, 6061, polymer, etc. Spiral or split roll pins |
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I would be most interested in materials and testing. Things like barrel steel, bolt material, etc. Do they perform HPT and MPI individually or in batches (or do they skip it). Do they perform the testing in accordance with the TDP? This might get difficult for you. For instance they may claim to do HPT, but what do they define as "high pressure?" They may do batch testing, but how often and how big is the batch? Do they test the materials in-house themselves, or do they rely upon their suppliers to do it? These are things that interest me, but I don't know how many of them will give you that kind of information.
Its going to be a lot of work to get this compiled and to keep it updated, but I like the idea, and I applaud your effort. |
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Trigger pin/Hammer pin diameters
Front Pivot / Rear Takedown hardware and diameters.
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Quoted:
Trigger pin/Hammer pin diameters Front Pivot / Rear Takedown hardware and diameters. Older Colts are the only ones that differentiate from the standard. |
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Quoted: I think this is important. Plenty of companies claim to HPT/MPI, but what rejection criteria do they use for the MPI. MPI means nothing if your rejection criteria are lax. If they batch test, how big is the batch?I would be most interested in materials and testing. Things like barrel steel, bolt material, etc. Do they perform HPT and MPI individually or in batches (or do they skip it). Do they perform the testing in accordance with the TDP? This might get difficult for you. For instance they may claim to do HPT, but what do they define as "high pressure?" They may do batch testing, but how often and how big is the batch? Do they test the materials in-house themselves, or do they rely upon their suppliers to do it? These are things that interest me, but I don't know how many of them will give you that kind of information. Its going to be a lot of work to get this compiled and to keep it updated, but I like the idea, and I applaud your effort. Now this isn't an AR company that did this, but recently it came to light that a gun manufacturer was claiming HPT/MPI when in fact they were MPI'd first then hit with an HPT after and then sent out the door. Normally you would MPI after the HPT, so this was kinda weird and calls into question why do it at all if you are going to do it backwards? The only reason I can think of is so they can claim HPT/MPI tested... Things like that. I am far more concerned about the quality of the testing and QC procedures... |
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Ambi safety/mag release/bolt paddle (Y/N)
Bolt/BCG coating (phosphate, chrome, Fail Zero, etc.) Ships with (quantity) (brand) magazines Which flash suppressor |
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I'm not sure how we'd manage it, but a quality control value would be nice. Certain brands produce products that on paper seem great, and when you get a good one they're great, but the number of poor copies out there seems to be far too high. I'm thinking of just a rating 1-5 of the general quality control at the user level. Lots of bad examples out there would be a 1, nearly all good examples would be a 5. So a company like Hesse/Blackthorne would be 1, Noveske, LaRue, KAC... would be 5's. Obviously these are just examples. I think the key is not the overall quality of the component, for example if LaRue's flashlight mounts for some reason had a history of a significant percentage being wobbly on standard rails, or the rings being a loose fit on flashlights they should hold securely.... then despite a high quality construction and materials they would get a lower score. Please, no flames, I just made it up as an example of how an otherwise high quality product from a good company might get a lower score. Going the other way, some bargain basement company that makes a product that always performs as advertised would get a high score for that product. It might be a junky nylon sling that is so untacticool no one will admit to owning it, but every single one works properly and came with all parts, so it gets a 5 even if it scores a 1 in other categories. For example, Primary Arms, despite their branded products being fairly low end, is excellent at quality control and giving you exactly what they promise. Sometimes there are issues but they go above and beyond to correct them on those rare occasions. Sure, the product isn't on par with the premium offerings, but that isn't what we're rating with this number.
Another rating I'd be interested in is customer service. Once again, I'll use LaRue as an example. What happens when a customer calls with a legitimate issue? Are they treated fairly and the stated warranty honored in a timely fashion? Are they given service above and beyond any reasonable expectation? Are they treated like they're a pain in the butt and the company is just fixing or replacing the product to shut them up...? Companies like LaRue get a 5, companies that change their phone number weekly and publish false email addresses for customer service would get a 1. I honestly can't think of any 1's still around in the AR world offhand, but I'm sure folks can chime in with examples. To me both of these are important considerations when spending money, particularly if I'm spending it online or on a firearm related product. Unfortunately they're pretty hard to quantify without a lot of data gathering that isn't likely to happen, so maybe a general perception would suffice if gathered from a wide enough customer base. |
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How about if the handguard requires a delta ring or not if it uses the standard barrel nut
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Whatever it does say, please do not include the term "MIL-SPEC".
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Quoted:
<snip> Way too subjective. Besides, from my understanding, this project sounds like it's us telling ARFCom what questions we want asked, then ARFCom is going to forward all those questions to the manufacturers and compile the answers. |
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What about manufacture claimed precision for their barrels or complete uppers?
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What about some of these points in addition to the ones that have already been mentioned: FS Pin Height (BM or USGI) Recoil Pad? (Yes/No) FH Make (USGI, Vortex, etc.) FH Attachment (Perm, Removable) FH Attachment Technique (Pin, weld, solder, none, etc) Comp Maker (Knight, BC, etc.) Comp Attachment (Perm, Removable) Finish Color (Black, Gray, FDE, etc.) Action Spring (SS, CS, Pneumatic, other) Action Length (Carbine, Mid, Inter, Rifle, etc.) Upper/Lower Construction (Cast, Forged) Upper Forge Marked? (Yes/No) Upper Forge Mark (Square, Keyhole, etc.) Upper ID’d (Yes/No) Upper ID Markings? (BCM, Colt, etc.) Numbered Upper T-Slots? (Yes/No) Barrel Lands/Grooves (#) Barrel Markings (Yes/No) Barrel Marks (Colt, MPI, 1-7, etc.) Bolt ID’d (Yes/No) Bolt ID Markings (BCM, Colt, etc.) Bolt Treatment (Testings) Bolt Treatment Method (Each, Batch, none) Bolt Carrier Lining (CL, Nickel, none, etc.) Bolt Carrier ID’d? (Yes/No) Bolt Carrier ID Markings (BCM, Colt, etc.) Chamber ID (5.56N, .223, None, etc.) Upper ID’d? Trigger (straight or curved) KNS Trigger Pins? Trigger Guard (Aftermarket, forged, USGI, etc.) Ambi. Mag Release? (Yes/No) Ambi. Mag Release Maker (troy, B.A.D., etc.) Ambi Bolt Catch? (Yes/No) Ambi Bolt Catch Maker (Troy, B.A.D., etc.) Stakable Castle Nut? (Yes/No) Staked Castle Nut? (Yes/No) Bayonet Lug? (Yes/No) Front Gas Block? (Yes/No) Front Gas Block Height? (Low, Receiver Rail, etc.) Front Sight? (Yes/No) Front Sight Type (folding, fixed, removable, etc.) Rear Sight (Yes/No) Rear Sight Type (folding, fixed, removable, etc.) Grip Make (USGI, Tango, Magpul, etc.) Charging Handle Mark? (Yes/No) Charging Handle ID’d Lower-USGI Mags Drop-Free (Yes/No) Lower-Flared MagWell (Yes/No) Lower ID’d (Yes/No) Lower ID Markings (Colt, BCM, etc.) Lower Fit Adjustments? (Yes/No) I , do intend to outlast the tiny people inside our car...? Mike A. . |
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Thanks for doing this. This is what a Technical discussion forum is! Below are my humble submissions.
What lower parts kit is used? Compatability of Part X to Part Y (Major components only) |
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Handguards:
Does the barrel nut design prohibit axial rotation? i.e. Daniel Defense rails can be installed very tightly, but can still rotate if the nut becomes loose. A Larue rail will not rotate due to the design of the mounting system. ETA: This feature may be very subjective and hard to accurately judge. Lowers: Flared magwell? Does it offer a built-in ambi bolt catch? Does it offer detent pin capture screws? Does it have a low of high shelf? Does it have a tensioning screw? Weight (just noticed you put this already) Forged? Billet? Cast? Does the bolt catch use a roll-pin or a proprietary screw? Internal trigger guard? If internal, is it small of large? i.e. POF vs. Mega, Noveske, Larue, etc. Rifle: What is it chambered for? i.e. .223, 5.56, or .223 wylde |
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<I specifically stated that this is not about methodology and only about what info you'd like to see included - Z>
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Quoted:
I'd like to see some info on triggers; weight, single stage or two stage, adjustable or not, etc. A side by side comparison might help you narrow your list to two or three triggers within a few minutes. Second triggers. I'd even add BUIS of different manufacturers (don't know if that was added). |
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has anyone mentioned colors available yet? this would apply more to stock and hand guards than most other items but possibly valuable.
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I THINK WE HAVE
MORE THAN ENOUGH DATA POINTS. I CAN'T PROMISE ALL OF THESE WILL BE ON THE LIST, BUT WE'LL KEEP YOU POSTED. Thanks for all the help/suggestions. |
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