I you want to avoid it being a complete firearm sell it without the firing pin. Manufacturers  HAVE SOLD OFF PARTS KITS MINUS THE FIRING PIN so you don't have to pay the fet tax. FUN TIMES  

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Quoted: P.S. Cnutter thanks for doing the heavy lifting on this one I hate going through those manuals.

NP... I just deal with LE Agencies almost weekly with my job and have had them tell me that I cant do one thing and then when I goto my corporate lawyer on the subject she tells me we can and provides the US Code or GA code sections time and time again provig them wrong. Its not that they are meaning to give me or bigbore in this case the wrong information its they just dont know.  So in alot of cases they give information they think is right.  Or in bigbores case they are telling HIM as a FFL holder/Manufacturer he has to pay SOT / AND  FAET.   And by the letter of the law sence he is a FFL Dealer (and a Manufacturer?) he is required by law to pay  FAET /SOT on firearms.   Were as a private citizen selling a firearm out of his or her personal collection does not have to pay SOT if its a normal non class 3 weapon.  And he or she isnt not required to pay  FAET on that sale eather.

All someone really needs to do is in writing create a letter to the ATF that asks these questions and ask for clearification on the US code sections (Title 18 Part 1 CHapter 44)  and TITLE 27.  

Isn't a stripped lower still considered a firearm as far as the ATF is concerned? I know that you still have to go through a background check and fill out the 4473 when buying a stripped receiver from a FFL.

Quoted: Isn't a stripped lower still considered a firearm as far as the ATF is concerned?

Yes

I know that you still have to go through a background check and fill out the 4473 when buying a stripped receiver from a FFL.

You do have to fill out the proper paperwork and get the necessary background check (unless you have an CHL) when buying a stripped/fully assembled lower or complete rifle when purchasing from a business/person with an FFL. You do not have to fill out any paperwork or get a background check when buying the same lower/rifle from an private citizen in your same state.

chumpmiester,  Yes what you say is true but you missed my point about liability and based on the licensed reply above it's also illegal to sell it completed.

You did fill out the paperwork and do the background check on the stripped lower BUT if the BATF goes back to the maker or the FFL they BOTH show it as a stripped lower so someone finished it.

I think the best advice I saw from one of the posters is to sell it without the upper so you aren't selling a complete rifle.

It's just an issue you don't see discussed much on the AR side, the AK people talk about this issue a LOT.

People do as you wish with this, you will anyway and the BATF isn't actively looking for you but keep in mind any law suit or your weapon turing up in a criminal investigation, you have some SERIOUS issue to deal with.  Maybe even a trip to club fed, IS IT WORTH the RISK?

Here I will attempt to make this as clear as possible.

Is it Illegal to Sell a Rifle you have Assembled/built from a stripped lower or complete lower as a private citizen from your personnel collection?

No it is NOT Illegal to sell a rifle you have Assembled/Built on a Stripped or Complete Lower as long as your a not doing it as your main source of income or as a Licenced FFL holder.  If the rifle is a SBR you must go though a Licenced Class 3 Dealer to make the sale.

Can you do this as a Dealer/FFL Holder?  

NO, IT IS ILLEGAL TO ASSEMBLE/BUILD RIFLES unless your a licenced Manufacture. This includes putting guns togeater from kits or parts.

Are there any civil or criminal Liabilities that I might occure IF/WHEN I sell my AR15 I built from a Stripped lower I bought?

We live in sue happy country.  If the AR malfunctions and some how hurts someone.  You may be sued along with whoever made the ARs parts.  And if you sold it to a local gun store, pawn broker, etc... they may also be sued.  Keep in mind if you have installed the parts in the proper manner and you can show this in court you MAY beable to beat the the case. IF your sued get a good lawyer is the best advice.

As for criminal liabilities... again  it has been said that a DA can indict a ham sandwich when dealing with a grand jury.  So anything is possible.  IT wouldnt have anything to do with breaking the laws on making a rifle  or selling the rifle.  It would more likely have to do with criminal neglagance or something long those lines but again your defence would be you built the AR in a generaly excepted manner that a normal gunsmith or other licenced person would fallow.   Again, never defend yourself and get a good lawyer... also dont say anything untill you have spoken with your lawyer.  

Bigbore or anyone else that says you can't sell a rifle you built from parts, please quote the regulations that led you to this conclusion.

All the regs I read do make mention of manufacturing for sale. I am led to believe that a firearm assembled for personal use is not illegal to sell at a future date. Only if you are manufacturing with the "intent to sell".

The wording in the ATF regs that says you can build for personal use provided it is not for sale, has been changed recently. It used to say you could not build with the intent to sell. Am I the only one that has noticed the change in wording?

We can debate this forever but until poster back up what they say with quotes from regs, this will turn into the M16/AR15 bolt carrier argument. (Which is legal by the way)

If you look at my posts in this thread you well see all the regs posted.... with links...  Enjoy... I give up...

TANGOCHASER,  I don't think there's anything to prevent a legal sale and as I started this I mentioned it has been done as least 100,000 times or more.

The original issue I raised was the liability, so for me if I dispose of one of my ARs and I have two I'm thinking about getting rid of, I will price the upper and lower seperate but high with a reasonable deal for someone who buys both halves.

It's just like years ago when I bought a trailer, the business showed me how to lock it onto the hitch and then they unlocked it, I had to lock it for insurance reasons.  I think the same issue if you sell two halves and the buyer puts them together you are off the hook.  I know this all sounds silly and it is but for me that's just how I will do it.

I know plenty of dealers at the gunshows that either sell uppers or they sell lowers but not both parts.  I'm guessing that's the liability issue I'm raising here.  If you're going to sell a complete 100% rifle make sure you bought it that way to start with, no problem.

Quoted: TANGOCHASER,  I don't think there's anything to prevent a legal sale and as I started this I mentioned it has been done as least 100,000 times or more. The original issue I raised was the liability, so for me if I dispose of one of my ARs and I have two I'm thinking about getting rid of, I will price the upper and lower seperate but high with a reasonable deal for someone who buys both halves. It's just like years ago when I bought a trailer, the business showed me how to lock it onto the hitch and then they unlocked it, I had to lock it for insurance reasons.  I think the same issue if you sell two halves and the buyer puts them together you are off the hook.  I know this all sounds silly and it is but for me that's just how I will do it. I know plenty of dealers at the gunshows that either sell uppers or they sell lowers but not both parts.  I'm guessing that's the liability issue I'm raising here.  If you're going to sell a complete 100% rifle make sure you bought it that way to start with, no problem.

THEY don't sell them together because of tax evasion (federal excise tax )  handguns 10%    long guns and ammo  11%..

First of all, a verbal opinion via telephone from the ATF is absolutely meaningless. I've called three different ATF offices and received three different answers to the same question. If it isn't a written opinion, it means nothing.

Second, on the subject of "assembly" making a non-FFL subject to paying the excise tax for manufacturing, there is case law supporting this concept as it applies to the 1934 NFA. Check out U.S. v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505 (1992); Marshall v. U.S., 422 F.2d 185 (5th Cir. 1970).

In Thompson,the Court held that "making a rifle" included attaching a stock to a pistol. In Marshall, the 5th Circuit held that "making" a SBS included cutting down the barrel of an existing shotgun.

Now think about the difference between attaching a stock to a pistol or cutting the barrel on a shotgun. In both cases, you already have a functional firearm that has a serial number and is treated as a firearm when you bought it; but by attaching additional parts you are charged with "making" a new firearm and paying the NFA excise tax.

Anybody see any parallels with the subject at hand? I haven't found any case law on the subject; but if the ATF says that their position is that assembly is manufacturing a firearm and this is what current case law looks like, I would seriously consider that in my planning.

It seems to me that the safe & easy way to avoid this problem is to buy lowers with a fire control group already installed. This requires the manufacturer to pay the 11% excise tax - so the tax for "assembly" is no longer an issue. Also since you are buying the bare minimum of parts, you don't pay the 11% tax for the entire rifle - just the cost of a lower + FCG.

Realistically, I don't think the ATF would ever pursue these charges because they would be afraid of getting a smackdown from the Court, Congress or both. Another good line from the Thompson/Center Arms opinion at 517-518 discusses the rule of lenity and essentially says that where there are criminal penalties for a tax statute, the court will interpret ambiguity against the government. I think you can make a good argument that assembling a stripped lower for personal use and then reselling it 10 years later is ambiguous enough that you would receive the same benefit. However, I'd rather avoid having to ever argue that in a court to begin with.

I also read the earlier statutes and if they contradict this, I sure didn't see it. Everything I saw reinforced what bigbore said - if you "make" a firearm, then you have to pay the 11% excise tax unless it is only for personal use. Resale of that firearm later is not addressed anywhere in the statute that I could see - please feel free to correct me on that.

Cnutter: No it is NOT Illegal to sell a rifle you have Assembled/Built on a Stripped or Complete Lower as long as your a not doing it as your main source of income or as a Licenced FFL holder.

You and Recoil are mixing up two different issues. It is not illegal to resell an upper you built on a stripped lower; but it may be illegal to resell that rifle without paying the Federal Excise Tax and the government says that only FFLs can pay the excise tax.

I don't see anything in law or statute that would stop ATF from applying the rule that is currently used for 80% receivers to stripped lowers. If I missed something, feel free to point it out to me (though I would appreciate it if you would cite the specific portion of the law rather than the entire chapter - I just read through the entire chapter and I didn't see it, so pointing me towards that again isn't going to help unless you are more specific).

I've found exactly one case on the definition of "Manufacturer" concerning the 10% and 11% federal excise tax on pistols and longguns. The case is International Armament Corp. v. U.S., 598 F. Supp 1028 (D.C. Va. 1984). It is a district court case from Virginia and may not have much value as precedent.

In the case, Interarms had contracted with a company (who assigned that contract to Ranger) to build Walther pistols under license. Ranger actually did all of the manufacturing and paid the excise taxes before reselling the pistols exclusively to Interarms for distribution to FFLs. The IRS tried to hit Interarms for the excise tax as well and got shot down by the court who ruled that Interarms was not required to pay the excise tax.

Not much useful to this conversation except this part at 1030-1031:

(i) The term “manufacturer” includes any person who produces a taxable article from scrap, salvage, or junk material, or from new or raw material, by processing, manipulating, or changing the form of an article or by combining or assembling two or more articles .... (ii) Under certain circumstances, as where a person manufactures or produces a taxable article for another person who furnishes materials under an agreement whereby the person who furnished the materials retains title thereto and to the finished article, the person for whom the taxable article is manufactured or produced, and not the person *1031 who actually manufactures or produces it, will be considered the manufacturer. Under Treas.Reg. § 48.0-2(a)(4)(ii) two tests emerge for designation of a “manufacturer,” namely, (1) “a person manufactures or produces a taxable article for another person who furnishes materials under an agreement ” and (2) “the person who furnished the materials retains title thereto and to the finished article.” (emphasis added). FN1. The excise tax on firearms is intended to apply to the first sale by the manufacturer. Under the “first sale” rule laid out by the United States Supreme Court in Indian Motocycle Co. v. United States, 283 U.S. 570, 574, 51 S.Ct. 601, 602, 75 L.Ed. 1277 (1931), “[the excise tax] is not laid on all sales, but only on first or initial sales-those by the manufacturer, producer or importer.”

Also at 1033:

cf. Rev.Rul. 84-116, 1984-31 I.R.B. 8 (In an analogous context, a gunsmith's customer was considered the manufacturer of a rifle because the customer supplied the parts used by the gunsmith in the fabrication of the rifle.)

Important thing to take away from this in my mind is that only the first sale by the manufacturer is subject to the excise tax. Buying a lower with the fire control group installed subjects that purchase to the 10% (pistol) or 11% (rifle) federal excise tax and makes the whole problem disappear.

Again, I don't think ATF would have much luck trying to extend the excise tax to private AR15 assemblies and that is probably why they haven't tried despite the obvious potential for revenue. Having said that, paying 11% on a lower with FCG means I don't have to worry about it regardless of what ATF thinks.

Bartholomew_Roberts:

 I wasnt addressing the issue or tax in regards to the sale. I was addressing a few posters statements that It was Illiegal to sell Firearms you have  Assembled as a Individual.    The law clearly states you CAN sell firearms you have made for your personnal collection.  AS for the tax liability I really didnt adress that.


But liles1977  did post this  height=8

Small Manufacturers Exemptions Q. What was the effect of the amendment to U.S.C. 4182 regarding the 50 gun exemption from Federal Firearms and Ammunition Excise Taxes? A. As of October 1, 2005, any pistol, revolver, or firearm that was manufactured, produced or imported by a person who manufactures, produces or imports less than an aggregate of 50 such articles during the calendar year is now exempt from the tax. www.ttb.gov/firearms/faqs.shtml

he also posted this...

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Manufacturers and Producers 1. Am I a manufacturer? You are a manufacturer if you manufacture or produce a taxable article from scrap, salvage, junk material, new material, or raw material by: * processing, manipulating, or changing the form of an article; or * combining or assembling two or more articles. [Refer to 27 CFR 53.11 (definition of manufacturer)] 4. If I manufacture an article only for my personal use, am I still liable for FAET? If you manufacture a firearm for your personal use, you are not liable for FAET. (Note: this exemption does not apply to partnerships and corporations) www.ttb.gov/firearms/faqs.shtml

But liles1977  did post this  height=8

Small Manufacturers Exemptions Q. What was the effect of the amendment to U.S.C. 4182 regarding the 50 gun exemption from Federal Firearms and Ammunition Excise Taxes? A. As of October 1, 2005, any pistol, revolver, or firearm that was manufactured, produced or imported by a person who manufactures, produces or imports less than an aggregate of 50 such articles during the calendar year is now exempt from the tax. www.ttb.gov/firearms/faqs.shtml

he also posted this...

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Manufacturers and Producers 1. Am I a manufacturer? You are a manufacturer if you manufacture or produce a taxable article from scrap, salvage, junk material, new material, or raw material by: * processing, manipulating, or changing the form of an article; or * combining or assembling two or more articles. [Refer to 27 CFR 53.11 (definition of manufacturer)] 4. If I manufacture an article only for my personal use, am I still liable for FAET? If you manufacture a firearm for your personal use, you are not liable for FAET. (Note: this exemption does not apply to partnerships and corporations) www.ttb.gov/firearms/faqs.shtml

Here is what I posted also...

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TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921. Definitions(10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter. (11) The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (21) The term “engaged in the business” means— (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured; (B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured; (C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

Here is something interesting...
This is form http://www.ttb.gov/firearms/faqs.shtml

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Gunsmiths: Is a gunsmith liable for FAET? You are liable for FAET if you: • Materially change a firearm resulting in a different taxable article; • Produce custom firearms from new or used firearms that you acquire; or • Add parts to a frame, receiver, or action. You are not liable for FAET if you: • Replace, refinish, or repair existing parts of a firearm; • Refinish (by bluing or black anodizing) existing firearms; • Checker existing firearms; • Engrave or perform other types of decorative work (such as inlaying of silver and gold) on firearms you purchase and then sell or use; • Sell parts or accessories separately; or • Sell parts or accessories with a complete firearm for use as spare parts or accessories. If I perform gunsmithing, when is my customer considered the manufacturer? The gunsmith is considered the manufacturer if: He or she alters a firearm in connection with a sale to the customer (however, the gunsmith’s alteration of the firearm must constitute manufacturing). The customer is considered the manufacturer if: • The gunsmith does not sell an altered firearm to a customer; or • The gunsmith sells a firearm to the customer and makes alterations to it as separate transactions. 3. If my customer is considered the manufacturer, when is he or she liable for FAET? The customer is liable for FAET if: • He or she sells the firearm before using it; or • He or she uses the firearm in the operation of his or her business. The customer is not liable for FAET if: He or she uses the firearm for personal use after delivery from the gunsmith. ( AND WE HAVE A WINNER)

You know with all the law quoting someone should put togeather a nice clean thread were all these questions are Asked and then find  answers in the Coded sections that adress them.....

ah neer mind that sounds like alot of work.    

Based on this reg, someone who is "Not in the Business" of making a firearm "for purposes of sale or distribution" and someone who sells a firearm from a personal collection, is not a "Manufacturer" and therfore not required to pay any FET.

This goes against what bigbore stated.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921. Definitions(10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

(11) The term “dealer” means
(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

Thanks for the reply Cnutter. That FAQ looks like it addresses the issue well - thanks for digging it up and adding some information to the discussion. You cited the provision discussing gunsmithing; but under manufacturing they have this as well:

3. If I purchase an article in knockdown condition and assemble it, am I liable for FAET? If you purchase an article in knockdown condition and assemble it, your liability for FAET will depend on the following factors: the amount of labor, material, and overhead required to assemble the article; and whether you assemble the article for business or personal use. [Refer to 27 CFR 53.11 (definition of manufacturer)]

So it looks like no need to pay a FAET on an item assembled for personal use; but what happens when we resell the item? It is still subject to the excise tax since no excise tax has been paid on it previously (see under Taxes at the FAQ):

1. Am I liable for FAET? You are liable for FAET if you: Manufacture or produce an article in the 50 States of the United States or the District of Columbia ; 3. When do I become liable for FAET? You generally become liable for FAET when you transfer title of an article to a purchaser. The moment that you become liable for FAET on an article is often referred to as “attachment of tax.”

It also makes it clear that you don't have to be an FFL to pay the tax:

9. When must I file a “one-time” or “occasional” return? You must file a “one-time” or “occasional” return if you: •  Manufacture, produce, or import articles on a one-time or occasional basis; and •  Are not engaged in the business of manufacturing, producing, or importing firearms or ammunition on a regular basis. [Refer to 27 CFR 53.151(a)(5) ]

However, the key part that would apply to most of us:

Q. What was the effect of the amendment to U.S.C. 4182 regarding the 50 gun exemption from Federal Firearms and Ammunition Excise Taxes? A. As of October 1, 2005, any pistol, revolver, or firearm that was manufactured, produced or imported by a person who manufactures, produces or imports less than an aggregate of 50 such articles during the calendar year is now exempt from the tax.

So unless you sold 50 rifles that were assembled from stripped lowers in one year, no need to worry about the excise tax.

Quoted: Based on this reg, someone who is "Not in the Business" of making a firearm "for purposes of sale or distribution" and someone who sells a firearm from a personal collection, is not a "Manufacturer" and therfore not required to pay any FET.

You are quoting from the criminal code (Title 18) though and this is a tax code (Title 26) issue, so the definition under the tax code would be the controlling one. You didn't think the Government would do something so common-sense as to define "manufacturer" the same way throughout the various regulations did you?

Anyway, check out the TTB FAQ that Cnutter posted. It looks like reselling a stripped lower assembled for personal use would make you a manufacturer under the tax code; but since there is an exemption for less than 50 firearms per year, the chances that most of us would be subject to paying the tax are about 0.

Quoted: Second, on the subject of "assembly" making a non-FFL subject to paying the excise tax for manufacturing, there is case law supporting this concept as it applies to the 1934 NFA. Check out U.S. v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505 (1992); Marshall v. U.S., 422 F.2d 185 (5th Cir. 1970). In Thompson,the Court held that "making a rifle" included attaching a stock to a pistol. In Marshall, the 5th Circuit held that "making" a SBS included cutting down the barrel of an existing shotgun. Now think about the difference between attaching a stock to a pistol or cutting the barrel on a shotgun. In both cases, you already have a functional firearm that has a serial number and is treated as a firearm when you bought it; but by attaching additional parts you are charged with "making" a new firearm and paying the NFA excise tax. It seems to me that the safe & easy way to avoid this problem is to buy lowers with a fire control group already installed. This requires the manufacturer to pay the 11% excise tax - so the tax for "assembly" is no longer an issue. Also since you are buying the bare minimum of parts, you don't pay the 11% tax for the entire rifle - just the cost of a lower + FCG.

BR, you are the one who is confusing tax issues.  The Thompson case is about the making of NFA weapons.  So yes, you are the "maker" via an ATF Form 1 if you cut off the barrel of a shotgun to make an SBS.  And you are also the "maker" if you add a stock to a pistol making it a Short barreled rifle.  You are aslo the "maker" if you want to attach a short upper to an AR 15 lower receiver.  In these cases, there is no excise tax.  There is however the $200 tax for a tax stamp.  It has nothing to do with excise tax an actual manufacturer pays.

Also, when you buy a stripped lower, the excise tax has been paid on the value of that serialized firearm.  The tax is on $80 instead of $800.  I don't think any manufacturer makes and sells a serialized part that is considered the firearm by law, and doesn't pay the excise tax.  The fact that it has a FCG installed when it leaves the factory or stripped is irrelevant.  The tax may be higher on a lower with more parts because however it leaves the factory the excise tax is based on that value.  The conmplete rifle being the most tax paid.

What the OP brought up about strict liability is a valid point only because you can sue for anything.  But all the rest of the stuff about tax evasion etc is just not true.  Because if it were, and the .gov thought they could get people for it, they would.  Speaking of individuals now, not licensed mfg who make guns for a living.

Bottom line, the excise tax is paid by the mfg of the stripped receiver.  You don't owe because you assembled the rifle.  And you don't owe because you sell it 1 year or 10 years later.  

The only firearms I've ever "made" are accompanied by a Form 1 and stamp.  Which won't be sold while I am alive.

Everything else was manufactured by someone else.  Including stripped lowers in which I may, or may not, have installed a Colt/Bushmaster/RRA manufactured parts kit.

I do not engage in the manufacturing of firearms as a primary business.  My professional pursuits do not, nor have they ever, included selling firearms.  I have never purchased, or pieced together a kit, with the sole intention of selling it.  

I do, from time to time, sell off personal pieces of my collection to leverage them for acquisition of "better" items.  This is usually done at a loss as compared to the original basis cost.

Therefore, in no uncertain terms, could I ever be construed as a manufacturer, maker or seller of firearms under the letter of the law.  My involvement in firearms is strictly for defense, entertainment and collection purposes.

Gaspipes, all of this is pretty much pointless since we have already determined that the less than 50 firearms exemption applies and few of us will be selling 50 rifles built from stripped lowers and not be "engaged in the business of selling firearms"; but just to make a few points.

Quoted: BR, you are the one who is confusing tax issues.  The Thompson case is about the making of NFA weapons.  So yes, you are the "maker" via an ATF Form 1 if you cut off the barrel of a shotgun to make an SBS.  And you are also the "maker" if you add a stock to a pistol making it a Short barreled rifle.  You are aslo the "maker" if you want to attach a short upper to an AR 15 lower receiver.  In these cases, there is no excise tax. There is however the $200 tax for a tax stamp.  It has nothing to do with excise tax an actual manufacturer pays.

Read the cases. Excise tax is the precise word they use. It is a different excise tax; but still an excise tax.

Also, when you buy a stripped lower, the excise tax has been paid on the value of that serialized firearm.

No, not according to the ATF FAQ.

FAET does not apply to:

Individual parts of firearms such as :

Frames
Receivers
Barrels
Magazines
Sights
[Refer to 27 CFR 53.61(b)(5)(ii) ]

Bottom line, the excise tax is paid by the mfg of the stripped receiver.  You don't owe because you assembled the rifle.  And you don't owe because you sell it 1 year or 10 years later.

If that is the case, then why is a gunsmith who adds parts to a frame, receiver or action subject to excise tax liability? If the ATF applied the same logic to private use, then I might be wrong about my guess that the FAET didn't apply if you paid the excise tax on a partially built lower.

My interpretation of the law based on the ATF FAQ and regs cited would be that without the exemption for less than 50 firearms, the IRS would expect private sellers selling a rifle based on a stripped lower to pay the excise tax on that rifle. If you know of relevant law saying otherwise, please show it to me. I always appreciate learning where I am wrong on a point of law. If you don't have any law to support your opinion, then thanks for the comments; but I really don't care what your gut feeling is on the issue.

Ok  I read through § 53.61   Imposition and rates of tax.

Perhaps one of the actual manufacturers who participate in this forum like Steve at RRA or one of the others could clear this up.

It talks about imposing the tax on Pistols, revolvers, firearms(other than pistols and revolvers) and shells and cartridges.

Then it talks about certain components that in general are exempt and lists frames and receivers...etc....

So the question in my mind is the receiver a firearm, or a component part?  How can it be both and applied one way for tax purposes and the other way when you buy and sell it.

Under the gunsmith section:

If my customer is considered the manufacturer, when is he or she liable for FAET?

The customer is liable for FAET if:

He or she sells the firearm before using it; or
He or she uses the firearm in the operation of his or her business.

Also under the FAQ:

4. If I manufacture an article only for my personal use, am I still liable for FAET?

If you manufacture a firearm for your personal use, you are not liable for FAET. (Note: this exemption does not apply to partnerships and corporations)

It would seem if you use it and sell it later it was still for personal use and you are still not liable for the FAET.  Because the only way to pay the tax is if you are a licensed mfg.

More contradicting, bullshit laws brought to you the BATFE.

I'm with the others who interpret that the FET is only meant for those in the business of manufacturing firearms to resell for a profit.

Its all been covered.  Ill boil it down again for everyone.

1) A person who builds a Rifle or Pistol that is not a Class 3 weapon as ZERO tax owed as long as he or she is making it for personal use. IE He or She does not have to pay FEAT.  IF a person makes a class 3 weapon. IE SBR, AOW or Suppressor the must pay the NFA SOT tax of $200 or $5 for the AOW and do the proper paper work with the ATF. You can not build a Machine gun anymore. FEAT Is not owned on the SBR, Suppressor or AOW If it is made for personnnel use.   IF you make a weapon not for personnel use be it a Rifle, Pistol etc... or a class 3 you can get in trouble and you will owe FEAT and or SOT and or get charged for not having the proper FFL.

2) A Dealer, Manufacturer, PawnBroker or Gun Smith must pay FEAT and or SOT if he or she makes a firearm.   They must also have the proper licence for manufacturing in most cases... all be it there is a 50 gun small manufactures exemption.

3) If you still dont get it get a lawyer to explain it to you or write a letter to the ATF.  

Quoted: Just keep all your ARs and dont worrie bout it

My policy exactly.  I buy guns; I rarely sell any, except as a trade in.  

So I guess the correct thing to do if you ever have/need to sell an AR you assembled is to sell the upper and lower separately.  Would that suffice as cover your butt?

I think it boils down to the terminology of "manufactured for sale". An individual can manufactuer a firearm if it is not for sale and not be subject to the FET, but the reg does not go far enough and needs to address whether that individual can or can not ever sell that firearm.

If the ATF is interpreting a home builder who sells his firearm is subject to FET if he sells it, then there needs to be a provision in the tax laws that allow an unlicensed manufacturer to actually pay the tax.

Problem solved. The gov't gets their tax money, the home builder sells a gun in compliance with all laws and there is actually a record of that firearm in existance that ATF can access for investigative puposes (if that is their intent).

Bigbore, does this pass the common sense test?

Quoted: IMO, selling a rifle that was assembled without having a manufacturing license (indvidual or dealer) is opening a BIG door to invite the ATF into your life.

If that is the bottom line then I guess, as someone else mentioned, we will just have to sell an incomplete firearm.  Either sell the lower and upper seperately or sell both together minus the firing pin or BCG to comply with the law.

The other workaround is to only purchase complete lowers for your builds.

Quoted: Only need to worry until 2009.  Then the "New" assault weapons ban will have been signed by either Rudy or Hitlery and you will not be able to sell ANY semi-auto without going through a dealer.  Then the dealer will be required to report to the ATF that you are attempting to sell an Assault Weapon YOU Built!  Clinkity clank and your worrys are over, just sit in the cell and be fed like a rat.  It's shelved in committee right now but it's coming guys(sad)....................Mike  P.S. sorry I just had to vent.

Yer assuming that we'll first be able to have (keep) "assault weapons," and then that we won't just have a federal registration/ban like Kalifornia, where there are not transfers. See, problem solved.

Ok, so let me get this straight.  

1.  If a regular joe were to do this, selling a lower into which you installed a lower parts kit is fine.  You cannot, however, sell the lower and the upper together since that is a firearm.  

2.  An average joe can sell the upper and the lower seperately with two seperate bills of sale at two seperate times and you are ok.

How about a buy my lower and get an upper free sale?  

The senselessness of this topic is actually making topics about 922r compliance look sensible.

This is not a problem I have to worry about, since I don't plan to sell anything that I have built.  I have 2 Gov't model clones, and 2 AR15 clones.  

A possible solution that no one has discussed, (as I recall), is to give the firearm away.  This could occur either as a gift, or as an inheritance.  Since the excise tax is a per centage of the price of the firearm, and 11% of zero is zero, the excise tax has been paid, and the recipient is free to sell the now used firearm.

Though, another solution would be to simply consider that the excise tax is owed on newly manufactured or imported firearms.  A personally manufactured firearm, which is then used for personal purposes by the manufacturer, becomes a used firearm, which may then be legally transferred.

I think Shakespeare had it right all along.

OMFG, this makes my brain hurt.

No one's getting my lower away from me anyway, it's regimentally engraved.