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Posted: 12/8/2006 7:38:01 PM EDT
I talked the Geoff Herring at ARES Defense Friday to discuss his up coming rail system for tthe GSR 35 and he told me it will be a free floater, mil spec pic rail and will line up with a standard M4 uppers rail. I have been wanting to try the ARES GSR piston kit since I first heard about it. I liked the idea of being able to "pistonize" the upper I chose instead of having to choose from the options offered by manufacturers. Freedom to be creative and all that. People said "VaporWare" and all that but yet here they are, and they work. In this little thread I will show you the kit and how it installs and a finished rifle of mine.  The kit includes the piston system, bolt carrier, specially modified M4 handguards, a beautiful bolt carrier and a nice set of instructions. The ARES GSR bolt carrier.  LMT 10.5" upper before removal of the gas tube.  I decided to test my kit on a brand new LMT 10.5" upper as I figured a 10 incher would be a real test of reliablity and I also wanted to see the effect on the cyclic rate of fire on full autol  I only had to remove the factory gas tube and I was ready to begin the install. Here is the GRS bolt carrier and the bolt stripped of its gas rings and ready for an extractor upgrade consisting of a CS extractor spring, black bumper and Crane O ring. I used a CMT MP tested bolt for my build.  Here is the spigot going in place. A small spring is inserted into the front sight base ahead of the spigot. You then align the hole in the spigot with the hole in front sight and then install the provided roll pin. You now have the first major part of the system installed.   There is a steel bushing that inserts into the gas tube hole in the upper reciever from the inside of the uppers. Nothing to it just push it into place. Its purpose it to guide the sytems operating rod and prevent wear on the aluminum upper.  I then inserted the op rod and spring. I then pullled them rearwards and installed the rest of the inline system. Here is a top view of the finished GSR35 kit installed.  Side view of the installed GSR 35  I installed a Surefire silencer adaptor for a FA556K shorty silencer. Here is a side view pic of the rifle with the handguard off and the can detached.  A picture with the top handguard removed and the Surefire silencer installed.  A pic of the rifle without and silencer and one pic of the rifle with the silencer attached.   In summary this is a piston kit that anyone who can change a gas tube can install themselves at home with a roll pin punch and a hammer being the only required tools. Mine ran fine in semi auto with either a standard buffer, H buffer or H2. Full auto preferred the H2. You rifle may be different and like one of the buffers better than another. The cyclic rate of fire was much reduced from a direct impingment gas system in this barrel length and mine ran a very comfortable 750 rounds per minute without the silencer and around 790 to 800 with the silencer attached. Gas in the face was much reduced both without and the can and the gases absence with the can attached was very noticeable. This kit is very high quality, reliable and gives the home builder the opportunity to convert his existing upper to a piston system easily and economically. If you want to change your upper back to gas you just punch out the roll pin and remove the kit as easily as you installed it and you can move it to another upper. Now with a Rail System I have been thinking of rails systems that might work, with mods of course, that would allow mounting flash light, vertical grips etc, and also meet the criteria of being easily removable to allow occassional servicing and inspection of the system. In a minor flash of inspiration I dug out a Surefire M73, not a floater but who cares on a shorty M16 and we went to work on one tonite. It was actually quite simple to get done. I will briefly take ya thru what we did. Step 1. We took a lot of measurement and found at the largest part the diameter of the system was .470. We decided to make the cut in the inside of the top rail with a .500 ball end mill. The top of the rail system as milled and test fitted a few times until we had the necessary clearence for the piston to move freely. Pic of the inside of the M73 after milling the clearence cut.  Here is a top view of the M73 after milling. Yes, the material removed made the system visible thru the rail but there is plenty of meat left and I looks cool too. If aesthics drive you to it you can just put ladder on the top of the rail.  Front view of the M73 after finished milling. Pleny of meat left.  Side view of the upper with the M73 in place.  Top view of the rail system installed.  A picture of the rifle with the M73 rail installed over the GSR 35 piston system.  I don't have a MI rail but if I had one I would try the same procedure. Now I have a piston upper that will accept any accessories I would wish to place on it. We can do this Mod in the shop for a nominal fee if you so desire. This is not a floater so it is maybe not the ultimate solution, but in the short term it met my criteria as outlined above. With very basic machining skill you can do this yourself. I give this kit a big thumbs up.  I call this rifle "The Li'l Bastid"  LINK TO ARES DEFENSE FULL AUTO VIDEO LINK TO ARES DEFENSE G-35 GAS PISTON KITS |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 7:58:14 PM EDT
[#1]
The question I've always had with these is handguard compatibility. Can KAC units or other rail-type hadguards be modded to fit over the piston assembly.
I'd just hate to have to trade out a KAC unit for the pisotn conversion... |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 7:58:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Denny, are you going to have these kits avail.? I definitely like the "drop in" piston kit.
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:02:33 PM EDT
[#3]
Nope. ARES has a rail system in the works. An existing rail could be milled out to accomodate the increased height of the system but you would still need a way to get to the system for an occasional cleaning. D. |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:03:14 PM EDT
[#4]
A limited number are in stock now and on my website. Denny |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:06:46 PM EDT
[#5]
i would also like to know what rail systems could be used with this.
also could this be used with a low profile gas block? |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:09:09 PM EDT
[#6]
how often would it need to be taken offf for cleaning,
surpressed vs unsurpressed on a 10.5, |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:11:46 PM EDT
[#7]
A low profile gas block would work just fine. As to rails a Predator or an ARMs could be made to clear the piston end and maybe a Vltor, that clamshell one. I don't know the name of it as it would allow access to the piston system. It is not so much a clearence issue as we could mill out any rail in front to clear the system. It is the ability to get to the system for cleaning that is the issue. Be patient. ARES has a system coming. Denny |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:12:23 PM EDT
[#8]
hey dennys,
do you know if you need to have a standard FSB and handguard end cap for this to work properly? I've got a Troy MRF MX with a low profile gas block. |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:15:32 PM EDT
[#9]
I shot over 6,000 round thru my POF system and never cleaned it and now have in excess of 5,000 rounds on my LW with no cleaning either. The ARES will be the same deal, but eventually everything mechanical needs a douche. You could just punch the taper pins and remove the system from the front. I have no real problem with the M4 handguards for now. The ARES rail system will be along.  Denny |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:19:09 PM EDT
[#10]
cool, ill have to keep my out for it, thanks for the info
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:20:28 PM EDT
[#11]
same kit/carrier for both semi and full ?
thanks |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:21:08 PM EDT
[#12]
I need some time to work with the sytem and check some stuff out. I have some ideas. A low pro gas block will work fine. I am thinking of checking out a Troy mounted upside down in conjunction with a lo profile gas block when I get some time to fool with it. Remember we need something removable like the Grenadier rail with a removable top rail to get to the system. For now let's just be damn happy we have a piston system that works, is real and we can install it ourselves. Denny |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:24:28 PM EDT
[#13]
interesting. so in theory a person could put this on whatever length weapon they wanted since the length of the op-rod would be the only thing different. thinking a middy might be just right..
these are a bit pricey though. |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:27:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Pricey is just a state of mind with BRD Actually, think of all you are getting with this kit. There are some parts that are not cheap to make. Look at the darn bolt carrier alone. There will be middy and rifle length models coming after SHOT. I can't wait to get one on my personal Operator barreled upper.  Denny |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:29:41 PM EDT
[#15]
No they offer a semi version, but when I ordered the ones for inventory I got all full autos. They are legal in everything so why mess with the semi carriers? I don't even know why anyone would want the semi carrier. Denny |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:39:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Denny, thanks for the write-up. I had read in other places about how piston uppers require precise factory this and that--and how you there's no way you could convert your upper unless it's inspected and certified, sent to the factory, close tolerances, etc. How do you balance those comments with this kit which seems to fly in the face of all that?
I guess my question would be: if someone wants to go with a piston upper, is there any reason why they shouldn't get this kit over other offerings which you've also tested? |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:43:28 PM EDT
[#17]
The Grenadier Precision railed handguard should work with this.
With Darren and Jesse joining forces with LW, I don't know if these are available seperately anymore, but it's an option. |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:45:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Did I miss the price somewhere,Denny?
Clint |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:49:27 PM EDT
[#19]
true, very true. its really pretty reasonable when you break it down. i guess i'm saying pricey because i can't get it right now. spent my fun money on a new knife so i must build up the funds yet again. BRD is bad but having BRD AND INFI lust at the same time....its rough. |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:52:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Actually POF has never made those kind of claims. Only Paul Leitner-Wise did and we know the rest of that story. Darren and Jesse are stand up. This kit is the best way to go if ya already have an upper. Why send it off for however long when you can get a kit and do it yourself in about 20 or 30 minutes, including reading the instructions and familiarizing yourself with the parts. Denny |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:54:22 PM EDT
[#21]
Sorry, I guess that is part of the spec $399 shipped Priority Mail.D. |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 8:55:39 PM EDT
[#22]
Well at least it keep ya out of titty bars. Denny |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 9:30:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Will this system fit an HBAR or SOCCOM profile barrel?and does the bushing stay in place?is it a snug fit?and if so how do you pop it back out?..TIA Denny....Dave.I want one but I have a 14.5 HBAR and a SOCCOM profile wich is like the HBAR except the flats for the M203 and the outer barrel notch.
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Posted: 12/8/2006 10:17:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Denny -- do you think you could put one in a Vltor monlithic upper?
Hmm I just got an idea for a build -- email inbound. |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 10:30:24 PM EDT
[#25]
vely interesting |
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Posted: 12/8/2006 11:43:03 PM EDT
[#26]
I don't think there is enough room under there. The piston cup is much wider than a low profile gas block that the forend was designed to clear. |
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Posted: 12/9/2006 12:38:40 AM EDT
[#27]
Roger that
I wonder about a URX?
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Posted: 12/9/2006 4:01:06 AM EDT
[#28]
Very cool! I had to send my upper away to L-W for piston conversion. They modified my upper at the FSB. This system looks much better. Thanks for the writeup!
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Posted: 12/9/2006 4:10:12 AM EDT
[#29]
Very interesting. I may have to get one. I would be reluctant to use any gas block that doesn't use taper pins or some other kind of cross pin. I'm afraid the gas block will loosen with set screws with all that pounding. Maybe my concerns are not warranted. What say you Denny being that you actually have experience with this product?
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Posted: 12/9/2006 4:43:02 AM EDT
[#30]
will this sytem work with "carbine" profile handguards (Fobus, Bushmaster, etc) or will it only work with M4 profile handguards? it looks like there is room for it to fit, and if they are making a rifle length system in the future, I assume they make it compatible with the skinnier handguards.....just wanting to make sure.
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Posted: 12/9/2006 4:50:30 AM EDT
[#31]
I the system has to use M4 handguards due to clearance issues. As to the rifle system I don't have the answer to that one yet. Denny |
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Posted: 12/9/2006 4:53:59 AM EDT
[#32]
I haven't tried one yet. I do know that when red locktite is used on the gasblock and its attendant set screws a torch and a hammer or even our 5 ton press is required to remove the gas block. Conjecture here, but I would be more comfortable with a cross pinned block ala Noveske, but the locktited one may work just fine. Denny |
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Posted: 12/9/2006 5:09:57 AM EDT
[#33]
Denny glad to hear you've had good experiences with this system. Last year, we got a couple of these to T&E. After about 200 rds on full auto, the roll pin flew out from the force exerted on the roll pin. That's the only draw back of this otherwise fine, high quality drop-in piston system.
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Posted: 12/9/2006 5:24:17 AM EDT
[#34]
I plan on keeping an eye on the roll pin and check it from time to time. If it shows signs of bending I will replace it with a solid steel pin This system has a small but stout spring that goes into the gas block before the spigot is installed perhaps it was included to solve the problem you experienced. Denny |
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Posted: 12/9/2006 5:46:05 AM EDT
[#35]
I messed up thinking I could install one of these on my RRA HBAR upper, the spigot will not fit with the fat barrel behind the gas block. Your best bet is to go with a M4 conture and have no worries or something that does not exceed the .875" barrel diameter behind the gas block. I went ahead an ordered a LMT 16" M4 profile upper from legal transfer and installed this kit on her with out any problems.  |
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Posted: 12/9/2006 5:47:32 AM EDT
[#36]
You guys don't go to titty bars  !!! Thats got to be un-American or something This does look like a nice kit. Only down side seems to be it's lack of compatibilty with most rail systems. It's also remains to be seen how well these kits will hold up in the long term and also what the long term effect will be on the upper and FSB? A year or so ago I would have bought one of these kits in a heart beat (PLW had me pretty brainwashed) but now, I'm just not as convinced about the need or usefulness? If I had a full auto and or a suppressor, I might be more interested but with a semi only non-supressed AR, the benefit vs. cost doesn't seem to be there. I assume it's not a lot but how much weight does this kit add to the upper? |
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Posted: 12/9/2006 6:06:28 AM EDT
[#37]
Very interesting. Starting a new mega build and was thinking of doing a SSP. How does this compare costwise to a LW conversion??
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Posted: 12/9/2006 6:27:13 AM EDT
[#38]
thanks meat
Hey Meat I just called Bushmaster they said their barrels on HBARs is .850 at that point so the ARES system should fit on a Bushmaster or SOCCOM barrel,measured my SOCCOM at that point and its the same.850
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Posted: 12/9/2006 9:31:46 AM EDT
[#39]
You could have also sent me the barrel and the spigot to re-profile that little section just behind the FSB. It's a $25 job for anyone else that might need it done. |
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Posted: 12/9/2006 9:35:46 AM EDT
[#40]
Bingo. That's what I'm talking about. Then add in the potential for vertical stringing that you get with putting the thrust on the barrel. The Direct Impingement system removes ALL thrust from the barrel and moves it inside the bolt carrier, hence there is more accuracy potential with DI guns. |
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Posted: 12/9/2006 9:52:03 AM EDT
[#41]
To AR15Barrels...thats good to know that you can do that if I have troublke with barrel thickness
im getting one of these
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Posted: 12/9/2006 9:56:57 AM EDT
[#42]
Very interesting, thanks for sharing info and pics on the GSR 35!
I'm still on the fence about gas piston systems so it's good to see these things up close. You need to do an accuracy test, before and after the GSR35 to see how the gun was affected.
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Posted: 12/9/2006 10:08:03 AM EDT
[#43]
The advantage im looking for is cleaner running,no pressure in carrier or bolt and no heat wich means longer lasting parts from less stress.And elimination of a weak part...gas rings on the bolt.As long as the bolt locks up good to the extension in the barrel I think accuracy will be fine..I think recoil impulse will change though depending on the buffer used.I dont think ill be able to run 9mm buffers with this system..but well see.
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Posted: 12/9/2006 10:27:00 AM EDT
[#44]
OST (Old School Tag)
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Posted: 12/9/2006 10:38:26 AM EDT
[#45]
Agreed. I have no problem with someone buying one of these, but having never had a reliability problem with any of my AR rifles, not something I will be buying. Also one of the keys to the AR's bolt gun like accuracy is no reciprocating mass moving along side the barrel. Also, AR15 Barrels, IM on the way 
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Posted: 12/9/2006 10:43:32 AM EDT
[#46]
It's kinda like this... There are two kinds of barrels out there, Utility and Match. Each have their own purpose. Utility barrels are chrome lined, last a long time, not really accurate. These are blaster barrels. You shoot blaster barrels standing up with a dot sight. You shoot surplus quality ammo. Match barrels are not chrome lined, don't last a long time, but are really accurate. These are precision barrels. You shoot these with magnified optics from a bench or a steady rest. You handload or use premium quality match ammo. Putting on a piston system is not going to hurt the accuracy much on a chrome lined utility barrel because it has less accuracy to start with. You would not put a piston on a Match barrel because you would be defeating the purpose of the barrel. Using this guide, the accuracy will indeed be "fine" in your chrome lined blaster. If you fancy yourself as a match barrel user, you might consider looking closer at what's going on in the piston system. Ask yourself this simple question of EACH operating system: Are there any forces on the barrel during the bullet's travel down the bore? Decide for yourself. |
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Posted: 12/9/2006 10:51:34 AM EDT
[#47]
Randall, I agree completely. But IMHO the piston set up will be a perfect mate for a 10.5" SBR that also used with a suppressor. It will keep the heat and crud out of the BCG, well that is the theory any way. As far as using these piston systems on 16" barrelled rifles, and more precision guns, I think it is not necessary. |
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Posted: 12/9/2006 10:52:49 AM EDT
[#48]
Any idea when a piston kit for a AR-10 will be on the market? ( I'm going nuts for one).
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Posted: 12/9/2006 11:07:11 AM EDT
[#49]
That's EXACTLY where the piston will be great. Short barreled chrome lined blaster SBR wearing a can. The reduction of cyclic rate in full-auto and gas blowback in your face are GREAT benefits of a piston system. For the guys without a can shooting semi-auto, there is just not much benefit to be gained though. Most here will not admit to only shooting semi-auto through 16" barrels because it makes them less HSLD... I spent an hour on the phone with Denny last night talking about all manner of things and a little bit about this thread. |
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Posted: 12/9/2006 11:13:28 AM EDT
[#50]
Great minds, think alike.
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