To DAVEA,yes in a full size rifle pressure curves are diferent from a carbine wich runs faster,hotter and under more pressure because of the shorter gas system.Carbines take a pounding compared to a 20"rifle.ARs are more closed in and have a dust cover so when I mean AK tough I mean being able to function if not lubed.AKs are looser tolerances yes and its a more open design so looser is better especialy with a .30 caliber rifle.Even though an AR has tighter tolerances with a piston driven system unless that gets all crudded out its gonna work.

ARs work lubed even in a dusty or sandy environment so add a piston system to that eqation and tes you get AK reliabilty...but like I said its more closed off to dirt and mud than an AK is.Actualy the bolt takes less stress in a piston design...for a piston the impact on the carrier is a bit sharper so yes there is still stress on the lugs but on direct gas the lugs and the bolt body experience high pressure as gas goes into the carrier as well.wich is why you will see a bolt at times crack at the cam pin hole.Id rather have pressure on the lugs than the whole bolt..at least if a lug breaks it will still function.

Did PLW get hired on at ARES?

Quoted: Did PLW get hired on at ARES?

Booyah!

400 to solve a problem that really doenst exist and add more small parts to break?  Sounds like a sweet deal!

Quoted: 400 to solve a problem that really doenst exist and add more small parts to break?  Sounds like a sweet deal!

I wouldn't say a problem that really doesn't exist.... because with carbines, gas problems do exist. I think I may have to get one of these for my 10" SBR build that's coming up quick.  

On the flip side, wonder how one of these would stand up to a triple beta mag dump. Most gas tubes droop or blow

Anyone else order one? It'll be interesting to see if they are actually ready to ship these out in mass quantity.

Got mine on Thursday. It appears well made. Put it on today at my friend's shop. It is indeed a true "drop-in" system. It took about 15 minutes and all the parts fit just fine (no carrier fitting problems like the other guy in this thread who had trouble and used a mallet to get it into the upper). Although my friend's shop is in the county and not in city limits there are houses around so I only fired 3 rounds into the ground to function test it real quick. Worked fine; no problems so far. I intend to put more downrange tomorrow.

If this system remains reliable---and I already know it's truly drop-in---I can see some serious competition with POF and Leitner-Wise. I had a POF and sold it (worked fine but I didn't like the weight) and still have a LW (which I like). But the $436 total I paid for this Ares system, including shipping and PayPal fee, is cheaper than either POF or LW. And you don't have to send your rifle off for weeks or wait on a list. These Ares systems are indeed out there, unlike the Shrike. The guy I got mine from is getting 20 more sets by the end of the month. The few he had left when I got mine are gone now. I believe a few ARFCOMMERs bought them up when word got out that they were available.

Admittedly I'm a piston fan. But this thing MAY be the ticket for those wanting to "test the waters" without dropping $1K or waiting for months. And of course there are no permanent alterations to the weapon so it can be changed back. But I don't think I'll be doing that though......

BTW, I put mine on my Bushy Superlight so it still is a pretty damn light carbine. The weight is not noticeable.      

Well Sey Doo, don't you feel foolish and nice a real newbie with that BS flag?  

what rail systems (if any) will it fit under?

Scott

And what length gas systems do they offer it for?

Anyone threaded up a suppressor yet?  If so what was the cyclic rate increase?  

Will any of the two piece, non-FF rails like the KAC RAS, Samson, Surefire or MI fit over the piston?

I also wonder if the Grenadier Precision FF rails will fit over the GSR35?

Quoted: And what length gas systems do they offer it for?

On the box it says the following (and I quote):

__Model A: 14.5"-16" barrel

__Model B: 10"-12.5" barrel

__Semi Auto     __Full Auto

Quoted: To DAVEA,yes in a full size rifle pressure curves are diferent from a carbine wich runs faster,hotter and under more pressure because of the shorter gas system.Carbines take a pounding compared to a 20"rifle.ARs are more closed in and have a dust cover so when I mean AK tough I mean being able to function if not lubed.AKs are looser tolerances yes and its a more open design so looser is better especialy with a .30 caliber rifle.Even though an AR has tighter tolerances with a piston driven system unless that gets all crudded out its gonna work. ARs work lubed even in a dusty or sandy environment so add a piston system to that eqation and tes you get AK reliabilty...but like I said its more closed off to dirt and mud than an AK is.Actualy the bolt takes less stress in a piston design...for a piston the impact on the carrier is a bit sharper so yes there is still stress on the lugs but on direct gas the lugs and the bolt body experience high pressure as gas goes into the carrier as well.wich is why you will see a bolt at times crack at the cam pin hole.Id rather have pressure on the lugs than the whole bolt..at least if a lug breaks it will still function.

Ok...

1) Looser is NEVER better with rifles... For a SMG or PDW (high volume, full auto fire) you can make the case... But a rifle is a precision instrument, designed primarily for aimed semiauto fire (at least from a US military perspective)...

2) 'AK reliability' is a legend that really isn't working out too well in Iraq right now - folks who work with the local police & army seem to have plenty of stories about the 'problems' the locals have with their rifles jamming due to poor maintanance - sound familliar?

3) For all the bitching about the M16 having problems, it seems that most of them are due to neglect - not just poor cleaning, but poor upkeep/maintanance. If you let a machine get worn out (and let me tell you, there are units in the service who most definately DO let their weapons get worn out), and you don't keep it clean it will jam up...

4) Your piston system does NOTHING to correct any of the following issues: wear & tear, poor cleaning, and FOREIGN OBJECT DEBRIS.

Those 3 are what actually cause JAMS, not 'Carbon in the upper reciever"...

I work with US Army M16s every day... A whole 200+ of them... Let's just say I've seen no evidence that we need to fuck up the M16 action with a piston...

We (the Army) need to (a) properly maintain (eg replace worn out parts) our weapons, and (b) make sure soldiers clean them properly...

Recreational shooters who have trouble with M16/AR15 reliability should look into (a) how they clean their weapons, and (b) weather your parts are in-spec... This advice, of course, doesn't apply to oddball configurations the system was never meant to support (such as super-short barrels) - in which case you should do whatever it takes to make it work (and since such a short barrel isn't going to provide long range accuracy anyways, who cares if the piston adds felt recoil and decreases inherant accuracy)....

Although it does amaze me how people will talk about needing a gas piston for 'reliability if SHTF', then mount a barrel so short that there's no terminal effect left other than a .223 hole.... Of course, as a recreational shooter sofar as my personal weapons are concerned (If 'SHTF' or whatever, I will (a) be at work, and (b) be carrying my Army issue weapon), I could care less about either, but it does seem a littlle backwards....

height=8

Ok... 1) Looser is NEVER better with rifles... For a SMG or PDW (high volume, full auto fire) you can make the case... But a rifle is a precision instrument, designed primarily for aimed semiauto fire (at least from a US military perspective)... 2) 'AK reliability' is a legend that really isn't working out too well in Iraq right now - folks who work with the local police & army seem to have plenty of stories about the 'problems' the locals have with their rifles jamming due to poor maintanance - sound familliar? 3) For all the bitching about the M16 having problems, it seems that most of them are due to neglect - not just poor cleaning, but poor upkeep/maintanance. If you let a machine get worn out (and let me tell you, there are units in the service who most definately DO let their weapons get worn out), and you don't keep it clean it will jam up... 4) Your piston system does NOTHING to correct any of the following issues: wear & tear, poor cleaning, and FOREIGN OBJECT DEBRIS. Those 3 are what actually cause JAMS, not 'Carbon in the upper reciever"... I work with US Army M16s every day... A whole 200+ of them... Let's just say I've seen no evidence that we need to fuck up the M16 action with a piston... We (the Army) need to (a) properly maintain (eg replace worn out parts) our weapons, and (b) make sure soldiers clean them properly...

#1  Not true.  If tighter tolerances were superior for a SERVICE rifle, they would all carry national match tolerances.  The problem is called RELIABILITY.

If the military believed that semi auto was the hot nuts, they wouldn't put either full auto or burst selector on every SERVICE rifle they issue.

I agree with you by the way.  Semi Auto SHOULD be where it is at.  Particularly with the new sighting capability you folks have over what we had.

#2  BS.  I personally have 'grilled' 8-9 guys about rifle reliability.  Several stated that they would use the AK BECAUSE OF RELIABILITY.  and a better cartridge.  The rifle that shot the bullet that hit me 37 years ago was more reliable than the M16's around me.

#3  You are right, a piston system will not solve neglect.  Just allow a lot more of it and the rifle will still function.  I belonged to an organization that  put weapon cleanliness next to godliness.  It didn't matter whether you were a REMF or grunt.  I was a DI at one time and a dirty rifle could cause me to have seizures all over the turd with a dirty weapon.

A piston system WILL allow more neglect than a gas impinged system.  Why, it is a matter of where the garbage goes, and even more importantly where that exhaust heat goes.

#4  The piston system DOES reduce wear, tear, and allow more neglect or non cleaning than the present gas system.  Preventing the heat and waste from getting to the action is superior in every sense.

AS to your last.  I agree totally.  Proper maintenance, repairs and motivation.  Nothing new.  My alma mater solved personal maintenance problem a long time ago.  Cleaning weapons approaches religious aspects.

AS to your comments about the short barrel versions I agree.  Start with a underpowered cartridge then emasculating it further with a short barrel is not an answer, IMNSHO.  Just remember why a few, (not most) do that.  Most do it cause it is kool.  Some do it so as to improve weapon performance inside buildings and vehicles.

I believe the capability to fold the butt-stock will more than compensate for a short barrel, in a piston system which does NOT need a buffer.  In fact in A'stan the short stuff ain't quite as kool.  Go figure.

Oh one more thing......

We may disagree but.....  I no longer march to the guns.  I am old fat and sickly now.  It is time for good men like you to carry the ball.  Good luck and GodSpeed.

Thank you deeply for your service.  Stay safe and God Bless.

Fred

Quoted: Well Sey Doo, don't you feel foolish and nice a real newbie with that BS flag?

Uh.....no.

It appears that ARES is shipping these out, at least two of them anyway.  If they function properly and are durable then that is great.  Given what happened, or didn't happen, with the Shrike, until I see significant numbers being produced, shipped and purchased, I will remain skeptical. I look forward to more reviews/range reports.

BTW I find it interesting that there is no way to order one of these on their website, nor is there any link to distributors/retailers, nor was I able to ever get a real person on the phone this past week despite trying a dozen times.  I guess I will have to leave a message.

Seydou

Yeah, and lets not forget the huge noise ARES made about these a few months back, and then dropped off the face of the earth and didn't even show up at SHOT.

Okay, went to the range today. Keep in mind I was dodging rain squalls so I didn't get to fire the hundred-plus rounds I wanted to. However, I managed to put about 60 rounds downrange---a mix of Federal XM193 and Lake City M855 "green tip". All full power mil-spec stuff. NO malfunctions of any kind. Recoil seemed just a hair sharper, but not like firing 6.8SPC or anything. Of course the fact that it is on a Bushy Superlight could enhance that feeling of recoil. I wasn't really shooting for accuracy but more for function. However, the silhouette target at 50yds seemed the same as when I shot this rifle with DI a few weeks ago. A large stump at @ 150yds had bark flying off of it with every shot.

Obviously clean-up was a breeze, although I took my time and inspected all the areas of carbon deposit. There was some on the lower part of the FSB, but my Leitner-Wise does the same thing. There was also carbon on the inside of the upper handguard, again like the LW. All the carbon wipes off, no scrubbing required. The bolt and carrier were wiped off and put back, NOTHING like a DI gun. Actually they didn't even need wiped off but I'm anal.

One thing about this Ares system that is odd to me: I've always been under the assumption that the gas piston system of just about ANY weapon that has one is supposed to be left dry after cleaning. M-14, FAL, AK, etc. However, the Ares instructions call for a drop of Break-Free into each hole on each side of the piston "chamber" (under the handguards). That is what I did and it worked fine function-wise; it's just different. I didn't take the piston all the way out to clean it, just pulled back on the spring loaded push-rod enough to where the piston slid almost all the way out and wiped it off, then put the obligatory drop of oil into each vent hole.

Although I haven't exactly conducted the "SCAR" trials with my carbine I'm quite pleased with the investment. Worth it to me.

Druthers? I'd chrome the piston itself and the inside of the piston chamber. Other than those small nitpicky items I'm well pleased.          

I ordered mine today from ARES.  I just made a phone call and got all the info.  He said he has over 80 kits in stock ready to ship now.  I wish they would take CC info over the phone.  I just returned from USPS and shipped out a USPS priority envelove for $420.  I'm going to punish this system and see how it works on my bushmaster 11.5" M16.  I had a problem with the POF system when it first came out so I had a bad taste in my mouth for piston systems.  This looks like the ticket.  If not it will be for sale in about 2 weeks on the EE.

Ares made me include a copy of my M16 paperwork to get the M16 kit.  No big deal but weird cuz it's only a carrier.

i wouldn't mind having one of these but i'm not paying $400 for one. if they were more along the lines of $200ish i would buy one.

Any pics of the bushing that fits into the upper?? Also does the return spring just butt against the barrel nut??

Pictures of the bushing are on page 2.  Looks like the Vltor CASV-EL will be close to a drop on fit.


This is a picture of the ARES pre-production model.

Its gonna be good to see if the ares system holds up..if it does and the military goes piston on the M4..with this just a drop in system it would seem to be superior in that respect to all other systems so far...once reliability is proven and with all the competition I think eventualy it will get cheaper.

I'm glad to see others are getting these kits in and installing them! I actually ended up selling my gun at the last local gun show... Had it setup just the way I wanted; even picked up a new EOtech 553 at the show. While I was screwing around with mounting the 553 on the gun behind the my friend's table, a guy was buying a Walther P22, saw my AR, and had to have it. Oh well, made enough to get a cool FS2000 in black and some ammo.

Quoted: Any pics of the bushing that fits into the upper?? Also does the return spring just butt against the barrel nut??

Yep, the spring just sits up against the barrel nut. As far as the bushing that fits in the upper... Its a small piece of tubing thats very slightly tapered on one end to make it easier to install, and split down one side. As you tap in the bushing, the taper makes it possible without having incredibly small hands, and the further its banged in, the more it closes up the split. Once installed properly, you can't see the split.

--EasyD

Thanks D, I just might have to try one of these out!!

They should definately chrome the whole system, especially if they are looking at the .mil.

Quoted: They should definately chrome the whole system, especially if they are looking at the .mil.

+1

Quoted: Quoted: They should definately chrome the whole system, especially if they are looking at the .mil. +1

I don't think that the carrier should need to be chromed, but defnitely the piston and where it rides inside of the piston chamber as I stated was a "druthers" of mine. Those are the only areas subject to fouling.

I am still not exactly sold on a piston system in general though, for it is merely another method to push the carrier back...

90% of malfunctions I have witnessed in the AR system are FTEx, with other common malfunctions being FTF (bad mags, ramps, etc) and FTEj (piece of brass or something making ejector stick).  A piston does nothing to alleviate these problems.  Adding non-chromed small moving parts seems more like a liability than an improvement.

As far as "AK reliability" there is no way ANY AR based piston system can claim that, because no AR piston system utilizes a long-stroke piston connected to the carrier and a fixed ejector.

The only technical advantages of the piston I see are, firstly the lack of heat transfer to the receiver, but how that manifests into a tangible improvement I have not seen and cannot envision in a civilian semi-auto...the heat still has to be deposited some where. Secondly, would be the lack of bolt rings, but this is not really a big deal.  It takes .2 seconds to change bolt rings every ten thousand rounds or so.

The pics show that the chamber is still just as dirty as a DI chamber (as it should because the same round is being fired in the same way) and thus the only improvement in cleanliness in evident on the bolt and carrier.  So?  These parts are now is easier to clean, but has anyone ever seen an AR where carbon deposit on the bolt and carrier has actually resulted in a malfunction?  I have not, but of course this is not to say it can’t happen.
The piston will still need cleaning eventually and the Ares system requires lube that (correct me if I wrongly interpreted the procedure described above) can be deposited via two small holes…this makes me question its efficacy in sandy environments (an issue for us civies that live in regions where frequent sand storms rival those in ‘The Mummy’).

Maybe I am just missing something all together.

Valid point.

I would have to agree in general with what chewbacca said... The chamber area still gets quite dirty. All the failures I've had with any of my ARs have always been of the FTExtract and FTFeed type, and the piston doesn't change that at all.

All that said, chicks dig gas piston uppers.

--EasyD

Quoted: I would have to agree in general with what chewbacca said... The chamber area still gets quite dirty. All the failures I've had with any of my ARs have always been of the FTExtract and FTFeed type, and the piston doesn't change that at all. All that said, chicks dig gas piston uppers. --EasyD

LOL!  

I don't disagree with Chewbacca's post at all. Good points. But for ME at least, ease of maintenance is worth it. Yeah, $400+ for easier cleaning is kinda steep but hey, I've spent money on stupider shit before!

Like I've confessed to in every piston thread I've posted in, that is my biggest selling point for gas piston systems. I detest the @ 90 minutes it takes me for a good ol' anal AR cleaning job (man, that didn't sound right!). Piston cuts it to @ 30-40 minutes. Mind you, this is "arms room" clean.

Do you have to use their handguards?

Where did all you guys learn to speak Wookie?  I have never understood a single thing Chewbacca has said.

Quoted: Do you have to use their handguards?

Not necessarily. I do believe SOME rail systems may fit, although a few of them may need some minor mods. If a rail system fits one of the other piston guns (LW, POF) I'd assume it will fit the Ares converson. You have to have a little extra clearance underneath the top portion of the rail behind the FSB where the piston/op rod resides.

For mine it is not a problem. It's on my "KISS" Bushy Superlight so I have no intention of putting a rail system on it. The M4 style handguards are fine for me in this case. On my Leitner-Wise conversion upper I have the Grenadier Precision rail system, which is nice but kind of negates the lightness of the LW piston setup. But hell, ANY M4gery becomes heavier with a rail on it.

Quoted: has anyone ever seen an AR where carbon deposit on the bolt and carrier has actually resulted in a malfunction?

Yes, shooting FA, suppressed on my 11.5" upper, it gets so fouled that the carrier is dragging on all the crud in the upper on the chamber side.  The gun feels sluggish cycling.  In addition, sometimes it would not chamber a round from a fully loaded mag because of all the crud.
This is all easily remedied by using a cleaning out the upper w/ brush and some degreaser/lube.  Then I'm back in action.
I'm not saying a gas piston setup would do any better.  Just stating my own experience.

I just got a Shrike this past saturday and hope to try it out this coming weekend and will see if the fouling is any less with its gas piston setup.

Quoted: As far as "AK reliability" there is no way ANY AR based piston system can claim that, because no AR piston system utilizes a long-stroke piston connected to the carrier and a fixed ejector. The only technical advantages of the piston I see are, firstly the lack of heat transfer to the receiver, but how that manifests into a tangible improvement I have not seen and cannot envision in a civilian semi-auto...the heat still has to be deposited some where. Secondly, would be the lack of bolt rings, but this is not really a big deal.  It takes .2 seconds to change bolt rings every ten thousand rounds or so. Maybe I am just missing something all together.

You are missing two things that I can point out.

1.  The AK47 uses a short stroke piston as it vents early in the piston stroke, not at the end, so that is not the difference you are claiming.

2. The heat that causs premature failure in the DI rifle bolt is vented under the handguard and blown away by the wind.

Quoted: 1.  The AK47 uses a short stroke piston.....

Quoted: Quoted: 1.  The AK47 uses a short stroke piston.....

Depends on who you talk to.  Hell, even AK experts disagree as to whether it is a long stroke or a short stroke system.

I just recieved my tracking # from ARES Defense.  My GSR-35 will be here on friday!  I will post some pic's when I modify my Vltor CASV-EL to fit over it.

Bering a lefty with a suppressed RH AR I can see this in my near future.  Did you guys that bought them recently go directly through Ares or a vendor?

I called Ares directly monday and they said that they had 150 units coming back from heat treating wednesday or thursday.
I had them reserve me one and sent the check off the same day.
$419.95
I will post when it comes in.

bump

Ares has never accepted payment for a product and not shipped have they?
/scarcasm for those who missed it/

Any thoughts on using the Ares system on an upper other than 5.56 ??  A gas piston 7.62 x 39 and .458 Socom come to mind.  Any idea how it would hold up ??

Quoted: I called Ares directly monday and they said that they had 150 units coming back from heat treating wednesday or thursday. I had them reserve me one and sent the check off the same day. $419.95 I will post when it comes in.

Please tell us you have received the unit by now and have only forgotten to post as such.

My GF keeps asking me what I want for XMAS and was leaning towards one of these.

It still needs the standard AR15/M16 buffer and buffer spring to return the bolt carrier into battery right?
Ares' pic of their Shrike looking upper has a folding stock

Shrike is a different ball of wax. They claim to make a nonbelt fed Shrike, which allows the use of a folding stock. The GSR-35 requires an otherwise stock carbine length gas system upper, and a lower with buffer.

--EasyD

Quoted: It still needs the standard AR15/M16 buffer and buffer spring to return the bolt carrier into battery right? Ares' pic of their Shrike looking upper has a folding stock