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Posted: 7/27/2006 12:19:26 PM EDT
Original Source

I like to play with AR15s quite a bit and when I see one for sale used, I usually ask about it. Often (especially at gunshows) I get the comment "I've probably fired less than 100 rounds through her" or something similar. Because I log the number of rounds fired on all of my firearms and already own a few AR15s, I am usually able to estimate the number of rounds on an AR15 by examining it.

However, for those of you who aren't as fortunate, I thought I would put together this guide to show what different parts of the AR15 look like at different round counts. Hopefully this information will help you estimate the amount of wear and tear left in a used rifle.

First some important caveats:

The AR15 is a very modular system. You can replace virtually any part in it with a brand new part very easily. As a result, just because one part is brand new doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the rifle is in the same condition.

This guide concentrates on the bolt carrier group. This is for two reasons - one is that the bolt carrier group is a part that is critical to the function of any AR15, two is that the bolt carrier group is like the rings on a tree - it is one of the best ways to figure out the wear on an AR15.

This is not an exact science. Using different lubrication, different amounts of lubrication or shooting under different conditions may cause you to have similar wear but with significantly less/more round count than the pictures here. However one thing that does remain constant is these pictures give you a good idea of wear on these parts over time and a rough idea of how much use remains in the part.
==============================================

How to determine the round count on an AR15:

We will start from the outside of the bolt carrier group and work inwards. Key parts to examine on the bolt carrier group are the bearing rails (particularly the front and rear of the rails), the underside of the bolt where the hammer drags, and the front edge of the base of the gas key. These are areas where wear will show first. The shinier these areas are and the further the wear extends towards the center of the bolt carrier, the more rounds have been fired with that bolt carrier.


Bolt carrier group w/ 276 rounds     vs.     Bolt carrier group w/1,849 rounds
Examples (Hi-Res): Bolt Carrier Group with 276 rounds, Bolt Carrier Group with 315 rounds, Bolt Carrier Group with 1,849 rounds

While it is less reliable, you can also look at hammer wear on the underside of the bolt in order to get a rough guess of the round count. However, bolt carrier groups will typically not show substantial wear from the hammer until after the 2k mark.

This picture shows (from front to back) 1,849 rounds, 276 rounds, and 315 rounds:

==============================================

Even better than examining the bolt carrier, is examining the bolt itself and the cam pin. The shinier the cam pin and the more obvious the "groove" in the pin, the more rounds that cam pin has seen. On the bolt, you are looking at three areas - the ring right behind the extractor cut, the tail of bolt behind the gas ring, and the bolt face.

The ring behind the extractor cut bears on the inside of the bolt carrier and is one of the first places to show wear. The less parkerizing you see here, the more rounds through the gun. Likewise, the tail of the bolt behind the gas rings gives two signs of wear - first the parkerizing wears off the tail from hot gases flowing around it. Second, over time carbon that is very difficult to remove begins to build up even with dedicated cleaning efforts. The carbon buildup can be a misleading indicator though since it depends on the cleaning habits of the shooter, type of firing done, and once it reaches a certain point it becomes self-limiting and a bolt with 12k rounds will look much like a bolt with 6k rounds. However, when a seller is claiming less than 1,000 rounds and you notice significant carbon build-up, that is a good sign of bad maintenance habits or more shooting than claimed. Let's look at some examples:

Here is what a brand new, never fired bolt looks like (Hi-Res) for comparison (keep in mind that a bolt in this condition may also indicate a potential problem - the gun has never been fired with this bolt):


Bolt with 276 rounds Hi-Res:

Note that this bolt has just a tiny bit of wear on around the leading edge of the ring, almost no wear on the tail and just a tiny bit of carbon buildup from lax cleaning (:o ). The cam pin shows wear at the bottom, on the edges of the top of the pin and around the groove.

Bolt with 295 rounds Hi-Res:

Very similar to the previous example; but with a bit more wear on the tail and less even wear on the ring.

Bolt with 315 rounds Hi-Res:

Wear on the cam pin is not much different; but there is noticeably more wear on both the ring and the tail of the bolt as well as more carbon build-up. This bolt was run fairly dry and you can see the difference in the wear.

Bolt with 1,849 rounds Hi-Res:

By comparison, even though this bolt has five times as many rounds on it, it has been kept drenched in Slip 2000 gun lube and is in better shape than the 315 bolt. With one major difference being that although this picture doesn't show it well, there is significantly more carbon built up on the tail of the bolt.

PLACEHOLDER FOR 4k+ PICS

As you can tell, even with a significant difference in the round count, it can be tricky business trying to guess the difference between a well-maintained bolt with 1,500 rounds on it and a poorly maintained bolt with 300 rounds on it; but what about that bolt face business? Well, the bolt face is probably the single best place to see small differences in round counts on low round count guns, however as round counts increase, it becomes less useful.  

Let's take a look at a new, never fired bolt face Hi-Res:

As you can see, the bolt face itself is black as night. There is no wear on the ejector pin and no wear at all on the face of the lugs. No powder residue, no sealant, no brass marks - completely new.

Bolt face w/ 276 rounds Hi-Res:

Still pretty good here - all of the parkerizing is still on the face of the bolt; but we have a little leftover primer sealant and powder residue on the face as well. Also, the ejector and the face of the bolt lugs are missing some parkerizing; but all in all, pretty good condition.

Bolt face w/ 295 rounds Hi-Res:

Pretty much the same, with a little less wear on the face of the lugs and a different pattern of wear on the ejector. Also more sealant and powder residue around the bolt. You can also see a small ring starting to form around the firing pin hole. This ring will start to form around 300 rounds and becomes more pronounced over time.

Bolt face w/315 rounds Hi-Res:

Once again, similar to the other examples except we begin to see some wear on the actual bolt face and the ring around the firing pin hole is more clear.

Bolt face w/1,849 rounds Hi-Res:

Remember how it was more difficult to tell the 1,849 bolt from the 315 bolt? Not so difficult now is it? The 1,849 bolt is missing most of the park from the bolt face and has an even, shiny pattern of wear on the lugs and ejector. Further the ring is fully formed now and probably won't look much different at twice this round count.

PLACEHOLDER FOR 4k+ PICS

Hopefully this guide was helpful to you in evaluating your used AR purchase. For those of you who have an accurate round count on your weapons, please feel free to share your own pics of the bolt, bolt face, cam pin and bolt carrier group. Hopefully, this will make a better resource for all of us.
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 1:51:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Great post!

Thanks.
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 2:07:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Is it just me or does the 315 round bolt look more worn than the 1849 round bolt?

Good post BTW.  Great info.
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 2:08:47 PM EDT
[#3]
wow!!
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 2:10:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Very cool. This one would be a good sticky maybe.
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 2:12:19 PM EDT
[#5]
+1, this is awesome...
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 2:15:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 2:20:16 PM EDT
[#7]
great info
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 2:28:21 PM EDT
[#8]
I Submit my 5K-ish bolt.



Link Posted: 7/27/2006 2:32:35 PM EDT
[#9]
I immediately of course stripped my AR's to inspect and found something interesting... my  SP1 with over 1000 rnds for sure has a better looking bolt than my bushy A2 gov't that I purchased brand new and has about 400 rds through it... especially on the bottom of the bolt.. these comments pertain only to finish on the bottom of the bolt.. everything else is consistent, remarkably consistent, with the pics.... thoughts anyone?  Why would the bottom of the bushy bolt wear faster than the colt, but not the top?

You've inspired me, I am going to start logging each session and periodically take pics... I reaffirm what I said eariler...

+1 and stick it!  Great thread
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 2:34:32 PM EDT
[#10]
I vote sticky, this is really good info.

Thanks.
Carter.
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 2:35:50 PM EDT
[#11]
tag
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 4:17:59 PM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
Why would the bottom of the bushy bolt wear faster than the colt, but not the top?


Good question. Just a wag on my part; but my first guess would be that the space between the bolt carrier and the tail of the bolt is slightly smaller in the Bushmaster. Is the Bushy a carbine or shorter gas system and the Colt a rifle?

On a related note, here is the Powerpoint presentation for the SOPMOD Block II program presented at the 2006 NDIA Small Arms Conference.

This presentation (pgs. 43-52) notes that bolts in the M4 carbines subjected to harsh firing schedules show initial cracking at either the cam pin hole or the bolt lugs between 3,000 and 6,000 rounds. They go on to state that even with a milder schedule of firing, nearly all M4 bolts will show initial cracking between 6,000 and 10,000 rounds. They go on to state that once initial cracking starts, bolts can fail immediately or continue on for thousands of rounds. Lots of good pictures explaining what to look for as well.

I would guess that what the SOPMOD program considers a mild program is probably a lot worse than most civilian M4geries will see; but a bolt with more than 6k may need to be checked and a bolt with 10k on it may be nearing the end of its usefulness.

It is also important to remember that pressures on the bolt are a lot higher in the carbine gas systems and that a bolt in a midlength or rifle length gas system may see longer life.
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 5:58:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Excellent Post!  Thank you very much B_Roberts!

I vote Stickey!  Time to go strip my ar and look at the bolt assembly...BRB.
Link Posted: 7/27/2006 7:30:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Very informative post. Good reference material !
Link Posted: 7/28/2006 12:35:14 AM EDT
[#15]
Great post, thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 7/29/2006 5:25:40 AM EDT
[#16]
How would dry firing affect this? I often dry fire my AR's for practice?
JR
Link Posted: 7/29/2006 8:47:17 AM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
How would dry firing affect this? I often dry fire my AR's for practice?
JR


Well, dry-firing cycles the action so I imagine you would see wear in many of the same places - the bolt carrier rails, hammer weatr, cam pin, base of gas key, and the ring around the bolt. However, since cycling the action by hand doesn't involve near the heat or pressures of firing the weapon, I would expect the wear to be less than the equivalent amount of rounds fired.

Also, dry firing wouldn't affect the bolt face at all and would not add to carbon build up on the tail of the bolt. So if someone claims a gun has been dryfired frequently but still has less than 500 rounds through it, the bolt face and bolt will show whether that is true or not.

Edited to add: If anyone wants to take a new bolt carrier group and bolt and show what the effects of 500 rounds of dry fire look like, that should show pretty well whether the wear is similar to 500rds on the parts I speculated would be affected. My SWAG is that it will not be anywhere close.
Link Posted: 7/29/2006 11:18:43 AM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why would the bottom of the bushy bolt wear faster than the colt, but not the top?


Good question. Just a wag on my part; but my first guess would be that the space between the bolt carrier and the tail of the bolt is slightly smaller in the Bushmaster. Is the Bushy a carbine or shorter gas system and the Colt a rifle?.....   ... ...


No my bushy is a A2 gov't, rifle length gas system but what you said about the tight spacing at the back of the bolt makes A LOT of sense to me because all of the finish wear is on the back of bolt right up to the opening.

BTW: VERY EXCELLENT briefing, very interesting... THANKS!
Link Posted: 7/30/2006 4:13:23 AM EDT
[#19]
for me when it comes to quessing a round count on a used AR I am for the most part clueless but you really have just helped me out alot.

Great post and very good useful info

thanks!!!
Link Posted: 7/30/2006 8:00:21 AM EDT
[#20]
"How many rounds through it" has to be one of THE stupidest questions that an AR seller gets asked.

Unless it's brand new or unless the owner can produce documentation of the chain of ownership and a round count book any answer is nothing but a lie.  

Your post is an excellent tool for potential buyers.  And sellers.  
Link Posted: 7/30/2006 10:01:15 AM EDT
[#21]
I REFUSE to buy used AR`S or any firearms

Unless I know the person then maybe!

BTW my bushmaster Bolt has over 2000rds and my CMT a little over 1000rds

My bushmaster looks newer



I will buy a new BOLT when selling my used up ar15
Link Posted: 8/1/2006 11:01:34 AM EDT
[#22]
Great post, very informative.  headbang.gif
Link Posted: 8/3/2006 4:59:41 PM EDT
[#23]
height=8
Quoted:
I REFUSE to buy used AR`S or any firearms

Unless I know the person then maybe!

BTW my bushmaster Bolt has over 2000rds and my CMT a little over 1000rds

My bushmaster looks newer



I will buy a new BOLT when selling my used up ar15What about those of us who need to buy a used pre ban to get the options we want? How about sellers being honest and buyers b eing informed, Great Thread!
Link Posted: 8/4/2006 7:41:56 PM EDT
[#24]
Awesome, useful, factual thread. I wish I cleaned my rifles as well as some of you guys do. Nice work.
Link Posted: 8/6/2006 5:14:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Awesome Post!
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 12:38:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Excellent Post! Great sticky material too!

I've also noticed that after 350 rds on my M4gery, I had just slight dinging on the shell deflector lug with little park removal, after 700 rds, considerable dinging and park removal occured.

Also, after 350 rds, no noticeable markings to the feedramps after cleaning, after 700 rds, there are noticeable but slight shell wear markings after cleaning.

Although I didn't check my bolt too much at 350 rds, at 700 rds, my bolt pretty well matchs Bar_Roberts 315 rd bolt.

This is great info to help us noobys to know when to start replacing parts too. So if not stickyed here, perhaps it would fit nicely in the Cleaning - Maint.  tech forum.
Link Posted: 8/18/2006 6:50:35 PM EDT
[#27]
Ok, I don't come on here that often any more so take my $0.02 for what it's worth.

Post like this sound neat and "informative" but what in the heck does it matter about the difference in wear between 276 rounds and 315 rounds? This is the difference in 45 seconds at the range and absolutely nothing to do with the life of an AR rifle. First, if you{no one in particular, "you" being a generality} know, to the round, how many rounds you've fired through your rifle (non bolt style) than you need to talk to a therapist about your OCD issues. Second, if 1800 rounds is your most heavily fired AR than nothing personal but your observations on wear and longevity of an AR system is really insignificant. If your pictures were between 1000, 10,000, 25,000 & 50,000 rounds than we'd have a legitimate conversation. The difference between 300 & 700 is absolutely inconsequential.

Just my $0.02 worth, flame on.

Eddie
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:21:33 AM EDT
[#28]
DETERMINING ROUND COUNTS, THERE IS A BETTER WAY.

Checking wear on parts as previously indicated is good to tell if a gun is still new and no problem with that but there are other things that wash out ARs.

One is hammer and trigger pin holes elongating.  Last I heard 40% of AR receivers are scrapped at first depot rebuild.

There is a <> shaped gage plug used to check these holes, if it goes in they scrap the receiver.

Next is erosion gage.  First is the military gage with one ring on it.  It measures how far the erosion has progressed down bore.  It is slid in from the back of receiver and if the ring is visible it generally means the barrel is still capable of meeting military dispersion (a term we call accuracy) requirements.

First you have to remember the M16A2 ACCEPTANCE dispersion for 10 shots at 100 yards with select ammo was 4.5" and REJECTION  is 7.2" at 100 yards.

There is a far superior gage I have used:

http://www.beastwerks.com/throat_erosion/throat_erosion.htm

Click on that and you will see a AR gage designed for all AR barrels and a nice explanation of how they are used.  I have several of these gages for different calibers and they are very nicely done and you can track exactly where you are in the round life of your barrel.
They are calibrated off new barrels so you have a rough idea of how many rounds are on a particular barrel.  All we need now is feed back from guys who keep round records as compared to group size with handloads to tell us how many rings on one of these gages equals what size groups with good handloads.

Had a nice discussion with young man who won Civilian Service Rifle Championship about three years ago.  He says he gets about 2000 rounds on his tube and it is gone.

Now you have to remember for a match shooter when the rifle opens up to over an inch it immediately becomes a Tomato Stake or REBAR for that next concrete pour.

Also MILSPEC ammo really sucks in terms of dispersion.  Most ARs with M193 acceptance ammo target about 3" at 100.

Now military contract has extremely liberal acceptance standards.  I noticed a couple vendors are saying MOA as standard for varmint rifles.  This is with commercial bullets and or handload ammo which is far superior to most MILSPEC ammo.

Genuine FN SS109 shoots  extremely) well for MILSPEC ammo.   I have had it shoot ten shots in an inch or slightly over on several guns but genuine FN SS109 is hard to find.  If you can ever get genuine SS109 by FN jump on it and lay it in as it is rare.
It is BERDAN primed but if you ain't reloading anyhow????

So round counts at low rounds are really insignificant unless someone is passing off new rifle.

The M16A2 when tested by Marine Corp went 12,000 rounds per rifle and at 12,000 the average was 7.2" at 100 yds. using genuine FN SS109 ammo.

I was told by Test Director at Aberdeen that M193 on M16A1 shooting a cold schedule would go 22,000 rounds.

I was told by Marine Major who had 50 new M16A1s issued to him and he used them to FAMFIRE new personnel that he kept a round count on each rifle.  Every time they went to range they fired 30 rounds and returned to armory where they were cleaned with commercial cleaning rods, not military cleaning rods. In short they were well cared for and at no time was cleaning rod inserted from muzzle.  (best way to ruin barrel)

He told me when he left that facility he had 50,000+ rounds on each weapon and they were still very accurate.






Link Posted: 8/19/2006 7:17:01 AM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:
Post like this sound neat and "informative" but what in the heck does it matter about the difference in wear between 276 rounds and 315 rounds?


These are just examples of what I had available on hand. Others such as yourself are also welcome to contribute their own pictures and examples in lieu of peanut gallery criticism. To use a few examples, we have a 5k round picture in the thread that someone else contributed. There is also a picture-based quiz to test your ability to accurately judge round count at the original source link that someone else has thoughtfully added. These were other members like yourself who decided to add something instead of do a drive-by criticism.


First, if you{no one in particular, "you" being a generality} know, to the round, how many rounds you've fired through your rifle (non bolt style) than you need to talk to a therapist about your OCD issues.


Logging the number of rounds on a firearm is pretty much good common sense in order to develop a good preventive maintenance system and keep the rifle running. This is one of the reasons the SOPMOD program is developing a counter that tracks the number of rounds on any particular rifle. Since I use my rifles at the range mostly, it is a pretty easy matter to scratch down on a piece of paper how many rounds I fired when I put them away and log it. If you don't find that a valuable practice for your needs, then I recommend you don't adopt it.


Second, if 1800 rounds is your most heavily fired AR than nothing personal but your observations on wear and longevity of an AR system is really insignificant. If your pictures were between 1000, 10,000, 25,000 & 50,000 rounds than we'd have a legitimate conversation. The difference between 300 & 700 is absolutely inconsequential.


Once again, feel free to contribute any examples you have to the general knowledge. ABS Barrels kept my 9k bolt and bolt carrier and replaced it with the DPMS one you see in this series (315); so unfortunately the highest round count I have to share here for a bolt and bolt carrier is the 1.8k (due to that nasty tendency to replace worn parts that are critical to function before they break). I've got uppers and lowers in the 11k range; but the wear differences between those parts just don't make for good comparison.

While I appreciate you taking five minutes out of your day to criticize several hours worth of my work and my general knowledge, may I suggest that a more productive approach would be to share your knowledge of wear at the round counts you felt were relevant if you felt the current information was lacking? Or barring that, you could simply ignore those threads you felt didn't meet your information needs.


Quoted:
DETERMINING ROUND COUNTS, THERE IS A BETTER WAY.
Checking wear on parts as previously indicated is good to tell if a gun is still new and no problem with that but there are other things that wash out ARs.


Thanks for your input. I appreciate you taking the time to share what you know about the subject with us instead of doing a drive-by critique on me.

The main thing that spurred me to do this was several friends were recently buying ARs and all of them were getting the same "I only fired maybe a few hundred rounds" speech from the seller, even though that didn't appear to be the case. I thought it would be nice if people had a good reference point particularly since the NDIA 2006 SOPMOD presentation was suggesting that components like bolts and barrels have a relatively limited lifespan in heavy use.

Thanks for sharing the barrel gauge, that looks like an excellent tool to have on hand. The main purpose of the guide is to give people a visual reference of what to look for. It lets new AR purchasers be a little more informed -and often when an opportunity to buy a rifle comes up, we don't have the gauges we would need to judge wear more accurately on hand.


The M16A2 when tested by Marine Corp went 12,000 rounds per rifle and at 12,000 the average was 7.2" at 100 yds. using genuine FN SS109 ammo.


My own experience has been that a chrome-lined Bushmaster 16" 1/9 HBAR will start losing accuracy at 500-600yds around 6k rounds and by 9k rounds, it has lost enough that you will miss silhouette targets you would have hit at 6k. Despite that, it will remain a good shooter at 100-200yds and may have considerable barrel life left at that distance.

The NDIA 2006 SOPMOD presentation (pages 43-52) suggests that M4 carbines are seeing a useful barrel life of around 10k rounds and that bolts may have issues as early as 3k rounds in some circumstances.


So round counts at low rounds are really insignificant unless someone is passing off new rifle.


While I would agree that wear on the bolt face is primarily only good for determining low amounts of wear (<2k), I think knowing that information has two applications:

1) It gives you objective information concerning whether the seller is being honest with you about the condition of the rifle. If he is telling you he only fired 100 rounds through it and you can see a bright shiny bolt face with a black ring, he is lying to you.

2) If you don't log rounds on your rifle, it gives you a rough idea of what a part looks like at certain stages. If a bolt can develop cracks at 3k, and almost all bolts have them by 6-10k. It is useful to have an idea whether the part involved has 20%-80% of its useful life remaining.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 8:42:35 AM EDT
[#30]
I concurred completely with your notices of what does what when.  I look for the very same telltale signs  when I look at a used one.  If they show high wear I steer clear as I know the lowers will go quickly.  Your data is consistant with what I have seen.

You have some excellent photographs folks can use to judge near new and been there, done that and got the wore out gun to prove it haha.


If you want to photograph something shocking take a very tired barrel, cut it in half (long ways) and take a look at the gas port and what happens there.

I have one or two around here with 20,000 rounds on it and another with no idea how many.  I might try and photograph them at the gas port.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 8:45:03 AM EDT
[#31]
Very interesting post, this is the stuff that makes AR15.Com website great.  I have printed out this presentation and booked it for future reference.  I was somewhat surprised at the low round count for the BCG and barrel, interesting!

Again, thank you for the great information!
Link Posted: 8/20/2006 3:11:00 PM EDT
[#32]
/runs off to check BCG's on recently purchased "lightly used" AR's.


ETA:
MUTHA PUSSBUCKET!


Thank BR, I'm going to make good use of this.
Link Posted: 8/22/2006 3:16:14 PM EDT
[#33]
Very informative post....


From,
Joe....
Link Posted: 8/26/2006 12:44:17 PM EDT
[#34]

Quoted:

I will buy a new BOLT when selling my used up ar15



Link Posted: 8/29/2006 3:59:53 PM EDT
[#35]
STICKY !

By all means!

Great insights from all.
Link Posted: 8/29/2006 4:08:09 PM EDT
[#36]
Very informative.

Great post

Thanks

GM
Link Posted: 9/15/2006 11:38:37 AM EDT
[#37]
Quite easily the most informaytive post I have ever read here.  Thanks for the information.  
Link Posted: 9/17/2006 6:16:52 AM EDT
[#38]
This post is very informative. Thanks for posting.....


From,
Joe....
Link Posted: 9/17/2006 7:06:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Some things I'm noticing on a couple recent builds.

At 1,900 rounds there is significant wear at the point the bolt cam pin slips out of the cut out in the upper reciver during the unlocking/extraction phase of operation.

at 3,200 rounds there two bolt locking lugs on each side of the extractor have almost no finish left at the back of the lugs.
Link Posted: 9/17/2006 7:15:12 PM EDT
[#40]

Quoted:
If your pictures were between 1000, 10,000, 25,000 & 50,000 rounds than we'd have a legitimate conversation.


Might want to bring those numbers down a little. Bolt and Brl service life is closer to 5,000rnds if you are firing more than the sustained rate of fire of 12/15 rounds per minute (see TM 9-1005-319-10).

140rns rapid fire raises the brl to the point of cook offs.

if you dump one mag after another the carbine will KB in less than 600rnds in Colt's own tests.

You take a carbine to a couple 3-day carbine classes firing 1200rnds in each and you are half way to a Bolt & Brl replacement, if not a whole new top end. just sell the old one on the EE as "only 200 rnds fired" to someone who hasnt seen this thread.
Link Posted: 9/19/2006 12:59:28 PM EDT
[#41]
That is very informative.  Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/24/2006 8:44:27 AM EDT
[#42]
excellent
Link Posted: 9/26/2006 5:20:54 PM EDT
[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Second, if 1800 rounds is your most heavily fired AR than nothing personal but your observations on wear and longevity of an AR system is really insignificant. If your pictures were between 1000, 10,000, 25,000 & 50,000 rounds than we'd have a legitimate conversation. The difference between 300 & 700 is absolutely inconsequential.


While I appreciate you taking five minutes out of your day to criticize several hours worth of my work and my general knowledge, may I suggest that a more productive approach would be to share your knowledge of wear at the round counts you felt were relevant if you felt the current information was lacking? Or barring that, you could simply ignore those threads you felt didn't meet your information needs.


Very well said.  Perhaps firefighterEd ought to keep his posts at the minimum he currently does.  No need to sarcastically chastize this man's good work, period.

Thanks for the useful information.  
Link Posted: 9/27/2006 6:23:59 AM EDT
[#44]
Excellent work - thank you.  
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 1:06:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Bart,

if you don´t mind I have some pics of bolt and carrier assembly with more than 12 000 rounds and others too with various round counts.


MN
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 1:54:03 PM EDT
[#46]
Bartholomew_Roberts,

A little off-topic, but I am curious if there is any published data concerning the life-expectancy of a chrome-lined barrel vs. a non-chrome-lined barrel, assuming the same profile (heavy barrel carbine, let's say) and firing schedule.

For example, does a chrome-lined barrel maintain its combat accuracy, say, 1,000 rounds longer than a non-chrome-lined? 5,000 rounds longer? 10,000?

Has anyone ever done any serious research on this? Or does anyone have any personal opinions based on carefully observed comparisons?

Excellent post, BTW!
Link Posted: 10/8/2006 9:03:11 AM EDT
[#47]
Great post, thanks for the info
Link Posted: 10/8/2006 10:02:06 AM EDT
[#48]

Quoted:
Bart,

if you don´t mind I have some pics of bolt and carrier assembly with more than 12 000 rounds and others too with various round counts.
MN


Absolutely not, I would love to see the pics and the whole purpose of this thread is for all of us to share info and make it a better resource for everyone.


Quoted:
A little off-topic, but I am curious if there is any published data concerning the life-expectancy of a chrome-lined barrel vs. a non-chrome-lined barrel, assuming the same profile (heavy barrel carbine, let's say) and firing schedule.


Well, there is the single anecdotal tale of mag that took an unlined Colt HBAR and fired 10,000 rounds through it over the course of a weekend. I am not aware of any data comparing the life-span of the two barrels though. Based on my own informal questions, it doesn't look like chrome-lining offers much advantage in lifespan if you are shooting out over 300yds. Under 300yds, it may offer a few thousand rounds extra life and under 100yds, it may add 50% to the barrel life of the weapon. All of that is pretty rough guestimates though based on my experience or on the second hand tales of the few people I know who meet two important criteria:

1) They shoot often enough to burn out a barrel
2) They shoot well enough to track the decrease in accuracy

I know several guys who shoot thousands of rounds of ammo per year; but since most of it is fired in full-auto mag dumps at ranges of less than 50yds for amusement's sake, what they consider to be a "burnt-out" barrel is different than what I consider burnt-out.

Sounds like M4A2 may have an opinion on that though...
Link Posted: 10/13/2006 4:54:46 PM EDT
[#49]
I got my RRA used but it looked really good on brief inspection on 6/04. I didn't really now much at the time and this was my first AR. I'd guess maybe 1K or under since it hardly looked used. I now have 3093 rds through the bolt and carrier so it's probably seen 4K. Here's pictures of the bolt after cleaning by hand, sonic cleaning and then by hand again since I figured it's about the 4K mark I should clean it well and inspect for damage.





At 3093rds I took a 2 day carbine class and put in my CMT spare BCG I keep with it and ran 993rds through that BCG to make sure it functioned well with my RRA. It's being cleaned right now with a friends sonic cleaner and my camera just broke so it may be a little bit before I can get the 1K pictures up.
Link Posted: 10/17/2006 3:18:16 AM EDT
[#50]
Finally I have some time to upload some pics as I´m recovering of knee surgery...

Sorry about big pics...

My latest build, 16" Recce with 500+ rounds:





Bushmaster 20" A4 clone, 2500+ rounds





Bushmaster SPR, 3500+ rounds





Bushmaster M4, 6000+ rounds





Bushmaster M4, 12000+ rounds








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