well... I don't know a lot about guns and all of that stuff, but the Oakleys that guy was wearing at the first of the movie certainly were not around then.

that is my "couch commando" input on this

Update on the “mysterious” SF ODA 092 Kosovo photo "from 1992":

The earlier photo was actually a cropped version of the photo below:



The full caption of the photo was:
“US Armed Forces occupied Kosovo in June 1999. The 10th Special Forces Group A Detachment 092 in January 2002 posed with Russian counterparts, who shared their potentially explosive southeastern sector near Kamencia, along the border between Kosovo Province and Serbia Proper.”

Full Photo and Full Caption came from "US Special Operations Forces".

This would correct the wrong date of 1992, which was listed in the original post.

Sorry for the confusion!


AyeGuy - for those who do not have the Black Rifle II, how about adding anything out of the book that you think will help. I have been to cheap to shell out the $60 up to this point, but there is a gun show coming up next month, and I will probably go ahead and plunk down the $60 if I can find one.

IMHO, I think that there are actually a couple of things going on here, the search for info on:
1.  The ARs that Delta used during Gothic Serpent
2.  The Carbine Rifles that preceded the M4 (could have also been used by Delta)
3.  The search for info on the progression on the “Pre-M4 Carbines” to the “Official M4”

Hopefully this is not too much for one topic, and hopefully WildBill will not mind. Seems like a fair amount of decent info is being presented.

Thanks again to everyone,
“Capt Richardson”

PS: hopefully everyone remembers that what is in the books, manuals, and regs, is not always what is going on in the real world! Plenty of "Franken Carbines" and "Non-Issue" stuff here to prove that!


Fixed Typo / Incorrect Info

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/054176.jpg This is one of the photos I based my CAR, on page one  off of. I have a few other 653 pictures.

Can you post or IM them to me, thanks!

WTF.........

WTF......3X post?  

Quoted: Quoted: Was looking for a 45B(small arms/artillery repairer) A 18 series is SF(and have other MOS's) a 92Y(unit supply specialist) may have old records that can prove what and when. All I know is what I have used or carried. I've seen a ton of things the ARMY doesn't have. I say join and find out. The ARMY is paying $40,000 to sighn on the line. $10,000 for the Guard($15,000 if former service) Buys a bunch of toys. ATB, Chalmers Documentations is always considered good stuff. And my guess is that most of us have already done our time, or are still in.

I was in the Marines '83-'87. Force Recon had a few 14.5" A1 upper carbines with plastic 4-position telestocks. There were pics of these and a discussion of the usefulness of developing a "Personal Defense Weapon" for truck drivers and the like in an issue of Maine Corps Gazzette. Interestingly, they reccomended a 16" barrel.
This was the path that led to the M-4 after many twists and turns. I was a gun nut and remember that article well. Wish I'd of kept it.

double tap

Quoted: Ok, been hiding here for a while. We, the Army had M4's before 1994! Go to TM9-1005-319-10 dated Aug 1986, Page 1, Change No. 2 Dated 23 June 1993 " TM 9-1005-319-10, August 1986, is changed to add the M4 Carbine to this TM. Changes are as follows: Page Cover. Add "CARBINE, 5.56-MM, M4 W/E, (1005-01-231-0973)" The high speed guys ie: Rangers,SF,Delta...Had M4's way before that. Colt did not name the rifle! Delta had M4's and Car-15's.  In 91' I held an M4, but I was a M60 gunner, 7.62 ruled. What and when Colt marked M4's for the Civ. market is one thing. But us vets KNOW. ATB, Chalmers

10th SFG started going to Kosovo in late Jun, early Jul 1999....

National Stock Number 1005-01-376-7245 is a Colt 727 carbine. An m4 with A2 carry handle.

NSN- 1005-00-X03-2950 (local NSN given; Basically a Commercial item) is an "RIFLE, 5.56MM, M16A2 CARBINE, COLT"... This is a Commercial purchase, probably made by USSOCOM or USASOC.


These early "M4"s were adopted outside the big Army system... The one Colt 727 that I have fondeled in recent years had commercial M16A2 markings... No Property of US Gov't.

Though I do have a copy of an Army Operators TM somewhere that shows an M4 as having a carry handle.

Regardless of what they were called, M16A2 carbine, M4, whatever, there were M16A2 carbine versions in US Mil service before the official adoption of the flattop M4/M4A1 that we know today. Some combo of A1 field sites (with deflector), A2 receiver and 1/7 pencil barrel or M4 barrel. Either 100% new rifles, or simply new upper receivers on earlier Xm177s or Colt Model 653s (NSN 1005-01-029-3866  btw) .

After all, there is a reason why the Colt 6920 rifle was called "Gov't carbine". According to a friend who was in 1st Ranger BN during the Early 90s, the "CAR-15s" (Another slang term)they had were this configuration.

Regardless of what some gunshop guy will tell you, US SOF forces do/did buy commercial off the shelf firearms. Examples include these M4s, the SR25 and Barret M82 prior to their adoption into the official system, .300 WINMAG sniper rifles, HK21Es, etc.  

However, it should be pointed out that normally US Army SF does not get the cash for these items.. The standard "Green Beret" ODA gets their weapons through the Army system like any other unit. As such, The only units that seem to get them are the SEALS, Rangers, CAG/Delta, the three forward deployed (Germany, Okinawa, and used to be in Panama, then PR) SF CT/DA companies. Basically the same reason why the FN Mk46, MK48 machine guns have not trickled down to the US Army SF teams. Thats why during this M16A2 carbine M4 era, the standard SF team was armed with an M16A2.

Quoted: double tap

More like triple tap!

Sorry fellows don’t know what happened there. I posted my request, then logged off for the night. Come back in the AM to find this!  Damn Al Gore and his internet!!!

Quoted: National Stock Number 1005-01-376-7245 is a Colt 727 carbine. An m4 with A2 carry handle. NSN- 1005-00-X03-2950 (local NSN given; Basically a Commercial item) is an "RIFLE, 5.56MM, M16A2 CARBINE, COLT"... This is a Commercial purchase, probably made by USSOCOM or USASOC. These early "M4"s were adopted outside the big Army system... The one Colt 727 that I have fondeled in recent years had commercial M16A2 markings... No Property of US Gov't.

If you consider the 727 an M4, then yes there were M4's in service prior to 1994.  That just changes the controversy to wether or not the 727 is an M4 or not or "semantics".  Pattern Room has a 727, they got theirs in the late 80's, or before 91 or so.

Quoted: Though I do have a copy of an Army Operators TM somewhere that shows an M4 as having a carry handle.

That was the one we talked about earlier.  The first batch of M4 Carbines delivered in 1994 had fixed sights.

Quoted: After all, there is a reason why the Colt 6920 rifle was called "Gov't carbine". According to a friend who was in 1st Ranger BN during the Early 90s, the "CAR-15s" (Another slang term)they had were this configuration.

Think that is typo and you meant 6420, or 6520.  And yes, the Govt Carbine name dates as far back as the mid 1980's.

Thanks for the post Stottman, good stuff.

Quoted: <snip>southeastern sector near Kamencia, along the border between Kosovo Province and Serbia Proper.” <SNIP>

This is probably Kamenica, not Kamencia.  I'd have to locate and dig out my map.

Ekie,
Any more pics of the Colt M723 Carbines 'in the field'?

Quoted: Ekie, Any more pics of the Colt M723 Carbines 'in the field'?

The only field pictures I have of Carbines that appear to be 723's are the Delta pictures we have been discussing.  None of those picutures are very good.

Well, except maybe IDF pictures.

BTW, IDF M16 series are purchased the same as US Army "M16's"  Even thier M4 Carbines are marked US PROPERTY.  Of course COTS items would not be marked like that though, like say a 653.

CPT R;

We're done with Kosovo.  The last 10SFG guys were closing up shop about a year ago.  

First, let me apologize again for the screw up with the ODA in Kosovo. Between that mistake, and the earlier problem with Seal Team 6 or 8 issue, just goes to show that you had better double check your info if it came from the wonderful internet world! Once again the date of 1992 which was posted with original "croped photo" was incorrect. When I found the original photo, I found the correct date which was 2002.

Thanks again to everyone for the help, sorry for the "wild goose chase".
"Capt Richardson"

For those researching "Restore Hope / Gothic Serpent"


SSG Matt Eversmann - led one of the Task Force Ranger Chalks



Air Force Combat Controller Dan Schilling - CCT for the ground convoy (picture is from an earlier training mission, but it is period correct)




CSAR Team - this is an earlier photo of the Rangers from the Team. Team also inclided Delta & Air Force Spec Ops. This Team flew on Super 68 "Razors Edge", and responded to the Wolcott crash site.



Note - in this photo the "CARs" are fitted with "Cans", in another photo they were not. I am still trying to find out if the "Cans" were actually used on the day of the raid.


This is all from the Book "The Battle of Mogadishu":
Book Link

This book is definitely worth getting, a lot of great info and stories.

Good Luck,
"Capt Richardson"

For those researching Delta, some eaerlier photos:

Late 70s or early 80s?



Most likely in the 80s?



Sorry, the source of photos did not give any dates. If anyone can date them please jump in.

Good Luck,
"Capt Richardson"

For those researching the Pre-M4 Carbines:

"Cannned" SF Photo:




Navy Seal: ( EDIT - Note this is a "Rubber Duck" not the "Real Deal")




Air Force SP during Desert Storm:



I was surprised to see that!


PSD detail for "Stormin Norman" during Desert Storm:




Ekie & Sinister, if you guys are not "burned out on this" please feel free to keep jumping in. You are much better with the details than I am.

Thanks again to everyone, this has been a good learning experience and walk down memory lane for me,
"Capt Richardson"


edited Seal photo to denote "rubber duck"

Quoted: For those researching "Restore Hope / Gothic Serpent" SSG Matt Eversmann - led one of the Task Force Ranger Chalks i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/MEversmann.jpg Air Force Combat Controller Dan Schilling - CCT for the ground convoy (picture is from an earlier training mission, but it is period correct) i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/DShillingAFCC.jpg CSAR Team - this is an earlier photo of the Rangers from the Team. Team also inclided Delta & Air Force Spec Ops. This Team flew on Super 68 "Razors Edge", and responded to the Wolcott crash site. i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/CSAR.jpg Note - in this photo the "CARs" are fitted with "Cans", in another photo they were not. I am still trying to find out if the "Cans" were actually used on the day of the raid. This is all from the Book "The Battle of Mogadishu": Book Link This book is definitely worth getting, a lot of great info and stories. Good Luck, "Capt Richardson"

Now that’s what I’m talking about! Thanks Cpt. R!

That rifle Dan Schilling is holding is exactly what I was going after at the time of my build! Well with the exception of the twisted HG’s and addition of modern optics!

My CAR:




Cpt. R’s participation and input to this thread is what ARFCOM is all about! Thanks again!

The Dleta pic with the Wallther MP-L's and K's  is about '84-'85. I was told by a VERY reliable source that it was their bridge gun while their M-3A1 Grease Guns were wearing out and their first bulk deliveries of MP-5's. The guys in black with the MP-5's is the Berlin det, sort of on a dotted line to Delta, heard they were attached to 1st Bn. 10th SFG when they were still at Bad Tolz. It's a late '80's pic.

A little off topic, but the old-time guys loved the Grease Gun. Reliable, exceptionally controllable, you can single-shot it with a couple mags worth practice on your trigger manipulation (I've done it), and you have .45ACP stopping power/lack of overpenetration in your bread and butter hostage rescue tasking, and ammo compatibility with your preferred sidearm, the 1911A1.

Don't know about the Euro photo of the team armed with Walthers, but it's been in several of the mass-market SF books you can find in Barnes and Noble or Books-a-Million.

The other photo is of an SF unit that was based in Europe, long since deactivated.  I served with two guys in that photo.

The SEAL photo is actually a "Rubber Duck" training aid of a Colt 727 used for "Admin" tasks (dives or jumps when drawing and maintaining a real weapon out of the arms room would just be a pain in the butt and not required).

The OSS suppressed High Standard .22 pistol and the OSS suppressed M3A1 Grease Gun were great fun and exceptionally quiet and controllable for a 1940s design.  You can hear shots from the 22 hitting the target when you shoot at GI cardboard E-types.  If you shoot steel E-types with the Grease Gun it sounds like somebaody banging away at the plates with a ball-peen hammer.

Quoted: The SEAL photo is actually a "Rubber Duck" training aid of a Colt 727 used for "Admin" tasks (dives or jumps when drawing and maintaining a real weapon out of the arms room would just be a pain in the butt and not required).

I was going to post that the rifle in that pic looked like a rubber ducky, but wasn’t quite sure. My son brought home from school a book on Spec Ops that had that same pic and it looked like they engraved a rack number into the mag well and the ejection port looked strange like it was a solid ,molded  part. Wasn’t quite sure so I didn’t bring it up.

Quib,
Thanks for the kind words, but this was definitely a “team effort”. To be honest if it was not for Ekie and Sinister, and many others here, then a lot of the critical details would have probably been missed or left out.

Also, nice Stick!

Sinister,
Nice catch on the “Rubber Duck”!

I have been grabbing whatever I can find that looked like a “CAR”, and throwing it up for the members who are interested in the Pre-M4 stuff.

Sorry, I should have been paying more attention to detail on the “Generic Glamour Shots”. Would not be the first time that I have caught a “Rubber Rifle” in a photo.

Unless I can get some more specifics on the “Gothic Serpent Stuff” then I will probably call this one quits.

Thanks Again, Good Luck,
“Capt Richardson”

Thanks for the insights quib, pirate ec, captrich, and others you know who you are. A few months ago, I got interested in what happend back in 1993 in Mogadishu. I haven't read any books, but I did a lot of reading online. From the PBS website, airsoft sites, and the forums like bravo57.com , tfrogs.com , and of course the BHD movie.

From this thread alone, I saw a lot of pictures that I haven't seen before. Pictures of Delta during the op:restore hope was really hard to comeby. So seeing pics above is just undescribable.

Anyway, since the original question by the guy who posted this was "...blackhawk down M4." He is not entirely wrong. In fact those who attacked him were wrong. If you watch the BHD movie again, pay close attention to the scene where Capt. Steele points to Hoot that :

Cpt. Steele: "what is this sarg'nt...?"
Hoot: "......didn't want to leave it behind..."
Kuneho: (starts to smile while watching the movie)

Cpt. Steele: "i'm talking about your weapon...that is a hot weapon."
Kuneho: (here it comes)
Cpt. Steele: "...you should have safety on at all times ..."
(Cpt. Steele points his finger to Hoot's gun)

Press the Pause button. Check out those knobs on Hoot's carry handle. What is wrong with them. Yes, that's right my friends. That is a detachable carry handle that has knobs. And we all know that if CAR-15's have detachable carry handles, that they are something not known to be used during the 1993 ops.

I wish we had a BHD topic on sticky post that would just keep growing, so people would not be saying "i saw this last year, and last year for the last 100 years." I'm just a web surfer on a tight budget and my search button limits me to the past 30 days only. But, please watch the movie again before bashing on the guy who made the original post.

Thank you.

*Don't quote me on the original movie transcripts, I was just improvising to come up with a juicy reply.

Quoted: I wish we had a BHD topic on sticky post that would just keep growing, so people would not be saying "i saw this last year, and last year for the last 100 years." I'm just a web surfer on a tight budget and my search button limits me to the past 30 days only. But, please watch the movie again before bashing on the guy who made the original post.

+1.
I got ALOT of good information from this post.  A WHOLE LOT of good info!  If I had to search for this info, I would never find it (as i dont have the cash available to get a paid membership at the moment).

Quoted: Quib, Thanks for the kind words, but this was definitely a “team effort”. To be honest if it was not for Ekie and Sinister, and many others here, then a lot of the critical details would have probably been missed or left out.

Maybe so, but It's your willingness to  participate and bring something positive to the thread that are worth mentioning. So many members here lately see a thread like this and also see an opportunity show their ignorance  and do their best to disrupt the thread. This thread is reminiscent  of the threads that were abundant back in 2001 when I joined the site.

Quoted: Thanks for the insights quib, pirate ec, captrich, and others you know who you are. A few months ago, I got interested in what happend back in 1993 in Mogadishu. I haven't read any books, but I did a lot of reading online. From the PBS website, airsoft sites, and the forums like bravo57.com , tfrogs.com , and of course the BHD movie. From this thread alone, I saw a lot of pictures that I haven't seen before. Pictures of Delta during the op:restore hope was really hard to comeby. So seeing pics above is just undescribable. Anyway, since the original question by the guy who posted this was "...blackhawk down M4." He is not entirely wrong. In fact those who attacked him were wrong. If you watch the BHD movie again, pay close attention to the scene where Capt. Steele points to Hoot that : Cpt. Steele: "what is this sarg'nt...?" Hoot: "......didn't want to leave it behind..." Kuneho: (starts to smile while watching the movie) Cpt. Steele: "i'm talking about your weapon...that is a hot weapon." Kuneho: (here it comes) Cpt. Steele: "...you should have safety on at all times ..." (Cpt. Steele points his finger to Hoot's gun) Press the Pause button. Check out those knobs on Hoot's carry handle. What is wrong with them. Yes, that's right my friends. That is a detachable carry handle that has knobs. And we all know that if CAR-15's have detachable carry handles, that they are something not known to be used during the 1993 ops. I wish we had a BHD topic on sticky post that would just keep growing, so people would not be saying "i saw this last year, and last year for the last 100 years." I'm just a web surfer on a tight budget and my search button limits me to the past 30 days only. But, please watch the movie again before bashing on the guy who made the original post. Thank you. *Don't quote me on the original movie transcripts, I was just improvising to come up with a juicy reply.

I think this is what several people were arguing- just because you can pause your DVD and look at the weapons used in the making of the movie, doesn't make you an expert on what was really used back in 1993.  

You can't draw any conclusions about what was used based on that movie.  It might be accurate to a degree, but they used what was available.  That movie was made to appeal to a much larger audience than those of us who can and do pay that much attention to those types of detail.  

I'm not sure exactly what your point is- whether you are saying what I'm saying or you are trying to say that by watching the movie you will learn exactly what they used.  

Just think- there's probably a group of guys arguing about the humvees used in the movie and nitpicking about the style of the mirrors or door handles stating that a certain type was used from 1995 on and the ones in the movie aren't historically correct.  

The moviemakers can't be perfect so don't take anything you see on the DVD as gospel...

Maybe I will just ask Todd Blackburn. He works for the agency I used to work at. Maybe he saw a few of them before the big fall.

The fact is that it is a movie, and it is hard to get everything tight, but they did a great job... there is one very clear error as to the type of weapon used by one of the ODD snipers, but it really does not distract from the movie at all.

As for the reality of an M4 being there... even with a flat top, it could very well have happened.

The idea for the M4 took life in the early 1980s, when the USMC started looking for a replacement for the M3A1 -- thus the designation, natural number progression form M3 to M4. This was for the Force RECON guys and in 1984 Colt started to work in a Commando that had a barrel long enough to mount a 203 and a bayonet... In October on 1984 the drawing for what would become the M4 was finished.

In 1985, Colt received a contract for the XM4... TECOM started testing and evaluation of the rifle and it was type classified in 1986 -- attempts to put the rifle in the sytem were shot down by budget cuts three years in a row after this... Big Green took notice of the rifle though.

In the very early 90s, upper receivers from Diemaco were brought in by one of the manufacturers, these were the C7LT (later C7A1) uppers that had a flat top rail, the rail was not picatinny standard however, but rifles were fitted with them for certain HSLD groups in the early 90s... there is every chance that some of these could have made it to ODD or others.

COTS procurement and small order runs of rifles could have resulted in combinations of parts that included what was an M4 with flat top... M4 barrel on an A1/C7 lower... or many other unique combinations. To patently say that one of these was or was not there is at best speculation by almost everyone and even those that were involved may not recall some of the details that are trying to be sorted out here.

I have not chimed in on this... but the bottom line is that the movie was pretty darn accurate, they used many real deal Rangers, the SOAR and guys that were involved to get things right; could there have been what we call M4s there? Of course...

One of my buddies who I had emailed earlier asking for some help on the subject, stated that he had left 3/75 by 1990, and other than confirming the use of the “Carbines” as described by Ekie, he sad he really couldn’t add anything else.

He did however point out the website below:
Gun Zone

He said he had used it as a reference on a paper that he did for college, and to him it looked pretty legit.

If you look at the following page, you will find the following is listed under 1994:
The 5.56 X 45mm: 1986-1994

January:
The US military finally accepts an improved buffer assembly for the M4/M4A1 originally recommended during the carbine's initial development. Previously, the military did not want to introduce a new part different from that used by previous Colt carbines in inventory.

The USMC approves "Operational Requirements Document 1.14." This document repaves the long and twisting path for the eventual adoption of the M4A1 Carbine by Force Recon and other units with need of a CQB weapon more capable than the current pistol-caliber SMG (HK MP5-N).

KAC produces a very small quantity of cropped M4A1 variants, dubbed the M4A1K, for use by USSOCOM helicopter aircrews. (By early 1997, less than two dozen have been produced.)

February:
USSOCOM awards Colt a contract for the production of 5,000-6,000 M4A1.

August:
The US Army officially adopts the M4 and M4A1 Carbines. Colt is awarded ~$11 million for 24,000 carbines. Only the first lot of M4 will be delivered with fixed carrying handles. Afterwards, all M4/M4A1 in inventory will be shipped with flat-top upper receivers.


I am not versed enough to verify that the content is 100% dead on, but maybe one of the “Turds” (I use that term with the highest regard) can review it and see if it looks good.
 
If it is legit, then you will get a pretty good picture of the ARs history and development.


To be real honest, I would have thought there would have been a real clean “definition” of what constituted an “M4”, and I would have also thought there would have been a “given date” that would have covered its “introduction”. After this exchange, I have come to understand a lot more about the “Pre M4s” and the “Real M4s”, but I can also appreciate the fact that it is not all real “cut and dry” as I thought it would be.

Thanks again to everyone!
“Capt Richardson”  

Have not had time to contribute to the thread, am busy filling out 1098's, and 1099's, and just got in a a few parts kits that I am studying (US PROPERTY M16A1's in the 4.8 and the 1.75 million range), plus got to barrel a 601 upper, etc.  Will jump back in later.

From the Ranger that posted here, and looking at the pictures of the Carbines they carried, not to hard to figure out what happened there.  If you think about it, the old 653's that the 75th had would have been 1/12 twist.  In order to shoot M855 they needed a faster twist.  So, it is a heck of alot easier to order up some 727 uppers to pop on the 653 lowers, then to try and do a COTS purchase for new Carbines.

That is Daniel Watters time line, and yeah it is legit, and he posts here.

As pointed out, one of the problems is "semantics", that being the term "M4" has almost no meaning now (just ask Colt's, that is what the judge told them).  For example, if you consider the 727 to be an "M4", then there were "M4's" in service prior to 1994, semantics I suppose.  Think next time I will stick with just using model numbers when refering to 70's, 80's and early 90's "Goverment Carbines".

BTW, someone sent me an IM last night about this thread, I lost the IM, sorry about that.

Ekie...

Exactly. As we discussed before, it is semantics, coloqualism... or just one's team vernacular; this could just as easy be "are they Jetrangers or OH-58s" and someone would say "Kiowas!"

This has been a fun thread though and has made me not only have to dig back a bit, but even reach out to a couple of folks I have not talked to in a while... good stuff.

Quoted: Ekie... Exactly. As we discussed before, it is semantics, coloqualism... or just one's team vernacular; this could just as easy be "are they Jetrangers or OH-58s" and someone would say "Kiowas!"

58's......then you'd be talking my talk!

i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/SealCarbine.jpg Notice anything unusual about this Carbine? Thanks to all, Good Luck, “Capt Richardson”

Wow, I finally noticed that it is using a full size buttstock!

SEALs are allowed the choice of fixed or telescoping buttstocks and from time to time the fixed butts on carbines can be seen in pics.

Quoted: The fact is that it is a movie, and it is hard to get everything tight, but they did a great job... there is one very clear error as to the type of weapon used by one of the ODD snipers, but it really does not distract from the movie at all. As for the reality of an M4 being there... even with a flat top, it could very well have happened. The idea for the M4 took life in the early 1980s, when the USMC started looking for a replacement for the M3A1 -- thus the designation, natural number progression form M3 to M4. This was for the Force RECON guys and in 1984 Colt started to work in a Commando that had a barrel long enough to mount a 203 and a bayonet... In October on 1984 the drawing for what would become the M4 was finished. In 1985, Colt received a contract for the XM4... TECOM started testing and evaluation of the rifle and it was type classified in 1986 -- attempts to put the rifle in the sytem were shot down by budget cuts three years in a row after this... Big Green took notice of the rifle though. In the very early 90s, upper receivers from Diemaco were brought in by one of the manufacturers, these were the C7LT (later C7A1) uppers that had a flat top rail, the rail was not picatinny standard however, but rifles were fitted with them for certain HSLD groups in the early 90s... there is every chance that some of these could have made it to ODD or others. COTS procurement and small order runs of rifles could have resulted in combinations of parts that included what was an M4 with flat top... M4 barrel on an A1/C7 lower... or many other unique combinations. To patently say that one of these was or was not there is at best speculation by almost everyone and even those that were involved may not recall some of the details that are trying to be sorted out here. I have not chimed in on this... but the bottom line is that the movie was pretty darn accurate, they used many real deal Rangers, the SOAR and guys that were involved to get things right; could there have been what we call M4s there? Of course...

I told them so!

Hoot didn't exist?

<--- Utterly Devastaed.

"Hoot" was not an actual person, he was a composite character based on several Delta personnel.

Tag

[What a thread.  It looks like there's no definitive answer to the original post, but there's still a lot of great info here and some good photos.

Thanks to Capt Richardson for all your input.  
I would like to point out one thing, even though it may be a little off topic.  The "Air Force Combat Controller" in one of your earlier posts is actually and AF Combat Weatherman who was assigned to one of the SFGs.

Air Force Combat Controller - Actually an AF Combat Weatherman

i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/AFCCCarbine.jpg

tag

I know that in 1984 I fired both M-16 and carbine versions that were similiar to the M-4 I carried starting in 1996 when my unit bought 24 of them direct from Colt for ops in Bosnia at the time.

I agree that M-4 is used like Levis, Coke and anyother popular item in todays culture....it has become the name for collapsible stocked short barreled M-16 like weapons used by paratroopers or other special operations forces...so whether CAR-15 or M-4 I think it is nitpicking.  I think I have a pic of a CCT guy in dive training from my time going through the course that had a collapsible stocked weapon with fixed carrying handle and shortened barrel in 1984.  The first OFFICIAL use of the term M-4 I remember was when searching for the weapons purchase....as the old timer Gunneys and such were calling them CAR-15s.....but with the A2 sights, new rifle twist, removable carry handle, Weaver style top, forward assist and collapsible stock it was an M-4.  The other option I remember was the Commando version that had shorter barrel and went full auto rather than only burst mode...in addition to SEMI.

I may be off on my memory ...but then again I am getting old and did not give a shit what it was called as long as it was reliable and shot where I was aiming when I squeezed the trigger.  If you go to armory on 5th floor of Pentagon I bet they are still up there in racks I mounted on walls with safe full of handguns in corner by clearing barrel.....LOL

This beast of a thread should be tacked.....

just thinking.

Interesting thread.