Bill Alexander posted on my website that he will offer two new bullets in the Wolf 6.5 Grendel ammo. So I quick called him (540-639-8356) to get more information and he filled me in on all his latest plans for "tactical" Grendels.

Bullets

Here is Bill's quote regarding his new bullets:

"For 2006 I intend to offer two bullet types. The first is a 123-grain softpoint with around a 10 diameter ogive and a flat base. The odd weight comes from the metric bullet weight of 8.0 grams. The jacket has a tapered wall to aid expansion and it is a true guilding metal. Given the construction it might be a little stout for small deer but it should serve well as an all round hunting bullet.

"The second offering is a little more specialized. To provide a tactical alternative for Military/LE I am designing a match-type open-tip projectile, but with specific features to suit shorter-barrel weapons. At present I envisage the weight at 120 grains, which is working out well in the test weapons.

"BC should sit close to 0.490 which is obviously lower than the 0.547 we see from the Scenar bullet, but is somewhat compromised by the need to increase the terminal ballistics. While we are considering terminal ballistics, I will also not be sacrificing the ability of the projectile to counter intermediate targets just to gain additional fragmentation.

"Finally, to address the accuracy, I would observe that the factory that will produce this load also produces a substantial quantity of match and sniper grade ammunition."

Alexander Arms' new ammunition is due at SHOT 2006.

Magazines

The Grendel "tactical" magazine will be rated to have a 24-round capacity, will be made of spring steel, and will have a non-tilt follower. They are due to market mid-December.

Tactical Uppers

Alexander Arms plans two barrel lengths for their tactical uppers: a 14" and a 16" inch. These two barrels will be offered in two different operating systems: a standard Stoner direct gas-impingement and also a short-stroke gas-piston version. Both barrels will be chrome-lined and mil-spec. The 14" will be compatible with both the M203 and the HK XM320 grenade launchers, and will have its gas port in the carbine position. The 16" civilian version will have its gas port in the mid-length position.

Both uppers are slated to be priced around $550 and are due for sale late December this year or early 2006.

John

Would like to see a head-to-head comparison with 6.8 SPC from the same barrel lengths.  Interesting to see that new projectiles are emerging to address specific desired terminal performance characteristics.

I suspect Doc will chime in shortly, am looking forward to his thoughts.

We all want to know chronographed muzzle velocity data for the shorter barrels.

wow.......

A 16" mid length 6.5 upper at $550.  Velocity will defintiely drop some, but ti sounds a whole lot like we might have the AR equivalent of the 6.5 JDJ in a nice handy semi carbine....    If it'll launch a 120 at 2400'ish out of a 16", I just found my daughter's new deer rifle.

Bring 'em on!

Would think that velocity loss would not be great, considering how short the case is, as in efficient.

Is there going to be some Wolf plinking/practice ammo available in addition to match and SP rounds?

If AA can get FMJ practice ammo to the market faster and cheaper than 6.8, I know which one I'm getting.

Quoted: If AA can get FMJ practice ammo to the market faster and cheaper than 6.8, I know which one I'm getting.

Silver State Armory 6.8SPC 200 rounds / $116, today
Competition Shooting Sports 6.5 Grendel 200 rounds / $188, today

CA2VAyay wrote: "Is there going to be some Wolf plinking/practice ammo available in addition to match and SP rounds?"

As far as I'm aware, Wolf will only be making those two rounds for Alexander Arms. That ammo is supposed to meet AA's accuracy requirements, which, I believe, is 1 MOA. I guess you could also call those rounds "plinking/practice" ammo because they will be available in the millions and are planned at around $7 per box of 20.

John

Why did the 25 round magazine become a 24 round magazine?  Why did the $5 a box Wolf become $7 a box?  Will the terminal effects testing on this new ammo be done by someone who will publish the results?  Who's gas piston system is being used on the gas piston version?  

Quoted: Quoted: If AA can get FMJ practice ammo to the market faster and cheaper than 6.8, I know which one I'm getting. Silver State Armory 6.8SPC 200 rounds / $116, today Competition Shooting Sports 6.5 Grendel 200 rounds / $188, today

Nice.

Quoted: CA2VAyay wrote: "Is there going to be some Wolf plinking/practice ammo available in addition to match and SP rounds?" As far as I'm aware, Wolf will only be making those two rounds for Alexander Arms. That ammo is supposed to meet AA's accuracy requirements, which, I believe, is 1 MOA. I guess you could also call those rounds "plinking/practice" ammo because they will be available in the millions and are planned at around $7 per box of 20. John

Pricing makes these look VERY promising. If the uppers are reliable and the rounds are also reliable, accurate, and perform well in gelatin... I'll be sold.

Any idea as to how the SP load will perform through auto glass?

-Cap'n

Capn, Bill didn't said anything to me about terminals. From what he has said, I gather the SP is "intended" for big game hunting.

I know he is aware of the balance required between fragmentation in flesh and yet penetration of intermediate barriers such as auto glass, cinder-block construction, etc., in his design of his "tactical" OTM.

Give him a call to discuss? 540-639-8356.

John

can i buy just the 6.5 grendel barrel or must i purchase the whole upper?    I currently have a quick change barrel system and iwould like to use it with the grendel??   thanks  Adam

The Piston is from POF.

Rebel, I'm not with Alexander Arms so can't speak officially for them, but I'm quite sure they will NOT sell separate parts at this time, but only complete uppers. However, Bill once mentioned to me that separate parts are a possibility in the future, after the Grendel is well-established.

If you've got the LMT system, I'd check with them regarding their Grendel plans.

John

actually its an MGI  quick change barrel.    I did find a place that is selling a Grendel Barrel and Barrel extension (not sure about the bolt yet)  but they are kinda spendy.        Here is a link to where i found the grendel barrel.    http://www.stereotimes.com/leon/modular_ar_wearpon_platform.htm

AND        http://ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/ar15_conversion.html

Quoted: Capn, Bill didn't said anything to me about terminals. From what he has said, I gather the SP is "intended" for big game hunting. I know he is aware of the balance required between fragmentation in flesh and yet penetration of intermediate barriers such as auto glass, cinder-block construction, etc., in his design of his "tactical" OTM. Give him a call to discuss? 540-639-8356. John

Will do. It might be Friday before I have a chance though. I'll report back details then.

Tagged for when you have an answer.

Grendelizor:

PLEASE keep us informed of developments!!!

There is a section of the market that wants an improved performance cartridge for the AR platform.  The 6.8 offers some advantages for the tactical crowd, but many of us are not  members of the GIJoe crowd.  We are hunters.  Fragmentation is a BAD thing in our book.  The 6.5 Grendel, loaded with decent 120 grain  expanding (not fragmenting) soft points at 2400-2600 is just about ideal for a handy whitetail rifle...

There is only only problem:  I can buy a Remington Model Seven in .260 for $425.  I can also buy a 6.5 JDJ barrel from one of the custom makers for $325...  I cannot justify $800 for an upper.

Weight is also an issue.  Many of us are looking for a light handy deer rifle.  A 1000 yard capable 8.5 pound monster does not fit the bill....

I know the Grendel was intended as a long range cartridge.  Its 300+ yard performance is entirely irrelevant to much of the hunting crowd.  Give us a relatively light wieght 16-18" mid length upper at a reasonable cost ($500-550) and we can now have a decent handy little deer rifle with some real performance.  Such a lower-cost upper might not have the same accuracy level of the current match grade Grendel uppers, but lighter weight and lower cost come at a price...

Bring em on!!!  I'm gonna follow these developments!!!

Tagging this

Frozenny....how about a Barnes 110gr TSX at 2600 fps out a 18" barrel? They peel and not fragment.  Zak Smith ahs a whole buch of loads he has worked up just for deer season.

Simon

Quoted: actually its an MGI  quick change barrel.    I did find a place that is selling a Grendel Barrel and Barrel extension (not sure about the bolt yet)  but they are kinda spendy.        Here is a link to where i found the grendel barrel.    http://www.stereotimes.com/leon/modular_ar_wearpon_platform.htm AND        http://ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/ar15_conversion.html

I had no idea anyone besides AA was doing 6.5 Grendel barrels and extensions.  I have an MGI upper, and wouldn't mind having the Grendel round (already have 6.8).  If I remember right, you need to releave the ejection port a bit for the 6.5, but that shouldn't be a problem.

Quoted: The Piston is from POF.

Are you guessing or are you sure about that?  I ask because I recently ran into Bill Alexander at the range and your statement contradicts what I heard directly from him...

Frank said on the POF forum that 6.5 Grendel was one of the two calibres next to be released. I know it isn't LW....and very unlikely that HK would be offering the 416 in this before 6.8....so....OK...Ares.

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=206&t=148751

Simon

ETAA:- I deduced.......Put me out of my miseery and tell me who it is from then since you have it on good authority.

Quoted: Frank said on the POF forum that 6.5 Grendel was one of the two calibres next to be released. I know it isn't LW....and very unlikely that HK would be offering the 416 in this before 6.8....so....OK...Ares. Simon

There is a *lot* of Grendel activity going on right now in the AR-15 industry, so perhaps there are multiple piston designs on the way from different companies...

ETA:

ETA:- I deduced.......Put me out of muy msiery and tell me who it is from then sicne you have it on good authority.

No can do... I don't feel comfortable making something public knowledge unless I have permission.  (Although a conversation with some random guy at a public range probably has no expectation of privacy)  I shouldn't have said anything in the first place, but your info contradicted what I heard straight from the horse's mouth.  My guess is, as I stated above, that we both probably have correct info :)

Don't be so coy.....I agree that we should be seeing a raft of piston drives at SHOT 06 to be followed a flurry of lawsuits around June.

Simon

So if it's Ares, does that mean a 6.5 Shrike is coming out too?  Where are they getting the links?

Sorry I couldn't resist.

I really do hope the barrels become available.  A 16" Grendel is just what I want.  

Tagged for updates.

No....you want a 16" barrel, bolt, gas psiton system, 24-round mags and Cheap Wolf ammo!

Quoted: No....you want a 16" barrel, bolt, gas psiton system, 24-round mags and Cheap Wolf ammo!

AND, I want to figure out how to add the LW piston system to all of my barrels so I could quick-swap them into my MGI upper.  Is that order too tall?

tagged - I want to hear the answers to DevL's questions.  Certainly sounds like the 6.5 is trying to enter the 'tactical' market.  I am interested in seeing the results.

Forest, I guess I wasn't interested in responding to what I didn't think were sincere questions. Sometimes people like to jump in on a thread just to run it down and make snide remarks, which I don't have time for. But since it's you asking, here are my answers to DevL's questions (keep in mind they are my own, unofficial responses):

Q: Why did the 25 round magazine become a 24 round magazine?

A: As close as I am to the project, I'm not aware we were "promised" a 25-round magazine when AA was looking at high-capacity magazines. Be that as it may, it's possible one could fit 25-rounds but reliability will have to be watched. Similar to the 28 of 5.56 in a 30.

Q: Why did the $5 a box Wolf become $7 a box?

A: Since Wolf hasn't released pricing, as far as I know, we can only ballpark what they will charge. My source for the $7 figure is Competition Shooting Sports, who is yet closer to the whole thing than I, and is an AA dealer.

Q: Will the terminal effects testing on this new ammo be done by someone who will publish the results?

A: That I don't know.

Q: Who's gas piston system is being used on the gas piston version?

A: That I do know, but I have to apologize in advance and say "no comment" at this time. If you're really itching to know, call Bill Alexander and ask (540-639-8356), and if he tells you, fine, but it won't be me who betrays proprietary information.

John

Okay, what is the solution, I am also interested in a piston system that could be used with the MGI uppers and multi-caliber systems.

Quoted: Forest, I guess I wasn't interested in responding to what I didn't think were sincere questions. Sometimes people like to jump in on a thread just to run it down and make snide remarks, which I don't have time for. But since it's you asking, here are my answers to DevL's questions (keep in mind they are my own, unofficial responses): Q: Why did the 25 round magazine become a 24 round magazine? A: As close as I am to the project, I'm not aware we were "promised" a 25-round magazine when AA was looking at high-capacity magazines. Be that as it may, it's possible one could fit 25-rounds but reliability will have to be watched. Similar to the 28 of 5.56 in a 30. Q: Why did the $5 a box Wolf become $7 a box? A: Since Wolf hasn't released pricing, as far as I know, we can only ballpark what they will charge. My source for the $7 figure is Competition Shooting Sports, who is yet closer to the whole thing than I, and is an AA dealer. Q: Will the terminal effects testing on this new ammo be done by someone who will publish the results? A: That I don't know. Q: Who's gas piston system is being used on the gas piston version? A: That I do know, but I have to apologize in advance and say "no comment" at this time. If you're really itching to know, call Bill Alexander and ask (540-639-8356), and if he tells you, fine, but it won't be me who betrays proprietary information. John

I dont know why you considered these non sincere questions.  It was you that told me that there were 25 round mags coming. You told me Wolf ammo would be $5 a box.  You told me the terminal effects testing of the ammo could not be released because it was the intelectual property of the tester.

I was never interested in 6.5 nor read any of these threads till you let me shoot yours and the 1/3 MOA results at 200 yards convinced me this was something to look at more closely because of the new shorter barreled 6.5 uppers being released.  I am just looking for current, correct, up to date info to select the best tool for the job.  I am not really interested in a 6.8 for the rifle I want to build and I am looking at 6.5 AR15 vs 7.62 AR10 in a 16" piston driven upper for 600 yard and it shooting.  So far this is the only commercially produced item that gets me any of what I want and why I want as much data as I can get.

Im going to go out on a limb and guess the piston is a POF unit.

DevL, uh . . . I think you've got me confused with someone else, probably Arne Brennan of Competition Shooting Sports. My first name is John.

I only know of two incidents of 6.5 Grendel terminal testing, some was done by Alexander Arms and is briefly referred to in the "Development Notes" article on my website (www.65grendel.com/65g_devnotes.htm), and some was done by SOCOM specifically using the 144-grain Lapua FMJBT. SOCOM won't even release the full report of their results to AA, who are limited to what they personally witnessed. A partial report is here: www.65grendel.com/65g_fbi_tests.htm.

It's possible that more testing has been done of which I, personally, am not aware.

John

Grendelizor thanks for the info, it is appreciated.

Sorry for the mistake.

Not a problem, DevL, and I'm sorry for not realizing you were serious the first time. Hope my answers were clear.

John

DevL,

That was me and Arne (TX65) out at ASC.   You were firing Arne's rifle...  

I would add that things in the development stage often change a bit from prototype to final production.  For example, take the mags.  Everyone asks why 16 rounders?  Well, that is how many Grendel rounds fit and feed reliably within the exact same size of a USGI 20 round mag.

Now some speculation.  Possibly, 24 rounds in the space of a USGI 30 mag is what it took to insure 100% function.  25 was the original goal, but 24 is what worked best.  Different spring lengths, different spring tension etc.  I don't know in this case specifically, I just know that in products I have worked on that things are often tweeked a bit.  Heck, the Magpul PRS are a great example.  Send out the samples to the dealers, get some feedback, and tweek a bit before going into full production.

Concerning the Wolf pricing, it seems it depends on who you ask.  I think that Fortier had hinted at a similar price over 6 months ago.  Whether $5 or $7, the point is that it is not the $20/box that the current ammo costs.  

The GCS 16" uppers are due in Dec, last I heard.  There could always be a delay with all these custom parts, but I think that is Arne's goal.  I will gladly meet you at the range when mine arrives and we can put it through its paces.  We can even get Zak some of that chrono data he keeps asking for.  

Until then, you are more than welcome to shoot the bolt gun Grendels we have anytime when we are out at the range.  I got my loads for my new BR Grendel tweeked a bit, and here is the last 5 shot group I got with it, also at 200 yards (remember to remove the .264 caliber size from what the caliper shows):

   

 

tag

Quoted: DevL, That was me and Arne (TX65) out at ASC.   You were firing Arne's rifle...   I would add that things in the development stage often change a bit from prototype to final production.  For example, take the mags.  Everyone asks why 16 rounders?  Well, that is how many Grendel rounds fit and feed reliably within the exact same size of a USGI 20 round mag. Now some speculation.  Possibly, 24 rounds in the space of a USGI 30 mag is what it took to insure 100% function.  25 was the original goal, but 24 is what worked best.  Different spring lengths, different spring tension etc.  I don't know in this case specifically, I just know that in products I have worked on that things are often tweeked a bit.  Heck, the Magpul PRS are a great example.  Send out the samples to the dealers, get some feedback, and tweek a bit before going into full production. Concerning the Wolf pricing, it seems it depends on who you ask.  I think that Fortier had hinted at a similar price over 6 months ago.  Whether $5 or $7, the point is that it is not the $20/box that the current ammo costs.   The GCS 16" uppers are due in Dec, last I heard.  There could always be a delay with all these custom parts, but I think that is Arne's goal.  I will gladly meet you at the range when mine arrives and we can put it through its paces.  We can even get Zak some of that chrono data he keeps asking for.   Until then, you are more than welcome to shoot the bolt gun Grendels we have anytime when we are out at the range.  I got my loads for my new BR Grendel tweeked a bit, and here is the last 5 shot group I got with it, also at 200 yards (remember to remove the .264 caliber size from what the caliper shows): img7.imageshack.us/img7/5880/img01714lp.th.jpg

Holy crap that is a sub .04 MOA group!  I have never seen a group less than .1 MOA before.

Quoted: DevL, That was me and Arne (TX65) out at ASC.   You were firing Arne's rifle...   I would add that things in the development stage often change a bit from prototype to final production.  For example, take the mags.  Everyone asks why 16 rounders?  Well, that is how many Grendel rounds fit and feed reliably within the exact same size of a USGI 20 round mag. Now some speculation.  Possibly, 24 rounds in the space of a USGI 30 mag is what it took to insure 100% function.  25 was the original goal, but 24 is what worked best.  Different spring lengths, different spring tension etc.  I don't know in this case specifically, I just know that in products I have worked on that things are often tweeked a bit.  Heck, the Magpul PRS are a great example.  Send out the samples to the dealers, get some feedback, and tweek a bit before going into full production. Concerning the Wolf pricing, it seems it depends on who you ask.  I think that Fortier had hinted at a similar price over 6 months ago.  Whether $5 or $7, the point is that it is not the $20/box that the current ammo costs.   The GCS 16" uppers are due in Dec, last I heard.  There could always be a delay with all these custom parts, but I think that is Arne's goal.  I will gladly meet you at the range when mine arrives and we can put it through its paces.  We can even get Zak some of that chrono data he keeps asking for.   Until then, you are more than welcome to shoot the bolt gun Grendels we have anytime when we are out at the range.  I got my loads for my new BR Grendel tweeked a bit, and here is the last 5 shot group I got with it, also at 200 yards (remember to remove the .264 caliber size from what the caliper shows): img7.imageshack.us/img7/5880/img01714lp.th.jpg

Nice shootin', Tex!

.

It is not so much me as it is the rifle and the cartridge.   DevL was there the first day I was shooting it, so he knows it is not an AR.  For those who obviously don't know, basically, the rifle is a benchrest quality rifle and it should shoot about that well, given a cartridge that is capable.  To me, this helps to show the true short range (200-300 yard) accuracy potential of the Grendel, and that was part of the reason I had it built.   When you remove the rifle from the equation, you can really see what the cartridge itself is capable of.  

My intention with that particular rifle is to try and compete in BR for Score matches.  This means head to head with the 6PPC and 30BR.   I think that the Grendel just might be a worthy competitor...

The real beauty of the deal, IMO, is that that particular load is AR safe.  I would never expect that accuracy from the AR platform, but at least now I know it is not the loads fault.  It sure makes my reloading simple as well.      

For anyone interested, here is the rifle and the specs:

Kelbly's Panda RBLP action
Krieger 23" 14 twist barrel (bolt action match chamber - Speedy's reamer)
Kelbly's BR stock
Jewell 1.5oz trigger
Kelbly's Scope rings
Weaver 36x BR scope
Smith was www.sgyrifles.com - Speedy Gonzales (BR Hall of Fame Member)

Quoted: DevL, That was me and Arne (TX65) out at ASC.   You were firing Arne's rifle...   I would add that things in the development stage often change a bit from prototype to final production.  For example, take the mags.  Everyone asks why 16 rounders?  Well, that is how many Grendel rounds fit and feed reliably within the exact same size of a USGI 20 round mag. Now some speculation.  Possibly, 24 rounds in the space of a USGI 30 mag is what it took to insure 100% function.  25 was the original goal, but 24 is what worked best.  Different spring lengths, different spring tension etc.  I don't know in this case specifically, I just know that in products I have worked on that things are often tweeked a bit.  Heck, the Magpul PRS are a great example.  Send out the samples to the dealers, get some feedback, and tweek a bit before going into full production. Concerning the Wolf pricing, it seems it depends on who you ask.  I think that Fortier had hinted at a similar price over 6 months ago.  Whether $5 or $7, the point is that it is not the $20/box that the current ammo costs.   The GCS 16" uppers are due in Dec, last I heard.  There could always be a delay with all these custom parts, but I think that is Arne's goal.  I will gladly meet you at the range when mine arrives and we can put it through its paces.  We can even get Zak some of that chrono data he keeps asking for.   Until then, you are more than welcome to shoot the bolt gun Grendels we have anytime when we are out at the range.  I got my loads for my new BR Grendel tweeked a bit, and here is the last 5 shot group I got with it, also at 200 yards (remember to remove the .264 caliber size from what the caliper shows): img7.imageshack.us/img7/5880/img01714lp.th.jpg

Post a pic of the moving backer, then I'll get interested!

Awesome rifle and group.

Quoted: Post a pic of the moving backer, then I'll get interested!

I sure wish I could...    Unfotunatly, this was in casual conditions, not at a match.

Kind of like hitting the hole-in-one with only your 5 year old to witness

I have only had her out 3 times now, 116 rounds down the pipe total.  I hope to participate in the next match here in the Houston area though.  

I have only just seen this thread and though I might add a few details although the origional post by Grendelizer is rather too complete for my comfort. In future I may assume he is tapping the phone calls for reference latter.

We are indeed working on two offerings with Wolf ammunition and I would appreciate constructive comments. For the hunting crowd we have a 123g flat base soft point. I did not rush to a boat tail design as I suspect that most will agree that it is not ethical to take shots at the extreme edge of a cartridges capability and the flat base allows the back of the bullet to be a little more beefed up to help with penetration. The "tactical" load is indeed a 120 grain bullet and is very much in the style of the OTM design, although I am using certain aspects of the European style bullets to promote desirable terminal effects. After careful consideration I feel that there is somewhat of a compromise to be reached in the design of a tactical bullet. It is my opinion that the ability to penetrate intermediate targets including major appendages should have an equal consideration to that of the bullets ability to fragment. This said fragmentation must be present but I will look for closer to 18" of penetration rather than 12".  Accuracy is a paramout performance attribute in both hunting and tactical loads.

To reply quickly to Zak concerning the muzzle velocities, the 16" M4 style carbine delivers between 2500 and 2570 fps depending upon the powder type employed. These loads are at the factory pressure level of 49,500 psi. I qualify the powder as this is not finalized and we are awaiting new offerings from both overseas and domestic manufacturers. What I do find a little annoying is that I cannot presently find a US cannister grade that will duplicate these loads which must be sumwhat of a disapointment to handloaders, but given the predicted cost of ammo I do not see this as such a major impediment. Now before anyone does a quick oranges for apples comparison to their pet 6.8 handload I would observe that I can pump velocities up to close to 2700 fps and they look safe in the rifle and operate well even on FA. Checking the same in the pressure breach the disclaimer would read "Safe in my rifle if fired while in a bunker using 30 yards of string".

Carbines, yes there will be carbines, and high capacity magazines to feed them. I have a 16" unit with mid length funiture and a 14" set up. I will get Grendelizer or TX65 to post photos as soon as I have something that has the final finish on it.

Finally, a little clarification. POF is indeed considering the Grendel and I believe that Frank is working on a model now. I have a different unit for the AA guns as I think people appreciate the chance to consider options. Do not make statements about H&K unless you are in posession of the facts, and there may now be another design beyond those mentioned that is entering the market.  The Grendel is not solely optimised for VLD type bullet designs, it feeds perfectly in FA fire modes has a demonstratable reliability and is not just a paper punching unit.

SimonTan do not use my name in a derogatory manner in your industry forum.

Bill Alexander