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Posted: 7/10/2005 2:41:55 PM EDT
[#1]
Stainless, I use the Dieter exclusively. I ordered the 2 of the TD to try as an alternative. The 2 I received moved ~+10deg off axis the axis of the barrel. This means side to side. This was on carbines with KAC RAs2, DD9.0, and LARue. I got replacements that are better, but have decided the extra money for the Dieter is worth it. I know they will work 100% of the time. The only down-side is the hex wrench if you need to remove them. But one is part of my kit anyway. |
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Posted: 7/10/2005 3:33:46 PM EDT
[#2]
I would echo pcurtis on this one... If you have a tendency to move things around on your rifle a lot, go with an easy to move model. The Deiter is as solid as a rock but to move it around you need a wrench. I also stripped out my first Deiter cross-bar even after reading the instructions (the instructions basically said don't tighten too fast or you'll strip the threads). I called customer service and they sent out a new cross-bar for $20. Spooky |
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Posted: 7/10/2005 5:44:29 PM EDT
[#3]
my problem is... i currently HAVE the tango down. and now i wiggles a lot. i didnt even swap it a lot.
i cant stand the wiggle. i was hoping the wiggle would be non existant with the Dieter. also, i have a larue ras, so i KNOW the rail is in spec. another problem is.. after EXTENDED periods of fire... the wiggle is even worse. the heat makes the metal spring in the grip soften, and it gets loose. |
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Posted: 7/10/2005 6:11:43 PM EDT
[#4]
The KAC one does not wiggle. I still am not sure why vertical grips are useful. The best thing I have done with mine was rest it on the table to shoot with it as a monopod. I have also used mine as a palm-rest.
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Posted: 7/10/2005 6:25:41 PM EDT
[#5]
The CQD/Dieter is rock solid. It might tweak your rail before it broke loose. Its a hoss...
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Posted: 7/10/2005 6:30:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Hold your hands up in front of you. No, like you're holding a regular rifle. your stong hand is in a fist as if holding the pistol grip, and the weak hand is open, palm up, as if supporting the forend. Feel the stress in the forearm of your weak arm? In order for your palm to face that way you've bent your weak wrist back almost as far as it will go. Now, take your weak hand and move it to mimic the way your stong hand is. See how much more range of motion you have now? If you only ever shoot from a bench, then you're likely never going to appreciate a vertical foregrip and would probably be better off spending the money on a bipod. If you attend training classes or participate in dynamic competitions (i.e. ones that require movement from a static firing line) then it's a no-brainer. |
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Posted: 7/10/2005 10:30:25 PM EDT
[#7]
More to the point, fire a standard forearm grip in full auto, then fire it with a verticle grip, then you'll know why the military wants verticle grips.
I'm not liking the temperature problems with the Dieter. No, I'm not talking about heat transfer and dissapation. I mean in Alaska, how is that grip going to feel at -20F? How about under the sun at 90+ degrees? The plastic grips are more comfortable for me to touch than metal. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 1:41:37 PM EDT
[#8]
sorry for the delay. been gone a while. i thought bicycle inner tube would work well here. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 1:58:16 PM EDT
[#9]
AK_Mike;
Can't speak for 20 below...and hope to never be able to!  But I can say that at 100+ here in summer, a piece of bicycle innertube will do fine. Unless the rifle is directly IN the sun, even this is not really necessary IMO.
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Posted: 7/17/2005 1:59:22 PM EDT
[#10]
thought a couple of pix would help the discussion
The Dieter  and the TangoDown (bolt and cam pin not included)  |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 2:02:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Shoot, where AK-Mike is from 20 below is a pretty nice day! Spooky |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 2:14:01 PM EDT
[#12]
I have a Dieter foreward grip on my M-4, and a Tango Down on my A-4. Both are very comfortable, but I've used the Dieter a lot more since it's on the rifle I've used for classes. I have noticed that it gets very hot in the sun, even in warm spring weather here in Jax, FL. At one class, it was hot enough to feel a little unpleasant and difficult to hold on to (but so was the rest of the metal part of the rifle). I try to keep it out of direct sunlight when not in use, but it does absorb the heat. I ended up buying a pair of Oakley gloves for the next time I use it for an extended period in the hot/sunny weather.
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Posted: 7/17/2005 3:02:25 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 7/17/2005 5:20:27 PM EDT
[#14]
+1, all the TDs i've tried, while comfortable in the grip, practical, and lightweight, are fairly wobbly. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 5:34:36 PM EDT
[#15]
My Dieter will NOT tighten on my MRP rail
 I haven't tried it on my KAC rails yet, but I purposely bought it for my shorty MRP, and it is either to wide, or my MRP rail is to narrow. I can see the difference in the widths of the two when i put the Dieter on the rail. I had planned on using it in conjunction with a Surefire, with a pressure pad on the MRP, but instead, I am using my larger surefire (the one that is a "L" shaped foregrip/light--I forget the model #) It definitely seems to be a tough little grip, but it isn't going to work in the way I had hoped. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 6:18:27 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 7/17/2005 6:27:15 PM EDT
[#17]
I havent tried it on my KAC yet. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 6:36:12 PM EDT
[#18]
OK, I just tried it on my M4 RAS, and it does tighten on it. I guess my MRP rail is more narrow than my KAC rail.
And yes, I did tighten it as much as possible on the MRP. I will take the Dieter and MRP home and snap a pic to post later. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 9:48:01 PM EDT
[#19]
The Tangodown on my M73 has absolutly no movment- but it sure is a bitch to get on and off.
Does anyone make a vert grip you don't have to slide on the rails? Like one that clamps on, similar to how the detachable carry handle attaches? |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 11:26:03 PM EDT
[#20]
TD. I use them on my two rigs as well as the rigs I have built for friends. The only time I have felt wobble, is after I have removed one a few times; they have all been mounted to YHM rails.
They mount up tight as hell, in fact it takes two people to get one on. But once they are on, they are not coming off, and I don't see the point in a QD vert grip. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 3:48:06 AM EDT
[#21]
I have used the KAC and the TD. The TD is rock solid on my LaRue 7.0. I like it a lot. The KAC is slightly smaller and might work better with smaller hands.
I have no experience with the Dieter since I've never been able to talk myslef into buying one. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 4:08:27 AM EDT
[#22]
I have and sell both. The TD is my favorite (have 3 of them). I have never seen any wiggle from them on ANY of my LT rails.
C4 www.gandrtactical.com |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 4:14:35 AM EDT
[#23]
While I do like the tape switch recess on the TD, I still prefer the KAC grip. I have had it on my carbine for thousands of rounds nad I have never had to tighten it and it has never moved. A VFG that uses buttons or springs or whatever for tension will never be as secure as one that you can crank down as much as needed. If I wanted to take off the KAC for soem reason, I would not have to put the rifle down to do so.
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Posted: 7/18/2005 4:53:05 AM EDT
[#24]
I guees you haven't seen the little PLASTIC nub in the KAC mounts wear down (or snap off) have ya? C4 |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 5:08:50 AM EDT
[#25]
Thankfully I ordered a Dieter last night. I was wanting to compare the TD to the Dieter but I decided the Dieter looked more solid. My only complaint about it is the notch for the lamp switch (I don't have a tac light) with no way of adding something to make it completely round. This is hardly a showstopper, just an "annoyance".
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Posted: 7/18/2005 5:18:04 AM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 7/18/2005 5:29:21 AM EDT
[#27]
Which one weighs more? Is the dieter comfortable to grip?
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Posted: 7/18/2005 5:33:44 AM EDT
[#28]
CQD weighs the most. I find the CQD comfortable to grip if you have a tape switch in the slot. C4 |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 5:41:35 AM EDT
[#29]
What if you dont? It doesnt look very ergonomically comfortable. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 6:04:06 AM EDT
[#30]
In addition, I also wrapped the grip in cord. It made the grip easier to hold onto when it got hot and helped to fill in the tape switch gap. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 6:24:12 AM EDT
[#31]
i really like my TD grips. have one mounted on an ggandg rail, and another mounted on an uzi via the mount i bought from barrelexchange on the uzi talk boards.
i haven't had any issues with wobble on either. i'm amazed that other people have had this problem. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 6:30:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Most all the TD VGs I have seen wiggle. I swapped mine out for the Fobus VG. Its ugly, and you have to install them with a hammer - but its solid as a rock, and the slimness is more comfortable for me.
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Posted: 7/18/2005 8:03:48 AM EDT
[#33]
Me, too. I have a TD on a RAS2 and one on a MRP and they're both rock solid. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 8:37:19 AM EDT
[#34]
The 2 TD VFGs I'm currently using a wee bit of side to side wobble but I don't even notice it when I'm shooting.
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Posted: 7/18/2005 8:57:56 AM EDT
[#35]
I have two TSs on YMH rails and they are T-I-G-H-t ! No wobble whatsoever.
Very nice VG. I have a KAC VG on a KAC RIS which is nice, too. The VG doesn't wobble, but the lower rail on the RIS does. |
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