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Posted: 6/24/2004 4:48:56 AM EDT
[#1]
I've never had a single problem at all ever with my stock Bushmaster bolt and carrier.
For what you paid for that bolt and carrier, I'd expect the same. Send it back to the dealer you got it from and see about getting another one. |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 4:54:58 AM EDT
[#2]
According to what you described it does sound like an ammo problem. If possible test the SA ammo with a standard bolt and see what happens. If possible try a coupl of other ammo types with the LMT bolt and see if it works better.
I'm thinking you got a bad batch of SA but until you try it with a standard bolt it's hard to say...  Good luck and keep us posted. |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 5:01:21 AM EDT
[#3]
Never had a problem with my Colt or RRA stock bolts. I'm not bashing the enhanced bolts, but i just don't see the need for the average shooting civilian. I may get the enhanced bolt someday just for kicks, but I want to see results here first. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I saw another thread regarding the same issue last week or so.
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Posted: 6/24/2004 5:18:28 AM EDT
[#4]
I was running a standard bolt in this rifle with no problems prior to acquiring the LMT. Same ammo, same mags.
I contacted Chip Witt at LMT and he asked to have me send them the bolt for inspection and repair/replacement if necessary. Very courtious. I let you know how it goes. |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 5:24:39 AM EDT
[#5]
Solution looking for a problem or solution causing a problem?
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Posted: 6/24/2004 5:33:30 AM EDT
[#6]
MID-SOUTH SHOOTING ( weaponstraining.com ) QUIT USING S.A. AMMO FOR RELIABILITY REASONS YEARS AGO.
I'D ALSO AVOID BLACK HILLS 55 GR RELOADS IN SHORTER BARRELS. WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 5:35:34 AM EDT
[#7]
Sounds like a problem with the extractor/extractor springs, the ammo is probably gripping the chamber walls longer and the weak engagement of the extractor is not pulling it out and falling off the rim - send it back.
HFG |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 5:36:48 AM EDT
[#8]
Hmmm... apreciate that info, Wes. Before sending the bolt to LMT I'll hit the range tonight with some 77g Black Hills (non-NATO load) reloads and a standard bolt.
HipFiredGun - appreciate your knowledgeable feedback as well. I'm very surprised by the extraction problems, given the dual springs and apparently heavy duty extractor. Other info: 5.56 chamber, dremmeled M4-type feedramps. About 300 rounds through this upper before adding the LMT group. |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 7:07:04 AM EDT
[#9]
We've seen a few LMT bolts with poor machining on the extractor claw which when faced with tight brass fell off the rim and failed to extract, once corrected no further problems. The twin springs do not provide any greater spring tension, they just resist fatigue and failure longer.
Glad if I can help. HFG |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 7:54:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Feedingcannibal-
YOU MIGHT ALSO WANT TO DO A GOOD VISUAL INSPECTION OF YOUR CHAMBER WALLS. CLEAN? NICELY POLISHED? CHROMED LINED? OR NOT? WES |
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Posted: 6/25/2004 5:05:01 AM EDT
[#11]
Update 6/25/04 -
Took the rifle to the range last night. Same rifle, same mags, same ammo, same LMT carrier. Only this time I used a standard bolt (DPMS manufacture) with an o ring extractor enhancement. Ran through 8 thirty round mag dumps (semiauto). Zero hicups. No FTE. No problems whatsoever. Looks like I've narrowed it down to the bolt. The LMT bolt is in the mail to LMT for inspection. MSTN - Chrome chamber. Clean rifle. Walls look fine. |
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Posted: 6/25/2004 5:07:44 AM EDT
[#12]
Glad to hear you narrowed down the problem.
Would like to hear LMT's comments on your bolt. |
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Posted: 6/25/2004 5:13:43 AM EDT
[#13]
The same experience with our LMT failure to extract because the springs are weak. Even if there are two springs and our test was done full-auto for military use.
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Posted: 6/25/2004 6:04:34 AM EDT
[#14]
I've seen 2 LMT bolts with springs so weak that the extractor pin just fell out.
Sent them back, no problem. |
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Posted: 6/25/2004 6:11:41 AM EDT
[#15]
Got to watch the LMT QA issues - hopefully they will learn, are you listening out there?
HFG |
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Posted: 6/25/2004 6:47:17 AM EDT
[#16]
Maybe Wolf will come out with some after market springs for the LMT Enhanced Bolt???
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Posted: 6/25/2004 7:35:16 AM EDT
[#17]
Why should they? For what LMT charges for that bolt and the reliability they promise, there should be no reason to be changing out those springs for a LONG time. |
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Posted: 6/25/2004 7:49:47 AM EDT
[#18]
Why should they? For what LMT charges for that bolt and the reliability they promise, there should be no reason to be changing out those springs for a LONG time.
This is true.I myself have had no probelms what so ever with my LMT Bolt.But there must be some springs that shouldnt of made it to customers bolts.I figure Wolf makes them for everything else why not the LMT Bolt. I think this problem with the springs is not very wide spread this is only about the 2nd case Ive heard of.But I could be wrong. |
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Posted: 6/25/2004 7:58:44 AM EDT
[#19]
Hmm.......maybe I'll send mine back to have them take a look too. My extractor pin was awfully loose.
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Posted: 6/28/2004 4:31:03 AM EDT
[#20]
Tried a Colt bolt & carrier in the same rig over the weekend. No problems.
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Posted: 6/28/2004 4:52:08 AM EDT
[#21]
The LMT bolt is a problem where no problem existed.
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Posted: 6/28/2004 5:18:17 AM EDT
[#22]
yup, i have had zero problems with stock bushy stuff |
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Posted: 6/28/2004 6:40:04 AM EDT
[#23]
I finally went to the range yesterday to try out the LBC Bolt carrier and LMT enhanced bolt combo, it worked like a charm, the recycling is a bit better than my original Colt M4 combo (I swapped them back and forth to feel the difference), no hiccups, no extraction problems whatsoever for the whole time out there and a breeze to clean too! Man, I love it!
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Posted: 6/28/2004 6:42:37 AM EDT
[#24]
Yes, I like the easy cleanup as well, which is why I'm going to send it back for a once over. I have some intermittent FTE problems, but they could be mag related --- so I am checking ALL scenarios. Starting with sending the bolt and carrier back. |
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Posted: 6/28/2004 8:57:21 AM EDT
[#25]
Glad to hear yours is working so well. I know there are alot of these enhanced bolts out there in very capable hands, but I have heard of a few having FTE problems since I stated looking into this. I think the LMT enhanced bolt is a good thing. But, as is the case with all machinery, problems can and do happen. I just got unlucky I think. If LMT sends it back repaired or replaced and it runs, I'll be a happy sonofabitch. |
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Posted: 6/28/2004 11:08:47 AM EDT
[#26]
Feedingcannibal,
I hope everything will be as you expected. From what I heard, LMT is pretty good at making things right for their customers. Good luck bro. 
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Posted: 7/12/2004 7:21:02 AM EDT
[#27]
Update 7/12/04.
Called Chip Whitt today. Chip is sending out a replacement LMT enhanced bolt today, which he said has been test fired. I asked about the original bolt that I sent to him, and he said they didn't have any problems with it. Chip was very cordial. Damn puzzling. As I said earlier (and told Chip), I used different ammo and 2 different bolt groups in this upper. The only problems I had were when running the LMT. I should have the bolt in a few days and will post with results. |
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Posted: 7/13/2004 5:06:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Update 7/13/04:
Received a new LMT enhanced bolt from Chip today. Results are not good. First 30 rounds, rapid fire semiauto: no problem. 8 FTE in the next 30 rounds. Firing both slow and fast. Ran 60 more rounds through the rifle using a Colt bolt & carrier. No problems whatsoever. Same mag, same ammo (SA surplus). I'll be calling Chip tomorrow morning. The only thing I can think of at this time is something with the LMT carrier - ? If anyone has any suggestions, I would be more than happy to hear them. |
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Posted: 7/13/2004 5:09:59 PM EDT
[#29]
You got me beat.I have over a thousand rds through mine without a hiccup.
I guess focus on the carrier??
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Posted: 7/13/2004 5:31:14 PM EDT
[#30]
I used a RRA carrier and LMT enhanced bolt and have no problems at in about 2000 rds.
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Posted: 7/13/2004 5:39:25 PM EDT
[#31]
Well, I would have to say that your rifle doesn't like LMT. Sounds to me that something isn't mixing well.
Edit: What is really weird is that you can get about 60 rounds through before it has problems. |
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Posted: 7/14/2004 4:54:09 AM EDT
[#32]
What carrier are you using? Is it the standard LMT carrier or the enhanced one? You might want to check the gas key screws as LMT carriers have poor staking (in-fact, we had one come loose last week), this will cause the symptoms you are describing. If you are using the enhanced carrier, then the problem relates to lack of gas pressure.
HFG |
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Posted: 7/14/2004 5:20:57 AM EDT
[#33]
HipFiredGun -
Interesting that you should mention that. I'm using a standard LMT carrier. I just got off the phone with Chip, and he suggested swapping the LMT bolt with the Colt carrier, which I will do this evening. Again Chip was very cordial. He was quite puzzled, as was I. FYI, Chip does not think that the upper is an issue (I gave him the specs of the carbine). I will swap the carriers this evening and report back. |
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Posted: 7/15/2004 4:31:59 AM EDT
[#34]
Update 7/15/04 -
Took my LMT enhanced bolt & standard LMT M16 carrier to the range last night along with my Colt setup, as we spoke of. Here are the results. I was using South African surplus 5.56 ammo (55 grain, circa 1989) with two 30 round Centerline magazines. 14.5 inch barrel, chrome chamber & bore. LMT bolt with Colt M16 carrier - 90 rounds fired, one failure to extract at round 62. _______________________________ Colt bolt with LMT carrier - 60 rounds fired, no problems. _________________________________ LMT bolt with Colt carrier again - 30 rounds, no problems. ___________________________________ LMT bolt with LMT carrier - 30 rounds fired with a failure to extract at round 2. Attempted to fire another 30 rounds - failure to extract at round 2, 3, 4, and 10. At round 10 I ended up closing the bolt on a spent casing which was in the chamber. The bolt then became stuck in the chamber and I had to push it out by pushing a cleaning rod through the barrel. I didn't try the LMT/LMT combination again after this. _______________________________ LMT bolt with Colt carrier - 110 rounds fired, no problems. So, in summary, I had one failure to eject with the LMT enhanced bolt when using the Colt carrier in 230 rounds, which is a failure rate of .43%, which I am willing to chaulk up to simple variance given the 15 year old ammunition. Using the LMT/LMT combination, I had 5 failure to ejects in 40 rounds, which is a failure rate of 12.5%. It is interesting that I did not have any extraction problems with the Colt bolt and LMT carrier combination. In any case, it appears that the LMT carrier in conjunction with the LMT enhanced bolt is the problem. Given that I had only 1 FTE out of 230 rounds with the LMT enhanced bolt in the Colt carrier, combined with Chip's testing of the bolt before it was sent it to me, I think it is safe to say that the LMT carrier is at fault. It is also interesting that I had the same exact issues as two prior attempts with the LMT group - once the carrier got hot & dirty, the extraction problems began. |
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Posted: 7/15/2004 4:48:38 PM EDT
[#35]
had the same problem with my enhanced bolt. sent it also back to lmt and got it back with new springs. spring failed about the 1.5k mark. so far i have about 400 rounds cycled . waiting to see what happens.
meat |
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Posted: 7/15/2004 5:05:38 PM EDT
[#36]
I guess we now know how it is "enhanced"
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Posted: 7/15/2004 5:09:35 PM EDT
[#37]
I think one of the extractor springs mist have been shorter than the other - I've heard some hearsay regarding this problem.
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Posted: 7/16/2004 12:40:31 AM EDT
[#38]
All my LMT bolts and carriers (standard and M16 enchanced) are running like a top, I'm a happy camper.
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Posted: 7/16/2004 4:37:22 AM EDT
[#39]
Update 7/16/04 -
Spoke with Chip again yesterday. He says the LMT enhanced bolt was designed to be used with M855 (62 grain) ammo, and will only work with ammunition of that weight or heavier. When I asked about the LMT enhanced bolt working in the Colt carrier (with 55 grain), he said the Colt stuff has more tolerance than the LMT.
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Posted: 7/16/2004 5:09:48 AM EDT
[#40]
That's interesting, hadn't heard that one. Oh well, haven't had a problem with 55gr Q3131A out of my LMT enhanced bolt yet.
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Posted: 7/16/2004 5:13:40 AM EDT
[#41]
You'd think that all these vendors would know that kind of thing before they sold it.....why is there no mention of this on any of the ads for these bolts and carriers???
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Posted: 7/16/2004 5:15:45 AM EDT
[#42]
I will also be doing some testing this Sunday.
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Posted: 7/16/2004 5:28:43 AM EDT
[#43]
Hmmm, maybe it's just me but I'd like a logical explanation on how a bolt or bolt carrier is tuned or designed to shoot a certain bullet weight...
I'd also like to know how many other people are experiencing the same issue. To me it sounds like FC got a lemon and that the carrier is probably the culprit. Edited to correct spelling... 
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Posted: 7/16/2004 5:43:35 AM EDT
[#44]
 Uh, I guess this is where I say "me too".... |
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Posted: 7/16/2004 1:33:45 PM EDT
[#45]
When the LMT bolt first came out I was obsessed that I HAVE to have one to increase reliability. But f*ck that now, not to mention my stock Colt shit has run %100 with anywhere from 4-7000 rounds through it. I also wanted and LMT upper but after seeing somebodie's post that showed a fronsite ear that was bent weird and paper thin, I think I will stick to the tried and true companies.
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Posted: 7/16/2004 2:07:39 PM EDT
[#46]
A big fat ROGER on that. You know, it's a free country (relatively) and guys can spend what they want to, where they want to, but I just don't see the common sense in spending relatively big bucks on stuff that, even if it works 100%, still doesn't do a damn thing that the original part doesn't do. Sorry, I'll stick with my stock Colt bolts and carriers. The one in my 28 year old class 3d SP1 is still going strong 
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Posted: 7/16/2004 2:54:31 PM EDT
[#47]
Fuck that shit.. Take your Colt bolt, add a Crane spring and donut, and a Colt or RRA shrouded carrier.
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Posted: 7/16/2004 2:55:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Was the LMT bolt group designed to increase reliability in full auto fire, or semi auto? Anyone know if it was meant to be used with a particular gas system length/buffer combination?
One of the big problems with running full auto with a carbine buffer and gas system is the gun cycles harder and faster, and can do so faster than the magazine can feed it or the spent casing has time to eject. I had to go to a heavier than normal buffer in my CAV-16 (company property, but mine to use for demos) to lower the cyclic rate. I mostly shoot federal XM193 ans Winchester Q3131A, both these types of ammo are loaded hotter than most commercially available .223 and the cyclic rate is noticeably different than say when using Winchester Walmart value pack ammunition From what I have seen the LMT enhanced bolt carrier has increased mass...I can see this being a good thing when using the carbine buffer and carbine gas system, especially in full-auto. Using it with a full length buffer, rifle length gas system that are already making the action cycle more smoothly seems like it would be less of an advantage and could potentially slow down the cycle too much, especially when combined with more weakly loaded ammunition. I'd be interested in trying one just to see how it effects the characteristics of full auto fire. |
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Posted: 7/16/2004 3:29:39 PM EDT
[#49]
As many have already stated in other threads. The LMT 'enhanced' bolt is just another 'solution' to a nonexistent problem and in some cases a problem when there was none. Stick with the tried and tested std. bolt and carrier.
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Posted: 7/16/2004 4:57:09 PM EDT
[#50]
The SA stuff can be HOT... I had the same problem in a bushy M4 upper. try different ammo. Hot ammo will make the extractor slip off the spent case. If 77grain is fine but you SA is NOT working its the ammo.
LittleJacek |
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