I'm in the military and I'm getting ready to once again qualify with my M16A2...  I am getting quite tired of having the sight in my weapon at 25m and I'm wondering where my bullets are going to be landing at 25m with a 50m zero...  Shooting into the dirt at 50m and way too high at 300m is getting old.

I'll be using 62gr. M855 out of a 20" chromelined barrel...

Also, any help on what the exact trajectory of my bullets are out of the above weapon system with a 50m zero would be handy!

Thanks!

A battle sight zero at 25m would allow for centermass shots out to 300m.  You should be aiming at centermass on the silouette, if the rifle was properly zeroed at 25m.  Anything beyond 250m you could aim a bit high and should still hit the target.  If you're in the dirt at 50m with a 25m zero, then either your aim point is wrong or the weapon is not properly zeroed (or you're a lousy shot, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one).

Karl

Quoted: A battle sight zero at 25m would allow for centermass shots out to 300m.

B.S. a battle sight at 25M using the 8/3+1 method puts the round high at 300M - at midrange it is possible tol MISS the target with a COM hold.



Above is a chart of an M4 shooting M193 (M855 isn't too different).  The Yellow line represents the track of a 50 yard zero.  The purple line is the track of the 25M zero - the blue is a 25 yard zero.  Range is in Yards.

As you can see with a 50y zero the bullet stays within 2" of the point of aim from 8M to 220M.  With only a 6" drop at 300y.

This will easily put you 'On Target' out to 300M.  

Note the military zero is hitting some 6" hight at 100y, and over 8" high from 160y to 260y - you could easily miss a prone target with the military zero.

Quoted: I'll be using 62gr. M855 out of a 20" chromelined barrel...

Ok I pulled up the chart for your weapon/ammo combo.

The Mil zero with that combo doesn't get near the 8" till its out to 225y or so.



But not with the 50y/200M zeroing method you still keep that nice flat trajectory. Notice at 300y you're only 4" low.

FYI that Teal like is the USMC 36y/300M zero.  Which isn't too bad and doesn't require you to change how the sights bottom out.

Improved Battlesight Zero by LTC Santose

Also, any help on what the exact trajectory of my bullets are out of the above weapon system with a 50m zero would be handy!

Go to the above site & sign up as a member.  In the Documents section (Test Results folder) there is a file called Ammo Track.XLS - which has the trajectory tables for your rifle/ammo using a variety of zeroing methods.  There are datapoints every 25y; from 0 to 500y.

"A battle sight zero at 25m would allow for centermass shots out to 300m. "

I have gone against "the manual" on this for quite a long time, way before I heard of the "Santose Zero", though I did it just like that.  A simple look at ballistics charts, those nice ones above, shows the fallacy of the 25 yds or 25 meter zero (not much difference at that range both are bad).  

If you must sight in at 25, do so such that you are one inch low at 25 yds, which should put you very close to zero at 50, and about 1 3/4" high at 100 yds.

Do the Santose thing.  It works.

groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/improvedbattlesightzero.msnw

I've been around handguns for YEARS and YEARS and recently acquired the "Black Rifle Disease". Unfortunately for me as an AR NEWBIE (never in the service either) this whole subject of "Zeroing" at 25M, 50M, 100M etc..... is all Greek to me. Is there a web-site or book that would CLEARLY explain these to me along with the windage/elevation settings of the AR??   ... in true laymans terms??

Quoted: I've been around handguns for YEARS and YEARS and recently acquired the "Black Rifle Disease". Unfortunately for me as an AR NEWBIE (never in the service either) this whole subject of "Zeroing" at 25M, 50M, 100M etc..... is all Greek to me. Is there a web-site or book that would CLEARLY explain these to me along with the windage/elevation settings of the AR??   ... in true laymans terms??

Go to innocent_bystander's link in his post right above your post.  The page at that link explains things VERY well, and has pictures showing what to do.  There is a lot of other good important information found on that site as well, browse around it a bit.

Basically the trajectory of a bullet is not completely straight. if you 'zero' for 100 yards, or adjust your sights so that you are hitting dead center at 100 yards, if you fire the gun at 300 yard ranges you will hit lower on the target due to the trajectory of the bullet. Similarly, if you zero for 300 yards, you would hit high at 100 yards due to the difference in trajectory. Remember, iron sights assume your bullet travels straight, which it does not. That is why you can change the elevation of your sights to make up for longer distances. With the 5.56/.223 it isn't so much to worry about because it has a very straight trajectory compared to other cartridges.
HTH

-n3rd

How 'bout this...

Using the IBZ method of taking the 1/16" allen wrench and backing off 2 clicks...

Just do that to your rifle, (DON'T TELL ANYONE) then return the dial back to the 3/8 mark.  When you sight in, you use the 3/8 at 25 yards.  You've still got the IBZ "on tap".  I've noticed that, with the little 4 clicks back (for an A3 sight) I can't really tell that the sight isn't tightened all the way down anyway.

Quoted: Just do that to your rifle, (DON'T TELL ANYONE) then return the dial back to the 3/8 mark.  When you sight in, you use the 3/8 at 25 yards.  You've still got the IBZ "on tap".

No you won't.

If you want the IBSZ you'll have to set the sights to 4 (carbine) or 4+2 (rifle) to zero at 25y (deduct one click if you're zeroing at 25 Meters).

This is covered on the site listed above in a separate article on zeroing at 25 yards.

Step 1, Bottom out the Elevation knob.  Flip to the small hole aperture.

Step 2, fire at target at 50 yards.  Adjust Windage and Front Sight Post until center of your groups is centered on the target.

Step 3, Flip back to the 0-200 (large aperture) for patrol, quick target acquisition.  Use the small aperture for longer shots.

DON'T F--K with the damn elevation knob.  Aim center of mass for 0-300 yards.

Over 300 yds, call in air support.

DON'T F--K with the damn elevation knob.

Forest:

Please check you IM.  Thanks!

Quoted: I'm in the military and I'm getting ready to once again qualify with my M16A2...  I am getting quite tired of having the sight in my weapon at 25m and I'm wondering where my bullets are going to be landing at 25m with a 50m zero...  Shooting into the dirt at 50m and way too high at 300m is getting old. I'll be using 62gr. M855 out of a 20" chromelined barrel... Also, any help on what the exact trajectory of my bullets are out of the above weapon system with a 50m zero would be handy! Thanks!

It;s actually a 50YARD zero which will give you a crossover at about 225METERS.

Quoted: Step 1, Bottom out the Elevation knob.  Flip to the small hole aperture. Step 2, fire at target at 50 yards.  Adjust Windage and Front Sight Post until center of your groups is centered on the target. Step 3, Flip back to the 0-200 (large aperture) for patrol, quick target acquisition.  Use the small aperture for longer shots. DON'T F--K with the damn elevation knob.  Aim center of mass for 0-300 yards. Over 300 yds, call in air support. DON'T F--K with the damn elevation knob.

this works great..

Or here's an Idea. you can just zero at 25 and be done with it. what most people don't understand is that you don't get the luxury to DO YOUR OWN thing on the rifle qual range. and one of thhe big reasons thha Army went with this system is to simplify the process so the average 18 year old Joe would not have a lot of choice and thus the ability to screw it up.
I Have seen all the charts and looked at all the different zero's and is the Santose IBZ better.? looks like it. but the Army does not have 50Yard ranges on any base I was ever on. I have zeroed and shot M16A2's and M-4's at 25M annd had no problem hitting pop up tgts out to 300M. I've ran alot of small Arms ranges And watched a lot of Troops get good scores on the pop up ranges The basic Fundamentals of Marksmanship is what needs to be hammered home.

jar3ds How often does your unit qual? does your unit do any train up with Weaponeer,Sub cal,. What kind of unit is it.
Do you own and practice with an AR? Fill in some blanks and help paint the picture.

Harv,
The Col (and myself) want to see the troop hit the targets before they can hit back.

Because a grazing hit on a pop up range is considered a hit - but in the real world it will probably result in a bullet getting shot back at you.

Saying 'it works on a pop-up range' is a poor excuse for using a bad zeroing method.

If you don't want to dick with reseting the dial (and I don't blame you) you can get a true 300M zero on the 25M range by adjusting the sight to 4 -1 click for the carbine or 4 +1 click for the rifle.   This trajectorey - while not as flat as the IBSZ - the trajectory is still better than the 3+1 method.   In the above charte compare the teal USMC 36y/300M zero to the purple 8/3+1 Army method.  The 4 +/- 1 click method approximates the USMC 36y zeroing method.

OK real world for ME anyway.... no paper targets gonna shoot back or pop cans or milk jugs.  I have membership at a local indoor range and 25 yds. is the maximum range for the  indoor rifle range.  I would much more rather zero at 50 yds after reading your posts but not an option. Should I zero in at the 25 yd. range but about 2" low to compensate???  What would be a good compensating mark for a 50 yd zero at an indoor 25 yard range??

Forrest
I understand you want him to hit tgts, but the fact remains that the U.S.Army has ONE system that is doctrine that ALL soldiers are taught to adhere to. as great as the Santose or any other zero method may be, it is not taught or authorized for the big green Army . SOOCOM can do want they Please. as well as other Tier 1 units. but the maority get the 25M which has been Doctrine for many years and combat proven. The LTC would be the first to admit that you cannot have individual soldiers doing their own thing because they found out on the internet that their is a BETTER Zero for them to use. if that were the case, every guy who did not like  full mtal Jacket 9MM and decided to bring his own Hollowpoints would just be allowed to???  I'm not saying that the 25M zerro is the best. But you have to have standardization and strict enforcement for the good off the many. fellow ARFCOMer's are certainly welcome to use any Zero' they like, but to endorse different methods to Service people who may not be that proficient with their weapons, and then they start bringing allen wrench's to the range and start fuckin with their sights. All that serves is to confuse them and the training they have had. and those are the ones that need 30 rds to zero their weapon. I'm not saying that the original poster is a Bucketheaded private who knows jack. But in My 21 years of service both active/reserve/Guard. I have worked on my fair share of Ranges and have pretty much seen it all when it comes to qualifying Soldiers on pistols/Rifles/MG's and Tanks. and the soldiers that hit Targets are the ones that follow approved Zero doctine set forth by the Infantry Branch out of Ft Benning and follow the 4 marksmenship principles taught to them. it's the fundamentals, always has been, always will.  When the LTC's zero method is approved as official doctrine for thhe US.Army then I will wholeheartily endorse it's use for Soldiers.

Not for nothing but traditional marksman ship doctrine needs to be put in the trash,its only relevant for target shooting"what A2 sights were designed for"and the Army needs to teach soldiers how to combat shoot and hit targets while they or the target is moving.Traditional marks manship doctrine has no place on the battle field although its great on the range firing at known distances in traditional static possistions.And while hollow points were mentioned soldiers should be given the best tools to make sure the enemy dies and not the soldier,maybe the army should start thinking about killing the enemy and less how the world will feel about the methods used to do it,thats why special forces use "special"ammo,if the hague convention dictated every thing our boys would still have to use M855 and not the 77 gr hollow point thats more effective out of the M4.Just because its approved military doctrine dosent make it the word of god.Some times we think too much about giving the enemy a hug and not enough about the best ways to kill him and make our boys come back alive and not have to rely on antiquated training tecniques and less effective ammo and bull shit target shooting/qualification doctrine.Maybe proficency in the service should be dictated by shooting that will experienced in combat.Traditional instruction is good for some one who has never laid hands on a rifle but after familiariztion soldiers need to be taught the right way and with more live firing even for non front line MOS.Every one needs to be on the same page like the combat shooting ranges the Marine Corps sends its grunts to.

Quoted: but the maority get the 25M which has been Doctrine for many years and combat proven.

Corrections - its been used in combat - but proven?  English Tower muskets are 'combat proven' but they aren't the first choice if I were going in harms way eh?

The LTC would be the first to admit that you cannot have individual soldiers doing their own thing because they found out on the internet that their is a BETTER Zero for them to use.

That is true individual soldier can't.  But they can learn and possibly show their officers and NCOs a better way.  Their leaders can then decide what is best.

I know there are units other than SOCOM that are using the IBSZ - not its not 'official' doctrine.  But results are what count and the IBSZ provides results.

who did not like  full mtal Jacket 9MM and decided to bring his own Hollowpoints would just be allowed to???

Bad analogy.  The rules of Land Warfare indicate they can't use 9mm HP - there is no 'law' against shooting better.  The JAG can put your butt in Levanworth for using HP, worse you can get is an Article 15 if you use your own zero.

But you have to have standardization and strict enforcement for the good off the many.

How is poor shooting 'for the good of the many'?  Standardization of uniforms, equipment, languages, radios, ammo is a very good thing.  However blindly following bad instructions, when you have a proven system that will produce better results borders on the ridiculous.  There is nothing from preventing a company commander from allowing his troops to have a better zero.  A good shot (read a real marksman) can use a bad zero and still come out good - a marginal troop will benefit the most from the better zero.  And after the ambush of the maintance company in Iraq we should be looking at improving the shooting capabilities of our 'other' troops.

and then they start bringing allen wrench's to the range and start fuckin with their sights. All that serves is to confuse them

If that is too confusing then they shouldn't do it.  But again, if its done through the leadership - the company armorer can reset all the elevation dials prior to the range time.

when it comes to qualifying Soldiers on pistols/Rifles/MG's and Tanks. and the soldiers that hit Targets are the ones that follow approved Zero doctine set forth by the Infantry Branch out of Ft Benning and follow the 4 marksmenship principles taught to them. it's the fundamentals, always has been, always will.

The fundamentals are a good thing.  But sometimes improvements and advancement in the art needs to come from the bottom up.

I can see you're worried about qualifying the soldiers.  That is great.  Looks good in the paperwork.  But consider are you more concerned about the soldiers 'qualifing' or 'surviving'?  I know we all want them to survive - but somtimes the Army is slow to adopt more efficient methods (like optics on rifles).

Perhaps this is another area where they can be nudged into improvment one company at a time.

Quoted: the Army needs to teach soldiers how to combat shoot and hit targets while they or the target is moving.Traditional marks manship doctrine has no place on the battle field although its great on the range firing at known distances in traditional static possistions.

Amen brother preach it!

thats why special forces use "special"ammo,if the hague convention dictated every thing our boys would still have to use M855 and not the 77 gr hollow point thats more effective out of the M4

Any of our soldiers can legally use the 77gr OTM.  Its not considered a 'hollow point' because the hole is a results of the manufacturing process - its not intended to open up like a pistol hollow point.  The round just happens to fragment much like the M193 and earlier lots of M855 (only quicker, better, and more consistantly).

Traditional instruction is good for some one who has never laid hands on a rifle but after familiariztion soldiers need to be taught the right way and with more live firing even for non front line MOS.

Yeah!

Next time you're in MD - I owe you a beer!

jar3ds, "I am in the military and..."  Well, if you MUSt zero at 25 yds, then at 25 yds, adjust so center of your groups are 1" BELOW center of the target.  Use the small aperture with the elevation knob bottomed out.   If you check this at 50 yds, you will find it is zero at 50.

Now, if you can, check your adj at 100 yds, set for center of group to be 1 3/4" above center of target.

You should now use the small aperture out to 300, aim center of mass.  Pas three hundred, set the elevation knob for the appx range.

Patrol, set the aperture on the 0-200 (large hole) and bottom out the elev knob.

I know very well what "the manual" says, I have it here.  It is fine if you want to shoot OVER the target from 200-300 yards.  If you want hits, set as per above.

Again, a simple reading of the charts here or just about any ballistics table will show the 50 yds zero will result in the flattest arc from 0-300 yds.  That is what I did long before I had "the manual".

Corrections - its been used in combat - but proven? English Tower muskets are 'combat proven' but they aren't the first choice if I were going in harms way eh?

Proven you say, lets see, Grenada, Panama,Somalia,Two persian gulf wars,Afghanastan. Yea, i would say its combat proven, how long has the Santose IBZ been around, a couple of Years?? 3 or 4 at best.

I  know there are units other than SOCOM that are using the IBSZ - not its not 'official' doctrine. But results are what count and the IBSZ provides results.

hardly a large representation of the BIG green Army, not even 10%


I agree with the posters   about a more realistic training program, but that is a direct result of STRAC allocations for ammo and training. You all say that the 300 meter pop Up Target range is a poor tool to gauge a soldiers marksmenship. because rounds just skip into the ground and it's not a fair assement of one's skill. so what should we do, put live tgs down range to  see if their hitting centter mass!!!  OK, so we use the SIBZ. so what do we use to measure with then?? FM 23-34 is out their for a reason. You think Infantry branch and all the NCO's and officers who did the research on the 25M zero were just taking a stab in the darrk and did no researrch?? and it's obvious that very few posters under stand the typical E-1 thru E-4. you think all that ballistic data and bullet drop calculations meand anything to these troops. Why do you think The Kiss principle exists.

That is true individual soldier can't. But they can learn and possibly show their officers and NCOs a better way. Their leaders can then decide what is best.

So SSG's and SFC's with 10-15 years of on the job trainning and experience are going to get these awesome new techniques and better zero methods from 18-19 year old Pvts-SPC. So Pvt Santose came up with the IBZ!!!
if your think the 507MC debacle was a direct result of the 25M zero, your wrong, That was a direct result of poor leadership and zero discipline.   Ask PFC Miller what Zero he used when he was engaging the iraqi mortar crew one shot at a time with his M-16A2
I'm not living in a Vaccum. and I know better then most that the system needs to be adjusted to provide more realistic marksmenship training. and i would tell you that your Combat Arms soldiers in Infantry are your most proficient shooters and for the rest of the  Army  its 1-2 times a year to the range, But PFC Miller is a good example of a Non Combat Arms Soldier who most likely hit the ra nnge once a year, using Doctrine out of the FM that during the heat t of the moment allowed him  to engage and kill the Enemy with the marksmenship skills he learned. if he had better leaders to enforce better weapons dicipline, he would have most likely not had to do it one shot at a time.

I respect everyone's opinion on this and agree with many of you. And I personally feel we need to revamp our marksmenship training and i believe the Army is starting to do just that, increase's in ammo allocation and range time for deploying units and convoy training to react to ambushes.  I have had the privelege to work with some off the most proficient, dedicated and profesional NCO's and officer's the Army has. And they got that way by following and enforcing the standards, not by doin what they thought was "best" That's why we have the greatest military in the world. The drill Sgt who taught and trained and mentored PFC Miller taught the  One Army Standard. and you can clearrly see the end result.

tagged

To FOREST next time Im near Maryland Im coming for that beerI usually go to gettsburgh PA once a year in the summer time.I think down that way Im only like an hour away.