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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:27:07 PM EDT
We all know all piston guns have some tilt. Here is the tilt I have going on in the Ruger after 400 rounds. I did not pay super close attention to how bad the tilt was after 100, 200 or 300 rounds, so I don't know if it got this way after 100 rounds and has stabilized or if this is continuous wear.
I really wonder about the larger diameter carrier at the rear... does this cause a bigger hit at the lip, but then stops the tilting as the larger diameter hits sooner?? I.e. do you sacrifice a receiver extension over a couple thousand rounds to keep the upper receiver from getting worn due to a larger tilt ?? 
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:28:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Keep us posted. I have none of that yet.
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:30:42 PM EDT
[#2]
How many rounds do you have through? You have NO SIGN of any tilt ?? That's hard to believe if I have this much. A guy over on M4carbine.net posted shots of his new Ruger and it displayed wear after only the shots at the factory..... you have NO MARKS ??
Did you lube your extension up big time?? |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:34:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Seriously, none whatsoever yet. Just the shots from my first range report. 4-5 mags worth.
I anticipate a little. |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:40:40 PM EDT
[#4]
Pistons...there is a price.
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:43:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Ya, you're right... I have no problem changing out a $25 extension if it last 3000 rounds, and especially if the larger diameter carrier makes the extension pay the price rather than the upper...
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:44:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Mine is showing two little marks. I was informed by Mark Gurney that their test rifles did show some signs, but after the initial wear marks they didnt get any worse through out testing.
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:48:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Mine is showing two little marks. I was informed by Mark Gurney that their test rifles did show some signs, but after the initial wear marks they didnt get any worse through out testing. How many rounds do you have through and how do your marks compare to mine? Picture possible ? |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:52:06 PM EDT
[#8]
Just looked at mine again, and seriously, no wear yet. Admittedly, I don't have a buttload of ammo through mine though.
I'll take pics after my next range session, hopefully this week sometime. Like you said, if I have to change extensions after a few thousand rounds, I don't consider that a big deal. That will take me a while anyway, in all honesty. I shoot other stuff too. 
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:52:41 PM EDT
[#9]
No pics. One little mark on each side of the buffer plunger.
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:52:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Isn't this big durability of parts thing kind of ruined, if you have to replace your receiver extension every 3,000 rounds?
 You'd have to replace your Rec Ext at least 5 times in the life of the barrel. For an additional cost of $100+. ... Why is direct impingement so bad, again? |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:56:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Isn't this big durability of parts thing kind of ruined, if you have to replace your receiver extension every 3,000 rounds?
You'd have to replace your Rec Ext at least 5 times in the life of the barrel. For an additional cost of $100+. ... Why is direct impingement so bad, again? I love DI. My favorite rifle in my safe is my A4 (ish) clone. I have complete confidence in that rifle. And yes, I've shot as much Wolf as brass cased. 
The piston thing has intrigued me for a while. I tried a Sig 556 but it just wasn't the gun for me. I LOVE the AR-15 and this to me is the best of both worlds. |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 6:57:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
... Why is direct impingement so bad, again? Because it defecates on itself |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 7:04:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
... Why is direct impingement so bad, again? Because it defecates on itself Edited per OP's comments below 
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Posted: 6/23/2009 7:10:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Keep this thread on topic. This is a technical forum and I am trying to pass along techinical information and gleen technical information from others.
Most other piston threads are destroyed when this bickering starts. DO NOT START IT HERE PLEASE. |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 7:16:55 PM EDT
[#15]
I had a LWRC for about a week and couldn't get use to the piston. But my question is what does a LWRC or POF look like after aprox. the same number of rounds.
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Posted: 6/23/2009 7:53:25 PM EDT
[#16]
Here's mine at about 300 rounds. I've got about 400 now and it doesn't look much different.
I've also got a little wear from the cam pin hitting inside the upper. Again, taken at about 300 rounds and it's not looking much worse. 
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Posted: 6/23/2009 7:57:28 PM EDT
[#17]
ah-ha.... Now I wonder if I thought of something.....
The manual says to use the lowest gas port setting that reliably cycles the rifle. The rifle shipped at setting 2. I am shooting good Federal American Eagle ammo. I wonder if setting 2 is too high, and I am blasting the carrier back.... I never even thought to adjust to setting 1 and see if I could cycle OK.... Damn.... If I can, then maybe I am just running way to much force back through the system. That could explain how differnt people see different stuff.... some are shooting crappier ammo, and need setting 2, maybe I don't. |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 7:58:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Melvin... what kind of ammo you using?? And, do you have any better pictures?? I really can't tell from that shot....
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Posted: 6/23/2009 8:00:49 PM EDT
[#19]
Thanks for the edit JoelK... please join in the discussion, even if it's to espouse the value of DI and discuss various piston pros and cons.
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Posted: 6/23/2009 8:04:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
ah-ha.... Now I wonder if I thought of something..... The manual says to use the lowest gas port setting that reliably cycles the rifle. The rifle shipped at setting 2. I am shooting good Federal American Eagle ammo. I wonder if setting 2 is too high, and I am blasting the carrier back.... I never even thought to adjust to setting 1 and see if I could cycle OK.... Damn.... If I can, then maybe I am just running way to much force back through the system. That could explain how differnt people see different stuff.... some are shooting crappier ammo, and need setting 2, maybe I don't. I tried on setting 1 with Remington 55gr UMC and it did not fully cycle. Setting 1 is for HOT loads like NATO rounds and for use with silencers. |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 8:08:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
ah-ha.... Now I wonder if I thought of something..... The manual says to use the lowest gas port setting that reliably cycles the rifle. The rifle shipped at setting 2. I am shooting good Federal American Eagle ammo. I wonder if setting 2 is too high, and I am blasting the carrier back.... I never even thought to adjust to setting 1 and see if I could cycle OK.... Damn.... If I can, then maybe I am just running way to much force back through the system. That could explain how differnt people see different stuff.... some are shooting crappier ammo, and need setting 2, maybe I don't. I tried on setting 1 with Remington 55gr UMC and it did not fully cycle. Setting 1 is for HOT loads like NATO rounds and for use with silencers. Duck... are you seeing wear in the extension ?? |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 8:13:00 PM EDT
[#22]
I would think the wear would get to a certain point then stop.
Am really suprised no one has come up with a way to fix this problem in piston guns |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 8:16:37 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
I would think the wear would get to a certain point then stop. Am really suprised no one has come up with a way to fix this problem in piston guns You may be right... the bigger diameter stepped rear on the carrier may allow less tilt, but might bang the extension up a bit, and then stop when the wear gets to a certain point.... dunno.... |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 8:18:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Thanks for the edit JoelK... please join in the discussion, even if it's to espouse the value of DI and discuss various piston pros and cons. Although I have several DI ARs I am cautiously optimistic as to piston designs, but think some additional time is needed to see what works long term. I am particularly interested in seeing if the PWS system suffers from the same problem, or if having the gas key extend way forward changes the force vector enough to eliminate the carrier tilt problem. I was very impressed with this system at SHOT, but unfortunately I was not aware of the carrier tilt problem at that point, so I did not ask PWS about it. My edited reply was aimed at deadduck357's comment, and was not intended to be anti piston in general. Having run several DI guns hard (through 1000+ round carbine courses with no cleaning, just lube) without any failures, it makes me wonder if some of the piston designs are ready for prime time when they show significant parts damage in a few hundred rounds. Not to be glib, but at least Ruger has shown that they will stand behind any problematic new products with the recent recalls. I recently advised my brother to get a post recall LCP instead of a Keltec, and he couldn't be happier with it. |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 8:19:08 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
ah-ha.... Now I wonder if I thought of something..... The manual says to use the lowest gas port setting that reliably cycles the rifle. The rifle shipped at setting 2. I am shooting good Federal American Eagle ammo. I wonder if setting 2 is too high, and I am blasting the carrier back.... I never even thought to adjust to setting 1 and see if I could cycle OK.... Damn.... If I can, then maybe I am just running way to much force back through the system. That could explain how differnt people see different stuff.... some are shooting crappier ammo, and need setting 2, maybe I don't. I tried on setting 1 with Remington 55gr UMC and it did not fully cycle. Setting 1 is for HOT loads like NATO rounds and for use with silencers. Duck... are you seeing wear in the extension ?? Yes ^ ^ ^ |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 8:21:29 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would think the wear would get to a certain point then stop. Am really suprised no one has come up with a way to fix this problem in piston guns You may be right... the bigger diameter stepped rear on the carrier may allow less tilt, but might bang the extension up a bit, and then stop when the wear gets to a certain point.... dunno.... This is what Mark Gurney from Ruger said. Their test rifles showed initial signes and then didnt get worse through out their tests. |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 8:32:13 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks for the edit JoelK... please join in the discussion, even if it's to espouse the value of DI and discuss various piston pros and cons. Although I have several DI ARs I am cautiously optimistic as to piston designs, but think some additional time is needed to see what works long term. I am particularly interested in seeing if the PWS system suffers from the same problem, or if having the gas key extend way forward changes the force vector enough to eliminate the carrier tilt problem. I was very impressed with this system at SHOT, but unfortunately I was not aware of the carrier tilt problem at that point, so I did not ask PWS about it. My edited reply was aimed at deadduck357's comment, and was not intended to be anti piston in general. Having run several DI guns hard (through 1000+ round carbine courses with no cleaning, just lube) without any failures, it makes me wonder if some of the piston designs are ready for prime time when they show significant parts damage in a few hundred rounds. Not to be glib, but at least Ruger has shown that they will stand behind any problematic new products with the recent recalls. I recently advised my brother to get a post recall LCP instead of a Keltec, and he couldn't be happier with it. Yes... the PWS system is interesting... it seems even if there was tilt to the rod, you could design a rod guide that would take up the upward force on the rod, so none was transferred to the carrier. Here is the real issue I have.... the one I can't seem to get answers for. OK, say you have wear on parts. How long will they last? I mean, the day you buy your car, it's transmission is wearing out, but most of us never need to replace the trans because it's useful life is longer than the car in general. Maybe if you are a 1000 rounds a year guy (though any given rifle), the wear is a none issue. The reciever extension might last 10 years, then so what, I replace it. Dunno. Trying to get my head around it all. |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 8:32:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
ah-ha.... Now I wonder if I thought of something..... The manual says to use the lowest gas port setting that reliably cycles the rifle. The rifle shipped at setting 2. I am shooting good Federal American Eagle ammo. I wonder if setting 2 is too high, and I am blasting the carrier back.... I never even thought to adjust to setting 1 and see if I could cycle OK.... Damn.... If I can, then maybe I am just running way to much force back through the system. That could explain how differnt people see different stuff.... some are shooting crappier ammo, and need setting 2, maybe I don't. I tried on setting 1 with Remington 55gr UMC and it did not fully cycle. Setting 1 is for HOT loads like NATO rounds and for use with silencers. Duck... are you seeing wear in the extension ?? Yes ^ ^ ^ Duck.. how does it compare to my pics and what is your round count? Do you have pics ?? |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 8:40:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
I would think the wear would get to a certain point then stop. Am really suprised no one has come up with a way to fix this problem in piston guns I thought someone on the other site was making an anti-tilt buffer for piston guns for this very purpose. |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 9:10:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Am really suprised no one has come up with a way to fix this problem in piston guns It's not difficult at all to come up with a way to fix the problem. It's difficult to implement though. |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 9:10:19 PM EDT
[#31]
4130 chromoly steel buffer tube
Also put a slight long chamfer on the I.D. of 4130 buffer tube! |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 9:30:31 PM EDT
[#32]
Ok, I'm new to the discussion, but I' m wondering, has anyone seen the new CMMG piston system with the anti-tilt bolt carrier? This is not their original design, its an upgrade with a pinned steel gasblock and I think a teflon coated BCG. I'm about to place an order for one and I'd like to hear if anyone has any input on it yet.
Thanks, T |
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Posted: 6/23/2009 9:40:18 PM EDT
[#33]
LX200, you are seeing wear in the buffer tube, but are you also seeing uneven wear on the locking lugs? Or is it still too early to tell?
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Posted: 6/24/2009 5:03:40 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
4130 chromoly steel buffer tube
Also put a slight long chamfer on the I.D. of 4130 buffer tube! This would most certainly cure wear issues caused by the carrier but it would make a heavy carbine even heavier. The anti-tilt buffer has been discussed here and on M4C but I don't remember who makes it. It's a standard carrier with a little nub sticking out of the center. This nub fits tight inside the rear of the bolt carrier and keeps the carrier from rocking. This seems like a cure but I don't know. Maybe the tilt would just be transmitted through the carrier into the buffer. I think I'm more worried about cam pin wear to the upper receiver. Here's another photo of what I'm talking about. The HK416 we've got at work shows significant amounts of wear to this area too. Now, my old Colt shows some wear here but it's got several thousand rounds through it. 
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Posted: 6/24/2009 6:37:12 AM EDT
[#35]
I talked to Mark Gurney at Ruger about carrier tilt and cam pin wear this morning. Mr. Gurney was friendly and seemed very eager to talk about this new gun.
He told me that the company's pre-production prototypes had all been shot many thousands of rounds in durability testing and that many other guns had been shipped to various gun writers, etc. prior to these hitting the consumer market. Mark said that the tilt and upper wear issues are all present to a certain degree in all rifles, depending on the tolerances involved with each individual gun. He said the wear should appear fairly early on and then "settle down" a bit. I've got right at 400 rounds through my Ruger now. I'll continue to monitor the wear points and see what happens. |
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Posted: 6/24/2009 7:00:39 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
I think I'm more worried about cam pin wear to the upper receiver. Here's another photo of what I'm talking about. The HK416 we've got at work shows significant amounts of wear to this area too. Now, my old Colt shows some wear here but it's got several thousand rounds through it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/Ruger%20SR%20556/100_0198.jpg Personally I've never understood why that area wasn't just relieved a little anyway on all uppers as it ends up like that on all ARs. Probably a little faster on a piston gun because of the extra drag from the bolt if my analysis of the cause of the problem is correct. It should get to a point and then not get any worse as it's getting dinged by a movement of the cam pin. |
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Posted: 6/24/2009 7:33:54 AM EDT
[#37]
I need to learn more about the cam pin area... Where exactly is the wear in the photo? This happens because the cam pin is experiencing an upward force as well as rearward?? I know what the cam pin does but I need to sit down and really take a look at how the pin interacts with that area. My knowledge is a bit weak in that area....
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Posted: 6/24/2009 8:02:58 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
I talked to Mark Gurney at Ruger about carrier tilt and cam pin wear this morning. Mr. Gurney was friendly and seemed very eager to talk about this new gun. He told me that the company's pre-production prototypes had all been shot many thousands of rounds in durability testing and that many other guns had been shipped to various gun writers, etc. prior to these hitting the consumer market. Mark said that the tilt and upper wear issues are all present to a certain degree in all rifles, depending on the tolerances involved with each individual gun. He said the wear should appear fairly early on and then "settle down" a bit. I've got right at 400 rounds through my Ruger now. I'll continue to monitor the wear points and see what happens. You beat me to it. Good so now I dont have to hassle him again. He is very helpfull and does want to hear feedback. |
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Posted: 6/24/2009 8:04:17 AM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 6/24/2009 8:06:48 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
I need to learn more about the cam pin area... Where exactly is the wear in the photo? This happens because the cam pin is experiencing an upward force as well as rearward?? I know what the cam pin does but I need to sit down and really take a look at how the pin interacts with that area. My knowledge is a bit weak in that area.... In the pic above ^ youll see the bare aluminum ding right behind the recessed area for the cam pin inside the upper. |
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Posted: 6/24/2009 8:19:31 AM EDT
[#41]
I like Ruger and have several of their guns - 1022, pistols etc. Love that their guns are amercan made
and the company has a good history of producing strong reliable firearms. I keep hearing lately that the R in Ruger stands for Recal. Their quality control must be lacking. |
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Posted: 6/24/2009 8:27:51 AM EDT
[#42]
That cam pin wear mark in the upper is weird, but it's always there to some degree, piston or regular gas system. Someone told me that it's due to the cam pin 'bouncing' off the end of the cam pin slot, during extraction, and rotating back down towards the lock position. It's hard to believe this since the bolt lugs are still inside the barrel extension, so it can't rotate much.
Maybe it's a combination of the bolt rotating as far as it can in the barrel extension and the carrier rotating/moving that makes this happen. Whatever it is, the upper seems to wear to a certain point then stop. Maybe that's as far as the clearances will let it go. The wear marks seem deeper/worse in short barreled uppers. |
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Posted: 6/24/2009 8:48:59 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
I like Ruger and have several of their guns - 1022, pistols etc. Love that their guns are American made and the company has a good history of producing strong reliable firearms. I keep hearing lately that the R in Ruger stands for Recal. Their quality control must be lacking. I'm not sure their QC is lacking. I think they are just finally being innovative and trying new things. And with that comes a few adjustments. I'm glad they are finally being progressive. My new SR-9 handgun has been nothing short of outstanding so far. |
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Posted: 6/24/2009 8:08:53 PM EDT
[#44]
Another 80 rounds fired this morning including 48 rounds using my Lancer competition mag. I'm just under 500 rounds now and it's about time to pull things apart for a look-see.
My only complaint about the Ruger so far is the take-down for the gas regulator. The regulator has a hole drilled through it so you can use a tool or a cartridge to adjust the gas pressure if the regulator is dirty or whatever. The bad thing about it is that the hole is vertical when the regulator is in the disassembly notch. Once the regulator is dirty, it's kind of a bitch to remove. If the hole was horizontal, I could stick a small punch or something through the hole and that would give me some leverage or something to pull against. As it is now, I can only stick a punch or tool down into the top and there's nothing to pull on there. Maybe Ruger did this so nobody would force the regulator and damage it. I guess it's no big deal since a couple drops of oil and a little wiggling back and forth will get the regulator out. Chances are that the gas system can probably still work even when filthy so removing it in the field is probably not a big worry. Maybe I'll have to start doing some longevity tests... |
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Posted: 6/25/2009 9:22:12 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
That cam pin wear mark in the upper is weird, but it's always there to some degree, piston or regular gas system. Someone told me that it's due to the cam pin 'bouncing' off the end of the cam pin slot, during extraction, and rotating back down towards the lock position. It's hard to believe this since the bolt lugs are still inside the barrel extension, so it can't rotate much. Maybe it's a combination of the bolt rotating as far as it can in the barrel extension and the carrier rotating/moving that makes this happen. Whatever it is, the upper seems to wear to a certain point then stop. Maybe that's as far as the clearances will let it go. The wear marks seem deeper/worse in short barreled uppers. Good point. I have seen pic's of the same wear marks on D.I. rifles. |
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Posted: 6/25/2009 9:31:30 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
That cam pin wear mark in the upper is weird, but it's always there to some degree, piston or regular gas system. Someone told me that it's due to the cam pin 'bouncing' off the end of the cam pin slot, during extraction, and rotating back down towards the lock position. It's hard to believe this since the bolt lugs are still inside the barrel extension, so it can't rotate much. Maybe it's a combination of the bolt rotating as far as it can in the barrel extension and the carrier rotating/moving that makes this happen. Whatever it is, the upper seems to wear to a certain point then stop. Maybe that's as far as the clearances will let it go. The wear marks seem deeper/worse in short barreled uppers. Good point. I have seen pic's of the same wear marks on D.I. rifles. There is a good video on YouTube by "troubleshooterberlin" (or something like that) about cam pin/upper receiver interaction during the feeding cycle. It is a controversial vid, but a good one. The man is a regular poster here as well. |
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Posted: 6/25/2009 11:30:11 AM EDT
[#47]
Good video. Here's the link:
troubleshooterberlin's vid After seeing the video and looking at a few used uppers, the wear pattern at the cam pin relief does seem to be happening on the forward (chambering) stroke of the carrier, not the rearward (extraction) motion as I described. I say this because the upper's groove seems to have a ledge of material hanging forward into the relief like it was pushed forward. There is also a pronounced wear mark all along the non-ejection port side of the upper, backing up what troubleshooterberlin mentioned about the key being pushed backward in the carrier and trying to rotate....the rotation being stopped by the cam pin head contacting the side of the upper. |
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Posted: 6/25/2009 12:31:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Here's mine at about 300 rounds. I've got about 400 now and it doesn't look much different. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/Ruger%20SR%20556/100_0193.jpg I've also got a little wear from the cam pin hitting inside the upper. Again, taken at about 300 rounds and it's not looking much worse. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/Ruger%20SR%20556/100_0194.jpg Looks like my old POS conversion after 300 rounds and several other failures. GP is the new pet rock. |
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Posted: 6/25/2009 12:36:52 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would think the wear would get to a certain point then stop. Am really suprised no one has come up with a way to fix this problem in piston guns You may be right... the bigger diameter stepped rear on the carrier may allow less tilt, but might bang the extension up a bit, and then stop when the wear gets to a certain point.... dunno.... This is what Mark Gurney from Ruger said. Their test rifles showed initial signes and then didnt get worse through out their tests. Thta's called lap wear... and it happens to all moving parts that come into metal-metal contact. Not a concern in and of itself. |
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Posted: 6/25/2009 4:29:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Wow, I don't know why I didn't try this before... Took out the buffer and spring, then slid the rear of the carrier into the extension tube. Damn... The stepped area of the carrier BARELY fits in the extension. There is virtually no clearence. No wonder the carrier hits the tube...
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