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Posted: 10/7/2005 4:06:46 PM EDT
I am getting double feeds with my M4gery and new labelle mags, Ammo is HSM brass reloads.
The malfunction is an empty case half chambered with a live round pushed in from underneath. It looks like the extractor is letting go.  I plan to buy some Wolff extractor springs soon but I was wondering about the O-ring around the extractor spring option. I have seen the D-fender "D" rings but was wondering about good ol' home depot black O rings to get through the weekend. Anyone ever try this? What size O ring did you use? |
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Posted: 10/7/2005 4:16:55 PM EDT
[#1]
tag for the info
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Posted: 10/7/2005 4:26:45 PM EDT
[#2]
Pick up a #60 o-ring at the local hardware store to see if it corrects the problem.
Will the bolt lock back consistently on an empty mag? Just wanting to make sure it isn't short stroking. |
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Posted: 10/7/2005 4:28:56 PM EDT
[#3]
May have answered half of my own question.
I took the extractor out. The pin slid out with almost no force and was under very little tension.  The size of the needed O-ring looks to be PFS. pretty f_n small <------------heads to home depot |
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Posted: 10/7/2005 4:33:05 PM EDT
[#4]
Yes, bolt holds back. It used to short stroke but no more... http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=249003&page=1 10-4 on the #60. I'll post pics with range report OC. |
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Posted: 10/8/2005 6:40:37 PM EDT
[#5]
The picture on the original post shows a double feed, not a failure to extract. The primer on the top round is still live, this is not a fired cartridge cases and it is safe to assume that the one feeding from the magazine is live as well. Your problem here is a magazine. Again with these both being live rounds and the bolt carrier cycled all the way rearward to pick up the next cartridge. If you had a fired cartridge case caught in the chamber I would agree this was an extraction issue. Try some other magazines. The O ring would be a wise reliability upgrade to have anyway. Just my 2 cents.
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Posted: 10/8/2005 7:10:16 PM EDT
[#6]
there was a huge thread about extractor springs and buffers not to long ago
anybody have the link? it might help |
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Posted: 10/8/2005 10:41:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Wow crsbar!
Good eye. That pic is actually of my old BCG that had problems of it's own (see above link). That failure that is pictured looks a lot like a FTE but you're right, it's not. The failures I am discussing in this thread had an empty on top and a live one on the bottom every time. How do mags contribute to double feeds? Does the mag let two rounds slip by at the same time? |
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Posted: 10/8/2005 11:04:38 PM EDT
[#8]
UPDATE
I added a #60 O ring from home depot under the extractor. I shot 300 rounds of Wolf today with the O ring and did not have a single malfuntion...of any kind. 'Cept that I ran out of ammo. The O ring works for me. I'll get some wolff springs as well. Here's a pic after 300 rounds. O ring looks perfect.  |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 12:13:17 AM EDT
[#9]
I have one in mine, and know people on this board who run it in their fullautos, no problems and no melting of the #60 o-rings |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 3:03:49 AM EDT
[#10]
USED A #60 ON MINE WORKS GREAT
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Posted: 10/9/2005 4:35:45 AM EDT
[#11]
If you are indeed having failures to extract there are a couple possibilities. First is exactly what you are hearing, the rubber O ring will increase your extraction force by a factor of 3 if I recall. This should solve your problem. If not there are two other steps. First replace the extractor completely. You could have an out of spec extractor. Secondly, if that does not work you could have a rough chamber. That means it was not polished properly and there are burrs that cause the fired cartridge case to stick longer just enough for the extractor to tear the rim off on the way back or to slip off. If this is the case you should send it back to the manufacturer or have a compatent gunsmith polish the chamber. The last thing may be to also replace your ejector spring. Without seeing the exact malfunction, the ejector may be dirty or out of spec so there is not enough force to throw the fired cartridge case out before the next cartridge is beginning to feed from the magazine.
Magazines that cause double feeding do so by having one or both lips damaged. From my experience it is usually only one side. What happens is that when the bolt opens and ejects the fired cartridge case the next cartridge pops up in place to feed when the bolt is fully rearward.Two condiotions happen, First if it is on the damaged side to begin with the cartridge will pop out of the magazine by force of the mage spring and the next cartridge will rise to be fed. Second, when the bolt makes its forward movement it grabs that one. Now you have one partially in the chamber (usually) and one starting to feed off the mag when the whole cycle stops. THis is what I believe happened in the picture you posted. Hope this helps. |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 5:07:12 AM EDT
[#12]
great pics! very detailed close ups!
+1 on the o-ring and / or the Wolff spring. I use the Wolff springs with out the o-ring with no issues |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 8:18:56 AM EDT
[#13]
cugir,
What kind of settings are you using on you camera for those great close ups? I've tried the macro function on my digicam and it never comes out that good. Are you using manual focus? Sorry for the hijack. |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 5:49:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Great info crsbar. I'll check those mags on both sides.
I've have had a few IM's questions about the close up photos. I used an old Nikon coolpix 990. First thing is to turn off the flash. For close up, I use manual focus set real close then view the LCD and move in and out till it looks sharp. Exposure is set at auto. The lamp is a 60 watt fluorescent in a desk lamp help rigt behind the camera. I then take the image into Photoshop where I fix color and contrast, apply some sharpening and save for web.  Thats a holga camera standing in as my coolpix. |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 5:54:20 PM EDT
[#15]
Thanks for posting this...
(I needed the size of the o-ring) |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 6:09:10 PM EDT
[#16]
He stated his malfunction was an empty and a live casing making it likely a dropped extraction and not a double feed which is almost exclusively casued by damaged magazines. 2 Live Rounds = Double Feed 1 empty and 1 Live = Dropped Extraction. |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 6:50:43 PM EDT
[#17]
tag for info
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Posted: 10/9/2005 6:58:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Holgas are as cool as AR15s, just not in the same way.
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Posted: 10/9/2005 7:07:04 PM EDT
[#19]
that is an outstanding pic of the ground and finished end on the extractor spring, mind if I make a copy as an example pic? |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 8:59:14 PM EDT
[#20]
Heck yea, swipe away. No photo credit required 
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Posted: 10/9/2005 9:08:02 PM EDT
[#21]
HM, you are right... so is crsbar as he is describing the picture above, not the malfuncion I described. To further confuse things, the double feed pictured above with the silver BC happened with quality, tested, almost new Labelle type mags. The mag in that shot was likely a good one. I had many wierd malfuntions with that silver SP1 BC. Who knows what really caused that pictured malfuntion. Maybe it was the mag after all. |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 11:29:12 PM EDT
[#22]
did anyone else catch the looter in that pic?
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Posted: 10/9/2005 11:34:08 PM EDT
[#23]
2F can also be caused by overfunction |
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Posted: 10/10/2005 5:25:36 AM EDT
[#24]
First off, outstanding pics.
Now what I don't get is why this is being discussed as a failure to extract. What I see are two live rounds wedge in there (no primer strike on the upper cartridge). I see no spent round anywhere, so I'm think the extraction part went OK. Did this occur from the weapon cycling automtically or did this occur from manually operating the charging handle? ETA: From reading above, I see that this wasn't a representative photo. But if you are getting the empty out of the chamber, but not out of the gun, then it's a failure to eject. Check your plunger for debris, chips whatever, Put a couple of drops of CLP in there and work the plunger witha bullet tip or a punch if you have one. You may need to replace your plunger spring. |
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Posted: 10/10/2005 5:52:59 AM EDT
[#25]
extraction ends when the mouth of the cartridge clears the front of the ejection port. if the case is still in the gun then it's usually a FtEx.
This is a FtEj 
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Posted: 10/10/2005 10:36:19 AM EDT
[#26]
cugir,
Thanks again for the photo tips. I still can't believe that your excellent macro-photos aren't really micro-photography taken with your super expensive exotic equipment! What ISO do you like to have the digital camera set at for a pic like that? |
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Posted: 10/10/2005 10:40:01 AM EDT
[#27]
If you are having overfunction issues, it proabally is throwing the empties at the 1 or 2 o'clock position relative to the muzzle as opposed to a more proper 3-4 with a deflector upper and 4-5 with a non-deflelctor upper. |
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Posted: 10/12/2005 12:05:07 AM EDT
[#28]
My camera doesn't have adjustable ISO. It's probably around 100. I have done a small writeup on gun photography at this link.. ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=398372&page=1 |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 2:24:39 AM EDT
[#29]
my 20" is throwing it out at about 3 o'clock since I put in the o-ring and wolf extra power spring, it's funny at the open dorr ranges 
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Posted: 10/13/2005 2:54:38 AM EDT
[#30]
I unfortunately cannot view the pics of the extractor with the O ring installed. Can somebody tell me how it's done? Is the ring merely put over the top of the spring and slid down toward the bottom?
Thanks! |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 7:41:35 AM EDT
[#31]
Wow!!!! Just like Tim and Pat had us purposely set up in the carbine course for malfunction clearance drills. I've never had one happen to me like that accidently, but I did have a mag eject a round high enough so that when the bolt caught it, it jammed it between the receiver top and gas tube. Boy, was that a PITA to clear. Anything that would stiffen your extractor spring, be it an o-ring or a stiffer spring, should help you with this issue. |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 1:14:45 PM EDT
[#32]
I stopped at Lowe's today and picked up a 10 pack of #60 o-rings for $1.40. I would think that you indeed, just slip the o-ring over the spring. It appears to have no affect directly on the spring, but rather reduces the amount of travel you can get out of the extractor, therefore ensuring a good bite on the head of the case. (I think...). I'm shooting my AR pistol this week, I'll post results. ETA: We went through a similar problem when my buddy built his pair of AR pistols... all custom high end parts, each cost about $1K without sights or optics... we ran my Olympic bolt and his FTE problems dissapeared. The Oly's come with their EXRing... He installed EXRings on his pistols and now they bump, er, I mean "function" 100%  I installed the #60 o-rings on my two AR's that have Model 1 Sales bolts in them. I pulled the Oly bolt just to compare, and all it is is a flattend o-ring slid over the spring. That's all I did with the other bolts, just slid the o-ring over the spring and pushed it down to the bottom of the spring. That's it! Good to go! |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 1:38:07 PM EDT
[#33]
IS it a DOUBLE FEED or is it a FAILURE TO EXTRACT? Double Feed means BOTH rounds are live. Double Feeds are always due to bag magazines (yes even new 'mil-spec' magazines can be bad). Failure to Extract is when you are trying to feed in one live round, but the fired round hasn't cleared the chamber (the extractor failed to pull it out). It can be caused by a variety of phenomena. So if only one round is 'live', and if this just started happening (and you have had 1000's of rounds with no problems) I'd just suggest replacing the extractor spring. Preferably with a Wolf or the new Colt spring with the black insert. You can add an O ring if you wan't, that might cover up the symptom but it won't solve the problem. Replacing the extractor spring will solve the problem. Edited to add - darn I should have read the WHOLE thread first, anyway the suggestion still stands - that extractor spring needs replacement. |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 3:42:04 PM EDT
[#34]
covered on the first page, the pic is not representative of his malf.
I have a "COLT" mag that will do it reliably, I use it for fit testing mag well now. |
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Posted: 10/18/2005 4:03:23 PM EDT
[#35]
I put another 300 rounds of Wolf through the AR with the Oring this weekend.
Not one single failure. For those who cannot find a #60, here are the dimensions. The O rings are 1/4" OD x 1/8" ID x 1/16" mine are Danco brand from Home Depot. 10 for $.87 |
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Posted: 10/18/2005 5:42:24 PM EDT
[#36]
Awesome! 
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Posted: 10/18/2005 6:44:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Usually but there are a couple of other rare things that can cause it. |
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Posted: 10/18/2005 7:07:30 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 10/18/2005 7:27:51 PM EDT
[#39]
If you send an email to Armalite, they will send you free O rings.
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Posted: 10/19/2005 1:19:26 AM EDT
[#40]
Sorry to Hijack, but this is the malfunction I am having with my DPMS AR. It feeds a live on in the chamber but fails to eject the case and jambs it up tight. I also have noticed some small gouges on the fron of the ejection port. What would cause this malfunction?? Thanks, Kris |
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Posted: 10/19/2005 2:17:26 AM EDT
[#41]
in the case of that client he needed an H buffer to match his 14.5" barrel. usually FtEj are related to a faulty extractor or short stroking.
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Posted: 10/19/2005 2:38:14 AM EDT
[#42]
tag
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Posted: 10/19/2005 4:58:55 PM EDT
[#43]
What section of Home Depot or Lowes carries O rings? An O ring at Home Depot is like a needle in a haystack!
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Posted: 10/19/2005 5:21:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Plumbing, usually a muti drawer organizer tucked into one aisle.
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Posted: 10/21/2005 6:53:31 PM EDT
[#45]
Tag - O - Matic
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Posted: 10/21/2005 7:23:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Just be sure to get the ones made of Viton. They are solvent resistant.
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Posted: 10/22/2005 2:24:00 AM EDT
[#47]
I strongly recommend fully troubleshooting the rifle, the majority of the AR/M series should run fine without any enhancement to the extractor or any other odd ball part. Bumping up the extractor tension without discovering the cause of the FtEx will only mask the true problem and that problem may be a major one you'll only discover once it's too late to prevent it.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 7:11:26 AM EDT
[#48]
Tagged for info.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 9:09:02 AM EDT
[#49]
Am interested in what other causes besides bad mags. Thanks. My Thread on the Same Problem |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 11:45:11 AM EDT
[#50]
Interesting post, but I got to ask a dumb question. Is the O ring a band aid masking the real problem of poorly made parts such as extractor spring or extractor. In many decades of shooting the AR 15 never needed an o ring on the unit. Have had some bad extractor springs including some new ones.
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