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Posted: 7/8/2017 9:45:42 AM EDT
This thread is going to seem a little chopped up, I am posting at a few forums.... and In order to keep my sanity... I will cut and paste info as I post, while still answering specific questions at all the various forums....
Let me start out by saying this thread is a "This helped fix my concerns and issues with my PSA Gen II Nitrated, Nickel Boron BCG 18" Carbine." The thread is not a negative post about PSA in any way.... so if someone just wants to complain, please leave it out of here... this thread is about making your heck of a deal rifle run smoother. I am posting this to show what made mine run MUCH smoother... I am going to the range today for its first firing. I will post the results later... I have a lot of stuff to try and get done at the range today. So it finally got here... and I wasn't kidding about PSA building as they get orders !! Also.... as shipped, this is beyond a doubt, the most oil free rifle ever. Everything is bone dry... the best part about that is it makes finding any rough finish / binding parts easier. That is not to say the finish sucks, as a matter of fact, the finish is as good as any of my AR's , Colt , BCM, Rainer Arms, etc. It just needs a little polishing in spots, and OIL... did I mention the lack of oil ? Lol Just as a reference ...Oil used is ALG Go-Juice. As for the polishing... in the past I have found a little burnishing, on various parts can greatly improve the "feel" ... and the PA10 was no exception. 0000 Steel wool , the finest commonly available ( won't even scratch glass ) is what I use. When I say a little burnishing, I mean about a minutes worth. So far, parts minimally polished that show drastic noticeable improvement on the lower. The inside of the buffer tube... it was just rough and gummy (?)... after a spin down the buffer tube with a 0000 steel wool wrapped 12 gauge bore brush, it is much improved, then after a proper OILING on the interior of the tube and on the buffer and spring, it is nice and smooth. The disassembly pins.... burnished and lubed.. improved smoothness. Burnished the outside of the buffer tube as well.... much smoother. Now for the most interesting polished / burnished "part".... the magwell. One of the first things I tried was the mag drop and insertion...Magpul 10,20,25, and 25 M118 wouldn't drop free.. loaded or not loaded. A few minutes of burnishing the interior of the magwell, with little effort given to being through... resulted in all Magpuls dropping free, unloaded and loaded. Worked so well that I don't even feel the need to oil the magwell.............. just kidding, gave it a coat simply because it is bone dry. Again... very little effort to polish up working surfaces only... maybe 3 minutes. I should add, the PSA rubbery hand grip is pretty dang nice. Trigger is typical "MilSpec gritty"... I am going to try the USGI paracord trigger job on it because I want to see if it works. I will measure , with my cheap RCBS trigger pull gauge, the before and after weights. Paracord AR-15 Trigger Job Straight out of the box, its heft is ok... I was expecting more heft / weight, given PSA's 10.4lb listing.... actual weight... 8 1/4lbs bone stock. The only way I could make it close to the advertised 10.4lbs, was by adding a fully loaded 25rd Magpul and the owners manual and magwell security lock. OAL as delivered....collapsed, 37 1/8ish"... extended 40 1/2ish" I will be adding info as I get time... but so far I feel confident I will like this PA10. |
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And as for the trigger trick... the PSA supplied trigger is pretty bad, so I figured why not try the trick...results...
After about 7 dry pulls, the grittiness is gone... frankly I am surprised... the OEM pull weight was 7 3/4lbs and after the "trick" a MUCH smoother 7 3/8's lbs. And yes I will fire for reliability and accuracy results prior to most changes... I will install the trigger and finish finessing / burnishing parts. I need to add ... the upper to lower fit is snug, but the pins themselves are slightly undersized.. not enough to really matter, but the fit could be better just from better fitting pins. Also , the OEM PSA charging handle is "dragging" in its channel... already have wear marks from the few dozen times I have hand cycled it. So I have to figure out how to "loosen" that up. Even the BCM Mod 5 drags slightly .... so it is a upper issue, possibly not the charging handles. ( Even the PSA charging handle needed oil on the latch !? ... Haha.. ) |
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I am going to try Fed XM80, MEN, Hirt., FGMM 168gr, GGG, Aust. Outback for the OEM test firing. Maybe other common ammo.... I have a wide assortment already.
They certainly did not test fire it with no powder residue at all, any where that I can see.. As for the charging handle marks... Got that part figured out. The charging handle has no "tab" on the chamber end tip and With no tab ... the charging handle made the whole topside drag and bind.... combine that with the 2 outside guide tabs being snug it was turning the charging handle into a de-burring device. I suppose I could slightly file the 2 guide tabs and make the charging handle a tiny bit looser.... but whatever was removed and the BCM Mod 3 ( I said Mod 5 earlier.. oops ) is working fine. EDIT... and UPDATE ..it wasn't the charging handle at all... it was the gas tube / barrel nut interface causing binding.... and "jamming" up into the BCG gas key. More on that later. |
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I should have taken a photo of the black gunk that came out of the chamber... whatever packing oil / rust inhibitor they used on the barrels most certainly needed to be cleaned out to aid in smoother chambering.
I "helped" barely round out the breach end of the chamber with a little polishing compound on a 20guage bore mop attached to a spare rod piece spun by a low rpm drill... more black gunk... and I can physically feel it is smoother now. The previous case marks ( 7.62x51 Fed. MSR had them as well ) are now eliminated... so more burnishing worked. So far ... IMHO, I think with a little QC on my end... any of my concerns are easily "fixed" with very little effort. Up until this point all these QC concerns could have been taken care of in one afternoon... so I am happy with all the results. Oops ... meant to add, a good polishing of the interior of the buffer tube smoothed that up a LOT.... |
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I have decided to fore-go the feed ramp polishing until after the first firing.
If the feedramps have any issues , then I will try to polish them. ( I do want to see if the OEM configuration is "ok" ) Next, I am going to swap in the LaRue Trigger... ultimately I will want it in there so why not benefit from it now. I am not going to remove the second "O Ring" .. yet.... So far, manual feeding has been fine from a full 25rd Magpul after the various polishing. The Tubbs Flatwire recoil spring fit "better" then the OEM PSA one.... I say better only because it slightly narrowed the overtravel gap between the buffer face and the bolt stop.... OEM distance was about 1/4" and the Tubbs is 3/16"... IMHO 1/4 " is slightly to much, and can lead to bolt stop breakage. My 9MM Colt pattern PCC has proven that.... I can always resort to the quarter/s in the end of the buffer tube if need be. So.... tomorrow will be the test firing. I will have the PA10 in its OEM configuration for all intents and purposes... grip changed, trigger, Lantac brake are the only part changes done so far. I will also try out the heavier 5.5oz shorty buffer, The Tubbs Flatwire, A Tubbs Carrier Weight System ( combined and separately ).. and possible remove an o-ring from the extractor if needed. Test firing will be scoped and 100yds. Later I will change to the PRS stock and possibly an SLR adjustable gas block. Wish me luck !! |
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Ok... everyone gets three guess how many issues I had....
I had zero issues No feeding issues, no extraction issues, no tight magwell issues... Zero.. nothing. I fired at least 300rds, and 20ish makes / brands , and weights from 130-175gr. I am happy with my purchase, at this point I would recommend one of the PSA PA10's to anyone... I will add, seriously, clean the thing, and lube everything. I will be adding the SLR adjustable gas block as well as the Magpul PRS stock. I believe it "kicks" more then needed. Ejection was bouncing out at the 1:30, smacking the case deflector each time with all the brands of ammo. I did try the KAK 5.5oz ( ? ) buffer and it helped very slightly.... but if I did have the wrong .308 carbine buffer spring ( Mentioned on one of the other forums ) then the results could be skewed. I did also try the Tubbs Flatwire with the heavy 5.5oz KAK..and the Tubbs CWS ( adds even 4.6oz more ) ... still ejecting hard forward... no real noticeable difference. After my photos finally come through... I will post photos of the various groups... please do not judge the round counts in the various groups... I frankly didn't think the day would go so completely smoothly, so my "plans" changed and I adjusted as needed. So some of the groups are 7-8 rds, some are 10, some are 20.... and frankly, some are so poor ( SSA ammo ) that I had a heck of a time figuring out where the shots were even hitting ! Welp.... the KAK heavy rifle length buffer ( 9.3oz ) showed up today as well !! I will be swapping over to the Rifle length stock asap.... and firing again tomorrow. Another side note... if you are considering a B.A.D. bolt release lever.... forget it... the is not enough room between the upper and the paddle for the BAD lever. |
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I've got pretty much the same upper, but with a nitride bcg. Mine was soaked in oil upon receiving. My chamber was a bit rough looking at my spent cases. But I haven't had any issues yet.
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Good write up
Did you shoot any steel case through it like wolf, or brown bear? |
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So no problems with the steel?
Thinking about picking one up to just bang steel through |
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Reading through this thread again, I'm a bit bummed to see your tubbs flatwire spring, and H3 buffer didn't help with the overgassing issue at all. I was planning on getting both, since mine is ejecting at 2 o clock right now.
Mine was "kicking" a bit much as well. I put a strike industries j-comp on, and it's actually pleasant to shoot now. |
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Where to start.... The Adjustable gas block, what a difference ! I whole heartedly recommend the SLR adjustable gas block, it truly transformed the abrupt cycling PA10 GenII into a smooth cycling .308 rifle. Ended up using the 5 clicks from fully closed setting, 10 more clicks ( opening the gas flow more ) were available.
I used the standard weight PSA PA10 rifle buffer for the accuracy and function testing first 4 clicks failed to cycle 2 of 20 rounds of FGMM .308 168gr, and 5 of 40rds of ZQI, 2 of 20 Horn. TAP "AR" ( ... 5 clicks performed 100% with the FGMM, ZQI ) The Hornady TAP "AR" needed 6 clicks to cycle with the KAK AR10 9.3oz heavy rifle buffer. Interestingly, at one point while firing the Horn. TAP AR round , I adjusted the gas block one additional click wider, and the point of impact for the next 10rds shifted 2 inches down and 2 1/2 inches left ?! .... It is just as possible that I "shifted" as well... but 10rds makes it hard for me to think it was just me. ZQI also performed miserably accuracy wise ... again. At 5 clicks and the rifle fired approx. 300rds trouble free. ( Except the later heavy buffer tested 2 Horn. rds. , with the standard rifle buffer it was fine ) The brass caseheads no longer show smear marks from the ejector, which is directly attributable to the "slower" ( milliseconds slower ) speed of the action. Pressure levels have dropped more prior to extraction...and because of this... the case has a moment more time to lose the chamber gripping PSI prior to extraction. The new replaced by me ..firing pin retaining cotter key is not bent ( I forgot to mention this earlier, the OEM PSA cotter key was getting bent from the violent cycling !?!? , I had a replacement on hand so changed it out ) The rifle now feels like a mild 7.62x39 AR.... so it is a pleasure to shoot !! I haven't compared group measurements yet ( from the OEM configuration compared to the current ) ... but I did see improvement, for the most part across the board. I will add.... the GEN 3 Magpul PRS's recoil pad.. while "softer" then the old models, needs the sharp edges radiused more..... by rd 300, it was biting into the shoulder more then needed... I will fix that ! Later on I will post the various ammos groups. |
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Just an FYI.... Apparently Magpul makes a different MIAD Gen 1.1 Type 2 hand grip with taller backstraps for the PA10.... I have ordered one up, as well as some of the Brownells $10 AR10 metal mags to try out.
"* NOTE: This TYPE 2 Kit uses taller backstraps for optimized fit with certain 7.62x51 receivers such as the Armalite AR-10A/B/T, DPMS LR308, KAC SR25, LaRue OBR, LMT .308 MWS, Palmetto PA10, and S&W M&P10." https://www.magpul.com/products/miad-gen-1-1-grip-kit-type-2 |
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This.... Sadly...at this point I would not buy more Brownells 20rd .308 mags at even $5 a mag.... even if a little filing at the latch helps.
I just received mine, unloaded, ....width 1.0645..... snug fit in magwell..... locks in well , bolt closed.... does remove freely ( not quite drops free ). Loaded 20rds easily..... width 1.099... tight fit in magwell.... have to VERY FIRMLY smack the bottom to get it to lock in ( even after filling some of the OAL of the leg off of both the front and back of the follower..... and it will not drop free, ( while fully loaded.. period. ) I will try to lightly file the mags latch area, in order to make insertion easier.... but, I think the ultimate problem is the feedlip spread, since unloaded it snapped into place easily. Function was 100% hand cycled. Pull back charging handle.. let'r fly into battery. |
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I'm surprised you only need 5 clicks with a rifle buffer. I'm running my PA-10 (Faxon 16" pencil barrel and SLR gas block) at 6-7 clicks out with H (3.8oz) shorty buffer shooting weak M80 ball. I started at 4 clicks and worked up to 6-7 until reliable lock back.
For grips, I tried a bunch and found the BCM Mod3 fits pretty well (still has slight gap under the beavertail, but MUCH less than the others). Mine also works well with both Pmags (not really a fan of them) and IMI Defense windowed 20's (my favorite's for cost/reliability). I'll eventually pick up some L7's, but their price is a hard pill to swallow. Great thread and keep up the updates! Oh! Also wanted to give a heads up that Odin Works M-lok "LOW" height rail fits like a glove (best rail I've ever used)! I went with the 15.5" and it's superlight yet seems very rugged. I also LOVE how it mounts (uses a collar/adaptor that threads onto the receiver threads, barrel goes into that, then a nut internally threads into the collar to lock it down. The collar also has a raised portion with hole through it that acts as an extended gas tube guide. It's brilliant. Not only does the collar/nut lock down super secure, but the gas tube, itself, will still be a back up to prevent rotation, just as a mil spec barrel nut does). Just a note if you use that system though, you will need to file down the dust cover rod as it protrudes too far forward to allow the collar to seat close to the receiver. Also, with the Odin Works, do NOT use grease on any of the threads. The collar should go over dry receiver threads (because it needs to grip those) and the nut uses vibra-tite (which is like a flexible, non permanent, thread locker). This is important to assure it stays rock solid... and it DOES when installed correctly (no lube/grease). |
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I'm surprised you only need 5 clicks with a rifle buffer. I'm running my PA-10 (Faxon 16" pencil barrel and SLR gas block) at 6-7 clicks out with H (3.8oz) shorty buffer shooting weak M80 ball. I started at 4 clicks and worked up to 6-7 until reliable lock back. For grips, I tried a bunch and found the BCM Mod3 fits pretty well (still has slight gap under the beavertail, but MUCH less than the others). Mine also works well with both Pmags (not really a fan of them) and IMI Defense windowed 20's (my favorite's for cost/reliability). I'll eventually pick up some L7's, but their price is a hard pill to swallow. Great thread and keep up the updates! Oh! Also wanted to give a heads up that Odin Works M-lok "LOW" height rail fits like a glove (best rail I've ever used)! I went with the 15.5" and it's superlight yet seems very rugged. I also LOVE how it mounts (uses a collar/adaptor that threads onto the receiver threads, barrel goes into that, then a nut internally threads into the collar to lock it down. The collar also has a raised portion with hole through it that acts as an extended gas tube guide. It's brilliant. Not only does the collar/nut lock down super secure, but the gas tube, itself, will still be a back up to prevent rotation, just as a mil spec barrel nut does). Just a note if you use that system though, you will need to file down the dust cover rod as it protrudes too far forward to allow the collar to seat close to the receiver. Also, with the Odin Works, do NOT use grease on any of the threads. The collar should go over dry receiver threads (because it needs to grip those) and the nut uses vibra-tite (which is like a flexible, non permanent, thread locker). This is important to assure it stays rock solid... and it DOES when installed correctly (no lube/grease). View Quote I wonder if the Nickel Boron'd BCG helps that much ? And remember, I did "fix" the binding gas tube . |
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I was just as surprised with the 5 clicks. And that is even with the 9.3oz KAK Heavy AR10 buffer. I wonder if the Nickel Boron'd BCG helps that much ? And remember, I did "fix" the binding gas tube . View Quote The Rifle has been flawless for me (reliable lock back, zero feeding/extraction issues), but I am having one issue which I'm not sure is ammo related or not. I'm having occasional failure to fire due to light primer strikes. I'm using the EPT trigger (which I LOVE and use in all my other AR's). There seems to be enough pin protrusion, but it's not punching the primers deep enough for 100% reliability. I asked PSA if the EPT uses standard mil spec springs, and they say it does. So I'll either have to keep shooting it, and maybe it will sort itself out. Or swap in a stronger hammer spring. Or... it could just be unusually hard surplus M80 primers (though a mil spec spring should not have difficulty with that). I'll sort it out somehow (I really should try some commercial 308 to see how those primers do with my current set up). With my shooting schedule, it will probably be awhile before I get around to that rifle again. I'm enjoying your evaluation and modifications thread here! Please keep up the good work and keep us posted! Thank you for taking the time to share your findings with us! |
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When you say weak M80 ball ammo.... which brand ?
The fact that ZQI required an additional click to function properly , just shows me that ZQI uses a faster burning ball powder ( one that doesn't quite produce as much gas as other brands , hence it needed more volume of gas into the action )... kind of like IMR4198 .223 loads... looks good on paper, but really not the best choice of powder for a gas gun. Also some M80 has "harder" primers. |
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When you say weak M80 ball ammo.... which brand ? The fact that ZQI required an additional click to function properly , just shows me that ZQI uses a faster burning ball powder ( one that doesn't quite produce as much gas as other brands , hence it needed more volume of gas into the action )... kind of like IMR4198 .223 loads... looks good on paper, but really not the best choice of powder for a gas gun. Also some M80 has "harder" primers. View Quote |
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Good write up, you would think it would be common sense to thoroughly clean ANY new gun prior to use and go through and polish up and clean any machining burrs especially on a cheaper rifle like most of these are, but it doesn't matter if I buy a $200 or $3,000 gun the FIRST thing that I do is a complete disassembly and cleaning / de-greasing before use, basically following the same steps as you and I haven't had any issues with a gun I have gotten besides a century AK but that thing was wayyyy out of spec. Good tip on the buffer springs.
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Good write up, you would think it would be common sense to thoroughly clean ANY new gun prior to use and go through and polish up and clean any machining burrs especially on a cheaper rifle like most of these are, but it doesn't matter if I buy a $200 or $3,000 gun the FIRST thing that I do is a complete disassembly and cleaning / de-greasing before use, basically following the same steps as you and I haven't had any issues with a gun I have gotten besides a century AK but that thing was wayyyy out of spec. Good tip on the buffer springs. View Quote I have ordered another SS 18" barreled upper for parts ... ( BCG, etc... price was $400 delivered ) so we will see how this one is. I will eventually change the barrel in one or the other... accuracy is "decent" from the nitrated barrel...but I want better. .308 ammo is so expensive... I'd rather have better accuracy at minimum 50 cents a shot..... a decent barrel is as much as a case of Malaysian surplus. Times are great for parts !! |
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.308 ammo is so expensive... I'd rather have better accuracy at minimum 50 cents a shot..... a decent barrel is as much as a case of Malaysian surplus. View Quote |
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Relegate your least accurate upper to steel. Everybody needs a knock-around 308. When you feel like going out blasting, when you can get Wolf 308 at 35 cpr, why would you ever shoot wimpy 223 at 30cpr? That's the theory that had me pick up a PA-10. :) Hopefully someday it'll actually work... View Quote I think I will check into some steel cased SP's and check the performance, both accuracy and expansion wise.... ( this cheap hobby just keeps getting more expensive.. Lol ) |
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Ok... while I am happy with the rifles performance, eventually I will want better accuracy. Criterion, Krieger, Bartlein barrels or such..... 18" 1n10 twist or a 20" maybe.
So, I ordered another upper... in SS.. 18" ( one of the two will be a parts donor to my better barrel.....) between the 2 uppers, which ever is less accurate will receive the new barrel. My M21 and My Krieger barreled AR15 will shoot most all ammo "better" ( those barrels have made me an addict to accuracy ) ... they both have ammo they hate, but for the most part there is a general improvement in overall accuracy ... that is what I'd like with a better quality barrel. The issue with the M21 is it only holds great accuracy for about 150rds before the groups open up ( seems to be related to the gas piston and fouling )... a good cleaning will restore the accuracy, but the Krieger AR15 doesn't do that.... I am hoping the AR platform in .308 ( with a decent barrel and a little finessing.. trueing the receiver face and a properly headspaced bolt ) will yield the results I would like. At this point, I am strongly considering a 18" or 20"Criterion rifle length gas. The price is good and the reputation is very good. |
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Well.... I ordered up the "better" barrel today....
Criterion 18" Middie.... https://msrarms.com/collections/m-o-t-m/products/criterion-barrels-nitride-finish-stainless-steel-hybrid-contour-barrel-308-ar?variant=29092302337 And ordered the Brownells version of the Geissele reaction rod and JP Upper vise blocks. After shooting again on last Sat. ... I couldn't bear the thought of shooting so much expensive ( compared to 5.56 ) .308, and accepting the PSA barrels accuracy level ( really , Lack of accuracy ). Criterion said the barrel should fit just fine, but did caution me about using a Nickel Boron Bolt... the reason being .. A. Quality of the application of the NiB, ... B. Since it is a coating, headspace could be excess as it possibly wears off / flakes off the locking lugs or bolt face. ( NOT saying the PSA bolt will... just making note of the coatings impact on dimensions ) Interesting... I had never thought of that. Granted if the bolt was produced properly, it should be a-ok. For me... that is another reason to use a conv. bolt or a nitrated bolt... or at least one that is not a coating. |
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Relegate your least accurate upper to steel. Everybody needs a knock-around 308. When you feel like going out blasting, when you can get Wolf 308 at 35 cpr, why would you ever shoot wimpy 223 at 30cpr? That's the theory that had me pick up a PA-10. :) Hopefully someday it'll actually work... View Quote |
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I received the SS Barreled Upper today from PSA...18" middie, FF, SS barrel, Nitrated BCG
http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-pa10-18-midlength-308-win-1-10-stainless-steel-15-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-and-ch-516445088.html Weight of just the upper, from the PSA is 5 1/3lbs I has the same gas tube binding issue the FF Barrel nut and the BCG... exactly the same. ( The barrel nut makes contact with the gas tube, forcing it in to the top The gas key is properly staked... just like the first. The charging handle lacks the raised "tab" at the front of it.. just like the first. The upper is also bone dry...no extra oil at all... a very slight amount of something on the BCG. Going to change the gas block to an SLR adjustable, grind down the barrel nut flat to allow free movement of the gas tube, oil it up, use a BCM Gunfighter "Brake" on this barrel and see how it shoots. I am hoping for better accuracy then the nitrated barrel has done, and will be reporting more info as I get it. Again, which ever upper shoots the worst, will receive the Criterion replacement barrel. ( I have high hopes for much better, consistent accuracy ) Photos of its OEM state will follow. |
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I will add... the gas tube was binding the BCG ( via the gas tube interaction ) the same way my first nitrated barreled upper was.
Again That binding will not help accuracy and function ( let alone longevity of parts ) at all. So if yours is like the first photo... fix it for your own good... I'd bet you'll be happy you did. View Quote |
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Was bending the tube upwards to clear the nut not feasible, rather than grinding the nut? Seems that any length lost by re-bending the tube for clearance would help the binding problem you mentioned, unless I don't understand the 'gas tube interaction' to which you are referring. View Quote And the entire top edge was causing binding, all the way to the uppers gas tube hole... so IMHO it was better to leave the gas tube in its "natural" state and just grind the barrel nut down. I am comfortable with the little amount I removed... it was so little that the barrel nut is just fine. |
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Which SLR adjustable gas block did you get? View Quote http://slrrifleworks.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=57_103_168_104&product_id=124 |
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