RE: PSA 16" M4 NITRIDE 1:7 MOE BLK FREEDOM UPPER - WITH BCG & CH - 508045

Does this "Freedom Upper" come with a "Freedom" barrel?

How does one tell which barrel (PTAC/PSA, Freedom, Etc) they have?

Thank you in advance for your assistance in this.

I was told by the PSA rep here it could come with either. You won't know until you receive it. I ordered a PSA mid-length upper with lower MOE build kit, and it came with the Freedom barrel. I was expecting the PSA barrel, which I thought was better than the Freedom barrel. PSA is kind of like a box of chocolates, you never know what your're going to get (Forest Gump). 

well that helps explain why the barrel thread was so hard to get approved/ right. :/

It's going to be a 4150CMV nitrided barrel, what difference does it make whether it does or doesn't say freedom or psa on it?

They responded with saying there was enough incorrect information in that thread to cause confusion, but never corrected any of it.  I have ordered about a dozen, if not more uppers from PSA, but until they start to clarify why one costs more than another I will not be purchasing any from them in the future.  They say that they are clear in disclosing what you are buying on the items page, but I disagree.  They give you the absolute minimum info.  Why is a freedom more than a ptac?  What is the difference between a ptac, PSA, and freedom barrel if all in the same finish?  They have successfully avoided answering these questions. 

Don't get me wrong, I like PSA products and have more PSA ARs than any other brand; but there is no way for the average buyer/customer to know for sure if their PSA/Freedom/PTAC barrel is 4150CMV nitrided or or just plain 4140 barrel steel except to take their word for it. I hope mine are, but with all the confusion on the barrels, I'm not 100% sure. A couple of them are the CFH chrome-lined FN barrels (have the FN roll-mark), which I feel more confident about. 

I honestly thought the PSA barrel thread noting the differences and similarities between the various PSA barrels, along with the other information, was a good thing. Not sure why PSA chose to lock it or discontinue it. I think the OP of that thread (GamecockOperator), an avid PSA supporter, went to great lengths, and put a lot of effort into that thread...   

It seemed as though he had reached out to PSA for clarification, but rather than respond they chose to lock it. Doesn't make much sense, unless they just plain don't want, or cannot answer the question about the differences.  If they don't want to disclose who manufactures barrels for them I can understand to a point, but at least tell us what the difference is. 

and here i go getting into trouble again, but not only did i go to great lengths to get a good framework up, and try to get it as right as i could without being a PSA employee, (although i had been in the past a very avid support of PSA) and without trying to divulge any information that i was told in confidence i might add, only to turn around to not only get that thread locked without being edited/questions answered/ problems corrected, but (and heres really where i go getting myself into trouble)  as an apparent tantrum they unpinned my lower thread (that they were more than fine with for many years now), and then commented when i asked about it in the thread that it had incorrect information/speculation, and was only re-pinned when they edited it.  I find this hilarious as i have a full copy of both threads original posts, (as of my last edits), and there was no corrections made to either thread.  Furthermore, if editing it was all it would have taken, why unpin it to begin with and not just edit it?   I'm sad to say, this is not the first issue ive had with my posts here, and while one is a possible miscommunication, more than one shows childish tantrums in my opinion.  this is a pattern, and you'll note that those of us who used to defend the company solidly are not posting near as much defense as we once did.  I get this is the internet, but its not what you say but how you say it many times.  Unfortunately what some of the replies have been has seriously damaged my opinion of not only the brand but perhaps even the company itself.  It's really sad as there are many really AWESOME people at PSA.  Does PSA have the most awesome prices around? Usually yes.. will i buy there solely because of that? for me no.  I'd rather be treated as a valued person and customer(especially when i tend to get as enthusiastic on a product as i do).   I guess what im saying is what posts were so misleading, so incorrect, and so much speculation that they couldn't edit them themselves, or that they couldn't PM me to make X changes if they didn't want it in the thread? Instead lets lock one, and then unpin the other out of spite?  Makes no sense.  I probably shouldn't have typed all this above, and im sure it'll get the PSA gods pissed at me, but I'll be brutally honest, they're borderline losing me as an enthusiastic cheerleader/supporter.

Well said.

It almost seemed to me like they had someone else posting on the forum who wasn't quite as friendly as the last.  I could be wrong though

thanks.  but i dont think that the leadership will think so.

when this last happened, (a vastly different reply via PM from them in a vastly different tone than the normal replies) it indeed was someone who doesnt usually post.  further more it was someone extremely high up in the company.  Which is why i posted what i did above.  I'm not perfect, but i do try to choose my words very very carefully.  

That said, let me  be extremely clear here.  I am not upset that they locked the barrels thread, or even that they unstickied and then restickied the lowers thread.  What I am upset with is 1.) this is not the first time ive been treated poorly (in my opinion) by PSA on here, and 2.) im disappointed more than anything, on posts that were made to help PSA and their customers differentiate between products so they could not only be informed buyers, (but hopefully even buy more because now the customer knows more about each product and its line.) And heres where the disappointment comes in, is because instead of that being the case they'd rather not answer the confusion, and alienate those of us who were trying to help/fix/define the lineups, and instead we (me) get berated.  

Management (and im not talking as much about store level in the state here) needs to realize that there are plenty more manufacturers out there, and even more SC based ones Like FN, ATI, PTR, and more, that folks like me who love sc made things, can cheerlead and there are plenty of fourms online and on ar15.com that folks can and do post things negatively that they dont have the control over like they do here in their industry area.

Not disclosing where a barrel is sourced is certainly not exclusive to PSA, but I cant think of another company off hand that doesn't disclose the differences between their tiered products.

I've had good luck so far with PSA products, and try to support local as well, but closing the "definitive" thread in the way they did was absurd and did not look good for them.

Thank you for your comments.

The barrels are as described.  Further speculation is not helpful to new customers, and we saw a lot of wild ideas in the barrel thread.

Let me please make a couple of points to ease the confusion.

1. All barrel manufacturers and job shops will make barrels out of 4140, 4150, 410 or 416.   Despite what the internet says, knowing where the barrel comes from does not assist in identifying the barrel steel or quality.

2. We use trusted sources on the barrel steel and the steel carries certifications.  Once a barrel leaves our facility, the customer can do what they want with it, to include alloy analysis.  It is in our best interest to make sure the customer gets what they paid for.  

3. We have sold hundreds of thousands of barrels, and we carry a lifetime warranty on our products.  Our reputation speaks for itself in providing the public quality AR parts at reasonable prices.  


Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

you're welcome, and let me thank you for replying here.  I do appreciate it.

Thanks, but i dont think the actual metal was ever a worry, other than how to tell the naming convention apart.  For instance, what is the difference between a PSA Nitride barrel marked PSA, versus say a PSA Nitride barrel, nonmarked PSA versus a PTAC Nitride barrel unmarked versus a PSA Freedom Marked nitride barrel, and a PSA Freedom unmarked nitride barrel? (by unmarked i mean no PSA, no FREEDOM, NO FN roll makrings, not the caliber / twist markings)



I dont think these were ever in question.  We hve known for long time now that PSA makes quality things out of quality metals and parts.  We also are definately sure 9 times out of 10 times that we get more than we pay for when it comes to buying from PSA.  Or its how i feel.


Agreed about the reputation.  I've been beaten enough over it many times in the past.  but i FULLY agree.  Your deals are hard to beat, and its one reason im such a supporter.  but again, i think the meat of the issue is my comments to statement #1.


thank you again for your reply. I look forward to more thoughtful discussion here.

I STILL would like to know what I originally asked:

Apparently there is a difference between PTAC, PSA, Freedom barrels.

THIS SHOULDN'T BE THAT HARD TO ANSWER.....

I'm sorry, but I have to laugh at this.

You do realize that there is only one true way to end speculation and wild conjecture coming from the consumer, right?

I stopped buying PSA after a canted barrel incident but i'm staying stopped because i don't even know what i'm getting.

That might just be the most ignorant statement I've seen in a long time.  You obviously don't know s#!$ about cigars.  And if I were to take that statement literally.... then I won't EVER be buying any products from you again.  

Agree 100%. I am slowly, but surely falling out of love with them due to their lack of any sort of cooperation regarding info on the products they sell. 

This may be true, but what we were trying to determine in the barrels thread was the actual difference between the lines.  I agree that for the most part the components used appear to be of good quality, but for instance what makes a freedom upper assy. cost more than a ptac?  It is a simple question, but one that for some reason has not been answered. Is it the same barrel as a ptac, but better quality receiver?  Is it the same receiver, but better quality barrel?  What is the difference?  Instead of locking the previous thread due to "incorrect information", tell us what was incorrect. I understand that the barrel manufacturers you use don't need to be disclosed, and I am not asking who makes them. I just want to know the differences between the assembled upper receivers. 

Could have typed the same thing.  I have nearly every level of PSA upper: PTAC, Freedom (nitride and stainless), PSA (non-Freedom), FN CL and CL CHF.  I have shot a lot of ammo through them with problems.

The only issues I've had, so far, are some canted front sights, but nothing the windage adjustment of the rear sight couldn't cure--not worth returning.  (The CHF upper required only 2 clicks of windage from mechanical zero to get center hits at 100yds).

My concern started a few months ago when I bought a PSA nitride upper and the barrel was only marked with the caliber and twist, no PSA, no Freedom.

I had a concern about the PSA complete upper, with MOE lower build kit, I ordered that came with a Freedom barrel; had Freedom 5.56 Nato 1/7 laser etched/painted (?) into the barrel. No where in the ad did it say the barrel was a Freedom barrel.  When I posted about it here on this forum, the PSA rep said the PSA upper with lower build kit could come with either barrel.

I hate to keep repeating myself, but either PSA isn't understanding what's being said/asked in this thread, or we are not understanding what PSA is saying in response, based on their recent comments. Seems like there is a disconnect in communication somewhere, whether inadvertent or intentional...   

Very easy, look at the area between the FSB and the flash hider.  The answer lies there.

If if that's the case then there is no difference between PTAC and Freedom. That's what the barrels thread was trying to decipher.  If there in fact is no difference, then why the price difference?  And if it was that simple PSA would have answered the question already, unless they don't want to let on that there is no difference except the name of the line. 

Just a quick comment.  I do understand everyone's desire to have the differences explained,  and frankly don't understand PSA's reluctance to clarify.

However,  c'mon, we're not buying tier 1 stuff here. At the end of the day,  if it's accurate,  reliable and priced righ for my needs,  I guess i just don't care.

J/s

PSA randomly decided not to ship ammo to cook county, IL. It's not illegal, so SGAmmo gets my business now. Good job PSA!

Hmmm, I pretty much only buy PSA at this point, and have referred about half a dozen colleagues to do the same.

I see the usual hee-haw every now and again from some unhappy customer and it's always resolved in a way that I was proud of being such a promoter of the company.

The information exists, im just thinking the vendor desires not to disclose it, which is a bummer.

Good to know though.

Maybe it's just simple marketing...it's done all the time.
I've worked in a manufacturing field and had similar marketing program where two same products with same specifications all built from same component suppliers were marketed as two different products...one is the standard quality product while other was marketed as "economy" version with slightly lower price and different packaging but in reality both were same quality product.  The economy version were sold only couple times a year to push sales in slightly different market that we normally didn't sell to.  By buying larger quantities of components we get some discount from suppliers and during assembly we get economy of scale advantage by running the production line longer so the overall cost of building the product was a little cheaper.  Selling both the standard and economy version allowed us to introduce our name and products to new markets by lowering the price on the economy version.  In the end we make same margin on the economy version but larger margin on the standard version so our overall margin didn't change...we just sold more units...more revenue.  
The other possibility is just using same high quality component for all products across the product line to save money.  It's sometimes cheaper to buy one high quality component than buying two different quality components...one high and one lower quality.  This is done all the time in manufacturing as cost analysis dictate your decision.

I don't buy anything from them anymore, you never know what you're going to get.. I last ordered three buffer tubes and they were all different, I don't trust them anymore.. they carry three different quality lines so you never know what you're getting. I stick with BACK or one of the other known companies.

It used to be that there was a visible difference between the lines (barrel markings). Now it seems the PTAC and Freedom both have the same barrel markings. The Freedom ones I've received recently do not say Freedom on the barrels like they used to.  I don't know if there was ever a difference in the past, but at least there was the illusion in the past that something was different between the two lines. Now I feel like I've spent a little more on Freedom, when I should have just ordered the PTAC.  I get that they aren't tier 1 components, but a little transparency in exactly what you're buying goes a long way. The whole "the details are on the product page" doesn't jive with me if you're trying to sell me something that costs more for the same exact components as the economy line. 

The longer PSA goes without shedding some light on these questions the more misinformation will spread. It seems they don't really care though. I suspect they will lock this thread too soon without ever even trying to give any real answers like they did the barrel thread. 

It could very well be that the same barrels are used for PTAC and Freedom now.  More likely there are differences between PTAC and Freedom barrels but sometimes when they feel they need to put out some PTAC and they don't have any PTAC barrels in stock they'll just use Freedom barrels.  In stead of feeling like you spent too much on Freedom line you can order PTAC and feel like you got more than your money's worth.  

As for the barebone information on the product page I can understand that as it allows factory to have flexibility on how you build your product...build to quality level expected or higher.  Having to depend on various suppliers for barrel, bolt, CH, etc. you will at times not be able to get some component so you go up the quality scale to build the product.  

Sorry if I'm starting to sound like PSA defender but coming from similar industry I can understand why they so things in certain way.  I think in most, if not all, cases what you receive is the quality you expected or higher...at least that's how it was at my old job.

i totally understand where you are.  Im borderline offering my GCO name and presence on the web up to PSA for sale and bailing entirely.  Especially after the last tantrum.

Honestly, everyone in this thread are making a lot of good points about the barrel confusion.  Im surprised the threads not locked already. :/

Give it time...

Good input. These are both perfectly valid concepts in my book.

I can also see the text coming off barrels as a cost reduction measure (therefore transferring savings to the customer)

If I could buy a complete rifle for $415 that has Laser markings on the barrel & T-Marks on the upper versus a complete rifle for $395 without - I'd choose the latter (personal preference)

In my past I've worked on projects to deliver the same quality product at a lower cost to the customer several times. Markings can sometimes be low hanging fruit because the companies quality and inventory tracking internally ensured the product was sound, albeit the customer no longer had the visual indicator.

ok.. i get that.  the question i have here is, was that product being sold as the original product name/line, or was it being sold as a cost savings lower product?

sadly i think the issue that folks are afraid of is buying something and not getting what they bought, or that they are spending money unnecessarily, if the other product is identical to the lower priced one, including marking.  

I look at it like my truck, i didnt buy a plain chevy truck, and i didnt buy the top of the line LTZ either.  I bought the mid line, cause its the compromise i could afford between top of the line and base model.  If the Mid line, is the same exact as the base model, just minus badging, why would i buy the mid line?

I'm kinda glad I held off on buying a PSA upper.

THIRD REQUEST - PLEASE ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: PSA 16" M4 NITRIDE 1:7 MOE BLK FREEDOM UPPER - WITH BCG & CH - 508045

Does this "Freedom Upper" come with a "Freedom" barrel?

How does one tell which barrel (PTAC/PSA, Freedom, Etc) they have?

Silence is Golden, But not Always!

They are avoiding answering these questions at all costs. They will almost certainly lock this thread now to avoid answering. 

well if we ever get definitive answers, i can repost the barrel thread as i have copies of my last posts on the threads i post code.  I tend to be a bit meticulous on that because of the work that went into it, i write the posts off line then i post them.  

I still hold out hope for having the clarification happen, and thus being able to assist folks with what they are buying quality/level wise.

Good; save the info from your PSA barrel thread; I thought it was well done, and excellent information. PSA evidently thought otherwise. 

As someone else has mentioned, I'm surprised this thread is still here. The OP has asked their original questions here 3 times already, and still hasn't received an answer. Some of the staunch PSA supporters here say the quality differences in the barrels doesn't matter, because they are all good barrels. That may be true, but PSA themselves has stated there is a difference in quality levels; and, it matters to the customer who orders the barreled uppers (or at least most of them). On the other hand, their ads do not clearly state exactly which barrel your upper may come with. 

From what I gather, PSA wants their customers to just trust them... that is hard to do with so much confusion and contradiction regarding specific information on their barrels. Perhaps GamecockOperator is right, maybe PSA will relent and communicate the differences in quality levels in their various barrels, lowest tier to highest tier, and everything in between... (which is what GamecockOperator tried to do) 

Never understood how bent out of shape these people get over PSA.

It's like making thread after thread in a Hesse or Blackthrone forum asking for specs or parts sources when you know, intimately, it's just bottom of the barrel crap anyway.

Easy answer for you is to go somewhere else. More money but then you will know right?

thanks for the kind words henry.  Ive tried to be a help to psa, a postive source in the darkness of everyone bitching about shipping, or this that or the other.  I've enjoyed all my PSA gear, and continue to support.  I am selective generally though as to what i buy, and generally only keep with the FN CHF items barrel wise.  

I'm not sure what the hold up is here, other than some of what ive been told by the owner about possible non disclosure agreements and the like concerning who makes what and for whom, now that PSA themselves had announced they are part of a conglomerate, well i was able to talk about that too..

I do keep my "difinitive threads" backed up, as i write most outside of teh forum anyways in a word processing software.  At this point, i dont know if we'll ever have a clearly defined tier system by PSA, but for now i will continue to buy from them as i know what i like and can afford and buy regularly that said, however, since trump came into office, the bottom has fell out of AR pricing, and everyone thinks any PSA rifle is a 400.00 base rifle.  :/

In my opinion, they answered this loud and clear by simply not answering.

They did the same thing with lowers too.

Funny thing I actually have one of their lower sitting around. Half tempted to give it the ol bandsaw treatment They had no issues shipping them before.

I'm wondering if Tom Dart sent out some threatening emails even though their firearm laws/powers only apply to unincorporated areas.

I just finished a 9mm build and Recoil Guns got my money and shipped me a lower with no shenanigans.

I'm pretty much avoiding buying uppers from them as well.

Their premium lines are out standing, I will give them that. But I noticed they don't list as many premium uppers as they used too.

Kinda wondering if the FN barrels are going to get phased out in favor of freedom/ptac.

Yep, the names of the barrels don't mean anything.  Just read what the specs are.  Some people will never listen though,

You should really re read what's going on here.

All this aside, yesterday, when I saw a pencil barrel MOE Freedom upper for $170 shipped, I couldn't help myself and grabbed it.  I have been shooting one for several months and love it.

Whatever barrels they are using for the freedom line now are decent from my experience. I still wish I knew the difference between them and ptac though. 

In most cases PTAC barrels are 4140 instead of 4150 and phosphate finished instead of nitride.  


Again, this is all (usually) spelled out in the descriptions of the products.