1 MOA ALL DAY LONG

Alright guys and girls, to time hit the range again.

Thanks to the previous folks that worked on this in the past  Stantonizm, ARFCOM originator  BillyDoubleU and to the Sniper's Hide originator.

Old threads

Akethan's 2013-2014  GD Thread

Stantonizm's

2013   MOA Thread

BillyDoubleU's

2012  Original ARFCOM thread

ARFcom MOA history

This is the Official “How Good Are You” thread of AR15.com

What is it? It’s a challenge to all to prove how good you really are with a rifle! Not sometimes but consistently.

Keep it simple 5 shot groups, 5 groups per target

1 MOA = 100 Yards = 1.047"
––––––––-50 Yards = 0.5235"
––––––––-25 Yards = 0.26175"

Top 25 for each division

Separate list of 1 MOA shooters and a separate list for .5 MOA shooters.

REMEMBER this, all 5 groups of 5 shots must AVERAGE 1 MOA to make the list and claim the title of being a 1 MOA shooter.

Doing one .99" group and four 1.5" groups does not equal a 1 MOA shooter, it means you got lucky once and you are a 1.398 MOA shooter (assuming a 100 yard target)

This is a challenge but don't be afraid to try it out and post, every possible rifle style has been listed with a category and a distance. It's all in good fun and to be honest about your abilities.

With that in mind here are the rules.

1. ONE sheet of paper, 8.5”x11” preferred and it MUST HAVE ALL 5 targets.

Meaning 1 sheet of paper with FIVE targets. NO INDIVIDUAL TARGETS. THEY WILL NOT COUNT.

2. On that 1 sheet of paper with 5 targets you shoot 5 groups of 5 shots each. (In one day)

3. Each group is measured OUTSIDE GREASE RING TO OUTSIDE GREASE RING with calipers (preferred) or tape rule in inches. Then subtract the diameter of one bullet IE if your shooting a .223 and your 5 shot group measures 1.13" you will subtract 0.224" to get a group of 0.906". If you are shooting a .22lr you will subtract 0.223", for a 308 you will subtract 0.308" (Remember- the more precise your measurement the better)

Some common measurements:
.172" - .17 HMR
.223" - .22 Short, Long, Long Rifle
.224" - .223 Remington, .22 WMR, .22 Hornet
.243" - .243 Winchester
.284" - 7mm-08 Remington, 7mm Mag
.308" - .308 Winchester, .30-06, .300 Mag
.311" - 7.62x39 Soviet, .303 British
.338" - .338 Mag

4. NO MECHANICAL REST/SLED, NO VICE OR SIMILAR DEVICE THAT SUPPORTS THE ENITRE RIFLE, NO SHOOTING JACKETS, NO STRAPPING THE GUN INTO ANYTHING, NO LARGE REAR SANDBAG ** OR REST. SHOOTER MUST HAVE POSITIVE CONTROL OF RIFLE.

THE POINT IS TO SEE HOW GOOD YOU SHOOT, NOT HOW WELL YOU CAN MOUNT IT IN A MACHINE.

5. OK TO USE sandbag, rest, ruck, bipod, rock with a hat, sling etc. on forearm of the rifle.

**Will be OK to use a small rear sandbag (ie: sand sock or squeeze bag) or bean bag  that must require constant hand pressure to maintain hold on target.

IE. Can NOT sandbag gun in place. Shooter must maintain positive control of rifle. No formed or V-shaped rests/bags

Some approved bags

Triad Red Tac

Triad Wedgie

CrossTac Squeeze bag

Accuracy First shooting bag

*** After much gnashing of the teeth we'll set the limit of size at the largest bag on the list which is 96 C.I.  Try to stay at or below this.

But remember that there must be constant hand pressure to maintain hold on target.

IE. Can NOT sandbag gun in place. Shooter must maintain positive control of rifle. No formed or V-shaped rests/bags. I'm sure someone will IM me or bitch about this but I can't make everyone happy. Have Fun!

6. Shooting position is up to you, sitting, standing, prone.

7. Posting:

1st picture of target set at the range you are shooting. If you are shooting more than one rifle at the same range using the same pic is okay.

2nd picture with 5 groups of 5 shots each, next to them write down group size.

3rd picture with calipers (or tape rule) left in place over BEST group.

4th picture of rifle and shooting setup (ie. Sandbag, prone and so on). Post all4 pics and also type in the post your 5 group sizes and what the average is. IE. .99”, 1.5”, 1.5”, 1.5”, 1.5” add them up, equals 6.99” and divide by five. So 6.99/5 = 1.398”

You can use the MOA formula, either way I will check the math and post the MOA on the result list.

For those of you who would like to use ontarget,   http://ontargetshooting.com/

Also type up specs of your rifle and ammo IE. Rem 700 with 168gr Federal SMK or Colt AR15 18" with Wolf 55gr FMJ or AK with 125gr Hand Loads PLEASE INCLUDE AMMO USED

*** Please include result at the end of your post in the final format:

Division you wish to be listed under with range, User_Name: Rifle Manufacturer and caliber - notable customizations- Scope- Ammo. Groups: 1"/2"/3"/4"/5" = avg. 3" = .287 MOA

If you do not post in this format or leave anything out your post will not be included.

8. In each division you can only have your name up once per gun. Meaning that if you shoot the Iron Sight 22lr with your 10/22 and average a 1.65” group and lets say place 4th. If you use that same gun and do worse, even if you would place better then someone else it will not count for your group. Best group counts.

Now if you then shoot Iron Sight 22lr with your M&P 15-22 and shoot better, say 1.25” average groups and place 2nd. Both that score and the 10/22 score will remain. Different guns will be allowed for different group rankings within a division. Best group counts.

This also goes for the 1 MOA list. Meaning only your best MOA will be ranked on the 1 MOA list BUT if you also shoot 1 MOA or less with a different rifle, that will also count and your name will be added to the list for each different rifle you shoot 1 MOA or less with.

9. Remember, this is NOT a Bullseye challenge, it's a Groups challenge.

10. Any and all ammo is fine I don't care if you use Factory loads or your super secret Hand Load that Moses gave you.

11. Ties in average will go to the shooter with the smallest group.

Service Division (AR/AK/FAL/M1A1 etc style weapons)
Iron sights at 50 yards

Non-Magnified Optic at 50 yards

SPR Division (AR/AK/FAL/M1A etc WITH magnified optics) **See rule 5
100 yards

Bolt Division with magnified optics (any precision gun) ** See rule 5
100 yards

And for cheapness a 22lr Division

Any 22lr rifle with iron sights at 25 yards

Any 22lr rifle with non-magnified optic at 50 yards

Any 22lr rifle with magnified optic at 50 yards

Any 22lr rifle with magnified optic at 100 yards

Misc Small Bore Division
Any .17HMR/.17HM2/.17Fireball/.22WMR/.22 Hornet etc etc etc with any sighting system (Irons/nonmagnified/magnified) at 100 yards **See Rule 5

Unlimited Division
Catch-all class for anyone wishing to use a lead-sled, large sandbag set-up, or other assisting device prohibited from the other classes. 50yd minimum for non magnified optic rifles and 100 yd minimum for magnified optics of all calibers. Does not qualify you for MOA shooter list, but will be recognized as an MOA rifle owner. Further more if you have shot the same setup and are listed in a class you will not be eligible for unlimited. Let's not turn this into a full blown bench rest shoot.

Click to download target
Downloadable target

Small BFL Target

Modified 1MOA All Day Target MUAD hosted

ARFcom BFL w/grid target  LaRue hosted.

MOA formula

How many MOA equal 2 inches at 200 yards?
(inches / yards) x 100 = MOA
(2 inches / 200 yards) x 100 = 1 MOA

This is for those that want to put up an honest effort and show what they can do!

If you post a placeholder for a future attempt, be sure and notify me if you are not updated!

If entries start coming in and you post your results back on an earlier page, I might miss it if you don't point it out.

Thanks.  Owner needs more practice.

Gonna have another entry tomorrow hopefully if all goes well. Gonna be trying out a 12" Larue Stealth which arrived this week. The Factory target was .498 so I know the rifle can do it. Gotta find a load it likes but I've got a lot of things to try.

I'm coming after ya for the number one spot.

My first day of load development went very well and the result posted on the previous page, but there is still a huge gap between .542 and .340 that's not easy to close.

Bring it! I saw the post. Truly some excellent shooting.

Don't forget to pull at least one shot per group!

I can see I am going to have to get out and shoot some more if I am going to stay in the top 5...

Actually... I found a load that wasn't horrible in the rifle, considering it was a 12" with a suppressor, but sadly, my target was disqualified as someone started shooting my target with 9mm... If it weren't for that, I think I could have improved on what you see.

This was the result though. .597 moa if I calculated correctly.

I know, right? The shitty part is, my range as of about 3-4 weeks ago said no more pistols on the Rifle side of the range, yet here this guy was, blasting away with 3 pistols when nobody was looking.

Not only that, but 2 benches down was a family messing with an AK that was spitting steel all over the place. It was 75 degrees and I ended up putting on a hoody just to cover my head from hot steel hitting me.

As we spoke about, I'll have this rifle right where you wanted it. No problem at all. I was shooting 77gr SMK's over Varget in Lapua brass with Federal Match Primers. Next up is ladder testing and then some 8208XBR and possibly Reloader 15.

Agree it's pretty obvious which ones are the 9mm hits.

I would highly recommend 8208 for that 12" barrel. Seems to me you'd get more optimal velocities given the shorter barrel and faster burn rate of 8208. I'm actually going to do the opposite and switch to varget to take advantage of the 20" barrel. I'm not quite getting the velocities I'm hoping for with 8208.

I wish I could. Since it was a dq in my mind I trashed my target. Just took the pic for reference.

I need to put up a copy of the target I received with the upper too. That average doesn't beat your shooter, Mark. And I'd like to make some changes to that rifle. A polymer kit and trigger from you and some other things. I love that sl stock for Cq stuff but prone and target shooting it's horrible with a bag. The trigger in it was an ssa-e. Great trigger but I'm gonna have to start swapping around maybe. I like your wide pad.

What is his screen name?

Lennyo3034

C'mon now, I'm better than that....










...I would have used a .22 and said they all came out of his rifle.

I normally do load with 8208. I just had the Varget loads already made from my 18" Rifle I've been shooting the challenge with.

Here is a new submission:

SPR 100 yd, SpeyRod, LaRue Stealth 18"/13.2 + LaRue Lower + Burris sig select 3-12, 77gr Berger over Varget, ..380/.877/.725/.940/.627= ..710 MOA

I think I am running up against the limits with this set up whether it is me, my load or the equipment. Until I can make some changes this will have to do.




]

You're definitely hitting a limit. What I'm seeing is a rifle that has groups opening up. That limit, as you stated could be anything. Could be from the shooter, barrel temperature, wind, inconsistant powder drops in the reloads, Reloads the barrel simply doesn't love (But still performs admirably with), etc...

Which it is I couldn't fathom to guess since I don't know the details, but if you could keep the groups consistant with that first one, obviously it would reduce the average group size.

How many rounds are through the barrel? Is it an LW or Larue in house? And what type of time in between shots?

So I went to the range for round 2 of load development. Since I'm still waiting on fedex to deliver my powder, I tried 8208 again. Unfortunately, I was only able to get one group of 5 off before Boy scouts came for a shooting event. I let them have the range and will go back another day. However, these were the 5 rounds I fired today:



Measured .332". Too bad I can't use this group as future ones will be on a different day, but this krieger is showing potential. For whatever reason, the velocities on this group were not so good. I haven't run the numbers for a SD, but the ES was 70 fps.

Mike,

This is an in house barrel with @ 800 rounds through it. I have to say I will own up that I am the weak link. I have a tendency to bang through groups and call it good. This target was shot in two ten shot strings and one five shot string. My rate was one shot at the bottom of my third or fourth breath. I am still working on the timing of the break of my shots. I know I am getting better because I called the break on the second and last group that broke low. From the first shot I knew I had to focus on breaking on the same spot and I was able to keep them in a respectable group on the last one.

As far as the gun is concerned, every range session since I got it back from LaRue I am getting at least one sub .5" group. I think the gun is gtg I just need to fine tune my load and my technique.

But then perhaps I need to think of it another way. It's all the guns fault, I better order another one!

My apologies if you've already answered this, but what does your body position look like behind the rifle? Are you directly behind it or at and angle like shooting from sling? Are you preloading the bipod?

No problem, I am always open to input and questions. I do my best to square up the whole system. I start by lining the gun and pad up on the target. Then I line up as strait as I can behind the gun. Feet are spread to a comfortable position. I mount the gun, line everything up and then load the bipods on the pad straps. I am working on how much load to give it but think I am loading pretty heavy.

One thing I do notice is my head position has to be reset on each shot. I am not using a cheek riser on the LaRue stock and that may be a part of my problem.

Thanks for any input.

I'm not sure how much effect the head position reset has. On my rifle, My head stays put and I am able to see bullet impact. The reticle does not move much at all. However on other rifles I've shot, the recoil throws my POA way off and my head position is completely reset. However accuracy is maintained.

I would try putting a little less load on the bipod. You can really put a lot of preload if you are using the straps, more than you think. Depending on your rail and upper setup, it's possible you're putting load into the barrel via barrel nut, or for smaller rails you might be causing it to make contact with the gas block. Be sure to load the bipod with your body weight and position and not to actually push up on it. I've actually used my legs to push up to load the bipod before and consistency went to shit.

Honestly, from what you described and the picture of your rifle in position, I don't really think it's the shooter. Maybe look at your ammo? I'm not familiar with the bullet you're using but I do know some berger VLDs have to be seated right up next to the lands, which I don't think is possible and still be mag length in an AR.

I didn't plan on doing this challenge today, I was trying 5 different factory loads to see which one my new gun likes. As you can see for factory loads it likes everything but 168 FGMM. However, it more than qualifies for this challenge. OH58DViper, bolt division.

Top Left.            168 AMAX from hornady =        .429
Top right.           168 FGMM =.                           1.000
Middle.               175 Black Hills =.                       .604
Bottom left.         168 Hornady BTHP =.               .522
Bottom right.       168 Black Hills =.                      .748

Gun is a Surgeon 591 SA in .308 in an AICS AX chassis, jewel trigger, border barrel 20", done by dan dowling, harris BRMS, bushnell XRS G2 4.5-30. Home made afghanibeats bag rest. 100yds windy as crap. If I had a steadier target I'm sure it would have been better. Anyways, .660 / .630MOA ain't bad! If I only knew how to hand load....






ETA: Bolt Division 100yd; OH58DViper: Surgeon 591 .308 20" border barrel - Bushnell 4.5-30 in Badger Rings, 5 different factory loads, groups .429" / .604" / .522" / 1.00" / .748" = .660 = 630 MOA

Fancy a trade? I'd give my left nut for siete #0001

One day I'd love to get behind one of those. Glass first for the Tobr (Current mission is to find an optic so I can shoot the Tobr this weekend), then it's penny saving time.

Submission.

16" BCM Lightweight BFH upper with 13" KMR rail and Geissele SSA-E.
TA33-8 ACOG
Australian Outback .223 69gr SMK BTHP

SPR Division, with optics at 100 yards, Hossolo: BCM 16" LW BFH in 5.56mm - KMR13, Geissele SSA-E - TA33-8 - Australian Outback .223 69gr SMK BTHP. Groups: 1.07"/1.12"/1.81"/1.92"/2.19" = avg. 1.622" =  1.54MOA


Range



Rifle



Ammo



Stand



Results



Calipers



Computer

Not sure why my images aren't showing up as embedded.

Low post count. Images have to be approved by a certain number of team members before they show up for everyone. Nice shooting/rifle.

Updated today. If you didn't see yours update it's because you didn't follow the posting rules.


Here's what your entry should look like.  

SPR 100yd; Mike_P: Larue Stealth upper .223 Rem 18"/13.2" - Predatobr Black gold trigger + Atlas Bipod + A2 stock - 12x SWFA SS in LT104, 77gr FGMM, Groups 0.597 / 0.345 / 0.249 / 0.248 / 0.265 = avg .340 MOA




You can IM me once it's fixed and I will get you added.

Target in foreground to right is at 50 for the service division, target for 100 yard is in background.
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SPR Magnified optic 100 yards/GardensandGuns/ BCM SS 18" 1/8 .223 w/ Vortex PST 1-4,G2S trigger, Harris bipod. 55gr Hornady FMJBT on 24gr H335

Groups:2.219/2.533/1.324/1.165/1.382 = 1.7246 - .224= 1.5006/1.047= 1.433 MOA

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Service Division 50 yards/GardensandGuns/ Springfield M1A Loaded/ .308 PPU 168gr match

Groups:1.975/2.243/2.135/2.055/2.682 = 2.218 -.308= 1.91"/.5235= 3.65MOA

Edited because I suck at Math/ Thought MOA was an inch at 100 yards/Recalculated with correct multiplier.

Dude, that is danm good shooting. I am kinda going???? though, you don't load your own but you have a dang fancy gun... Kinda like buying a NASCAR , and hiring tony stewart to drive it for you because you wont try and learn to drive stick shift... I am working on load development for my rifle so gotta wait a week.

I've got a $1600 reloading kit in my Midway, Amazon, and Brownells carts. I have 3 high end customs and a couple plinkers, it's time I think. I just had to find someone to teach me. More entries coming this summer, I anticipate wrecking the former entry I made.

Good luck but please BE CAREFUL. Never take shortcuts. I've destroyed a $1200 receiver and accidentally mixed H4350 with varget this weekend and loaded it into rounds. Luckily I realized it before my range trip and pulled the rounds.

None of my normal shooting rests would be legal for this exercise so I nailed some 2X4s together and covered them with a piece of carpet.  I used a single 2X4 under some carpet for the rear then used my hand under the butt.  The rifle shoots much better from a proper rest.










Bolt division with magnified optics 100 Yards.  Neopo8 Trued Remington 700 2oz Jewel trigger 6mm BR lapua. .272 neck Shilen 26 in barrel 8 twist.  105 Hornady Amax bullets. Laupa cases, Varget powder CCI benchrest primers. 6.5X20 Leupold scope. Stock is unfinished Richards Microfit thumbhole benchrest model in laminated rosewood.

Groups: 1=.507/ 2=.806/ 3=.300/ 4=.610/ 5=.560.  AVG=.556

well I made it out to the range, I still haven't been able to beat my last score. This time I was able to achieve 1.168 MOA.

I found something funny. I took all 4 targets from my attemptes and picking the best 5 groups from those and it was .853 MOA.

So a buddy of mine is looking to rebarrel a rifle and I referred him to this thread. Looking at the top 10, I notice there is a LOT of Larue up there...

Nice shooting.

I like that pic of the M1A, too.

Thanks Evr! I appreciate your kind words!

Havent been added to the official list yet. Obviously Akethan will have to double check my math.

Should be a good baseline to work from. Just started reloading, so hopefully I can improve these results.

I just noticed I was placed #1 in Service Division. Thank you, Akethan!

HPRB, That is some bad ass shooting, especially with iron sights, WOW!

What page is your submission on? I would like to take a look at your set up.

Middle of 9, I think.





Yep: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_17/51___ARFCOM_1_MOA_ALL_DAY_LONG__Challenge_.html&page=9#i25624





An older pic, but this is a better representation:




 

Sorry if its been covered but what is the formula for converting group size to MOA?

Ex.

If my group average is 1.75" at 100 yards what is that in MOA and how do you calculate that?

1 MOA = 100 Yards = 1.047"
––––––––-50 Yards = 0.5235"
––––––––-25 Yards = 0.26175"
From OP

Yeah, I knew that. Just had a brain fart moment and was trying to over think it.

Nvmd.
 

Awesome!!!!!

That is really great shooting.

Yer not dun yet!!

Now, check out the following challenge.  You gotta shoot that one, too!!

Rules are pretty simple.

Have at it.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1744566_.html

Not happy with the groups :(

First time out. 77gr CBC OTMs Ran out, thus only 4 groups, sorry.

Average is 1.701 MOA
NOT HAPPY