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Posted: 4/22/2016 5:06:57 PM EDT
[#1]
Sound like you'd want a 30.06.
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Posted: 4/22/2016 5:16:03 PM EDT
[#2]
6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel either will do the job on deer at that range. 'Deadly" has to do with SHOT PLACEMENT.
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Posted: 4/22/2016 6:50:38 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
What is the most powerful, deadliest caliber that will fit in a standard AR15 receiver for white tail deer out to 250 yrds? I'm looking real hard at the 6.8 SPC. According to the reloading manual, the 6.8 is almost identical in ballistics to a .243 win. but using a shorter barrel. Using a 95 grain Barnes bullet I could zero in at 50 yrds and be able to hold dead on out to 250 yrds and only be 2.5" or so low. I would love to find something that will fire a 120-150 grain bullet at around 2800fps from a 16" barrel. Does such a beast exist? thanks, swampie I Will catch hell for this and you didn't ask but>>>> If 250 is your absolute max max distance, then 223 will do fine on whitetail. Key is proper hunting bullet and shot placement. There is no magic caliber. A better cartridge is no problem, but 223 will be fine, prefer to keep it under 200 personally. Some people use more bullet for sloppy shot placement. I've helped em track little ass deer shot with 06 and 270 and 308 and numerous others. Neighbors kid has killed a metric ton of whitetails with a single shot 223 at various yardages from 75 to 175. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 7:03:18 PM EDT
[#4]
270 WIN
Just being a butt. I think the 6.5G is gonna be the best all around hunter in the AR platform. Laser out to 600yds, very little drop at 1000, for some crazy reason it flies true out to 1200 of the barrel and load is right. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 7:31:51 PM EDT
[#5]
25.06
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Posted: 4/22/2016 7:45:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
What is the most powerful, deadliest caliber that will fit in a standard AR15 receiver for white tail deer out to 250 yrds? I'm looking real hard at the 6.8 SPC. According to the reloading manual, the 6.8 is almost identical in ballistics to a .243 win. but using a shorter barrel. Using a 95 grain Barnes bullet I could zero in at 50 yrds and be able to hold dead on out to 250 yrds and only be 2.5" or so low. I would love to find something that will fire a 120-150 grain bullet at around 2800fps from a 16" barrel. Does such a beast exist? thanks, swampie Your already on the best cartridge for the job. Nothing in an AR15 will push a 120gr 2800 out of a 16in barrel. The 6.8 also has the best selection of available bullets for the job. Both to the reloaders and factory ammo. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 8:44:30 PM EDT
[#7]
6.5...
will hit hard at 300M. hornady claims 2600 out of an Amax 123gr. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 9:15:36 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
What is the most powerful, deadliest caliber that will fit in a standard AR15 receiver for white tail deer out to 250 yrds? I'm looking real hard at the 6.8 SPC. According to the reloading manual, the 6.8 is almost identical in ballistics to a .243 win. but using a shorter barrel. Using a 95 grain Barnes bullet I could zero in at 50 yrds and be able to hold dead on out to 250 yrds and only be 2.5" or so low. I would love to find something that will fire a 120-150 grain bullet at around 2800fps from a 16" barrel. Does such a beast exist? thanks, swampie Are you a hand loader? Like wildcats? 375 SOCOM is plenty powerful and deadly from a 16" AR. If not 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC II are plenty for whitetail. My local academy stocks both, and you can get bulk ammo on the net. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 9:31:37 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.5...
will hit hard at 300M. hornady claims 2600 out of an Amax 123gr. Read the barrel length |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 9:46:11 PM EDT
[#10]
So, the 6.8 still looks to be the best IMO. Nothing wrong with the 6.5 except barrel length.
swampie |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 10:56:27 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, the 6.8 still looks to be the best IMO. Nothing wrong with the 6.5 except barrel length. swampie You are correct. As well, nothing touches the 6.8 cost wise for hunting ammo with good brass you can sell if you dont reload. The XM68GD 90gr at 2850 from a 16in barrel and the S&B 110 PTS which can be had for $9.99 and $13.99 respectively. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 11:06:06 PM EDT
[#12]
458 Socom will hit out to 250yds, Ballistics simliar to 45-70
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Posted: 4/22/2016 11:48:51 PM EDT
[#13]
A 22lr will shoot out to 250 yrds too but has a rainbow trajectory. I assume the 458 does as well. 30-06, 270, 25-06, 308......... all way to big for the standard AR15. Now if there were a 458 necked down to .30 cal..........that may possibly work???? 223 is to small for hunting around here. The 30 RAR looked interesting until I found out it used a proprietary upper. IDK about a 16" barrel though.
And yes, I reload. swampie |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 12:34:07 AM EDT
[#14]
Shooting a Grendel with 100gr bullets will get you plenty of performance out to those ranges and even have a bit better ballistic coefficiency than the 6.8 bullet.
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Posted: 4/23/2016 1:28:34 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, the 6.8 still looks to be the best IMO. Nothing wrong with the 6.5 except barrel length. swampie This is something I saw repeated and took at face value for years until I ended up with a 16" Grendel. The 6.5 Grendel performs better than any other cartridge if you're talking about hit probability and retained energy, from a short barrel, even 10.5". Take any of the low BC, lightweight projectiles shot at fast muzzle velocity, then watch what happens to them by 100yds: Energy bleeds off way fast. A lot of people make the mistake of looking at muzzle velocity, and not the downrange retained energy, or the Point Blank Range. You can punt an 85gr really fast from: .25-45 Sharps 6.5 Grendel 6.8 SPC And they all will track the same trajectory and windage-wise, as the speeds will be very close from the same barrel lengths. Only one of them has common projectiles in the .500+ BC region (6.5mm), so retained energy will be demonstrably more on target, and expansion threshold will be in your favor, as well as less wind deflection so you really don't need to hold in a 10mph full value wind even at 250yds with a 16" AR15. A 14.5" even will give you 240yds point blank range when using plain factory ammo with a BC that high, because it doesn't get deflected as much in higher winds. The longer SD projectiles also have excellent penetration and expansion due to long ogive and long tail end to retain mass after expansion, which is a problem for short, light projectiles with stubby little ogives. If you want to hit the animal with less retained energy and a lower impact speed at 250yds, with more chance of a miss of the vitals, then I would pick something other than 6.5 Grendel. For your states purposes, a 10.5"-14.5" 6.5 Grendel will cover your bases better than any other SBR carbine with those lengths that shoots factory ammunition currently. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 2:06:28 AM EDT
[#16]
As you can see the G guys showed up, touting BC yet again.
Its laughable as BC plays no bearing inside 300 yards. Cracks me up every time. Then you will see it prowess touted in short barrels. Yet Hornady states 2350 from a 16in with their prized 123 SST or Amax. Then they say its capable of so much more. While in another thread today state that they see many flattened primers with same said ammunition. With others stating that ammunition is already hot. If you read carefully between the lines everything they say you'll see through it. Here a quote for you from today. "You can also see flattened primers in the AR15 with much lower pressures when there is slop like we normally have. I would say at least half of my Hornady 123gr factory ammo shows flattened primers, and we have tested those loads with calibrated pressure trace periodically over the past 24 months. They always register around 49,500 psi" Openly admitting they have sloppy chambers that show pressure signs at below 50,000 psi, while then stating in their reloading manual they can run 52,000 to 54,000 psi. Well tell me which is it? Constant contradictions. Its well known that the 6.8 runs better than the 6.5 in shorter barrels. But trying to sell the 6.5G they will say whatever they think fits. Then your post will get flooded with the same old batch of photos they have posted time and time again. Now they are up in arms about some of us outrunning the 6.5G in 22in barrels with the 6.8. Also kinda humorous. Then you will hear on and on about all the high BC 6.5 projectiles they have. Without them saying its a very limited number of them that will actually perform on game at the slower than average speed of the 6.5G due to its pressure limitations. Oh yes we'll hear it all. Read between the lines and its pretty darn clear.... They will also avoid the rewards reloading can give you, which the 6.8 rewards nicely. Why do they avoid this? Because they are already flattening primers below 50,00 psi. Try and push a 6.5G and you'll break bolts, known fact. How did the gentleman put it again??? Ahh yes, I quote... "Wow, I got back from work and discovered that this thread blew up faster than a 6.5g bolt with a hot handload." |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 4:23:39 AM EDT
[#17]
250 Yards for a Whitetail, boy, I have shot 19 Whitetails in the last 10 years(Yes Legally) and never shot more than 50 yards, where in the heck are you hunting Whitetails that it takes a gun set up for 250 yards? Heck, even in eastern Montana, where I hunt pronghorns, I never shoot more than a hundred yards and I use my .270 for them.
This year, for Whitetails, I will be using my .300 AAC blackout. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 8:13:45 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A 22lr will shoot out to 250 yrds too but has a rainbow trajectory. I assume the 458 does as well. 30-06, 270, 25-06, 308......... all way to big for the standard AR15. Now if there were a 458 necked down to .30 cal..........that may possibly work???? 223 is to small for hunting around here. The 30 RAR looked interesting until I found out it used a proprietary upper. IDK about a 16" barrel though. And yes, I reload. swampie Why, just curious ? Cause Ive heard it before, but nothing to back it up, cept old wives tales. Is there a caliber restriction in place ? Reread first post. "Powerful and deadly" as you say, is very subjective. A dedicated sweet shooting bad ass caliber upper is one thing, but whitetails have nothing to do with it. They get popped around here all the time at night, prefered caliber for poaching in this area is a 22 mag. In case it come up , hogs are not a hard to kill mythical creature either. Some people just can't shoot, within 50 or so yds a hog will die with 22 rimfire. I laugh at people who have to have a big bore or 300 mag or such to hog hunt. Sounds like you're on the right track for your upper already, i'm sure the 6.8 will work great for what you want. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 9:58:26 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I Will catch hell for this and you didn't ask but>>>> If 250 is your absolute max max distance, then 223 will do fine on whitetail. Key is proper hunting bullet and shot placement. There is no magic caliber. A better cartridge is no problem, but 223 will be fine, prefer to keep it under 200 personally. Some people use more bullet for sloppy shot placement. I've helped em track little ass deer shot with 06 and 270 and 308 and numerous others. Neighbors kid has killed a metric ton of whitetails with a single shot 223 at various yardages from 75 to 175. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What is the most powerful, deadliest caliber that will fit in a standard AR15 receiver for white tail deer out to 250 yrds? I'm looking real hard at the 6.8 SPC. According to the reloading manual, the 6.8 is almost identical in ballistics to a .243 win. but using a shorter barrel. Using a 95 grain Barnes bullet I could zero in at 50 yrds and be able to hold dead on out to 250 yrds and only be 2.5" or so low. I would love to find something that will fire a 120-150 grain bullet at around 2800fps from a 16" barrel. Does such a beast exist? thanks, swampie I Will catch hell for this and you didn't ask but>>>> If 250 is your absolute max max distance, then 223 will do fine on whitetail. Key is proper hunting bullet and shot placement. There is no magic caliber. A better cartridge is no problem, but 223 will be fine, prefer to keep it under 200 personally. Some people use more bullet for sloppy shot placement. I've helped em track little ass deer shot with 06 and 270 and 308 and numerous others. Neighbors kid has killed a metric ton of whitetails with a single shot 223 at various yardages from 75 to 175. Agree the 223 works fine. I have shot a couple does with a bolt not semi auto(does have a 22" barrel)used winchester 64 grain) Won't take that combo hunting bucks however just a to limiting in shot selection. I hunt in the woods and shots rarely are past 150 though one spot I hunt does offer the potential to shoot about 250, problem is I don't like anything but archery angle shots with the 223 I don't want to pass up a buck of a lifetime because it requires a hard quartering toward shot and you know thats when you see that buck when you got a 223. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 10:01:42 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your already on the best cartridge for the job. Nothing in an AR15 will push a 120gr 2800 out of a 16in barrel. The 6.8 also has the best selection of available bullets for the job. Both to the reloaders and factory ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What is the most powerful, deadliest caliber that will fit in a standard AR15 receiver for white tail deer out to 250 yrds? I'm looking real hard at the 6.8 SPC. According to the reloading manual, the 6.8 is almost identical in ballistics to a .243 win. but using a shorter barrel. Using a 95 grain Barnes bullet I could zero in at 50 yrds and be able to hold dead on out to 250 yrds and only be 2.5" or so low. I would love to find something that will fire a 120-150 grain bullet at around 2800fps from a 16" barrel. Does such a beast exist? thanks, swampie Your already on the best cartridge for the job. Nothing in an AR15 will push a 120gr 2800 out of a 16in barrel. The 6.8 also has the best selection of available bullets for the job. Both to the reloaders and factory ammo. I doubt the 270 or 7mm08 could do 2800 fps with a 120 out of a 16" barrel! I guess the 30 OSSM could push those velocity's or close to it. Don't know if I would consider it a true AR15 but just a idea. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 10:15:08 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
250 Yards for a Whitetail, boy, I have shot 19 Whitetails in the last 10 years(Yes Legally) and never shot more than 50 yards, where in the heck are you hunting Whitetails that it takes a gun set up for 250 yards? Heck, even in eastern Montana, where I hunt pronghorns, I never shoot more than a hundred yards and I use my .270 for them. This year, for Whitetails, I will be using my .300 AAC blackout. I agree that most people simply don't need to or are not capable of shooting past 200 yards. I also agree that in most locations that distance doesn't limit many shots at all. But I don't think 250 is unreasonable at all. I do almost all my hunting with a crossbow. Only shot two deer with a rifle in the last 8 years. Have always filled all my tags with no shot past 40 yards. Could get those same shots in rifle season and the longest shot of those two I did shoot with the rifle was 110 yards. Still 250 to 300 isn't a unreasonable distance. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 10:22:38 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
What is the most powerful, deadliest caliber that will fit in a standard AR15 receiver for white tail deer out to 250 yrds? I'm looking real hard at the 6.8 SPC. According to the reloading manual, the 6.8 is almost identical in ballistics to a .243 win. but using a shorter barrel. Using a 95 grain Barnes bullet I could zero in at 50 yrds and be able to hold dead on out to 250 yrds and only be 2.5" or so low. I would love to find something that will fire a 120-150 grain bullet at around 2800fps from a 16" barrel. Does such a beast exist? thanks, swampie For a basic ar, no specialty parts. 6.5 grendel and 6.8 spc despite what both sides will say both are fine for whitetails at 250 yards and you won't notice a difference between them. Ammo is comparable in price. Pick the one you want. The 25-45 sharps can probably get you to 250 as well. If you want a wildcat any of them based on the 6.8 or grendel case(or 7.62x39) will get you there. 300 blk and 7.62x39 are good to 200 with the right handload the 7.62x39 might get you to 250 if the rifle will shoot the 308 125 nosler btip. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 10:52:21 AM EDT
[#23]
For a basic 'deer inside 250' rifle in a compact platform with quick follow - up shots 6.8 SPC would be hard to beat. Just like 6.5 it will require barrel, bolt and magazine changes from standard if you're looking to mod an existing rifle. Both are stuck using somewhat-light bullets for caliber - and I'd say 6.8 this is more true than 6.5.
UNLIKE 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 gives up very little in an 18" bbl. It also has greater frontal area (OK - it ain't by much but it is there) and both have 'irrelevant - you either hit or you missed' trajectories inside that range. **Note on 6.5g and 6.8 spc** -they will both do the job- -they both have fans- In 6.8 I would look for an SPCII chamber and stick with 18" of bbl. Don't bother with a brake you won't need it on a hunting rifle. If you end up with a threaded barrel put a thread protector on it. 6.5 fans usually point to superior BC (bullet slips through the pesky atmosphere more efficiently). YEP. No denying it the numbers are right there. However... a real world example... My personal favorite load / rifle combo gives: 6.8 SPCII 95gr TTSX in 18" bbl @ 2800 FPS Zero @ 200, about 2.1" high at 100 about 3.6" low at 250. Deer killing energy through the whole range though I would not try to go for a much longer shot. vs. 6.5 Grendel 100gr TTSX 18" bbl @ 2600 FPS Zero @ 200, 2.7" high at 100, 4.0" low at 250. Energy is about the same at 250 yards as the 6.8 SPC. **CAVEAT** I am giving credit here for the absolute highest 6.5g velocity @ that weight and bbl length I have ever seen anywhere. This may well be a 'factory only powder' load!!! YMMV and DO NOT attempt to duplicate a load based on velocity alone - **OK PSA OVER** Beyond 250 the Grendel 'catches up' -- NO QUESTION about it in the energy department. However - with these bullets in these energy ranges NEITHER should be used on deer sized game beyond 250. INSIDE 250 the 6.8 SPCII in this example has the advantage. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 2:00:10 PM EDT
[#24]
lurkingrodent has provided an excellent write up.
I concur that inside of 250 yards both 6.5 and 6.8 will do the job in deer sized game. I went with 6.8 because I found an upper on a too good to pass up deal. I also plan to build/buy a 6.5 upper at some point. My non-AR choice for hunting deer is the venerable 6.5x55 Swede, so I clearly don't have a bias against 6.5 projectiles. If I was planning to shoot an animal past 250 yards, I would personally use a magnum cartridge like 7mm Rem Magnum. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 2:27:12 PM EDT
[#25]
6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel. They will both get you past the 250yds with a short barrel, even more so for the Grendel. No need for a barrel longer than 16". Inside that 250 it's going to be unnoticible between them.
I have 2 very lightweigt 16" 6.5 Grendels for hunting. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 2:33:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agree the 223 works fine. I have shot a couple does with a bolt not semi auto(does have a 22" barrel)used winchester 64 grain) Won't take that combo hunting bucks however just a to limiting in shot selection. I hunt in the woods and shots rarely are past 150 though one spot I hunt does offer the potential to shoot about 250, problem is I don't like anything but archery angle shots with the 223 I don't want to pass up a buck of a lifetime because it requires a hard quartering toward shot and you know thats when you see that buck when you got a 223. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What is the most powerful, deadliest caliber that will fit in a standard AR15 receiver for white tail deer out to 250 yrds? I'm looking real hard at the 6.8 SPC. According to the reloading manual, the 6.8 is almost identical in ballistics to a .243 win. but using a shorter barrel. Using a 95 grain Barnes bullet I could zero in at 50 yrds and be able to hold dead on out to 250 yrds and only be 2.5" or so low. I would love to find something that will fire a 120-150 grain bullet at around 2800fps from a 16" barrel. Does such a beast exist? thanks, swampie I Will catch hell for this and you didn't ask but>>>> If 250 is your absolute max max distance, then 223 will do fine on whitetail. Key is proper hunting bullet and shot placement. There is no magic caliber. A better cartridge is no problem, but 223 will be fine, prefer to keep it under 200 personally. Some people use more bullet for sloppy shot placement. I've helped em track little ass deer shot with 06 and 270 and 308 and numerous others. Neighbors kid has killed a metric ton of whitetails with a single shot 223 at various yardages from 75 to 175. Agree the 223 works fine. I have shot a couple does with a bolt not semi auto(does have a 22" barrel)used winchester 64 grain) Won't take that combo hunting bucks however just a to limiting in shot selection. I hunt in the woods and shots rarely are past 150 though one spot I hunt does offer the potential to shoot about 250, problem is I don't like anything but archery angle shots with the 223 I don't want to pass up a buck of a lifetime because it requires a hard quartering toward shot and you know thats when you see that buck when you got a 223. Understand why you feel that way. Since this is about a deer rifle, I would like to point out the obvious. Practice is always importiant, such as in your stand/blind or whatever. On deer type targets during the off season. A CNS hit means no tracking, but I understand the reluctance, tough shots. A heart shot relies on hydraulics to quit working, even a good one can take up to 6-9 seconds to have complete hemorrhage. A deer can go a long ways in that amount of time. Bullet selection is critical, you need proper expansion and a hole to leave a blood trail, unless in open country. I prefer Barnes tsx, but there are many good ones out there. On the other hand I hog hunt with cheap fmj in 556. One thru the vitals is never more than 25-45 yards away in my experience. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 3:25:16 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For a basic 'deer inside 250' rifle in a compact platform with quick follow - up shots 6.8 SPC would be hard to beat. Just like 6.5 it will require barrel, bolt and magazine changes from standard if you're looking to mod an existing rifle. Both are stuck using somewhat-light bullets for caliber - and I'd say 6.8 this is more true than 6.5. UNLIKE 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 gives up very little in an 18" bbl. It also has greater frontal area (OK - it ain't by much but it is there) and both have 'irrelevant - you either hit or you missed' trajectories inside that range. **Note on 6.5g and 6.8 spc** -they will both do the job- -they both have fans- In 6.8 I would look for an SPCII chamber and stick with 18" of bbl. Don't bother with a brake you won't need it on a hunting rifle. If you end up with a threaded barrel put a thread protector on it. 6.5 fans usually point to superior BC (bullet slips through the pesky atmosphere more efficiently). YEP. No denying it the numbers are right there. However... a real world example... My personal favorite load / rifle combo gives: 6.8 SPCII 95gr TTSX in 18" bbl @ 2800 FPS Zero @ 200, about 2.1" high at 100 about 3.6" low at 250. Deer killing energy through the whole range though I would not try to go for a much longer shot. vs. 6.5 Grendel 100gr TTSX 18" bbl @ 2600 FPS Zero @ 200, 2.7" high at 100, 4.0" low at 250. Energy is about the same at 250 yards as the 6.8 SPC. Beyond 250 the Grendel 'catches up' -- NO QUESTION about it in the energy department. However - with these bullets in these energy ranges NEITHER should be used on deer sized game beyond 250. INSIDE 250 the 6.8 SPCII in this example has the advantage. I'm curious where you got those velocity numbers? I'm just getting started on my Grendel build but the mv for the 100gr bullet seems low for an 18" barrel. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 3:46:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Understand why you feel that way. Since this is about a deer rifle, I would like to point out the obvious. Practice is always importiant, such as in your stand/blind or whatever. On deer type targets during the off season. A CNS hit means no tracking, but I understand the reluctance, tough shots. A heart shot relies on hydraulics to quit working, even a good one can take up to 6-9 seconds to have complete hemorrhage. A deer can go a long ways in that amount of time. Bullet selection is critical, you need proper expansion and a hole to leave a blood trail, unless in open country. I prefer Barnes tsx, but there are many good ones out there. On the other hand I hog hunt with cheap fmj in 556. One thru the vitals is never more than 25-45 yards away in my experience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What is the most powerful, deadliest caliber that will fit in a standard AR15 receiver for white tail deer out to 250 yrds? I'm looking real hard at the 6.8 SPC. According to the reloading manual, the 6.8 is almost identical in ballistics to a .243 win. but using a shorter barrel. Using a 95 grain Barnes bullet I could zero in at 50 yrds and be able to hold dead on out to 250 yrds and only be 2.5" or so low. I would love to find something that will fire a 120-150 grain bullet at around 2800fps from a 16" barrel. Does such a beast exist? thanks, swampie I Will catch hell for this and you didn't ask but>>>> If 250 is your absolute max max distance, then 223 will do fine on whitetail. Key is proper hunting bullet and shot placement. There is no magic caliber. A better cartridge is no problem, but 223 will be fine, prefer to keep it under 200 personally. Some people use more bullet for sloppy shot placement. I've helped em track little ass deer shot with 06 and 270 and 308 and numerous others. Neighbors kid has killed a metric ton of whitetails with a single shot 223 at various yardages from 75 to 175. Agree the 223 works fine. I have shot a couple does with a bolt not semi auto(does have a 22" barrel)used winchester 64 grain) Won't take that combo hunting bucks however just a to limiting in shot selection. I hunt in the woods and shots rarely are past 150 though one spot I hunt does offer the potential to shoot about 250, problem is I don't like anything but archery angle shots with the 223 I don't want to pass up a buck of a lifetime because it requires a hard quartering toward shot and you know thats when you see that buck when you got a 223. Understand why you feel that way. Since this is about a deer rifle, I would like to point out the obvious. Practice is always importiant, such as in your stand/blind or whatever. On deer type targets during the off season. A CNS hit means no tracking, but I understand the reluctance, tough shots. A heart shot relies on hydraulics to quit working, even a good one can take up to 6-9 seconds to have complete hemorrhage. A deer can go a long ways in that amount of time. Bullet selection is critical, you need proper expansion and a hole to leave a blood trail, unless in open country. I prefer Barnes tsx, but there are many good ones out there. On the other hand I hog hunt with cheap fmj in 556. One thru the vitals is never more than 25-45 yards away in my experience. Read Nathan Foster's research on all copper/gliding metal bullets. www.ballisticstudies.com I tend to agree with him. He basically states that the all copper bullets are decent when using a cartridge that is a little light for the intended game because of their ability to penetrate but they also tend to leave very narrow wounds compaired to something like a hornady sst. Ideally you have a cartridge that can deliver enough penetration with a more frangible bullet. Its a interesting read I don't always agree with him but he does have a ton of experience in the field I would encourage anyone who is considering the TSX/gmx etc to read it. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 3:59:49 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For a basic 'deer inside 250' rifle in a compact platform with quick follow - up shots 6.8 SPC would be hard to beat. Just like 6.5 it will require barrel, bolt and magazine changes from standard if you're looking to mod an existing rifle. Both are stuck using somewhat-light bullets for caliber - and I'd say 6.8 this is more true than 6.5. UNLIKE 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 gives up very little in an 18" bbl. It also has greater frontal area (OK - it ain't by much but it is there) and both have 'irrelevant - you either hit or you missed' trajectories inside that range. **Note on 6.5g and 6.8 spc** -they will both do the job- -they both have fans- In 6.8 I would look for an SPCII chamber and stick with 18" of bbl. Don't bother with a brake you won't need it on a hunting rifle. If you end up with a threaded barrel put a thread protector on it. 6.5 fans usually point to superior BC (bullet slips through the pesky atmosphere more efficiently). YEP. No denying it the numbers are right there. However... a real world example... My personal favorite load / rifle combo gives: 6.8 SPCII 95gr TTSX in 18" bbl @ 2800 FPS Zero @ 200, about 2.1" high at 100 about 3.6" low at 250. Deer killing energy through the whole range though I would not try to go for a much longer shot. vs. 6.5 Grendel 100gr TTSX 18" bbl @ 2600 FPS Zero @ 200, 2.7" high at 100, 4.0" low at 250. Energy is about the same at 250 yards as the 6.8 SPC. Beyond 250 the Grendel 'catches up' -- NO QUESTION about it in the energy department. However - with these bullets in these energy ranges NEITHER should be used on deer sized game beyond 250. INSIDE 250 the 6.8 SPCII in this example has the advantage. I tend to agree with the bolded statement. I think you could stretch that to maybe 300 to 350 but after that you are really starting to push the envelope. Have people killed with them well past that range yes. Doesn't make it wise. I have seen videos of a girl popping a elk with a 243 at 500+ yards it worked that time but I don't believe it would be wise to do so. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 4:27:19 PM EDT
[#30]
Most powerful for ranges 250 yards or less?
.450, .458, or .50 Beowulf. Even the 6.x fans can't argue much against that. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 4:30:53 PM EDT
[#31]
I cant use a 223 because of caliber restrictions. Must be .24 or above.
My normal shooting ranges will be under 75 yards, but if I hunt the fields........a 250 yrd shot is possible and realistic. My farthest shot made on a deer was very close 250 yrds. I have read the debates between the 6.5 and the 6.8. I believe for my intended purpose, at my maximum grassy field range, the 6.8 with a Barnes bullet is the best I know of. I thought I read that the Grendel needed a longer barrel to really shine. That's one reason I'm leaning towards the 6.8. I was just hoping to throw a heavier bullet at near the same velocity from a 16" barrel. I have witnessed a 6.8 ARP barrel shoot 95 grain Barnes handloads at over 2900 fps from a 16" barrel. No matter what caliber I choose, I will be using Barnes bullets and loading my own. swampie |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 4:42:19 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I cant use a 223 because of caliber restrictions. Must be .24 or above. My normal shooting ranges will be under 75 yards, but if I hunt the fields........a 250 yrd shot is possible and realistic. My farthest shot made on a deer was very close 250 yrds. I have read the debates between the 6.5 and the 6.8. I believe for my intended purpose, at my maximum grassy field range, the 6.8 with a Barnes bullet is the best I know of. I thought I read that the Grendel needed a longer barrel to really shine. That's one reason I'm leaning towards the 6.8. I was just hoping to throw a heavier bullet at near the same velocity from a 16" barrel. I have witnessed a 6.8 ARP barrel shoot 95 grain Barnes handloads at over 2900 fps from a 16" barrel. No matter what caliber I choose, I will be using Barnes bullets and loading my own. swampie Swampie read the following before deciding on the tsx bullets. Read Nathan Foster's research on all copper/gliding metal bullets. www.ballisticstudies.com I tend to agree with him. He basically states that the all copper bullets are decent when using a cartridge that is a little light for the intended game because of their ability to penetrate but they also tend to leave very narrow wounds compaired to something like a hornady sst. Ideally you have a cartridge that can deliver enough penetration with a more frangible bullet. Its a interesting read I don't always agree with him but he does have a ton of experience in the field I would encourage anyone who is considering the TSX/gmx etc to read it. I think with the 6.8 you might be better of with a heavier softer bullet. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 4:44:04 PM EDT
[#33]
6.8 is all I use for deer now. I have an 18" and 12.5" and my 9 year has a 16".
I've taken deer out to 250 yds. and have mine pbr zeroed to 250 also. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 4:45:24 PM EDT
[#34]
With 6.5 Grendel I am going with the absolute highest resource I could find. I don't care to publish it or the recipe - but it was there. I presume it was a 'factory - you can't get that powder' load.
I went back and added the usual "PSA" stuff to the post. Sadly I can NOT verify that 2600 velocity but I have seen 2500 published in multiple places. It is not impossible that a particularly tight chamber / throat / a few tenths overweight-charge etc combination yielded it. Regarding the bullet performance from solids that 'petal' - I like bringing home tasty meat. Just how it is... The more meat from 80-100lb hogs I can tote off the better my day goes. I also don't like picking bits out of my carnitas. If you head over to that 6.8 forum place (MEAT WARNING) you'll see plenty of pics of TSX / TTSX vs (insert critter here). The 100AB now has a following there, too IIRC. Explosive? No. Devastating? Not really (I don't want to be shot with it but you know what I mean). Defeated by shoulder bones / ribs? Nope. Punched a hole, sliced up vitals and delivered sufficient energy to kill the beast? YEP. Whichever way you go OP - good hunting and EITHER of these will serve you well if you take ethical shots. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 8:21:44 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most powerful for ranges 250 yards or less? .450, .458, or .50 Beowulf. Even the 6.x fans can't argue much against that. You might want to look over a ballistics program. If you take two 16" barreled AR15s, one in 6.5 Grendel, and one in .458 SOCOM, or any of the big bores, you will learn a very quick lesson in retained energy. You would think a 300gr Barnes TTSX would have substantially more energy than a little 6.5mm projectile, right? Not even at 100yds. 16" AR15 .458 SOCOM, 300gr Barnes TTSX, BC .236, 1700fps mv 100yds 1432fps 1365 ft-lbs 16" AR15 6.5 Grendel, 123gr AMAX, 2450fps mv 100yds 2285fps 1426 ft-lbs If you wanted to match the energy of a 16" 458 SOCOM at 200yds with 6.5 Grendel, you would have to use a 10.5" Grendel instead. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 8:38:06 PM EDT
[#36]
Well - in the case of 458 SOCOM you also have the frontal area of a small train working for you. I don't drink ALL of Taylor's Kewl_Ade but meplat is still a thing.
So - is it as much? No. Is it more than a 44mag (hunting pistol bbl) at the muzzle? Yeah. Buffalo Bore makes some stuff in that range... |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 8:50:22 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Read Nathan Foster's research on all copper/gliding metal bullets. www.ballisticstudies.com I tend to agree with him. He basically states that the all copper bullets are decent when using a cartridge that is a little light for the intended game because of their ability to penetrate but they also tend to leave very narrow wounds compaired to something like a hornady sst. Ideally you have a cartridge that can deliver enough penetration with a more frangible bullet. Its a interesting read I don't always agree with him but he does have a ton of experience in the field I would encourage anyone who is considering the TSX/gmx etc to read it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What is the most powerful, deadliest caliber that will fit in a standard AR15 receiver for white tail deer out to 250 yrds? I'm looking real hard at the 6.8 SPC. According to the reloading manual, the 6.8 is almost identical in ballistics to a .243 win. but using a shorter barrel. Using a 95 grain Barnes bullet I could zero in at 50 yrds and be able to hold dead on out to 250 yrds and only be 2.5" or so low. I would love to find something that will fire a 120-150 grain bullet at around 2800fps from a 16" barrel. Does such a beast exist? thanks, swampie I Will catch hell for this and you didn't ask but>>>> If 250 is your absolute max max distance, then 223 will do fine on whitetail. Key is proper hunting bullet and shot placement. There is no magic caliber. A better cartridge is no problem, but 223 will be fine, prefer to keep it under 200 personally. Some people use more bullet for sloppy shot placement. I've helped em track little ass deer shot with 06 and 270 and 308 and numerous others. Neighbors kid has killed a metric ton of whitetails with a single shot 223 at various yardages from 75 to 175. Agree the 223 works fine. I have shot a couple does with a bolt not semi auto(does have a 22" barrel)used winchester 64 grain) Won't take that combo hunting bucks however just a to limiting in shot selection. I hunt in the woods and shots rarely are past 150 though one spot I hunt does offer the potential to shoot about 250, problem is I don't like anything but archery angle shots with the 223 I don't want to pass up a buck of a lifetime because it requires a hard quartering toward shot and you know thats when you see that buck when you got a 223. Understand why you feel that way. Since this is about a deer rifle, I would like to point out the obvious. Practice is always importiant, such as in your stand/blind or whatever. On deer type targets during the off season. A CNS hit means no tracking, but I understand the reluctance, tough shots. A heart shot relies on hydraulics to quit working, even a good one can take up to 6-9 seconds to have complete hemorrhage. A deer can go a long ways in that amount of time. Bullet selection is critical, you need proper expansion and a hole to leave a blood trail, unless in open country. I prefer Barnes tsx, but there are many good ones out there. On the other hand I hog hunt with cheap fmj in 556. One thru the vitals is never more than 25-45 yards away in my experience. Read Nathan Foster's research on all copper/gliding metal bullets. www.ballisticstudies.com I tend to agree with him. He basically states that the all copper bullets are decent when using a cartridge that is a little light for the intended game because of their ability to penetrate but they also tend to leave very narrow wounds compaired to something like a hornady sst. Ideally you have a cartridge that can deliver enough penetration with a more frangible bullet. Its a interesting read I don't always agree with him but he does have a ton of experience in the field I would encourage anyone who is considering the TSX/gmx etc to read it. Thanks, I will. In the early Barnes days there were reports of them acting as fmj, in addition some rifles flat didnt like em accuracy wise. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 9:01:02 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most powerful for ranges 250 yards or less? .450, .458, or .50 Beowulf. Even the 6.x fans can't argue much against that. Sorry but that is so easy to argue even a cave man can do it..Geico |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 9:07:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Guys with the 6.5 Grendel and 120gr Barnes TSX call it their "6.5 Watch em drop" on hogs.
123gr SST is a proven killer on hogs over and over, and is one of the most economical routes for hog eradication without having to mess with premium solids. At least 2/3 of the animals, whether they be deer, hogs, elk, coyotes, caribou, mule deer, etc. will not take another step, which is pretty common with most center-fire rifle cartridges within 250yds with a vital zone shot. The advantage is that you can do it with a little AR15, instead of a bolt gun with more recoil and limited follow-up shot capability. This is why my .270 Winchester sits on the shelf collecting dust now. It makes a great antelope rifle, but so does a carbine 6.5 Grendel with much less barrel length, easier maneuverability, way less recoil, and easier to feed, with only .2 mils of wind drift difference at 400-500yds. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 9:09:51 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry but that is so easy to argue even a cave man can do it..Geico Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Most powerful for ranges 250 yards or less? .450, .458, or .50 Beowulf. Even the 6.x fans can't argue much against that. Sorry but that is so easy to argue even a cave man can do it..Geico In which direction is it easy to argue in? Look at my post above about retained energy comparison between them. It isn't what people think. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 9:27:08 PM EDT
[#41]
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In which direction is it easy to argue in? Look at my post above about retained energy comparison between them. It isn't what people think. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Most powerful for ranges 250 yards or less? .450, .458, or .50 Beowulf. Even the 6.x fans can't argue much against that. Sorry but that is so easy to argue even a cave man can do it..Geico In which direction is it easy to argue in? Look at my post above about retained energy comparison between them. It isn't what people think. As in I agree with what you said.
As much of a big bore nut as I used to be, and can still be at times, distance hurts em, as a general rule. We are living in great times, when bullet manufacturers are doing some great things, and some of the old school way of thinking needs to be dispelled. Just cause your daddy told ya so , don't make it so. I would have never though 20 years ago that I would be running 95gr 9mm bullet in my carry pistol, but I do. Its cnc machined solid copper and gets about 1550mv, and is accurate. 
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Posted: 4/23/2016 9:31:41 PM EDT
[#42]
The OP may be interested in actual testing of the effectiveness of the 6.8 over the 6.5 in actual testing.
Roberts Report For me this far outweighed anything any forum jockey said when I made my decision. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 9:32:39 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As in I agree with what you said.
As much of a big bore nut as I used to be, and can still be at times, distance hurts em, as a general rule. We are living in great times, when bullet manufacturers are doing some great things, and some of the old school way of thinking needs to be dispelled. Just cause your daddy told ya so , don't make it so. I would have never though 20 years ago that I would be running 95gr 9mm bullet in my carry pistol, but I do. Its cnc machined solid copper and gets about 1550mv, and is accurate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Most powerful for ranges 250 yards or less? .450, .458, or .50 Beowulf. Even the 6.x fans can't argue much against that. Sorry but that is so easy to argue even a cave man can do it..Geico In which direction is it easy to argue in? Look at my post above about retained energy comparison between them. It isn't what people think. As in I agree with what you said.
As much of a big bore nut as I used to be, and can still be at times, distance hurts em, as a general rule. We are living in great times, when bullet manufacturers are doing some great things, and some of the old school way of thinking needs to be dispelled. Just cause your daddy told ya so , don't make it so. I would have never though 20 years ago that I would be running 95gr 9mm bullet in my carry pistol, but I do. Its cnc machined solid copper and gets about 1550mv, and is accurate. Load that bad boy in the 9x25 Dillon conversion and you will get 2000fps, but muzzle flash will blind you in the dark. Half of the incidents I have been involved in where drawing from concealment or shooting in the home were legally justified...were at night with limited visibility. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 9:36:05 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Load that bad boy in the 9x25 Dillon conversion and you will get 2000fps, but muzzle flash will blind you in the dark. Half of the incidents I have been involved in where drawing from concealment or shooting in the home were legally justified...were at night with limited visibility. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Most powerful for ranges 250 yards or less? .450, .458, or .50 Beowulf. Even the 6.x fans can't argue much against that. Sorry but that is so easy to argue even a cave man can do it..Geico In which direction is it easy to argue in? Look at my post above about retained energy comparison between them. It isn't what people think. As in I agree with what you said.
As much of a big bore nut as I used to be, and can still be at times, distance hurts em, as a general rule. We are living in great times, when bullet manufacturers are doing some great things, and some of the old school way of thinking needs to be dispelled. Just cause your daddy told ya so , don't make it so. I would have never though 20 years ago that I would be running 95gr 9mm bullet in my carry pistol, but I do. Its cnc machined solid copper and gets about 1550mv, and is accurate. Load that bad boy in the 9x25 Dillon conversion and you will get 2000fps, but muzzle flash will blind you in the dark. Half of the incidents I have been involved in where drawing from concealment or shooting in the home were legally justified...were at night with limited visibility. Wait for flash comes to mind 
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Posted: 4/23/2016 9:40:53 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The OP may be interested in actual testing of the effectiveness of the 6.8 over the 6.5 in actual testing. Roberts Report For me this far outweighed anything any forum jockey said when I made my decision. The 2008 DTIC submission by the Naval Reserve Dentist who tried to pass off varmint projectiles as OTMs? They burned a lot of bridges with that stunt. That was a historical first for the guys they tried to pull the wool over on, and it didn't turn out well. Be very careful when you see someone list the title "Dr." next to their name when trying to add credibility where none should exist in the realm of firearms and ballistics, they often are either a Chiropractor, or a Dentist in this case. When they combine such a title with military service and branch of service without spelling out what it is exactly that they do, it's easy to let people's imaginations run with the ball. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Notice one of these is a Hornady V-MAX, and all the others are Sierra BTHPs. 
Guess which one violently expanded in gel, exceeding the wound cavity profiles of all the others? And people lap this up not knowing the behind-the-scenes fraud that took place. What a joke. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 9:44:19 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The OP may be interested in actual testing of the effectiveness of the 6.8 over the 6.5 in actual testing. Roberts Report For me this far outweighed anything any forum jockey said when I made my decision. Well, this jockey says he nailed it on page 3 of that report. #1 says Training... and more training. Which I have already said, practice its posted above. Its the shooter sending the right bullet to the right spot on the target !!always and forever. Thank you fellow forum jockey. Edit: To add that reading a research paper about 6.8 vs 6.5 or anything else aint got squat to do with a 250 max yard deer rifle. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 10:05:48 PM EDT
[#47]
I find it interesting how much attachment people have to 'bigger bore'. I can tell you it's a proven thought process and people are hesitant to change. It's understandable - many people (including my own family -though not my generation) have absolutely relied upon these to bring dinner home. The continued existence of 30-30 and 45-70 illustrate this well.
The 30-30 has always been considered a good close-in brush rifle but restricted to under 200 yards. For half that distance 6.8 carries more energy. The 6.5 - despite a terrible initial discrepancy in energy catches up at 200 yards and from there out has the energy advantage hands down. I'm still torn between 6.5 Creedmoor and 7mm-08 for my next build and I'm a die-hard 7mm guy. Those long little bullets really are that good. Berger's 168VLD is nothing to sneeze at, though... |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 10:16:01 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I find it interesting how much attachment people have to 'bigger bore'. I can tell you it's a proven thought process and people are hesitant to change. It's understandable - many people (including my own family -though not my generation) have absolutely relied upon these to bring dinner home. The continued existence of 30-30 and 45-70 illustrate this well. The 30-30 has always been considered a good close-in brush rifle but restricted to under 200 yards. For half that distance 6.8 carries more energy. The 6.5 - despite a terrible initial discrepancy in energy catches up at 200 yards and from there out has the energy advantage hands down. I'm still torn between 6.5 Creedmoor and 7mm-08 for my next build and I'm a die-hard 7mm guy. Those long little bullets really are that good. Berger's 168VLD is nothing to sneeze at, though... Regarding 7-08 vs 6.5C. I have a thread under precision semi about this. I had narrowed my choices down to those 2, for a long range playtoy, I had eliminated 243 and 308. After all the ballistics calculators, I looked at ammo avaliability. In my area I can get 4 different 6.5C loads off the shelf at the lgs, but no 7-08. When I went online and started looking at precision ammo that did it,7-08 was 6-12$ a box more for precision ammo. If that matters to you, do some lookin, ymmv. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 10:19:49 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You might want to look over a ballistics program. If you take two 16" barreled AR15s, one in 6.5 Grendel, and one in .458 SOCOM, or any of the big bores, you will learn a very quick lesson in retained energy. You would think a 300gr Barnes TTSX would have substantially more energy than a little 6.5mm projectile, right? Not even at 100yds. 16" AR15 .458 SOCOM, 300gr Barnes TTSX, BC .236, 1700fps mv 100yds 1432fps 1365 ft-lbs 16" AR15 6.5 Grendel, 123gr AMAX, 2450fps mv 100yds 2285fps 1426 ft-lbs If you wanted to match the energy of a 16" 458 SOCOM at 200yds with 6.5 Grendel, you would have to use a 10.5" Grendel instead. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Most powerful for ranges 250 yards or less? .450, .458, or .50 Beowulf. Even the 6.x fans can't argue much against that. You might want to look over a ballistics program. If you take two 16" barreled AR15s, one in 6.5 Grendel, and one in .458 SOCOM, or any of the big bores, you will learn a very quick lesson in retained energy. You would think a 300gr Barnes TTSX would have substantially more energy than a little 6.5mm projectile, right? Not even at 100yds. 16" AR15 .458 SOCOM, 300gr Barnes TTSX, BC .236, 1700fps mv 100yds 1432fps 1365 ft-lbs 16" AR15 6.5 Grendel, 123gr AMAX, 2450fps mv 100yds 2285fps 1426 ft-lbs If you wanted to match the energy of a 16" 458 SOCOM at 200yds with 6.5 Grendel, you would have to use a 10.5" Grendel instead. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 10:32:15 PM EDT
[#50]
The Thumpers are thumpers on your shoulder and pocketbook, with limited magazine capacity (not an issue in States that limit you to 4 or 5 rounds).
I was surprised when I ran the numbers as well. Even if I was facing dangerous game, I personally would prefer 6.5 Grendel, looking at the African Continent track record of 6.5x54 Mannlicher (it's ballistic equivalent when looking at mv/projo weight). As gun guys, we get wrapped around the axle about minute differences in diameters, speeds, when in reality from the macro view looking down, there are humans with fire sticks blasting animals with copper and lead missiles going somewhere over 2x the speed of sound through the animal with most bottleneck cartridges. With sufficient bullet material and construction at those speeds, a vital zone shot should anchor the animal quickly with any of them as long as the projectile is within expansion threshold. The next parameters to look at are recoil, working pressure, versatility, compactness, rifle weight, and things of that nature. Which cartridge gives me the most out of those other options? Low recoil? Least working pressure for increased throat/barrel life and reduced recoil and muzzle blast. Widest range of projectiles for whatever my needs are, whether they be varmints, small game, medium game, large game, or target shooting? Rifle weight? Compactness? With higher BC projectiles available, I can match the performance of other cartridges with less barrel length, which also opens up more suppressed options in smaller profile. When you look at all of those, 6.5mm is the one to beat. |
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