Has anyone tried these on a whitetail?  If so how was the performance compared to other 223 bullets you have used.

I'm definitely not a fan of the 223 for deer hunting. But if you hunt with it, make sure you use the heaviest softpoint you can get with a very heavy jacket to control expansion.
I'd go heavier than 55 gr and I'd avoid anything that says tactical. Use a bullet designed for hunting BIG GAME and not varmints.

ditto. good advice. better yet, use a larger caliber.

I understand the warnings given but, I have been hunting deer for almost 20 years and am very aware of the limits of the rounds I use (mostly 30-06 or 280) but my younger bro wants to go hunting again and I was going to use my AR and let him use the 06.  The bullet in the round I asked about has the core bonded to the jacket to penetrate barriers better.  So in my police mind (I am also a LE firearms instructor) it should work well.  I was just looking for real world info is all.  Thanks guys.

I have shot a deer w/ 55gr Trophy Bonded same round.  It worked good.  I saw a 200lb sow wild hog dropped with one shot at 100yards w/ same round.  It will work, biggest problem is very small blood trail if it does run very far.  If it was a good hit - will be piled up dead somewhere- but might be hard to find.
Better yet 62 gr Barnes TSX's!
RRA15

It's not too hard to drop a deer in it's tracks with a 22 LR but it's not recommended.
As far as a "bonded" bullet core to jacket being used for penetration being good on deer, that's a conclusion that may not be true. A full metal jacket can have some expansion and still not be as effective as a bullet designed for large game.
The only real way to know is to contact Federal and ask them what they'd recommend for deer hunting in the 223 flavor. They may not recommend your load and then again they may.
Internet contact site is:

http://www.federalpremium.com/general/our_company/contact_us.aspx

Years ago I'd take bullets and dissect them with a hack saw or high speed slit saw. I did bullets like Nosler Partitions, Sierra Match Kings, etc. I learned a lot about bullets and the loads I'd use for specific purposes. Most of the times you could count on what the bullet manufacturers said about their bullets.
Anyway, most of the cartridge companies use to give really good response from their technical experts when a customer asked a question. Don't know about now but it wouldn't hurt to try.

ETA - Just thought about this. Tell them you are a firearms instructor too. They will certainly give you help. Years ago at a trade show Federal gave me a lot of material for teaching handgun classes just because I asked them questions. They sent all types of targets, dissected ammo for demonstration purposes, etc. to me.
Hope you and your brother both have a great time deer hunting this year!

You should check out some of the many, many threads here on this subject in which it has been well established that modern .223 loads designed specifically for hunting medium-large game are perfectly viable choices, provided you don't attempt to exceed the capabilities of the round in terms of distance and such (which is true of any other round as well).  The "you could use a .22LR too" argument no longer holds any water.


Not a bad recommendation.  I don't know about Federal, but I can tell you that Barnes explicitely recommends their .223 TSX bullets in weights of 53 gr. and above for deer.

Look, the question is about using the PROPER ammo.
You CAN kill a deer with a 17 HMR or a 22. That's not the point.
The point is DROPPING the deer ASAP and not wounding it where it runs off and dies.
If someone wants to claim they can hit a deer dead center between the eyes at 1000 yds with their AR, on every shot, I don't care.
I'm just not going to be around them when they deer hunt.
And I WON'T let them hunt my place EVER.
Every hunter should want to put the deer down where it stands when they shoot.
If they don't use the proper ammo or caliber, the mistake is on them.
The OP can find out by calling the manufacturer.
Then he will know for sure.

As with all these theads...it's all about shot placement.  I don't normally hunt with my 223, but if i do I use a heavy, well constructed bullet.  I shot my first several deer when I was a kid with my grandfather's Remington .222 using 50gr SPs.  They didn't scoff at it :)   As always, limit your shots to ranges that you are comfortable with, and that you can make with the bullet choice / caliber that you go with.

It's a shame you didn't take the time to read AND understand my post...and take my advice about reading the many existing threads on this topic...before getting your panties in a twist and going off on a pointless, incoherent rant that had very little to do with anything I said.  You could have saved yourself from looking like such a knee-jerk reactionary fool.

Gee, thank you for pointing that out.
Maybe I should have used the old "you can kill a deer with an ice pick" argument because it applies better?

Or, if you'd like to appear less foolish, simply do as I suggested.  Take the time to make sure you understand what you're responding to before going off half-cocked.

I take it you've never seen a deer shot with a 223 and then tracked it for several hours to still lose it? I mean a good shoulder hit with a good bullet.
It was easy to see that the shoulder was shattered by the way the deer took off AFTER it got up from being knocked to the ground.
A heavier bullet, a larger caliber, would have gone out the other side and not shattered on the hard bone of the deer.
No, I'm not a fan of the 223. When I shoot something, I want it down. And sometimes it takes a bigger caliber.
I don't want to see someone lose a trophy they really want because they are carrying too light a gun and didn't get that perfect shot it would have taken.
I've been around long enough to know that those German Shepherd size trophy deer some people shoot in Texas aren't the same as a 250 lb Montana whitetail and that it takes bit more to drop one than a fair hit with a 223.
If you want to hunt with your 223, all the more power to you.
The whole point of my "foolish" discourse is to anchor the deer where it stands when you shoot it. A 223 in ANY TYPE of bullet, is not necessarily the best choice with the highest probabilty of doing that with a less than perfect shot.
But sometimes you use the tools that you have. Then you use the best material you can get with those tools.
That's the point, son.
If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

OK.  It's pretty clear that you're not paying attening and just insist on ranting....thus rendering this is a complete waste of time.  I'm done.

Oh, so insuring that someone has the knowledge to insure they kill the game they are hunting quickly and with the least amount of trouble is "ranting"?

Don't know how much it applies to deer hunting,  but I just received a test data sheet from a LEO agency that tested that ammo.

In the FBI heavy clothing test it penetrated 14.75", expanded to .43" and retained 100% of it's weight.

The 62 gr Federal Tactical Bonded penetrated about 2" more and had identical expansion with 97% weight retention.


Just going by those tests I'd take the 62 gr if it was available, but the 55 should probably do alright.

I wonder how it will do if it hits bone? Deer bone is awful damn hard.
I've dulled the same knifes faster boning a deer than I did a hog.
I've also seen a  150 gr 30 cal Nosler break up on the shoulder, portion of it going in and tearing up the spine for an instant kill. Part of the bullet actually exited on the other side without breaking through the rib cage. It went up under the skin, around the body, till it exited.
Like I've said, deer bone is awful hard and you can't exclude not hitting it when you shoot a deer.

ETA Just so some might understand, ballistic gel or any pure testing agent such as newspapers, clothing,  just gives penetration ability in that medium, not the real world. The real world obviously contains bones, muscle, fat, etc in all kinds of combinations.
Only those who developed and marketed the bullet can tell you what it was designed for.
And sometimes you can't trust that if their ammo is very specialized.

Valid points,

But remember the Federal tactical bonded line was designed to perform well in all the FBI tests.  Which include 2 layers of sheet metal and windshield glass.  I haven't seen much that is harder on bullets than windshield glass.

I just bought a box of these for this years hunt. They only had 55 gr so hopefully they will suffice. Our deer are generally not too big around here.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of the 223 for deer hunting, just like the 30 Carbine.
But I sent a message to the Federal Cartridge Company on the site I posted above to see what their three tops bullets in 223 flavor they would recommend for whitetail hunting.
As soon as they respond, I'll post their answer.
But I'd still like to see some cross sectional cuts on the jackets/cores of the bullets to see how they are constructed.

45gr. JHP




62 Gr. JHP


Same Result: Dead deer with no tracking involved.

Take your time, make a good shot.

I've had similar results. I've used remington core-loct 55gr in my Bushy M4 a couple times here in south georgia. The one doe I shot with it took a lung/heart shot and was down within 50 meters. I don't know about bonded federal, but I can definitely tell the core-loct is good to go. You will never have to track a deer very far as long as you make a shot that gets that bright blood out on the ground.

I've taken two doe in the last two years.  One with a .223 55gr SP and one with a 12ga slug.  One ran away and one dropped right there.  I'll let you guys figure out which was which, but I will say that shot placement is paramount.

Got this via email this morning:

From:    
"Prodserv" <[email protected]>

To:    <dxxxxxxxx>
Subject:    RE: Federal Premium - Ask the Expert Form
Date:    Friday, October 16, 2009 10:40:29 AM   [View Source]



P223Q- Nosler Partition 60gr.

––––-Original Message––––-
From: xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:22 PM
To: Prodserv
Subject: Federal Premium - Ask the Expert Form


What is your best three bullets in 223 for hunting whitetail deer?
Thanks.


They only gave one answer when I asked for their three best 223 bullets to use for whitetails.
You can see their answer - the 60 gr Nosler Partition.
Not much help I know.

ETA - Nosler Partitions might have been recommended because they give good expansion, good penetration, and great weight retention, especially after hitting bone on game animals.

Customer service at work, folks

Strange that they only gave you that one answer.

If you look on their website they also list the P223S  Barnes Tripple Shock as being suitable for deer.  (they have little pictures next to the different types and only the P223Q and P223S have deer next to them, the others all have targets or ground hogs)

This test towards the bottom, the 62 gr Fed Bonded Tactical penetrated 14", Expanded to .30 and retained about 1/2 it's weight after being shot through windshield glass.  That's pretty good performance for a .223 through a windshield.   Would like to see how their hunting loads compare.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/Butte_WBW_5_27_09.pdf

I was a bit disappointed myself. Feel free to contact them yourself at http://www.federalpremium.com/general/our_company/contact_us.aspx .
You may get a better response.
One thing I might point out to you that there is a different expansion requirement between a soft target such as flesh and bone vs that of steel and laminated glass. Only field trials can determine how well they perform.
I just know that the bullet manufacturers sometimes have had tremendous results (they thought!) in lab experiments with new bullets and dismal performance in the field.

I made these posts in a similar thread.  Someone should make a compilation of the threads on this subject and tack it...





.416 Rigby with a 400gn Hornady softpoint @ 2500 FPS at the muzzle.
Range 150 yards. The bullet entered the left chest just in front of
shoulder (deer quartering towards me) obliterated the top half of the
heart and liquified the front half of the lungs, then came to rest on
the ball joint of the right hip. The 10 point buck stayed on his hooves
and ran 40 yards. No blood trail, not a single drop.





.223 Rem with a 60 gn Nosler Partition @ 2900 fps. Range 165 yards.
Classic broadside shot just behind the shoulder on a mature doe. Bullet
penetrated completely through the ribcage leaving a golf ball sized
exit. The heart was missing 2/3 of it's top half with 6" diameter area
of both lungs liquified. The doe ran about 50 yards. OK blood trail.





.223 Rem with 62 gn Barnes TSX @ 2900 fps. Range 145 yards. Classic
broadside shot high in the shoulder on a mature doe. Bullet penetrated
completely breaking both shoulders leaving a quarter sized exit wound.
6" diameter area of both lungs liquified. Doe DRT. Not a single step.
(I had the exact same shot and performance using a 120 gn Barnes TSX
out of my 6.5x57 @ 2900 fps on a small 8 point. My son had the same
performance with a 180 gn TSX out of the .308 @ 100 yards. There is
something "magic" about the high shoulder shot, 1/2 to 2/3 of the way
up the chest/shoulder that just seems to work like a light switch. I
think it traumatizes the spine and knocks the deer out, then they bleed
out before coming to.)





7mm Rem Mag with 140 gn Nosler Ballistic Tip @ 3000 fps. Range 100
yards. Classic broadside shot on a mature buck. Buck dropped at the
shot, then while my buddy and his young son were giving each other high
fives, the deer walked off into a thorn thicket so dense we had to
crawl into it on our hands an knees. We followed a blood trail that at
times was so heavy it looked like someone was pouring it out by the
Coke can. The trail went on for about 400 yards through the thicket,
then into an open field where it tapered off to a few drops then
stopped. The deer was never recovered. It's as if it "rubbed some dirt
on it and walked it off". (The year before, my son shot a nice doe with
a .223 62 gn TSX from the exact same blind and had the exact same
results, except the blood trail only went about 100 yards. The folks
who own that property say they have lost DOZENS of deer the same way
from that blind with 7x57, .270, .308... As hard as we all try to
recover every animal shot, there will always be a few that haunt us.)





I've seen enough deer shot with the .223 to know that a 60 gn or
heavier bullet designed for use on deer sized game will leave a wound
channel that is virtually indistinguishable from that of a .270 or
.30-06 IN THE CASE OF BROADSIDE SHOTS WITH RANGES OF 250 YARDS OR LESS.
I've seen enough deer shot to know that you can NEVER count on a blood
trail even when using a .416 Rigby. Heart shots work, but the deer is
going to run for 30 to 200 yards, maybe more. High shoulder shots tend
to be DRT but you are going to waste a large part of both shoulders.
There's not a cartridge in existence that doesn't have at least 1
"failure" on it's record.





.223 with 60 gn and heavier bullets will work just fine if the hunter
is patient enough to wait for a shot that will pass through both lungs.
A flubbed shot with ANY cartridge has a high potential for unrecovered
game.





I know there is a bit (quite possibly a LOT) of disbelief/hesitation
for a lot of folks to trust a .223 to properly do the job on deer sized
animals. I WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE. I grew up when most of the
experienced hunters viewed .243 and 6mm Rem as marginal, and PROPER
deer cartridges started with the .257 Roberts.





Given the projectiles available in most areas in the 70's and 80's, old
cup and core designs the best of the era being the Remington Core Lockt
and the Hornady Interlock, the seasoned hunters were probably right.
Sure, the Nosler Partition had been available to handloaders for about
40 years, but just as today the VAST majority of hunters bought their
ammo from the local sporting goods counter at Walmart or a local Mom
& Pop gun shop, and they probably decided to buy whichever box was
cheapest. The major manufactures didn't really start offering their
'premium' bullets until the late 80's early 90's, and if the local shop
even carried them, they were usually twice the price of the standard
offering (that really hasn't changed over the years). Remember, this
was WAY before the internet and the Cabela's and Bass Pro mega marts.





Back then, the manufactures marketed ammo and rifles tailored to
specific niches. They loaded .223, .22-250, .243/6mm ammo with light
weight thin jacketed bullets, and they offered rifles in those calibers
with slow twist 1/12 or 1/14 barrels. Using those combinations on deer
sized game most certainly was a BAD idea. Remember when a 55 gn .224"
was HEAVY? What about 80 gn .243"... They didn't offer anything else
because their slow twist factory barrels couldn't stabilize anything
heavier.





Technology has made BIG advances over the last 30 years. Electronics
and data communications have been the leaders of the pack, but the
bullet tinkerers have been busy too. The current bullet technology is
FAR ahead of the old cup and core designs. Bonded core bullets like the
Swift Scirocco, Hornady Interbond, Nosler Accubond, Remington Core
Lockt Ultra Bond are marvelous. The monolithic copper bullets like the
Barnes TSX and the Hornady GMX are astoundingly effective.





We can thank the custom barrel makers for the fast twist barrels we
have today and the custom bullet makers for the heavier, bonded
core/monolithic copper bullets that are available. Today's .223 Rem
loaded with a 70 gn Barnes TSX coupled with a 1/7 twist barrel is
VASTLY different than the .223 rifle and ammo on the shelves in 1980.





The very first deer I saw taken with a .223 was shot by the now ex-wife
of a well known member here. She wanted to hunt, but the .270 her
husband was using kicked too much for her to handle. I had been reading
of many folks using .223 loaded with quality 60 gn and heavier bullets
for a few years, and I decided to load up some 60 gn Nosler Partitions
with an eye on shooting a deer with them. Well, as things worked out,
Nicole was the one who actually got to do it. We spent about an hour on
the 100 yard practice range making sure she could keep every shot in a
4" circle, and we talked all about whitetail anatomy and bullet
placement. Nicole went out to the stand that afternoon and shot a small
doe at 40 yards. The deer was quartering away from her. The bullet
entered on the left side about 3 ribs up from the diaphragm, it
obliterated the liver and both lungs, then broke the right shoulder
leaving a golf ball sized exit wound. She said the deer dropped in its
tracks and kicked for a few seconds, but died before she could reload.
That deer was hanging in the skinning shed next to another one that had
been dropped with a .270 when I got back to the ranch house (empty
handed, I should add). The wound channels were VERY similar. She was
quite happy with herself and she had every right to be. She went out to
that stand alone and cleanly killed her first deer without ANY
assistance.





In all honesty, the .223 worked a LOT better than I ever thought it
would. Over the years the range has increased but the results have
remained consistent. I'm comfortable that a properly loaded .223 is
very capable of cleanly killing 250 lb whitetails out to 250 yards AS
LONG AS THE HUNTER HAS THE PATIENCE TO WAIT FOR A REASONABLE BROADSIDE
SHOT AND THE SKILL TO PUT THE BULLET THROUGH BOTH LUNGS.

Excellent post. Thanks for your effort.
My mind has been changed to some degree.
What I found best was your advice for the hunter to have the patience for a good killing shot and to have the proper bullet.
One thing I do know is that with the advent of wildcatters such as the 220 Swift being made a factory round, bullet manufacture and technology has increased as greatly as comparing the telegraph to the internet email.
It came from some people claiming that cartridges like the 220 Swift could drop an elephant (super high velocity and super deep penetration theorists). Of course it wasn't true but enough people kept using centerfire 22s that the bullet manufactures developed and manufactured bullets that are far more proper for large game hunting.
Some people may have missed the best thing that came out of this discussion - it's more the proper bullet than it is the proper cartridge.
If you're going to use a 223 to hunt whitetail MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE PROPER BULLET.

That doesn't mean I'm going to use a 223 for deer hunting. Oklahoma wheat fed deer are substantially bigger than those deer that get shot off golf courses in Texas.

Those Okie wheat fed deer are OK , but I've seen several members here post pics of some big ol' corn fed IA, NE, SD, and MI whitetails that were nicely put down with .223.  Bullet construction and bullet placement are the keys to success in this sport.  

If'n you say so. But I may run into that huge buck that might get mistaken for a mule if he didn't have horns and that can give a bull moose an even tussle.
Here at one of the racetracks we had a guy win race after race. People sure thought he had a funny looking horse but genetic testing showed t was a huge whitetail doe he had saddle broke.
If I run into the daddy, my 223 bolt or AR, or even my 22-250, ain't gonna cut it.

Folks cleanly drop elk with the .243 (granted, they are not taking 500 yard Texas heart shots). I like the .223, but I'm a 6.5mm fan boy... Yes, the bigger bullets give you more opportunities for success (range and angles) but if the hunter is up to the job so is the .224" Partition/A-Frame/TSX/Scirocco.





Edited to add:  a .22-250 with a 1/8 twist barrel launching a 70 gn TSX at 2900+ FPS would be one HELL of a deer killing machine out to 500 yards.