Posted: 7/17/2009 11:26:28 AM EDT
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I am starting to work on my Bug Out Trailer and while I do have a fairly large gas generator already I am planning to build a rack on the front of my trailer that will hold a 30# propane bottle and one or two 12-volt Marrine Batteries so I am considering my options to buy a SMALL propane generator mainly for use in the bug out trailer but I have zero experience with these so I have some basic questions.
First, I know the basics on how they work some reference links: Why Use a Propane Generator Tips for Choosing a Portable Generator Now, because I do have a 5500 Watt gas generator already and this really is intended for use for camping, job sites, or for bugging out I want to go with a smaller propane unit. I "think" a 3000-watt max unit will be adequate and the model that got me looking into this more is this one: http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=413461 Similar Chinese unit here: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100669122&N=10000003+524797+10401013 I looked at the Yamaha and Honda offerings and these will cost me up over $1500 which is well out of my budget for anytime in the near future and are more then I want for an emergency Bug Out Genset. I do recognize that the better units are quieter. The noise of the 1st generator is listed at 65db which is like loud talking and the generator is 23.5" x 17" x 17.5", with a weight of 105 pounds making it a reasonable size for my purpose. Now, while I am interested in looking at a propane generator the second part of this project is wiring my trailer to accept power from say a 120-volt 30amp service, home type outlet, or the generator. I have been studing how RVs are wired to allow both AC and DC systems to work at the same time and I have figured out that what I need is something like this: Manual: http://www.parallaxpower.com/6700/PPS%206730%20Owner_Operator%20Guide.pdf One store that had them: http://store.rvdirect.com/rvdirect/details.php?ITEM=1406730 Note that this unit provides 12-volt DC power for lights, radio, etc as well as charges the battery when the AC power is attached. It also has breakers for 125v AC electric for outlets. What I don't know is if I am making this far more complicated then I need to? What I am looking to do is be able to wire the trailer to use 12-volt power via a battery and this system adds a way to use 125-volt AC power to run these 12volt items plus charge the battery. The 125-volt circuits are really not something I necersarily need but might be very nice to have. So, anybody have experience with propane generators? Abybody have a clue about RV power Converters like I am describing? If the RV Converter says it runs off 125 volt AC 60HZ, 30 amp and the first generator I listed providing 27.5 amps at 120 Volts will the generator be able to power this box? If I need to move to a smaller power converter box that would be fine as well but I am really not sure if what I have listed will work together or not and we have some pros on here so I figured I would ask. Thanks! |
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What is your projected 120V electrical load? A few "marine" batteries makes it appear that you aren't running much. You could probably make do with a smaller genset. If you truly need a larger genset, and if you already have a quality 5.5kW unit, convert it to propane and use it. Not a huge difference between 5.5kW and 3kW if you're using a 3kW at 80% or more. If your 5.5 isn't a quality unit, consider saving up for a quality unit. The "inverter" type generators are indeed much quieter. A lot of the inverter types have an 8A or so 12VDC output as well.
You know the answer to your $500 generator question. Cheap materials, cheap fasteners, low quality control, poor weatherproofing or bug proofing, no long term reliability. Cheap Chinese engines are for people who needed something to get through a hurricane, have power for a one-time outing or project, or power their kiddos cheap off-road go cart until they tire of it. Not something to bug out with. For maximum battery life and performance, choose a temperature controlled battery charger. Two of the worst enemies of batteries are overcharging (very common) and temperature. 77 degrees is the industry standard for performance ratings and expected lifespan... but most batteries spend their lives in much warmer environs. There is a huge battery industry that might make a much better battery for your use than a "marine" battery or other automotive type. Those marine/auto batteries are built more for vibration/shock, temperature extremes, and momentary high current discharge. Look at Power battery, C&D battery, Deka, Surrette, etc. The Parallax power center draws as much as you use. Probably a max 500W for the battery charger side + whatever your load is on the AC side (looks like 15A max on the AC load breaker). A 3kW generator would be fine as long as you limited your AC load to 15A max while charging almost-dead batteries at 30A and nothing shorted out. |
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Quoted:
If the RV Converter says it runs off 125 volt AC 60HZ, 30 amp and the first generator I listed providing 27.5 amps at 120 Volts will the generator be able to power this box? The "30 amp" specification refers to the maximum amount of AC current the circuit breakers in the converter are capable of passing along to any other connected AC loads. The converter itself doesn't draw anywhere near 30 amps for battery charging and operating 12 volt accessories. So, your 27.5 amp generator should be plenty powerful enough to operate the converter by itself. As an alternative to a converter, have you considered using an inverter/charger instead? The inverter section is capable of providing 120 volt AC power from your batteries, and the charger section will do a good job of recharging your batteries when the trailer is plugged into some external AC power source (or when your generator is running). Having an inverter gives you the ability to power small AC loads without firing up the generator - a huge advantage. The biggest disadvantage is that none of the inverter-chargers include circuit breakers for each individual load - You'll have to provide your own load center for that job. Fortunately, the load center and a few circuit breakers to install in it are cheap and readily available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I am planning to build a rack on the front of my trailer that will hold a 30# propane bottle and one or two 12-volt Marrine Batteries
6-volt "golf cart" batteries provide MUCH longer life than 12-volt "Marine/RV/Trolling Motor" batteries, at little additional cost. To use them in a 12-volt system, you connect two of them in series (rather than connecting two 12-volt batteries in parallel). Look for the Trojan T-105, T-125 or T-145 models at your local golf cart shop - They are SUPERB batteries. |
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Quoted:
What is your projected 120V electrical load? A few "marine" batteries makes it appear that you aren't running much. You could probably make do with a smaller genset. If you truly need a larger genset, and if you already have a quality 5.5kW unit, convert it to propane and use it. ..... Our gas generator is a Brigs and Stratton unit with 7,500 Watt Starting and 5,500 Watt standard load. The main reason I was looking at a propane solution was noise and to get a smaller more portable unit. If I am considering buying a smaller unit, then going with propane, or so my thought process was, that I would then have two options. You know the answer to your $500 generator question. Cheap materials, cheap fasteners, low quality control,.....
Yea, best to put this addition on hold and buy a better unit and plan on bugging out with the bigger generator for now. For maximum battery life and performance, choose a temperature controlled battery charger. <snip> The Parallax power center draws as much as you use. Probably a max 500W for the battery charger side + whatever your load is on the AC side (looks like 15A max on the AC load breaker). A 3kW generator would be fine as long as you limited your AC load to 15A max while charging almost-dead batteries at 30A and nothing shorted out.
Thanks for the advise and I am really just starting to look at how to do this and I have a lot to learn. Quoted:
The "30 amp" specification refers to the maximum amount of AC current the circuit breakers in the converter are capable of passing along to any other connected AC loads. The converter itself doesn't draw anywhere near 30 amps for battery charging and operating 12 volt accessories. So, your 27.5 amp generator should be plenty powerful enough to operate the converter by itself. Thanks! As an alternative to a converter, have you considered using an inverter/charger instead? The inverter section is capable of providing 120 volt AC power from your batteries, and the charger section will do a good job of recharging your batteries when the trailer is plugged into some external AC power source (or when your generator is running). Having an inverter gives you the ability to power small AC loads without firing up the generator - a huge advantage. The biggest disadvantage is that none of the inverter-chargers include circuit breakers for each individual load - You'll have to provide your own load center for that job. Fortunately, the load center and a few circuit breakers to install in it are cheap and readily available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc.
That does look like a great option! http://www.valencemarine.com/XANTREX-FREEDOM-HF-1000-INVERTER-CHARGER_p_7086.html I am planning to build a rack on the front of my trailer that will hold a 30# propane bottle and one or two 12-volt Marrine Batteries
6-volt "golf cart" batteries provide MUCH longer life than 12-volt "Marine/RV/Trolling Motor" batteries, at little additional cost......
Thanks for the suggestion. I am still deciding how I want to do this but one option I have considered is adding a small diamond plate toolbox to the tongue of the trailer. The batteries would be mounted in the toolbox and wires would then run into the trailer and what ever system I use to charge the batteries, and everything will be plugged into this power box I am planning to make. The box will also be made to be portable so that I can clamp it to a shelf in the trailer or unclamped and brought into a basement, camp, etc. I know I need to make sure the power box is well ventilated with adequate clearnces for components. I am planning to use plywood with carry handles on the sides. There will be holes on all sides for air exchange. The unit will have the necessary fuses and breakers attached inside of the box such that what I will have is a plug into the system where I hook up my 120-volt AC power, one or more AC outlets out (perhaps a surge supressor strip mounted), 12 volt cable hookups to go to the battery, and one or more 12-volt outlets where lights, chargers, radios, portable TV, etc would be plugged into. For my project, I am trying to build everything so that it can be removed so everything will be modular with power cords connecting everything to this box. I will try to post some rough sketches in my Bug Out Trailer thread once I have a better idea what I need and how to do it but the info posted above is a huge help already! As for the propane on the tonge of the trailer, I am thinking that a better way would be to simply keep the propane cylinder inside the trailer as that would keep it more secure. If I later decide to add a propane heater or other system I can always work on another rack that might mount the propane cylinder on top of the trailer tonge toolbox. Too many possibilities but before I start I want to make sure I have considered the big items that adding later could be an issue. |
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Quoted:
I am still deciding how I want to do this but one option I have considered is adding a small diamond plate toolbox to the tongue of the trailer. The batteries would be mounted in the toolbox and wires would then run into the trailer and what ever system I use to charge the batteries, and everything will be plugged into this power box I am planning to make. The box will also be made to be portable so that I can clamp it to a shelf in the trailer or unclamped and brought into a basement, camp, etc. Considering that the box will contain two 60-pound batteries (plus the weight of the battery box itself), you probably aren't going to be carrying it around all that much... 
The battery acid will be hard on the diamond-plate aluminum, even if you put a layer of plywood between them. Everything inside the box will be subject to rapid corrosion. |
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Sounds like a lot of weight on the tongue for a single axle trailer.
If you look around for used quality generators you might find some. I came up with a used honda 1k watt generator last month for less than 300 dollars at a pawn show. It is beat up a bit and has been used but it fires right up on the first pull and runs great so it looks like it was moved more than it was used to me. I would keep the propane on the tongue of the trailer, same reasons for why propane is stored outside the home and not inside the home. For batteries that you only need to access while wiring up you might consider a box close to the axle and under the floor of the trailer. This keeps the weight in the center of the trailer and down low and you can work ventilation however you want to work it out. Depending on time of year you may not need to take some items. I am currently considering propane mostly for heating the trailer. Any propane lanterns would probably run on the small 1 lb cans and I don't intend to be filling them using the bottle on tongue of the trailer so if it is not cold then the bottle on the tongue of the trailer does not need to go. But if your generator is using it for fuel then I understand that it has to go. I might add a propane cooktop to my setup since I have a small cooktop already and then my propane would always go. With the bigger batteries mentioned I figure the only thing I want a generator for is the rooftop ac unit if I can find one that will run on that size generator and for recharging batteries. I don't plan to run much else that would require the generator to run and the rooftop ac unit is more for cooling things off at bed time and then shut it down and just keep some air moving with fans. I like the invertor/chargers mentioned above, need to get around to learning more about them. I already have some different size invertors though because they are nice to have in the vehicle anyway if you have electronic toys. Overall it sounds like the ideas are there and I offer the above for brainstorming. I have not even figured out what trailer I want to start seriously looking for. I am still in the learning stage and looking for deals stage. I hope my honda is sized fine for what I want but if not I figure I can sell it for what I paid for it so it is not really a big deal one way or the other. I recomend keeping an eye on however people in your area sell stuff. Down here pawnshops and some local internet stuff rule. The newspapers rarely have anything good. In ohio there were no pawnshops where I grew up so this is kind of new to me down here. |
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