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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:25:56 AM EDT
[#1]
Not gonna happen around here.
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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:34:19 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not gonna happen around here. Same thing here, sore thumb and all ya know. 
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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:37:03 AM EDT
[#3]
A local college (Georgia Military College) was on the latest bulletin reference to ISIS target list.
I don't know why though. It's a junior college.
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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:37:59 AM EDT
[#4]
So why do you think it can't happen around you?
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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:44:09 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So why do you think it can't happen around you? Same reason 9/11 attacks didnt...they want to hit places with large quantities of people and places of significance. Hitting the suburb of Pleasantville isnt going to put a very big exclamation point on their cause. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:47:09 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same reason 9/11 attacks didnt...they want to hit places with large quantities of people and places of significance. Hitting the suburb of Pleasantville isnt going to put a very big exclamation point on their cause. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So why do you think it can't happen around you? Same reason 9/11 attacks didnt...they want to hit places with large quantities of people and places of significance. Hitting the suburb of Pleasantville isnt going to put a very big exclamation point on their cause. What if they hit 5 or 6 Pleasantvilles at the same time sendind a message that nobody is safe? |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:53:18 AM EDT
[#7]
If zero isn't worried, why should I be?
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Posted: 9/1/2014 10:20:30 AM EDT
[#8]
Dirty bomb is unlikely due to the logistical hurdles. Using TIC/TIM (Toxic industrial chemicals/Toxic industrial materials) is more likely and even then, it's pretty low on my list of likely means of an attack.
Look at what the terrorists are doing in other parts of the world and I think that some version of that is the most likely course of action here. Terrorists love places of significance and dates of significance. They also choose places that are more likely to result in lots of casualties. I think eventually we'll see an active shooter type of scenario with numerous attackers with plenty of IEDs and weapons. No clue when or where but I think they would love to pull off something like that here. It's pretty successful in other parts of the world, why not do it here? I think the most likely action though will be something like the Boston Marathon bombing. Small and disconnected cells doing attacks in areas with a lot of people for max effect. Aside from their radicalism, their threats against the US shows that they are fools. The current president views them as "JV terrorists" so as long as they left the US and US interests alone, the US would likely leave them alone. Of course, we may well end up in WWIII but either way, they would probably get their way if they just quit trying to drag the US into a fight that they can't win. They certainly are some pretty determined and motivated (and now well funded) fools. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 10:25:32 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same reason 9/11 attacks didnt...they want to hit places with large quantities of people and places of significance. Hitting the suburb of Pleasantville isnt going to put a very big exclamation point on their cause. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So why do you think it can't happen around you? Same reason 9/11 attacks didnt...they want to hit places with large quantities of people and places of significance. Hitting the suburb of Pleasantville isnt going to put a very big exclamation point on their cause. That would be even bigger as far as scaring the public. If it can happen in Podunk-ville, pop. 800, it can happen anywhere. 9/11 didn't make it even occur to me that it "could happen here". It was in a big population center just as one would expect. If we get attacked by these dicks, I expect it to be a school. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 10:36:16 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What if they hit 5 or 6 Pleasantvilles at the same time sendind a message that nobody is safe? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So why do you think it can't happen around you? Same reason 9/11 attacks didnt...they want to hit places with large quantities of people and places of significance. Hitting the suburb of Pleasantville isnt going to put a very big exclamation point on their cause. What if they hit 5 or 6 Pleasantvilles at the same time sendind a message that nobody is safe? or drop one High tension tower |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 11:04:41 AM EDT
[#11]
There are literally thousands of scenarios that would cause panic and mayhem across the country. ISIS wants to kill Americans and have declared war on us to that end. Given the ideology and policy of the current leaders of our country, there has never been a better time in our history for them to carry out their ideas.
Is an attack possible in my hometown? Sure. Am I worried about it? A little. Can I really do anything about it? Not really, except to do the things I am already doing. I am still going to go to work, I am still going to carry, I am still going to go shopping for food, clothing, ammo, etc. I am still going to network with my neighbors and like minded friends. I am still going to do the best I can for my family. I am not going to change my lifestyle, to do so gives the terrorists a small victory. That doesn't mean I wont pay attention to what's going on and decide on how and where I go. We should all remain prudent everyday in the choices we make. Should my community or myself get caught up in some sort of attack, I will take appropriate measures based on what's happening. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 11:18:40 AM EDT
[#12]
I live in Colorado Springs. So it's possible
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Posted: 9/1/2014 11:32:09 AM EDT
[#13]
One day, they are going to pull off a Mall Shooting, or a Beslan school attack, or pull a Mumbai. We'll get the double whammie of a high body count and the gov't will go absolutely nuts banning guns afterwards. Never mind the fact that the guns came from Mexico, or Afghanistan, or where ever. never mind the fact that they walked across the border and did their deed in a border town. It will be the 2nd A's fault, somehow.
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Posted: 9/1/2014 11:32:44 AM EDT
[#14]
I think its a possibility to prove your homes are not safe. I would also be concerned about attacks at daycares and schools. Killing our children is extremely terrifying and effective.
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Posted: 9/1/2014 11:58:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Home made bombs a few shootings and behead a couple people and you tube it before they are stopped would paralyze the nation. Just look at the beltway sniper have a dozen 2 Man teams around the country and it will look like an invasion.
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Posted: 9/1/2014 12:09:00 PM EDT
[#16]
All of the above are my concerns. I don't feel or see any concerns from neighbors or local agencies about this type of attack. Everyone is concerned about large buildings, dams, etc. I see a situations where groups of these guys band together, plow through small areas and small towns just to kill and destroy, book out and disband.
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Posted: 9/1/2014 12:25:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not gonna happen around here. Here in Northeast Iowa, there have been known terrorists from Somalia picked off the streets of small towns. They're not here for the weather or awesome jobs. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 12:38:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One day, they are going to pull off a Mall Shooting, or a Beslan school attack, or pull a Mumbai. We'll get the double whammie of a high body count and the gov't will go absolutely nuts banning guns afterwards. Never mind the fact that the guns came from Mexico, or Afghanistan, or where ever. never mind the fact that they walked across the border and did their deed in a border town. It will be the 2nd A's fault, somehow. This. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 12:39:26 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Home made bombs a few shootings and behead a couple people and you tube it before they are stopped would paralyze the nation. Just look at the beltway sniper have a dozen 2 Man teams around the country and it will look like an invasion. Pretty much this. Look at the chaos that the Sandy Hook shooter caused. Now imagine that X 10 and the country would absolutely lose its mind. There are also about 30 or so known "Muslum" compounds AKA terrorist training centers across the nation that the government is not keeping tabs on. It would not be hard to think that these compounds could launch 1 team each across the nation to cause absolute chaos. The next terrorist attack is just around the corner and I think it will be worse than 9/11. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 1:00:57 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same reason 9/11 attacks didnt...they want to hit places with large quantities of people and places of significance. Hitting the suburb of Pleasantville isnt going to put a very big exclamation point on their cause. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So why do you think it can't happen around you? Same reason 9/11 attacks didnt...they want to hit places with large quantities of people and places of significance. Hitting the suburb of Pleasantville isnt going to put a very big exclamation point on their cause. On the contrary. Imagine the fear inspired by a mumbai style attack in every day America. Dorner shut down an entire state. That was one guy who had strict ROE's set for himself. Imagine a team of two or more assholes with no ROE's restricting who they engaged shooting up Anytown, America. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 6:43:58 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not gonna happen around here. and you're how far from Dearborn, Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis all have large Muslim populations, many with unemployed youth with bleak outlooks for their futures. ETA Graffiti in Christian churches references Koran in Columbus In. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 7:17:31 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
and you're how far from Dearborn, Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis all have large Muslim populations, many with unemployed youth with bleak outlooks for their futures. ETA Graffiti in Christian churches references Koran in Columbus In. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not gonna happen around here. and you're how far from Dearborn, Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis all have large Muslim populations, many with unemployed youth with bleak outlooks for their futures. ETA Graffiti in Christian churches references Koran in Columbus In. Maybe he/she is muslim and lives in one of their enclaves..... or maybe someone is just underestimating one of our countries enemies? |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 8:26:58 PM EDT
[#25]
They would last long in my AO. It may be NY but we don't take no crap
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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:16:35 PM EDT
[#26]
I'm thinking if ISIS were to come up from Mexico into the US to do some kind of terrorist act, it would likely strike at something intended to strike fear into the population, not take out a symbol of our power (like AQ did). In the demented ISIS mind, it would be A-OK to go to Mall of America, blast in with guns a-blazin', and kill as many Americans as possible. The exit strategy after running out of ammo may or may not include escape, or it may be suicide vests, or blowing up a few support columns and causing a building collapse. The "point" of the exercise would be similar to tactics they have been using in Iraq, take a few people from the village, execute them in a most horrendous and violent way, and let that serve as a message that the rest of the village better submit or face the same.
Frankly, the only way "we" are going to stop a group like ISIS is to return the favor. Put a few thru a wood chipper feet first along with some pig skins, leaves and bark and call it Jihadi mulch. Sprinkle that around the perimeter of the villages with those signs you see where farmers are using the latest designer seed from Monsanto: "Jihadi mulch - makes the best shrubbery". Of course, if an ISIS-er wants to repent, fine, cut off his hands and another part of his anatomy so he can never pick up a weapon or rape another woman/boy, and send him packing back to the rest of his Jihadi buddies so they get the message loud and clear. You cannot "negotiate" with blood-thirsty murderers, you can only dissuade them, kill them or dissuade them by killing them. From a practical perspective, if you are prepared to deal with an angry flash mob in your daily activities, you're probably prepared to deal with a handful of subhuman animals with guns anyway. 
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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:48:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What if they hit 5 or 6 Pleasantvilles at the same time sendind a message that nobody is safe? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So why do you think it can't happen around you? Same reason 9/11 attacks didnt...they want to hit places with large quantities of people and places of significance. Hitting the suburb of Pleasantville isnt going to put a very big exclamation point on their cause. What if they hit 5 or 6 Pleasantvilles at the same time sendind a message that nobody is safe? They need a body count. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 10:19:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They would last long in my AO. It may be NY but we don't take no crap They would, would they? |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 10:50:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Sounds to me that the easiest way to sow terror is to let peoples' imaginations run wild and, through unrealistic and groundless concern, start questioning their own safety in bumblefuck America. Terror relies on mental weakness, much like the acceptance of it as an inevitable part of the modern world. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 2:50:13 AM EDT
[#30]
In Calif, the authorities would round up all of the people that reg'd "assault weapons" and call it a day.
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Posted: 9/2/2014 7:23:03 AM EDT
[#31]
Crossroads of America area.... I could see an attack happening here. My guess something Beslan style or as mentioned elsewhere mall/walmart shootings or maybe a daycare. Dead kids always seem to strike a nerve and drive home a lot of fear and dominate the media. Add to a huge mosque or two in the area and a bunch of foreigners here on student visa's etc... its possible. As for what Im doing to prepare, just the usual. Can't live in fear forever.
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Posted: 9/2/2014 9:09:00 AM EDT
[#32]
While I do live in a small town, there is a Navy training center with at least 2 nuclear reactors not too far from me.
Since it's not a densely populated area, I'm hoping that nobody will ever target that area. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 9:17:44 AM EDT
[#33]
I live in the Twin Cities.
This is terrorist raghead central for the United States.
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Posted: 9/2/2014 10:14:24 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds to me that the easiest way to sow terror is to let peoples' imaginations run wild and, through unrealistic and groundless concern, start questioning their own safety in bumblefuck America. Terror relies on mental weakness, much like the acceptance of it as an inevitable part of the modern world. But it works better if you have a few real acts here and there, that brings it home |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 10:54:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I live in the Twin Cities. This is terrorist raghead central for the United States. 
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Posted: 9/2/2014 11:11:09 AM EDT
[#36]
I could see a mall shooting scenario happening. It wouldn't take much for a handful of wackos to orchestrate. Sawgrass Mills mall, near me, is the #5 most visited mall in the country. It sees 26 Million people annually.
I go as little as possible, and it is ALWAYS packed. I've never been there and seen it empty. Lots and lots of tourist traffic. There are times where the crowd is so thick it's impossible to pass anyone and you just have to move with the herd. Even two or three bad guys without any kind of plan could do some serious damage in a place like that. I think this kind of thing is the most likely scenario we'd see from the terrorists next. I hope not, but it just makes sense. The mall shooting in the ME could have even been a test run for all we know. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 11:20:39 AM EDT
[#37]
Americans tend to be very bad at assessing threats.
Terrorist attacks and mass murders will happen again and again. And we're preparing for them with a domestic army, Homeland Security. We obsess over them. Children get dragged out of schools in handcuffs for saying "Bang". But you are far, far more likely to be killed on a bicycle, or in a swimming pool. Choking on a hotdog in the cafeteria is far more of a threat to your kids than school shooters. Even 9/11 was only equivalent to a holiday weekend of traffic accidents. If safety was our true concern, we'd let kids play cops-and-robbers, but arrest them if they want to eat a hotdog. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 2:44:05 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe he/she is muslim and lives in one of their enclaves..... or maybe someone is just underestimating one of our countries enemies? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not gonna happen around here. and you're how far from Dearborn, Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis all have large Muslim populations, many with unemployed youth with bleak outlooks for their futures. ETA Graffiti in Christian churches references Koran in Columbus In. Maybe he/she is muslim and lives in one of their enclaves..... or maybe someone is just underestimating one of our countries enemies? seemingly much of the tread participates as well, This has been a threat to us since the 70's and handled like a regional issue, Islam wants world domination.. and they Will be here shortly. I personally believe the only reason we've not had a major event is they send their soldiers here, who then discover booby bars, beer and bacon, a triple threat to Wahhabis every where...and decide the Great Satan aint so bad after all. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 3:12:24 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What if they hit 5 or 6 Pleasantvilles at the same time sendind a message that nobody is safe? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So why do you think it can't happen around you? Same reason 9/11 attacks didnt...they want to hit places with large quantities of people and places of significance. Hitting the suburb of Pleasantville isnt going to put a very big exclamation point on their cause. What if they hit 5 or 6 Pleasantvilles at the same time sendind a message that nobody is safe? I said this same thing on page 4 in this forum August 27th: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1659439_So_where_is__ISiS_going_to_hit_us_this_9_11_.html&page=4 |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 3:43:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Don't worry about it, go golfing.
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Posted: 9/2/2014 4:30:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Columbus, IN is getting a bit close to home. and the "faith leader" (Catholic priest?) of the church can't even acknowledge the true meaning of the message? Its this PC bullshit that is going to get a lot of people killed. This tread and the other "ISIS 9/11 targets" thread really have me thinking of all the terrible scenarios that are possible. Then I get an email from the Catholic school where two of my kids attend stating that a lockdown protocol had to be invoked today due to a "An adult male placed a shopping cart cart near the school building, approached the MPR doors, and then proceeded to walk towards the church where he was no longer in plain view." Scared the shit out of me.
Parent meeting tonight of all nights. My first question is going to be when are they getting an armed police presence. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 4:43:46 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Evey where I read all reports appear to indicate that an ISIS threat (or any other radical group) would be a 911 type of attack or a dirty bomb. Why isn't anyone looking at the possibility of a bunch of ISIS members gathering in an area or multiple areas and opening up attacks on a small towns or even a subdivisions? These guys could do a lot damage and killing before any defensive forces are put together.. They don't care if they die or not, they have noting to loose and everything to gain. Because attacks in Bumfuck OH do not rate on a 'Wow That's Hot!" scale. Besides it could be years before anyone heard of it. That is why they attack much more visible locations - places people know. The idea being if they can hit high visibility/important targets they can hit anywhere, which causes more fear. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 4:50:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Hitting my AO would probably net them 14 stray cats, a 15-year old Lab mix, buncha chickens and possibly an unlucky coyote.
Bring it, Abdul. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 4:52:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because attacks in Bumfuck OH do not rate on a 'Wow That's Hot!" scale. Besides it could be years before anyone heard of it. That is why they attack much more visible locations - places people know. The idea being if they can hit high visibility/important targets they can hit anywhere, which causes more fear. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Evey where I read all reports appear to indicate that an ISIS threat (or any other radical group) would be a 911 type of attack or a dirty bomb. Why isn't anyone looking at the possibility of a bunch of ISIS members gathering in an area or multiple areas and opening up attacks on a small towns or even a subdivisions? These guys could do a lot damage and killing before any defensive forces are put together.. They don't care if they die or not, they have noting to loose and everything to gain. Because attacks in Bumfuck OH do not rate on a 'Wow That's Hot!" scale. Besides it could be years before anyone heard of it. That is why they attack much more visible locations - places people know. The idea being if they can hit high visibility/important targets they can hit anywhere, which causes more fear. nearly every BumFuck USA has a mini-mall or Super Wal-Mart and they all have county courthouses...if on 9/11 100 of these dedicated prophets were to walk into 100 malls of America and light it up with AK's and AR15s I think that'll make national news for 24 hours a day until our guns are rounded up and WE're parlayed into criminals who are to blame for upsetting the poor misunderstood middle easterner/Briton/Gall/Turkman or Weezer...(misspelled intentionally)  THEY are at war with us, THEY will if not already float 100s if not 1000's of dedicated "warriors of Islam" into our borders via Mexico and our wide open ports.
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Posted: 9/2/2014 5:20:29 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
nearly every BumFuck USA has a mini-mall or Super Wal-Mart and they all have county courthouses...if on 9/11 100 of these dedicated prophets were to walk into 100 malls of America and light it up with AK's and AR15s. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Evey where I read all reports appear to indicate that an ISIS threat (or any other radical group) would be a 911 type of attack or a dirty bomb. Why isn't anyone looking at the possibility of a bunch of ISIS members gathering in an area or multiple areas and opening up attacks on a small towns or even a subdivisions? These guys could do a lot damage and killing before any defensive forces are put together.. They don't care if they die or not, they have noting to loose and everything to gain. Because attacks in Bumfuck OH do not rate on a 'Wow That's Hot!" scale. Besides it could be years before anyone heard of it. That is why they attack much more visible locations - places people know. The idea being if they can hit high visibility/important targets they can hit anywhere, which causes more fear. nearly every BumFuck USA has a mini-mall or Super Wal-Mart and they all have county courthouses...if on 9/11 100 of these dedicated prophets were to walk into 100 malls of America and light it up with AK's and AR15s. You're not paying attention, that is not their style. If they had that many dedicated followers here they could hit MUCH bigger/more important targets than a few wally worlds or local county courthouses. The only guys to hit local stuff are lone wolf's afflicted with SJS, and thankfully they never seem to do well. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 5:33:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Every where I read all reports appear to indicate that an ISIS threat (or any other radical group) would be a 911 type of attack or a dirty bomb. Why isn't anyone looking at the possibility of a bunch of ISIS members gathering in an area or multiple areas and opening up attacks on a small towns or even a subdivisions? These guys could do a lot damage and killing before any defensive forces are put together.. They don't care if they die or not, they have noting to loose and everything to gain. Haven't you heard? A while back The Man himself declared the way on terror is over (we won). Seriously though, the questions you raise are all legitimate....but the [obvious] answers are too unpleasant to discuss or consider. This is know as 'The Ostrich Syndrome'. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 8:21:51 PM EDT
[#47]
I started a thread in another forum a few years back asking why we aren't seeing more attacks here in the US. I mean it's not exactly hard. Hell, any of us with a gun and a "don't care if I live or die attitude" could pull it off. And as mentioned, smaller attacks in large number would seriously fuck with the mindset of a LOT of people if done on US soil.
But the majority of those replying said that the terrorists get to this country, see how great they can have it (compared to their homeland) and just change their minds. Then there was the bunch with the "just wait, they're plotting" stance. Either one is possible but when you look at how extreme these groups are and how many have(verbally) declared war on the US...and now have stepped up to kidnapping/killing (not a new practice by the way)....it's even more perplexing as to why more are not strapping bombs to their chest and heading to the grocery store or at least blowing up a building or two (i.e. church, temple, office building, mall...Wal-Mart). The "life is too great here" camp loses a little credibility with me. I mean if I were THAT pissed off and determined, you could throw free beer for life and a truckload of Playboy centerfolds hopped up on Ecstacy at me and I'd ignore it and carry out with the plan. But these guys aren't. They are going after soft targets in foreign places that the majority of the US population is troubled by until the MSM takes it off their website with some other news...and then become distanced and disconnected from it. Now as for the OP...COULD it happen in my town? Sure. And it would really shut things down and cause all sorts of chaos! Again, why AREN'T they doing it? Not that I want it but I'm failing to understand the rationale here. -Emt1581 |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 9:05:46 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One day, they are going to pull off a Mall Shooting, or a Beslan school attack, or pull a Mumbai. We'll get the double whammie of a high body count and the gov't will go absolutely nuts banning guns afterwards. Never mind the fact that the guns came from Mexico, or Afghanistan, or where ever. never mind the fact that they walked across the border and did their deed in a border town. It will be the 2nd A's fault, somehow. Bingo, Beslan or Ma'alot. Pulling off half a dozen of those simultaneously would shake our society BADLY. It would fuck up the world of the sheep. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 9:20:34 PM EDT
[#49]
Now it's being reported that upwards of a dozen airliners have been taken over at an airport.
I realize the chances of one of those planes ever making it to our airspace is slim, but there's still a pucker factor. If they somehow figured out a way to pull one (or 12) over on us, they could pull a 9/11 anywhere. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 11:36:20 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now it's being reported that upwards of a dozen airliners have been taken over at an airport. I realize the chances of one of those planes ever making it to our airspace is slim, but there's still a pucker factor. If they somehow figured out a way to pull one (or 12) over on us, they could pull a 9/11 anywhere. Where are you seeing this? I don't see it on any of the channels or sites. Any links or other info? Thanks -Emt1581 |
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