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Posted: 7/4/2010 8:17:02 AM EDT
Well the SHTF for me.   This Independence Day I find myself contemplating just how far this nation has fallen.

After years of success owning my own small business, the shit has finally hit the fan for me and I’m infuriated.  I’m sharing this as a warning because it reflects the larger problems in this country.
Here’s how this went down:

It’s 2008; I’ve doing business with our local branch of LaSalle Bank for years and my company and credit rating are top notch.   LaSalle is part of the community and treated us well.   Both myself and many of my clients have their operational credit lines with this bank.   In 2007 Bank of America buys out my bank;  and in 2009 they assume control over my branch.  BOA fires everyone I had a working relationship with, assigns me a new account manager that’s not even in my state, the new account manager immediately audits the small business loans.  We pass audit, but several clients do not and are put out of business by BOA.  This causes the local small business community to loose money off the unpaid accounts receivable from the bankrupt companies; making our books record losses.  BOA got their money of course.  

BOA after buying major banks like mine,  claims to be too big to fail.  Obama’s TARP 2, was designed to increase bank lending but instead had the opposite effect. The government cash allowed BOA call in their outstanding debts in order to consolidate their wealth. We were immediately re-audited.  The bank pulled our credit line without negotiation or option to appeal, even though we had never been a day late in payments and  had flawless credit scores.   BOA gave us two shitty options:

1.Either pay back the entire outstanding balance immediately in a lump sum.
2.Pay it back monthly with interest on short repayment schedule.  

The economy is quite slow at this point, and we lost a lot of money on the clients that BOA bankrupted the year earlier, and without the credit line we were no longer able to extend credit terms to our customers, greatly limiting our ability to close new jobs or advertize.   Payback with interest was not an option, we simply couldn’t afford it.   So we negotiated a lump-sum repayment.  BOA knew exactly how much cash we had on hand both business and personally due to the audit, and they demanded it all, which turned out to be 60% of the total amount owed; BOA took it and ran.  

We survived, just barely.  But now the IRS is moving in for the coup de grâce.
The IRS claims the difference between the money BOA took from us (which was all of it) and what was owed is PROFIT, and now they are demanding their cut.  The government is now going to bankrupt me.

This 4th of July I’m reflecting on how a free nation turned into an organized crime ring designed to suck every last dollar out of the self-employed.    I’m starting to believe that this is an actual strategy that is designed to enslave the American public into complete dependence on the government and the corporations that fund their political ambitions.

15 years of work, savings, and effort all gone.  Land of the free my ass...

I cannot repay my debts as now 147% of my income goes to taxes.   My failure is going to cause other businesses to fail, and the cycle continues.  

Link Posted: 7/4/2010 8:30:25 AM EDT
[#1]
My brother in law has just gone through the same thing with a worse out come.  They lost the family biz that was started in the 40s.  They could not get their bank to work with them and no other banks would touch them.  Banks are no friends to us even if they act like it.  Good luck bro
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 8:34:29 AM EDT
[#2]
I’m sorry to hear that; I know I’m not alone, which concerns me even more.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 8:48:01 AM EDT
[#3]
I have started, owned and operated 3 different successful businesses. Each was started and based on cash only. No loans of any kind - ever. The first year or so, all profits are poured back into the company to build the business (#3 took approx. 5 yrs…). It takes longer to get the business up and running with a lot of personal sacrifice during the “startup to profit taking period” but once you get over “the hump” your reward is higher than if you are servicing debt. And you are - ‘free’.

This concept occurred to me when I went to buy my first truck. At that time, you could get 4% interest on savings and the car dealer wanted 12% on the loan. I thought, holly crap, that's really a delta of 16% (conceptually). I said forget it, I’ll just drive a $500 beater and save until I can pay cash (earning 4%).

I don’t know how say this gently but your mistake was getting duped into believing you NEEDED debt to start / buy / run your business….
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 9:07:34 AM EDT
[#4]
My prayers go out to the OP, but I can not agree with Ranchhand365 enough; cash is the ONLY way to go with anything: businesses, purchases of any kind, etc... The borrower is slave to the lender: stop the borrowing and you stop the slaving to the lender. That is the only way I live now, and I will NEVER go back to taking out a loan, even for a house (that is why I am renting now); my families financial security is too important to risk otherwise.

Good luck to you sir.

Quoted:
I don’t know how say this gently but your mistake was getting duped into believing you NEEDED debt to start / buy / run your business….


Link Posted: 7/4/2010 9:10:09 AM EDT
[#5]
And you know what's coming next? The "successful" banks are going to be forced to pay for Fannie and Freddie's bad loans - the costs of which they'll pass right on to us, the consumer.

There's a thread going on (again!), asking "When's the revolution going to start?" and the consensus seems to be that things are just fine and there's nothing to worry about!

I tend to think more and more of these personal SHTF scenarios are going to be spawned - until they're the norm & critical mass is achieved. Then, all bets are off.


And to answer your question, OP: yes! I think it's all intentional and geared toward the destruction of the American entrepreneur, in particular and capitalism, in general. And the S's really gonna' HTF when enough people are hurting badly enough to feel they've nothing left to lose. I just pray that (after whatever follows that nightmare) we can undo what's being done and return to some semblance of the United States we once knew . . . and loved.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 9:10:49 AM EDT
[#6]
My last employer, a large company, employing thousands, was taken down
by the exact same banking tactics that you described.  So I understand
your frustration and anger very well.




"BOA knew exactly how much cash we had on hand both business and
personally due to the audit, and they demanded it all, which turned out
to be 60% of the total amount owed; BOA took it and ran.
"
Regarding the above quoted sentence: Are you saying that BOA "forgave" 40% of your loan, and wrote it off?
If so, you should have realized that the IRS would come looking for their cut.  That's been the established practice for as long as I can remember.  
I'm not saying it's right, but you shouldn't let it get you down.   Try to concentrate on the fact that your BOA debt is wiped clean.  
We are all scared and horrified by what is happening to this country, but you cannot let the bastards get you down.  
We are defined by how we respond to adversity.
Happy Independence Day!
 
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 9:12:06 AM EDT
[#7]
"This 4th of July I’m reflecting on how a free nation turned into an organized crime ring designed to suck every last dollar out of the self-employed. I’m starting to believe that this is an actual strategy that is designed to enslave the American public into complete dependence on the government and the corporations that fund their political ambitions. "


I've been pointing this out here for, what, almost 2 years, but few pay any attention.

Link Posted: 7/4/2010 9:17:13 AM EDT
[#8]
When I started my successful biz many years ago I devised two important common sense sayings:

"Never let a bank get you over a barrel"

and,

"Be your own bank"

The banksters never were fond of me telling them these 'sayings'... [Not that I didn't borrow for buildings and airplanes, but I was always in control of the finances, not them]

Folks who have debt now and are 'over-extended' are in for a world of hurt.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 9:33:41 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
My prayers go out to the OP, but I can not agree with Ranchhand365 enough; cash is the ONLY way to go with anything: businesses, purchases of any kind, etc... The borrower is slave to the lender: stop the borrowing and you stop the slaving to the lender. That is the only way I live now, and I will NEVER go back to taking out a loan, even for a house (that is why I am renting now); my families financial security is too important to risk otherwise.

Good luck to you sir.

Quoted:
I don’t know how say this gently but your mistake was getting duped into believing you NEEDED debt to start / buy / run your business….





I hate to be the bearer of bad news, as your utopian outlook is nice if you are running a small store selling sundry goods, or have a purely service oriented business  (CPA, lawyer, etc.)  ––- but credit is a fact of life in many businesses, and can be the difference between making it or breaking it .   It is obviously a double edged sword though .

      My brother runs  a roofing supply company  If a hail storm strikes an area, it would be near impossible to keep up with the demand for materials without a strong credit line.  He buys millions of dollars worth of material on credit and in turn extends credit to his customers (contractors) , who usuually get paid when the job is done,  and it is optimistic to think a guy could just "drive a $500 truck" for a couple of years while he/she builds up a million dollar inventory with anything, whether it is a building supply company or a small vitamin shop.

               I'll pick on  "vitamin shop guy" for my second example, because i have seen many of these guys open up a shop in a strip mall with some shelves, a few thousand dollars in inventory and a dream.     I will stop by because i hope one day i will find that rare individual who has the chops to do it the right way,  but typically limited inventory means limited choices  and the same old song and dance ––- "just let me know what you want and i can get it for you in 2 days !"   ––––-    Sorry guy,  i have a computer and can do that myself,  i go to a retail store for instant gratification and/or because i need it today.     Vitamin Shop Guy  is usually out of business and back working the front desk at the gym within 3 months, only now he has depleted 2 years of savings and is teetering on the edge of divorce,  when it , sadly, would have been better off putting those resources towards financing a GNC franchise


The IRS –––– mmmmmm ––- i'm not even going to go there.   They are as bad as the worst credit card companies.     Make an arrangement with them to pay off,  say 5k –– make payments for 3 years, and you will still owe them $4800 (just an analogy - but you get the idea)   ––––––-   Sometimes, i'd like to just move to a Canadian wilderness for a few years , then come back with a fresh start


Link Posted: 7/4/2010 9:38:34 AM EDT
[#10]
Bank of AmeriKa is more like it!  Fuck those assholes!!!
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 9:40:00 AM EDT
[#11]
I completely understand and respect what your guys are saying about CASH ONLY, that’s my motto as well and society would not be in this predicament if everyone followed that; but they don’t..   Cash only is a quaint and naive concept in the realm of serious business.     Actually I started my business with cash as well.    My loan was used to cover accounts receivable only.

I’m in technical services, no one operates with cash, and I must extend credit which means that I must have credit lines to extend.  Also when your competitors are all operating with large credit line it’s nearly impossible to compete without one as they continually outspend you.  

I suppose you can say that I should have had cash to cover credit lines too but conducting your business with real money while everyone else is operating with monopoly money is not without serious risk as well.

If you have enough money to operate a busienss in cash, you have enough money to retire too - and for the sake of your family, please do!
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 9:53:31 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, as your utopian outlook is nice if you are running a small store selling sundry goods, or have a purely service oriented business  (CPA, lawyer, etc.)  ––- but credit is a fact of life in many businesses, and can be the difference between making it or breaking it .  



Your assumption totally fails in my case. My company designs and manufactures aerospace products. We have a thermal vacuum chamber, cutting edge test equipment, software, injection molds, etc. All paid for with cash. Yes, we are small compared to our competitors but like it that way. We have full control and can ‘turn on dime’ if needed to capture new business opportunities.

It is your brother’s choice to make the risk (debt) to reward gamble. He could operate on all cash if he wanted too. Someday, it might bite him in the ass.

Please don’t assume that a zero debt policy is limited to an Amway business….


Link Posted: 7/4/2010 10:18:12 AM EDT
[#13]
What BoA is doing sounds very much like how the stock market crashed in '29.  Then, the margins were called in.  Many could not pay the margins and lost their fortune.  The nation tailspun into a depression.  It was engineered much like the housing bubble was and now the raping of small businesses like yours.  Gerald Celente is right in that we are going to go into the Greatest Depression.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 10:53:34 AM EDT
[#14]
yet another reason to keep a fair sum of your wealth in PMs and cash(in a pvc pipe burried somewhere) far outside of any banking institution...

options, it's really nice to have them...

ETA: i'm not advocating hiding your income from the gov't and not paying taxes on it, i would suggest paying taxes on it and then hiding at least 10% it. hell most of us here stockpile bullets, beans, bandaids, water, etc. etc. etc. and you don't use a bank to store those things, why would you not keep some financial resources stashed away incase SHTF?..

K.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 11:05:54 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, as your utopian outlook is nice if you are running a small store selling sundry goods, or have a purely service oriented business  (CPA, lawyer, etc.)  ––- but credit is a fact of life in many businesses, and can be the difference between making it or breaking it .  



Your assumption totally fails in my case. My company designs and manufactures aerospace products. We have a thermal vacuum chamber, cutting edge test equipment, software, injection molds, etc. All paid for with cash. Yes, we are small compared to our competitors but like it that way. We have full control and can ‘turn on dime’ if needed to capture new business opportunities.

It is your brother’s choice to make the risk (debt) to reward gamble. He could operate on all cash if he wanted too. Someday, it might bite him in the ass.

Please don’t assume that a zero debt policy is limited to an Amway business….




Exactly RH. We had all kinds of high tech equipment in an RF microwave multi-mil biz, including for examp a high vac furnace to heat treat alloys and advanced HP T&M equip, to name a few.

Most items bought used and always paid for with cash. Started from scratch with almost nothing.

Of course over the years, we were always survivors when other competitor's went out of biz.

This time around though, the difficulties businesses face are of several orders greater, even to the extreme of traitors wanting to destroy them, and it looks like they most certainly will.

Link Posted: 7/4/2010 11:13:02 AM EDT
[#16]
Look at the San Joaquin Valley situation, that I've posted abt here before.

The farmers of this HUGE and rich ag area, one of the largest in the US, has had it's irrigation water cut off by the envirowackos for reason of a tiny fish, a Smelt.

The farmers are losing their land, like in the Great depression 1.

But in this 'ENGINEERED' Great Depression 2, just like in GD-1, the Big Boyz are buying the rich land.

When they and their political friends have acquired enough of it, guess what?

The water will be turned back on, the rich will get richer at OUR expense and the previous landowners there will be looking around with their dick in their hands wondering what happened to them.

Link Posted: 7/4/2010 11:16:53 AM EDT
[#17]
My Son and I own a small specialty food company.  We manufacture and distribute products to retail outlets and restaurants.

4 years ago, our City occupational license was $125/year.  Now it is pushing $600/year.
My license to manufacture a food product used to be $85/year.  Now that state license is over $800
Rent for my small facility used to be $400/month.  Now it is $950/month
Workman's Comp insurance premiums are  a disgrace
Unemployment taxes, for a two man operation that we own, went from being based on the first $5000 of yearly compensation to I believe the first $8500 now.  Being owners, we can't collect of course, so it is just another tax.
IRS is just plain killing us on the corporate taxes and personal taxes
State is killing us on intangible taxes, business license, taxes
City owned utilities are raping us on energy costs
City wants $1000 fire protection assessment now.

The list goes on and on.  We need to expand, and we need to hire at least one employee.  If we do though, we can't get a bank loan, even though our credit is top rated.  We can't afford the social security taxes, unemployment taxes and workman's comp on an employee.

We wind up just treading water...................
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 12:01:17 PM EDT
[#18]
I'm very sorry to hear that. Some business are getting killed.

You can't fend them all off, you'll get bitten sooner or later and it will have the better of you.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7729/theworldisaplayground.jpg



Link Posted: 7/4/2010 1:33:19 PM EDT
[#19]
I know what your going through man. I'm starting over from losing my ass in a business. I bought into a bread route and it was going well until the company i was work with/for  started taking more money and giving less product for the shelves. And making shaddy sales deals with the stores we serviced. What that means is they  would sell to the stores at a reduced price and then charge me the regular wholesale price. And i would take the loss when i took the product in store.

Then the ax fell when they cut routes in their areas and combined them into larger routes. I had already lost my ass and took credit hits trying to get by. So that means i couldn't get a loan to pay for the larger route.

So i more or less was laid off and ended up haveing to sell everything i had of value to pay for any bills i had. Took a huge credit hit from being late and all that good stuff..
Hell the hit is so bad its like i filed bankruptcy without the charged off debt. lol. I should have went that route but was to proud and had to pay it off myself.

So now im working PT in a grocery store because its the only job i could find. ( i used to be a grocery Store manger before my bright idea to have to be a vendor)  and most places wouldn't even give me a shot because they said i was over qualified for the jobs they had open.  I got lucky that a former SM friend of mine had an opening and i got that job.     I'm fine though i'll start over and be better off learn from mistakes.  Cash is king and thats all i will ever use.   I'm only 31 so i figure im still young enough to change my life.    Thank god i had preps though because it kept me fed for just about 6 months. And i had cash reserves but those went pretty quick when you had everyone coming at ya.


I blame myself and no one else.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 1:51:19 PM EDT
[#20]
The sh!t BOA was pulling during TARP was straight up criminal. Even though I am not a business man I was so disgusted with BOA I closed my accounts and changed over to another bank not involved in TARP.

cml2501 hang in there, tough times don't last. America will do a course correction the same as we did in 1980 with Reagan
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 1:56:52 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
The sh!t BOA was pulling during TARP was straight up criminal. Even though I am not a business man I was so disgusted with BOA I closed my accounts and changed over to another bank not involved in TARP.

cml2501 hang in there, tough times don't last. America will do a course correction the same as we did in 1980 with Reagan



Doubtful.

During Reagan's time we still had reasonable incomes and jobs creation.

That's over.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 2:02:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Thanks for the well wishes guys, I’ve read every post.  

Luckily I am prepared for this, but I probably won’t be going into my preps anymore since the IRS will probably steal them if I do!

I’m not nearly as optimistic as some of you, but I appreciate your optimism and pray that you are right, and that I’m wrong.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 2:11:53 PM EDT
[#23]
I also refinanced my home just to be rid of BoA.... well that and I got a better rate....but still I didn't want anything to do with them after they bought my  original bank and took all that TARP money.

Link Posted: 7/4/2010 2:21:26 PM EDT
[#24]
bank can loan money 9 times to every dollar.

So if the bank cries about charging 4% for home loans... they are crying over charging 4*9 percent (36%) to the regular joes.

I have friends that have small companies that are now looking to sell or sell their assests due to the new laws.  They are looking for regular jobs now.

SHTF is going to hit EVERYONE.   America is changing.   We will go bankrupt for importing everything and having no labor force.  One thing Marx had right is that a country NEEDS a labor force.  

When SHTF, I have faith that humanity will correct the mistakes and not let the .00001% of the population win.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 2:38:58 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
bank can loan money 9 times to every dollar.


heh thats the old rules, lately they have been loaning up to 40x
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 2:46:44 PM EDT
[#26]
The BoA stories are so common that I wonder why they haven't moderated their approach to stave off the bad press their reputation  is getting.

I dumped a Vias card I had had for years after they bought out the issuing bank and began being jerks.

OP, did you have no other banking options once BoA bought out your old bankers?
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 4:06:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
bank can loan money 9 times to every dollar.


heh thats the old rules, lately they have been loaning up to 40x


are you kidding me?  Wow.

If someone steal from a person, then that someone is a theif.  If someone forms a bank and steal from millions of people through scams and fake money, that someone gets a bonus at the end of the year.

Link Posted: 7/4/2010 4:12:17 PM EDT
[#28]
To the OP, sorry to hear of your trouble, and I hope things get better for you.

Our family business has had debt only when my father was purchasing it from the previous owner (the previous owner held the loan, not a bank).  I can still remember 30 years ago riding my bike to the owner's widows house across town to deliver the check (dad wanted to save the postage ).  Things were tight for us, but it was our choice as a family.  We have never had bank debt.  20 years ago dad borrowed about 15% from family employees when he wanted to expand on the business.  The remaining 85% was paid for in cash.  We swept up the construction dirt each day so the carpenters could work the full day and not spend their (expensive) time in cleaning up.  Today we pay for everything in cash.  We have never had a bank loan for anything.  It can be done.  

Link Posted: 7/4/2010 4:37:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Sorry to hear about your situation OP.  Keep your head up, and start planning your next moves.

We lost everything (biz, house, cars, ATV's, etc.) about two years ago.  I had the business 14 years.  We sold off what we could to survive.  Things will get better.  The IRS will work with you.  I wouldn't go it alone with them though.  A tax lawyer may be a GREAT expense to incurr, for the money they can save you with the feds.

Good luck to you.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 4:58:05 PM EDT
[#30]
I wouldn't have paid them. In all honesty, they walk away from bad debt every fucking day. Why should I not run my business by their rules? Fuck 'em, because they will FUCK YOU.

I have limited credit left as I have tried to pay off what I could. I have canceled everything I could, those that are left WILL not get a fucking dime if I can't pay them. I won't feel bad about it either. I don't want to be that way about my debt, but they changed the rules so I will play by them.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 5:07:48 PM EDT
[#31]
CML,

You should declare bankruptcy if you can't keep your business going.  It's a more structured process for negotiating your debt settlements, in your present financial circumstance.  Trying to take on your creditors one at a time is a recipe for disaster; better to get them all in the same room with your bankruptcy attorney.  Plus, it will give you a small homestead exemption, partially protecting your stake in your house ($15,000).
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 6:01:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Im sorry that this has happened to you. I have never run a buisness so im not gonna comment on debt vs cash thing other than to say I think alot of folks are going to be changeing their ways of doing buisness and debt is going to be somthing that folks will try and avoid. Maybe they will grow slower, maybe they will stay smaller.......or maybe they will start small build their cash reserves and as they expand with cash they will take off......kind of like if you buy a rental house with cash, you take the rent and the money you were saving to buy the first house....bank it and buy your second....repeat a few times and you hit the big leauge without having to sweat about mortgages.......Again im sorry this has happened to you
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 7:12:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 7:12:40 PM EDT
[#34]
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 7:55:12 PM EDT
[#35]
I gotta wonder what you guys who start businesses with "almost nothing" consider that to be.  I started my business with $500 twelve years ago and for awhile it worked out.  

Then I found out that, to move to the "big time" and compete for the contracts that were worth a damn, the customers expected terms.  The other guys would give them net 30, for instance, why wouldn't I?  Didn't I want their business?

By the same token, the warranty work I do for the big houses ranges from Net 21 to Net whenever.  What, I'm not a businessman?  I can't hold out for a couple of days for my money?  What am I, a piker?

Strangely, the utility companies, the telephone companies, the landlord–– they all want their money right away, chop chop, or there are penalties.  You go 30 days long on your power bill, that shows up on your credit report.  And don't get me started on suppliers.  Sure they'll give you terms.  For an added premium.

The "almost nothing" I'd have had to start with in order to compete even in a shithole little burg like this would have been in the high five figures, if not six or seven.  Call me a skinflint, but anything much into five figures loses it's "almost nothing" smell.

And now, with the way things are pulling in, I'll call it good if I can even survive without having to take a part time job.  Far from saving for upgrades, I'm working sixty or seventy hour weeks without pay, just to keep the bills paid.  Meanwhile, the contracts are either drying up, or are expecting more and more work for less and less compensation.  I've seen before where that particular spiral leads.

OP, you have my sympathy, and my understanding.  BoA are scum, and have been for many, many years.  And with each passing day, the odds that they're scum unrelated to the scum in office who're funneling money to them and encouraging their practices are dwindling.

I grew up on the south side of Chicago, and I know a racket when it hits me in the knees with a ball bat.
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 8:04:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
My Son and I own a small specialty food company.  We manufacture and distribute products to retail outlets and restaurants.

4 years ago, our City occupational license was $125/year.  Now it is pushing $600/year.
My license to manufacture a food product used to be $85/year.  Now that state license is over $800
Rent for my small facility used to be $400/month.  Now it is $950/month
Workman's Comp insurance premiums are  a disgrace
Unemployment taxes, for a two man operation that we own, went from being based on the first $5000 of yearly compensation to I believe the first $8500 now.  Being owners, we can't collect of course, so it is just another tax.
IRS is just plain killing us on the corporate taxes and personal taxes
State is killing us on intangible taxes, business license, taxes
City owned utilities are raping us on energy costs
City wants $1000 fire protection assessment now.

The list goes on and on.  We need to expand, and we need to hire at least one employee.  If we do though, we can't get a bank loan, even though our credit is top rated.  We can't afford the social security taxes, unemployment taxes and workman's comp on an employee.

We wind up just treading water...................


I hate to say it, but you might be better off hiring an illegal immigrant...   Just saying...
Link Posted: 7/4/2010 9:45:15 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
I gotta wonder what you guys who start businesses with "almost nothing" consider that to be.  I started my business with $500 twelve years ago and for awhile it worked out.  

Then I found out that, to move to the "big time" and compete for the contracts that were worth a damn, the customers expected terms.  The other guys would give them net 30, for instance, why wouldn't I?  Didn't I want their business?

By the same token, the warranty work I do for the big houses ranges from Net 21 to Net whenever.  What, I'm not a businessman?  I can't hold out for a couple of days for my money?  What am I, a piker?

.


You said a mouthfull–––– i was attempting to explain that in my earlier post in this thread too.     Being debt free is awesome,  but in many businesses,  its your  customers  AND your competition that sets the  bar you need to be ready to hurdle.      
   It really depends on a person's field of play a little bit.        I like  the guy who responded to me on the previous page  with the Aerospace business who is working on cash and is flexible with his business model –– i have a good friend who recently purchased a CNC machine and is starting to get some contracts in the motorcycle parts business  (his day job is as an aerospace rep, and we were A&P's together many years ago)  


        Sometimes, situations happen where you need to supply a couple of mil in product in a month, and your customers need "30 days" or :2 weeks" or whatever,   and if you are not liquid and you dont believe in credit,  then they will go someplace else

Link Posted: 7/5/2010 12:08:01 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The sh!t BOA was pulling during TARP was straight up criminal. Even though I am not a business man I was so disgusted with BOA I closed my accounts and changed over to another bank not involved in TARP.

cml2501 hang in there, tough times don't last. America will do a course correction the same as we did in 1980 with Reagan



Doubtful.

During Reagan's time we still had reasonable incomes and jobs creation.

That's over.


Meh, that's nothing a Good Old Fashioned War won't fix. If Saudi Arabia is scared enough about losing money that the grant the @#$%ing Jews (Go Israel!) overflight rights to bomb Iran back to the stone age, it's going to happen. We will use this opportunity to lay smack on enough people that we reestablish the primacy we enjoyed after WW2 when everyone was broke and couldn't project power. It will be an opportune time to consolidate natural resources in the area, but China will have to be dealt with at some point.
Link Posted: 7/5/2010 5:31:39 AM EDT
[#39]
Again, thank you guys very much for the well wishes, and commiseration.  

Link Posted: 7/5/2010 6:30:40 AM EDT
[#40]
IMO credit is a tool that can increase growth of a business, but just like any other tool it can wreak havoc if pushed to its' limits. I'm self employed but my business requires specific-use properties with no rental options available. I have to borrow to purchase these properties, or I wouldn't be in the business.  I keep my ratios of debt to income at manageable levels and a stash of cash enabling me to survive with zero cash flow for a year or more. I do look forward to the day my last loan is paid off- five yrs, nine months, and six days from now. I just hope I can make it before things do go to complete shit.

I have an acquaintance of mine who has a similar story of how a local bank contributed to his downfall.  He was a developer, focusing on inexpensive first homes in the low 100's. Last year, the market had slowed. He wasn't making much, but his business was still cash flowing. Then, the bank that he dealt with foreclosed on a neighboring subdivision and slashed home prices there to below his cost of construction. His lender essentially became his cut-throat competition. He met with the bank and tried to explain the dilemma ,but they basically said "we gotta do what we gotta do".  He burned through his cash trying to weather this and made it another six months or so before the well finally ran dry. His cash flow problems in his developer business caused a cascade effect on his side business, and he lost that one too.  In two years he's gone from being pretty affluent  to doing odd improvement jobs in an effort to keep the power on.  Quite a wake up call for me to what can happen when things go bad.  

I have another friend that's taken a hit.  He made some risky trades during the crash that didn't pan out, and his Florida property value tumbled. The guy is in his late forties and is fighting to keep his house.  Both gave me the same advice: don't burn through all your cash trying to make bank payments, recognize the problem early and take aggressive action while you can still afford a lawyer.
Link Posted: 7/5/2010 6:40:32 AM EDT
[#41]
So, there is one more piece to this puzzle that I failed to mention,  but it addresses some points you guys have brought up.

I had a partner in all this, a long time friend since our late teen years.

The dumb-ass was living pay-check to paycheck off the business, and while I didn’t pay myself when cash was low, he always did.  Late in 2009 he signed a corporate contract over to himself (our largest client) and decided he was better off keeping all the money for himself.    

We are a corporation and this is known as a “breach of Fiduciary duty”.  Operating as an officer in a corporation then using the corporation’s position for personal gain is illegal.

Once we ran into the problems with the bank and the IRS I was advised that bankruptcy was my best option.  However I couldn’t do this without getting my partner in some serious trouble.  You know how lawyers are, you hire them, then you lose control of the situation and the sharks begin to feed.   The lawyers were salivating over all sorts of actions and lawsuits against my partner and the client involved.

I was an idiot for letting my “feelings” on this guy and his family cloud my better judgment.
I got screwed on so many levels.  I simply don’t think I’m enough of an asshole to succeed in this system.  
Link Posted: 7/5/2010 7:41:41 AM EDT
[#42]
Well man you gotta look at it. Its either going to be you or him/them.  And at this time you gotta look out for you and your family.  If your friend was dumb enough to put himself into that kinda shit. then he has to get himself out.    

If i could do it all over again i would have filed Bankruptcy.  It would have saved me a lot of $ and court dates.  And in the end it put me in the same boat just alot more $ spent and things sold off than i would have had to if i just filed chapter 7/13/11 or whatever.
Link Posted: 7/5/2010 7:45:45 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
I simply don’t think I’m enough of an asshole to succeed in this system.  


You are not alone in this. I know two other people (one a good friend and one a my next door neighbor) that were both screwed by FAMILY members. In both cases the family member embezzled funds from the business, ultimately destroying them. Stealing from your dad / brother is pretty damn low...

To the guy that is just getting by on 60-70 hrs a week – hang in there…
I worked the Wal-Mart night shift during the startup of biz #3 to get the medical insurance so we could have some kids. Factoring in the medical expenses of childbirth, I ended up making a good $15-20 / hr – not bad for the early 90’s. The real eye opener at Wally World was the way customers treat the ‘associates’. A good portion of them assumed that you are a stupid loser. I’d say 10-20% of the workers had a meaningful college degree, were business owners, etc., and were in some kind of a transition period.
Link Posted: 7/5/2010 9:02:09 AM EDT
[#44]

I have a feeling that this forum will be FILLED with stories like this as we progress past the 2011 event horizon.

Eventually, someone is going to lose everything they had to live for and instead of offing themselves quietly they are going to decide to take a few folks with them.

OP, I know you feel low right now, the world is on your back, bankers and taxmen lurking behind every corner ready to ambush you with another round of bad news... but know that without failure, there would be no metric for success. Take the multiple lessons you learned from this venture and put them to good use. You have a leg up on most of society already, you are a businessman, not just a consumer like so many. Many of the greatest and most famous people on earth or in history failed more than the succeeded, it only takes one great idea, cultivated in the right circumstances and with the needed passion to blossom into your greatest triumph.

NEVER let the fear of what happened in this go around keep you from pursuing your dreams, instead learn from it, grow from it, and succeed in spite of it.

We are a nation of great men, forefathered by great men, driven to thrive in harsh and unrelenting times. Keep your head high, at least you tried, at most you will try again and succeed.
Link Posted: 7/5/2010 12:27:33 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:

I have a feeling that this forum will be FILLED with stories like this as we progress past the 2011 event horizon.

Eventually, someone is going to lose everything they had to live for and instead of offing themselves quietly they are going to decide to take a few folks with them.

OP, I know you feel low right now, the world is on your back, bankers and taxmen lurking behind every corner ready to ambush you with another round of bad news... but know that without failure, there would be no metric for success. Take the multiple lessons you learned from this venture and put them to good use. You have a leg up on most of society already, you are a businessman, not just a consumer like so many. Many of the greatest and most famous people on earth or in history failed more than the succeeded, it only takes one great idea, cultivated in the right circumstances and with the needed passion to blossom into your greatest triumph.

NEVER let the fear of what happened in this go around keep you from pursuing your dreams, instead learn from it, grow from it, and succeed in spite of it.

We are a nation of great men, forefathered by great men, driven to thrive in harsh and unrelenting times. Keep your head high, at least you tried, at most you will try again and succeed.


Wow.  If I weren't married, I'd ask you out.  And..............I'm a guy!    J/K  

OP, your skill as a businessman will not be wasted.

Great advice.

Link Posted: 7/5/2010 1:49:32 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:

I have a feeling that this forum will be FILLED with stories like this as we progress past the 2011 event horizon.

Eventually, someone is going to lose everything they had to live for and instead of offing themselves quietly they are going to decide to take a few folks with them.

OP, I know you feel low right now, the world is on your back, bankers and taxmen lurking behind every corner ready to ambush you with another round of bad news... but know that without failure, there would be no metric for success. Take the multiple lessons you learned from this venture and put them to good use. You have a leg up on most of society already, you are a businessman, not just a consumer like so many. Many of the greatest and most famous people on earth or in history failed more than the succeeded, it only takes one great idea, cultivated in the right circumstances and with the needed passion to blossom into your greatest triumph.

NEVER let the fear of what happened in this go around keep you from pursuing your dreams, instead learn from it, grow from it, and succeed in spite of it.

We are a nation of great men, forefathered by great men, driven to thrive in harsh and unrelenting times. Keep your head high, at least you tried, at most you will try again and succeed.


I think the OP has been in his business for many years.  What you said, helps the single people without a family to worry about.   To me, what the OP was talking about.. Is a system that worked for him but then the system turned around and attacked him.  Many small operations have been falling due to the new system.  From the local level to the federal level.  Look at what happened to many of the local farmers.  The system was working and then it attack them.  Slowly this country will will destroy the small business sector.  All is going to be left is small business doing unethical behavioral to make a living.  I.E not reporting earnings/paying taxes, hiring illegals, not employing people full time, etc.  

My friend's subdivision and mine had many people who owned small businesses.. now the same people are selling their houses or going into foreclosure.
Link Posted: 7/5/2010 2:42:45 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:

I have a feeling that this forum will be FILLED with stories like this as we progress past the 2011 event horizon.

Eventually, someone is going to lose everything they had to live for and instead of offing themselves quietly they are going to decide to take a few folks with them.



Eventually?  Haven't we recently heard a story of a guy flying his plane into a building down in Texas for this very reason?

Link Posted: 7/5/2010 3:59:11 PM EDT
[#48]
Op.  I am very sorry that BOA did this to you and your family.  I have two accounts with them that I will close out by the end of the week.
Link Posted: 7/5/2010 4:50:27 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:

I have a feeling that this forum will be FILLED with stories like this as we progress past the 2011 event horizon.

Eventually, someone is going to lose everything they had to live for and instead of offing themselves quietly they are going to decide to take a few folks with them.



Eventually?  Haven't we recently heard a story of a guy flying his plane into a building down in Texas for this very reason?



I beleive those were IRS offices as well...
Link Posted: 7/5/2010 5:26:44 PM EDT
[#50]
This is why I dropped BOA.  I had them for years and never had any problems.  Suddenly, they come and tell me that they're raising my rate from 3% to 19%.  As soon as they did that, I immediately dropped the account.  That was a few months ago and I'm still not sure if my account is closed.
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