User Panel
Posted: 10/10/2009 6:21:53 PM EDT
OK I have a T/C encore in 223 rem and an AR15. I'm assuming the AR15 is cut for 5.56 because it's a milspec M4 barrel with a pinned f/h to take it over 16" I load 223 for the T/C and neck size only. the brass drops fine into the T/C but won't chamber in the AR. I always thought military chambers were cut a bit looser than civilian ones were because of reliable feeding in mud etc. any one got any ideas what the difference is except fuck obama?
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Some ARs still have .223 chambers (I think DPMS does?), do you have a Wylde chamber in the TC?
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Quoted:
Some ARs still have .223 chambers (I think DPMS does?), do you have a Wylde chamber in the TC? I don't know, I would think it would say so on the barrel. What is the different between the wylde and a stock 223? |
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Full length sizing may help this.
Also make sure the case length is under max. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Some ARs still have .223 chambers (I think DPMS does?), do you have a Wylde chamber in the TC? I don't know, I would think it would say so on the barrel. What is the different between the wylde and a stock 223? .223 chambers are tighter than 5.56, and Wylde is in between somewhere. Many match ARs seem to use Wylde, it might cross over to bolt guns/single shots too but I have no idea. If your brass has been fire-formed to a Wylde chamber you might have issues in some .223 barrels from what I understand. ETA: This is complete speculation on my part, I don't know a thing about reloading but have read about people having trouble with 5.56 to .223, don't know if Wylde is enough difference to matter. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me in a very pleasant manor |
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A .223 chamber has a shorter throate than one in 5.56mm. And just because they of your guns are chambered for the "same" round doesn't mean their chambers were cut with the same reamer. Thus you'll get enough differences that a cartridge neck sized for one won't chamber in the other. This is normal. Even with guns from the same manufacturer/model/caliber.
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Quoted: If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me in a very pleasant manor That cracked me up. |
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Quoted:
If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me in a very pleasant manor That cracked me up. yeah, cause most posters in GD are known for their civility |
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Get a full leangth die and try that bolt guns only need a neck resizer and it always be used in the same gun. semi auto generally need a full lenght die
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Here's a giggler.
I've got a DPMS upper labeled .223. I've shot a metric assload of 5.56 ammo through it, mostly SA, then a bunch of LC XM193. It didn't blow up. Am I going to hell? Should I post a poll? |
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Here's a giggler. I've got a DPMS upper labeled .223. I've shot a metric assload of 5.56 ammo through it, mostly SA, then a bunch of LC XM193. It didn't blow up. Am I going to hell? Should I post a poll? I think my DPMS is marked .223 also and I have shot .223 of several brands and some 5.56 xm-193 I think no problems. |
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Get a full leangth die and try that bolt guns only need a neck resizer and it always be used in the same gun. semi auto generally need a full lenght die yeah I was trying to avoid doing that due to the shitty f/l resizer I have. I guess I'll have spend some money on a decent one |
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What bullets are you loading for the T/C? What's the history on the AR, has it accepted factory loads or has it had trouble chambering those too?
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EVERYTHING SHALL BE ANSWERED BY THE AMMO ORACLE!!! Q. How can I tell if a round is SAAMI, US military, or 5.56 NATO Mil-Spec? In the 1950's, the US military adopted the metric system of measurement and uses metric measurements to describe ammo. However, the US commercial ammo market typically used the English "caliber" measurements when describing ammo. "Caliber" is a shorthand way of saying "hundredths (or thousandths) of an inch." For example, a fifty caliber projectile is approximately fifty one-hundredths (.50) of an inch and a 357 caliber projectile is approximately three-hundred and fifty-seven thousandths (.357) of an inch. Dimensionally, 5.56 and .223 ammo are identical, though military 5.56 ammo is typically loaded to higher pressures and velocities than commercial ammo and may, in guns with extremely tight "match" .223 chambers, be unsafe to fire. The chambers for .223 and 5.56 weapons are not the same either. Though the AR15 design provides an extremely strong action, high pressure signs on the brass and primers, extraction failures and cycling problems may be seen when firing hot 5.56 ammo in .223-chambered rifles. Military M16s and AR15s from Colt, Bushmaster, FN, DPMS, and some others, have the M16-spec chamber and should have no trouble firing hot 5.56 ammunition. Military M16s have slightly more headspace and have a longer throat area, compared to the SAAMI .223 chamber spec, which was originally designed for bolt-action rifles. Commercial SAAMI-specification .223 chambers have a much shorter throat or leade and less freebore than the military chamber. Shooting 5.56 Mil-Spec ammo in a SAAMI-specification chamber can increase pressure dramatically, up to an additional 15,000 psi or more. The military chamber is often referred to as a "5.56 NATO" chamber, as that is what is usually stamped on military barrels. Some commercial AR manufacturers use the tighter ".223" (i.e., SAAMI-spec and often labeled ".223" or ".223 Remington") chamber, which provides for increased accuracy but, in self-loading rifles, less cycling reliability, especially with hot-loaded military ammo. A few AR manufacturers use an in-between chamber spec, such as the Wylde chamber. Many mis-mark their barrels too, which further complicates things. You can generally tell what sort of chamber you are dealing with by the markings, if any, on the barrel, but always check with the manufacturer to be sure. Typical Colt Mil-Spec-type markings: C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 Typical Bushmaster markings: B MP 5.56 NATO 1/9 HBAR DPMS marks their barrels ".223", though they actually have 5.56 chambers. Olympic Arms marks their barrels with "556", with some additionally marked "SS" or "SUM." This marking is used on all barrels, even older barrels that used .223 chambers and current target models that also use .223 chambers. Non-target barrels made since 2001 should have 5.56 chambers. Armalite typically doesn't mark their barrels. A2 and A4 models had .223 chambers until mid-2001, and have used 5.56 chambers since. The (t) models use .223 match chambers. Rock River Arms uses the Wylde chamber specs on most rifles, and does not mark their barrels. Most other AR manufacturers' barrels are unmarked, and chamber dimensions are unknown. Opinion: In general it is a bad idea to attempt to fire 5.56 rounds (e.g., M193, M855) in .223 chambers, particularly with older rifles. Fact: SAAMI specifically warns against the use of 5.56mm ammo in .223 chambers. The .223 SAAMI specification was originally made with bolt rifles in mind. 5.56 v. .223 Remington specification. |
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My Rem Mod 700 in .223 Rem does not like 5.56 and has hard ejection problems,I don't use it!
Bob |
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I'd be sure and check the receiver prior to firing. I bought an upper recently from a well known mfr, requested 5.56 and when I sent it to my gunsmith for some customization he found it was actually .223. He was able to modify it so no big deal. Being my first AR - why would anyone want a .223 cut chamber anyway? My understanding is a 5.56 chamber will fire both but a .223 won't fire 5.56. What am I missing? |
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Quoted: Jeez. Lot's of wizdom in this thread. So give us the answer... |
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Quoted: 5.56 in .223 = risk of kaboom (higher pressure)Quoted: Quoted: Some ARs still have .223 chambers (I think DPMS does?), do you have a Wylde chamber in the TC? I don't know, I would think it would say so on the barrel. What is the different between the wylde and a stock 223? .223 chambers are tighter than 5.56, and Wylde is in between somewhere. Many match ARs seem to use Wylde, it might cross over to bolt guns/single shots too but I have no idea. If your brass has been fire-formed to a Wylde chamber you might have issues in some .223 barrels from what I understand. ETA: This is complete speculation on my part, I don't know a thing about reloading but have read about people having trouble with 5.56 to .223, don't know if Wylde is enough difference to matter. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me in a very pleasant manor .223 in 5.56 chamber = slightly degraded accuracy |
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The ammo oracle seems only to address the fit of 5.56 in .223 barrels, not vice versa.
Now I am curious as to what the reason is. TAG |
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My Rem Mod 700 in .223 Rem does not like 5.56 and has hard ejection problems,I don't use it! Bob Same here. I use Dillon .223 dies and check it all in a .223 case gage. |
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The problem lies in that he neck sized only.
Meaning that his brass expanded to the size of the chamber in the Encore. Unless the Encore and the AR chambers are the same, brass that has been neck sized only is only going to work in that Encore and only THAT Encore. It is reccomended that brass be full length resized when being used in a semi auto weapon because it will resize the entire case and not just the neck like he has been doing. |
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What bullets are you loading for the T/C? What's the history on the AR, has it accepted factory loads or has it had trouble chambering those too? 55 gr hornady A-max bullets for the T/C loads and the AR15 runs OK with anything including wolf |
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If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me in a very pleasant manor You brought this on yerself....... Would you like to be corrected in a large spanish manor, or would you prefer an Italian one nestled in the heart of Tuscany??? |
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I remember asking DPMS about the chamber and they said the same thing the ammo oracle said, marked .223 but it's 5.56.
Shoot mostly 855 and no issues. DPMS Panther A2
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All the different types of chambers are cut the same. With a reamer. The dimensions may be different.
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Some ARs still have .223 chambers (I think DPMS does?), do you have a Wylde chamber in the TC? DPMS chambers are 5.56mm (and marked as such), except on their varminter rifles. From here; http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=306487 Says; Q: Is .223 the same as 5.56, can I shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber or vice versa? A: In short .223 is not the same as 5.56 in chambering - though the ammo dimensionally is identical. Yes you can shoot .223 in 5.56, no you should not shoot 5.56 in .223. For details and explainations why read the Ammo FAQ (above). Ammo FAQ; http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/ |
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I f/l resized some of the 223 brass from the T/C and it dropped right into the AR15 chamber with the bolt in battery. I guess the T/C chamber is cut looser than the 5.56 chamber in the AR15?
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http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/news/newsview.aspx?storyid=11
Law Enforcement News and Press Releases Details News and Press Releases .223 Rem VS 5.56mm Paul Nowak 5/4/2001 .223 Rem VS 5.56mm There are a lot of questions about these two cartridges. Many people think they are identical - merely different designations for commercial and military. The truth is that, although somewhat similar, they are not the same and you should know the differences before buying either cartridge. * The cartridge casings for both calibers have basically the same length and exterior dimensions. * The 5.56 round, loaded to Military Specification, typically has higher velocity and chamber pressure than the .223 Rem. * The 5.56 cartridge case may have thicker walls, and a thicker head, for extra strength. This better contains the higher chamber pressure. However, a thicker case reduces powder capacity, which is of concern to the reloader. * The 5.56mm and .223 Rem chambers are nearly identical. The difference is in the "Leade". Leade is defined as the portion of the barrel directly in front of the chamber where the rifling has been conically removed to allow room for the seated bullet. It is also more commonly known as the throat. Leade in a .223 Rem chamber is usually .085". In a 5.56mm chamber the leade is typically .162", or almost twice as much as in the 223 Rem chamber. * You can fire .223 Rem cartridges in 5.56mm chambers with this longer leade, but you will generally have a slight loss in accuracy and velocity over firing the .223 round in the chamber with the shorter leade it was designed for. * Problems may occur when firing the higher-pressure 5.56mm cartridge in a .223 chamber with its much shorter leade. It is generally known that shortening the leade can dramatically increase chamber pressure. In some cases, this higher pressure could result in primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads and gun functioning issues. * The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination. Before buying either of these two types of ammunition, always check your gun to find what caliber it is chambered for, then buy the appropriate ammunition. Most 5.56mm rounds made have full metal jacket bullets. Performance bullets - soft points, hollow points, Ballistic Silvertips, etc. - are loaded in .223 Rem cartridges. Firing a .223 Rem cartridge in a 5.56mm-chambered gun is safe and merely gives you slightly reduced velocity and accuracy. However we do not recommend, nor does SAAMI recommend, firing a 5.56mm cartridge in a gun chambered for the .223 Rem as the shorter leade can cause pressure-related problems. Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition East Alton Illinois |
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iirc almost nothing manufactured in the last 20 years (maybe closer to 30 now) is a true Remington .223 - too much liability if a 5.56 on the long side of spec get's chambered. I thing the Wylde is a 5.56 with tight specs - no room for out of spec 5.56. Question is your 1955 bolt action .223 actually chambered to the Remington spec? That said, this is not the only cartridge that could have problems in old guns. Run a level II 45/70 in a trap door, or even a hot 30/06 in a early run 30/06 and you will probably have way more pressure than those guns were designed for as well (but that is due to the guns not being designed for modern powder - not a headspace issue).
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