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Posted: 2/7/2009 1:51:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: crashburnrepeat]
I have been feeling pretty tired the last few months, also have noticed a change in the way my muscle mass changes in response to working out along with a slight drop in libido. It's still there but not the same as before. So I asked my neighbor who's a doc and he wanted to run some tests.
I came back with low testosterone and very low Vit D. Testosterone was only 160 when he said it should be 400-800 and 400 was considered low. he said it's likely related to stress and my travel schedule and work which lately has been insane. Also not sleeping well. He outlined a couple of options. 1 is a testosterone gel but he said that's a lifetime option. Once you start, you can't stop. that doesn't sound good. another one is something called "novarel" or HCG. He said it helps stimulate your body to produce it's own. This sounds like a better option since it sounds like I can come off it if my schedule goes back to normal or I start getting some sleep.. I'm not sure though. Anyone else gone through this? it's not bad, I feel fine I just don't feel quite "normal". Any reason not to use the Novarel/HCG stuff? |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 2:14:01 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GunGuyMP:
I still don't feel very different, I feel like I have to try hard to find something I am feeling that is different. You would expect 270 to 700s jump would be noticeable. Also 700, while a really good number, is not that noticeable anyway at least not for me. With my T injections I was in the 900 to 1,000 range and felt solid. I've backed off that dose some and I'm in the 600-700 range now and feel less. It's hard to describe. I don't feel as much energy, drive, and recover a bit slower. However, in comparison to how I felt when I was at 200, I am doing great. |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 2:16:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EXPY37:
Why not call the folks at EMT or whatever that company was that the Det-Oak-Man was always posting here about?  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EXPY37:
Originally Posted By jrzy:
I am for sure but these doctors around here are quacks and few and far between. I have an echo cardio test later this month to rule out any heart problems. Saw 2 different endos this year both didn't know hardly anything about TRT. GP knows less than nothing, said he never heard of E2 inhibitor. Never heard of using HCG. I guess I'm going to have to find an Endo in NYC who knows wtf He's doing 2 hour drive I'm going to take one more shot a little more east, near stroudburg Pa, closer to jersey maybe better docs? |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 2:20:54 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
I thought he was already using IMT? I know he kept saying great things about the guy posting here marketing their $750 for 10 weeks treatment and putting down every other treatment option and company available. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
Originally Posted By EXPY37:
Originally Posted By jrzy:
I am for sure but these doctors around here are quacks and few and far between. I have an echo cardio test later this month to rule out any heart problems. Saw 2 different endos this year both didn't know hardly anything about TRT. GP knows less than nothing, said he never heard of E2 inhibitor. Never heard of using HCG. I guess I'm going to have to find an Endo in NYC who knows wtf He's doing 2 hour drive I'm going to take one more shot a little more east, near stroudburg Pa, closer to jersey maybe better docs? |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 2:22:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dogsandhogs:
That dude was out of line posting here without being a site sponsor, but the company does offer a good service. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dogsandhogs:
Originally Posted By EXPY37:
Why not call the folks at EMT or whatever that company was that the Det-Oak-Man was always posting here about? |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2017 2:27:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: moonjumper]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EXPY37:
OMG! Cut it in HALF??? Prepare for a likely LONG wait... Arimidex is super powerful/effective in men... 
I do well by biting a chunk off a tab abt every 2 weeks or so... 
Which reminds me... I also keep a log of all meds, and other related events, does anyone else? I don't keep a log as well as I should but I do keep all of my labs as well as current lists of medicines, vitamins, and supplements. |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 2:30:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dogsandhogs:
That dude was out of line posting here without being a site sponsor, but the company does offer a good service. LOL! |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 2:31:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: EXPY37]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
I thought he was already using IMT? I know he kept saying great things about the guy posting here marketing their $750 for 10 weeks treatment and putting down every other treatment option and company available. But... That was THEN! I thought they were going steady...
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Posted: 5/15/2017 2:32:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By moonjumper:
Anastrozole is pretty ineffective with me. Estrogen levels stayed around 60 even on 2 mg a week. Switched to letrozole and it is apparently very effective with me. I actually don't feel bad at all even at this level but I know it needs to be a little higher than 7. No joint pain any different than has ever been my normal. However if mine gets up to around 50 and climbing I experience worse join t pain and horrible night sweats and we won't even get into the emotions. However the low E could explain the dip in my sex drive that I've noticed. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2017 2:37:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EXPY37:
How do you determine your E level? |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 3:05:26 PM EDT
[#10]
So here is mine...
Testosterone = 123 ng/dL Testosterone, Free = 2.46 ng/dL Testosterone, Free Pct = 2.00 % Run down... Tired... No drive... UGH! Feel exhausted all the time. Doc prescribed Axiron for this after the test results. Went to Kroger to pick up the prescription and was told that it had to have a prior authorization from the insurance. Just got a denial letter from insurance that said to try Androgel 1.62 first. Damn insurance companies... They know better than the doc. |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 5:21:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LE6920:
$750 every 10 weeks? Wow, that seems expensive. Hopefully that is no other out of pocket costs and frequent labs included as well. |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 6:51:56 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By moonjumper:
Anastrozole is pretty ineffective with me. Estrogen levels stayed around 60 even on 2 mg a week. Switched to letrozole and it is apparently very effective with me. I actually don't feel bad at all even at this level but I know it needs to be a little higher than 7. No joint pain any different than has ever been my normal. However if mine gets up to around 50 and climbing I experience worse joint pain and horrible night sweats and we won't even get into the emotions. However the low E could explain the dip in my sex drive that I've noticed. I don't keep a log as well as I should but I do keep all of my labs as well as current lists of medicines, vitamins, and supplements. |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 7:58:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LE6920:
$750 every 10 weeks? Wow, that seems expensive. Hopefully that is no other out of pocket costs and frequent labs included as well. |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 8:01:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EXPY37:
For a MILLION or so BUCKS... LOL! |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2017 8:19:50 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cfishman:
I do 150 T a week, levels been good, feel great! When I'd go do my 6 month check, I'd ask about my E, doc said not necessary, not symptomatic. Last month or two, no energy, weak, easily agitated, libido off, mental fog. Made appointment with doc last week, results came in today....137 E2. I didn't even ask where my T was at. Doc wants me to pick up med tomorrow to do a liver flush (?). I asked nurse about e inhibitors, she said this is phase one. What am I in for? I have been off t for a month now, my T in now 234 and e is 5.0. Doc wants me to do cream for a month and check how I do with that. I just want to go back to injection of .7 per week and start e- blocker. Feeling like a guinea pig |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 8:30:45 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cfishman:
My T was 990 when that post was written. I have been off t for a month now, my T in now 234 and e is 5.0. Doc wants me to do cream for a month and check how I do with that. I just want to go back to injection of .7 per week and start e- blocker. Feeling like a guinea pig |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2017 8:35:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KaiK:
WTF why? That's some dumb shit. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KaiK:
Originally Posted By cfishman:
My T was 990 when that post was written. I have been off t for a month now, my T in now 234 and e is 5.0. Doc wants me to do cream for a month and check how I do with that. I just want to go back to injection of .7 per week and start e- blocker. Feeling like a guinea pig |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2017 10:21:00 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk:
Anastrozle allows estrogen to still flow through the blood stream while letro kills it. I used letro to get |
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Posted: 5/16/2017 9:37:50 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By moonjumper:
Yeah just did some reading. Per what I have seen the original doc should have reduced the dosage a good bit. Oh well, I'll come back up. I used letro to kill some adolescent gyno. When you star getting lower in body fat, it shows so about a month of an aggressive letro dose it disappeared. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2017 9:27:06 PM EDT
[#20]
OK so I got my first set of labs at six weeks in on 100mg/week. results are at a 7 day trough.
TT-595, HCT-44, E2- 50! (on a non-sensitive test with a ref. range that goes to 68.) I told the nurse I wanted the sensitive, she said she'd make sure... I'm not too worried about the E2 because I know the test is worthless/reads high, I feel great, no sides, I'm still getting some low-E2 symptoms in the troughs (joint pain) and libido/wood is sky high. My doc is still not that knowledgeable but cooperative, she agreed to going to a 16mg/day SQ protocol to minimize E2/maximize the test levels I can run without sides (I really don't want to use an AI unless I have to after being crashed for so long), add hcg when I feel like I need it, and run a sensitive male E2 assay next labs. I lost 12 lbs and added a plate to my squat over the six weeks. Overall I'm pretty happy. |
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Posted: 5/16/2017 9:40:03 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K2QB3:
OK so I got my first set of labs at six weeks in on 100mg/week. results are at a 7 day trough. TT-595, HCT-44, E2- 50! (on a non-sensitive test with a ref. range that goes to 68.) I told the nurse I wanted the sensitive, she said she'd make sure... I'm not too worried about the E2 because I know the test is worthless/reads high, I feel great, no sides, I'm still getting some low-E2 symptoms in the troughs (joint pain) and libido/wood is sky high. My doc is still not that knowledgeable but cooperative, she agreed to going to a 16mg/day SQ protocol to minimize E2/maximize the test levels I can run without sides (I really don't want to use an AI unless I have to after being crashed for so long), add hcg when I feel like I need it, and run a sensitive male E2 assay next labs. I lost 12 lbs and added a plate to my squat over the six weeks. Overall I'm pretty happy. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2017 9:49:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: K2QB3]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BASE:
That's not bad at all. I'd keep any eye on the E2. It took a while to stabilize for me. like a year or so. Lots of benefits to going steady state at this stage, should be easy to fine tune and find the sweet spot and I won't have to worry about lab timing. If my E2 is high eliminating the peaks should help. I'll pay for the better test in six weeks or if I have any symptoms. ETA-aaand my pharmacy just called to tell me my anastrozole prescription is ready, guess she consulted someone else in the office. Guess I'll cut one into quarters for science. |
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Posted: 5/19/2017 8:07:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Got my initial labs back from the new doc:
 Attached File Attached File Attached FileI'm currently doing 100mg/wk, split into 2 shots spaced 3.5 days apart. This blood was taken 24hrs after a shot. Any thoughts? Aside from telling me to drink less and spend more time in the sun
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Posted: 5/19/2017 8:20:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Xyster7212:
Got my initial labs back from the new doc: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/105576/labs1-212072.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/105576/labs2-212073.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/105576/labs3-212074.JPG I'm currently doing 100mg/wk, split into 2 shots spaced 3.5 days apart. This blood was taken 24hrs after a shot. Any thoughts? Aside from telling me to drink less and spend more time in the sun |
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Posted: 5/19/2017 8:22:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoeyIsaacs:
So here is mine... Testosterone = 123 ng/dL Testosterone, Free = 2.46 ng/dL Testosterone, Free Pct = 2.00 % Run down... Tired... No drive... UGH! Feel exhausted all the time. Doc prescribed Axiron for this after the test results. Went to Kroger to pick up the prescription and was told that it had to have a prior authorization from the insurance. Just got a denial letter from insurance that said to try Androgel 1.62 first. Damn insurance companies... They know better than the doc. |
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Posted: 5/19/2017 8:34:48 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By killswitch:
I'd start giving blood/ lower my dose if it was me. HCT might get away from you. But I've had a terrible time with it. Yeah, I'd like that HCT to be a bit lower. This is my results for the past few years:  Attached FileI donated blood this past March, between the last graph data point and the new results above. It didn't seem to have much effect. |
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Posted: 5/19/2017 8:39:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Xyster7212:
I'll down around 700 at the end of the 3.5 day cycle, according to previous labs. Yeah, I'd like that HCT to be a bit lower. This is my results for the past few years: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/105576/hct-212101.JPG I donated blood this past March, between the last graph data point and the new results above. It didn't seem to have much effect. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Xyster7212:
Originally Posted By killswitch:
I'd start giving blood/ lower my dose if it was me. HCT might get away from you. But I've had a terrible time with it. Yeah, I'd like that HCT to be a bit lower. This is my results for the past few years: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/105576/hct-212101.JPG I donated blood this past March, between the last graph data point and the new results above. It didn't seem to have much effect. 
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Posted: 5/19/2017 8:43:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By killswitch:
Ok then sounds like you are on it. I like giving the double RBC's, but twice as often as they'd like. So that's the issue. |
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Posted: 5/19/2017 9:12:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Xyster7212:
Got my initial labs back from the new doc: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/105576/labs1-212072.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/105576/labs2-212073.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/105576/labs3-212074.JPG I'm currently doing 100mg/wk, split into 2 shots spaced 3.5 days apart. This blood was taken 24hrs after a shot. Any thoughts? Aside from telling me to drink less and spend more time in the sun |
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Posted: 5/19/2017 9:18:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KaiK:
Looks good to me. But I'm no Dr. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/20/2017 12:16:58 PM EDT
[#31]
While on TRT is there any benefit to also taking Clomid?
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Posted: 5/20/2017 2:06:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DOG556:
While on TRT is there any benefit to also taking Clomid? |
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Posted: 5/20/2017 2:57:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARH:
It will keep your balls working and prevent atrophy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARH:
Originally Posted By DOG556:
While on TRT is there any benefit to also taking Clomid? |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/20/2017 3:56:15 PM EDT
[#34]
So then Clomid and TRT together could cause problems.
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Posted: 5/20/2017 4:23:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Xyster7212:
I just looked up the "Power Red" double RBC donation - I think I'll do that next time. Thanks for the tip! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Xyster7212:
Originally Posted By killswitch:
Ok then sounds like you are on it. I like giving the double RBC's, but twice as often as they'd like. So that's the issue. 
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Posted: 5/20/2017 11:31:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PantherArms762:
Give it a try for a couple weeks, in a pinch, you might leave your luggage instead of the CPAP. Heavenly. LINK Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PantherArms762:
Originally Posted By killswitch:
No I wouldn't say it is. But I'm traveling around the world for a year so can't really be dragging a cpap. Heavenly. LINK
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/21/2017 10:12:59 PM EDT
[#37]
What's the normal ..... What is the avg usual injection protocol for HCG? How long does it last in your body before redose?
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Posted: 5/22/2017 7:26:41 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DOG556:
So then Clomid and TRT together could cause problems. I've also tried HCG with clomid, after I hit a peak level and it settled down. That would have been at least a year if not 2 years into using clomid. That gave me up to a 100 point increase in my T level. However, the feedback loop is still in play at some level even though clomid disrupts it. Increasing the output signal could ultimate cause the input signal to become lower. So I never used HCG long term. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 7:33:10 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DOG556:
What's the normal ..... What is the avg usual injection protocol for HCG? How long does it last in your body before redose? I notice an effect from it in 4 hours. It has a short half life (a day or less I believe) but seems to have a residual effect as studies are reporting a testosterone increase on day 3. It goes up day 1, drops day 2, then goes back up some day 3. I would start with 250iu 3x a week and see how it works. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 11:51:49 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By killswitch:
Ok, ordered. Not sure how it will all work out but I Guess I'll find out won't I. Now it's like Pavlovian. Strap on the mask, deeeeep breath, sloooowww exhale. Fuckin dream time. Comatose until alarm. And sometimes an hour after. I got a nice stiff pillow so I can sleep on my side without the smoosh of the pillow pushing my mask off. Won't sleep without it now. Ask questions! |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 2:17:41 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
You are thinking of HCG. Clomid won't do any of that or anything at all if you are taking testosterone. Clomid breaks a negative feedback loop if you aren't taking T and it ramps your natural production of hormones into over drive. T pretty much shuts down all natural production and sends a stronger signal then clomid does. If he says it it's true |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 3:03:28 PM EDT
[#42]
At the Dr now. Waiting to talk about my lab results. All I know was that my T level was a 314. I really don't know shit about this so hope he does!
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Posted: 5/22/2017 4:15:24 PM EDT
[#43]
I guess my lab wasn't a full lab screen so I am going back for a full screen. DR is willing to do a T shot and just see how I feel over the next week and get back with him once we get lab results.
Any comments on that? 34 6'2 225lbs about a 35" waist so I could stand to lose a 15lbs. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 8:26:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KaiK]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Huskercoop:
I guess my lab wasn't a full lab screen so I am going back for a full screen. DR is willing to do a T shot and just see how I feel over the next week and get back with him once we get lab results. Any comments on that? 34 6'2 225lbs about a 35" waist so I could stand to lose a 15lbs. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 9:50:41 PM EDT
[#45]
200mg. I didn't get to the point of asking if he would let me self inject either. He did ask about if I was worried about having more kids. I have three boys and I am done! So not a big deal. So if you go on T it's a lifelong commitment? Is that correct. And should I mention clomid at all?
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Posted: 5/22/2017 10:17:30 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Huskercoop:
200mg. I didn't get to the point of asking if he would let me self inject either. He did ask about if I was worried about having more kids. I have three boys and I am done! So not a big deal. So if you go on T it's a lifelong commitment? Is that correct. And should I mention clomid at all? 
Yes it's life long. Unless you want to feel like shit again. Clomid made me feel weird. It works for some people. I didn't like the side effect that said it could cause blindness. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 10:27:07 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Huskercoop:
200mg. I didn't get to the point of asking if he would let me self inject either. He did ask about if I was worried about having more kids. I have three boys and I am done! So not a big deal. So if you go on T it's a lifelong commitment? Is that correct. And should I mention clomid at all? Clomid is the easiest and cheapest treatment options but the side effects will eventually get to you. I made it about 4 years on it before I had enough and switched to T plus HCG. |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 12:32:32 AM EDT
[#48]
Thanks for the replies. Any Tulsa area Dr's to recommend if I need to switch?
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2017 1:36:46 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
Clomid is the easiest and cheapest treatment options but the side effects will eventually get to you. I made it about 4 years on it before I had enough and switched to T plus HCG. |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 11:28:29 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stanc:
What side effects caused you to discontinue clomid, and how bad did they get? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stanc:
Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Clomid is the easiest and cheapest treatment options but the side effects will eventually get to you. I made it about 4 years on it before I had enough and switched to T plus HCG. High E and low E will cause ED issues. High E will cause mood swings and increase emotions. Even though you might have a decent T level, you can still have ED issues and get emotional. Maybe the clomid decreases drive or maybe experiencing those things all the time just causes drive to go away, I'm not sure, but the loss of interest was real. Over the years clomid seemed to become less effective. A higher dose just brought on higher side effects. As bad as all that was/seemed, it still was better than what I experienced with Low T and no treatment. When I made the switch I went a month with no treatment. Everything I described above continued but then I also become tired, depressed, lost all motivation, and was just going through the motions of daily life. i had stuck with clomid mainly for fertility reasons but put that concern on hold when I made the switch. I then did a lab about 6 months into T and HCG and found that combination did maintain my fertility. T injection twice a week plus HCG is the most controllable and stable option. It isn't the easiest and cheapest but you will feel the best and can adjust the dose/results easily. Clomid is basically a take 50mg daily and you get what you get treatment. |
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