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Posted: 2/7/2009 1:51:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: crashburnrepeat]
I have been feeling pretty tired the last few months, also have noticed a change in the way my muscle mass changes in response to working out along with a slight drop in libido. It's still there but not the same as before. So I asked my neighbor who's a doc and he wanted to run some tests.
I came back with low testosterone and very low Vit D. Testosterone was only 160 when he said it should be 400-800 and 400 was considered low. he said it's likely related to stress and my travel schedule and work which lately has been insane. Also not sleeping well. He outlined a couple of options. 1 is a testosterone gel but he said that's a lifetime option. Once you start, you can't stop. that doesn't sound good. another one is something called "novarel" or HCG. He said it helps stimulate your body to produce it's own. This sounds like a better option since it sounds like I can come off it if my schedule goes back to normal or I start getting some sleep.. I'm not sure though. Anyone else gone through this? it's not bad, I feel fine I just don't feel quite "normal". Any reason not to use the Novarel/HCG stuff? |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 3:13:54 AM EDT
[#1]
I just came across this page http://www.amepc.org/tau/article/view/2249/3145 and have to say it is the most comprehensive source of information that I have seen so far. It covers the whole gambit of TRT, including fertility, with sited references to other studies. It talks about testosterone as a contrecptive, HCG, clomid, testosterone with HCG, and Aromatase inhibitors.
I will be taking this page with me to my follow up visit with the anti-aging doctors. They seem to have a good grasp of proper treatment but this backs up treatment and doses that I was thinking about. Basically 200mg a week of T and 500iu of HCG EOD. The combination is supposed to maintain fertility. The article does advise against any form of exogenous testosterone if fertility is a primary concern. They recommend clomid instead. hCG and testosterone Intramuscular testosterone enanthate (200 mg/week) with low dose hCG can preserve ITT and serum testosterone levels ... Despite clinical doses of exogenous testosterone, low-dose hCG can maintain high levels of ITT. ... Hsieh and Lipshultz demonstrated that low dose hCG (500 IU every other day) appears to maintain semen parameters in hypogonadal men on topical or intramuscular testosterone therapy |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 4:40:40 AM EDT
[#2]
This article covers multiple areas as well and sites medical studies.
Part 1 Part 2 I think it starts to explain why people on clomid don't feel as great as the people on T, even if their T levels are similar. It acts as an estrogen and raises estrogen levels which seems to cause water retention and ED issues. Plus according to the article it reduces free testosterone by lowering GH and IGF-1 while at the same time increasing SHBG. The reference for that information points to this study, which was done on women. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7750589 Result: A progressive decline in serum IGF-I levels was observed in all subjects reaching a maximum of 30% on the 5th day of therapy (40.6 +/- 5.1 to 28.7 +/- 4.0 nmol/L [conversion factor to SI unit, 0.13]). This was correlated inversely with the expected rises in LH, FSH, and E2 levels. Concomitantly, there was a 23% rise in SHBG levels. The absolute decrease of IGF-I levels was negatively correlated with age and was independent of body mass index. That took me to this study which was done on men and showed a 42.5% increase in SHBG, an increase in E2, and a decrease in free T. That goes along with what was seen in the study on women. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6797955 The findings of this study indicated the CC causes an increase of SHBG concentration, which is probably related to the rise of E2 concentration. This SHBG change, combined with the intrinsic oestrogenic activity of CC might be one of the factors responsible, through a decrease of free T and a T to E2 imbalance, for the lack of significant effect on parameters of seminal quality in so treated patients. |
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KOR
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:44:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By easy610:
Due to this thread got tested and was 394. Dr says, "Thats normal...sorry buddy.." no treatment....  Same deal here. I got tested because of this thread, my level was 326 and my doctor tried to tell me the same thing. Fortunately, I anticipated the little turd would do this so I pulled out a chart of average levels by age category and told "Yeah, it's a little lof if I was 85!!" He then told me that his level was actually a little lower than mine and he was fine. So I asked how old he is. 65!!! And then I started talking about how if I only had to do paperwork and stuff maybe it would be ok but I have to be able to perform physically at my job and this is interfering with that. I think he realized I wasn't about to let this go and he said ok. A few minutes later I got my first 200mg injection. I have had 3 now and the results are outstanding. Much less tired. My libido is much better. And now after I exercise my muscles get sore like they are building. Before, I was running regularly (sometimes 5 miles 3x times a week) and never had a hint of soreness in my legs. Very different now. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:54:23 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By oldbutspry:
Same deal here. I got tested because of this thread, my level was 326 and my doctor tried to tell me the same thing. Fortunately, I anticipated the little turd would do this so I pulled out a chart of average levels by age category and told "Yeah, it's a little lof if I was 85!!" He then told me that his level was actually a little lower than mine and he was fine. So I asked how old he is. 65!!! And then I started talking about how if I only had to do paperwork and stuff maybe it would be ok but I have to be able to perform physically at my job and this is interfering with that. I think he realized I wasn't about to let this go and he said ok. A few minutes later I got my first 200mg injection. I have had 3 now and the results are outstanding. Much less tired. My libido is much better. And now after I exercise my muscles get sore like they are building. Before, I was running regularly (sometimes 5 miles 3x times a week) and never had a hint of soreness in my legs. Very different now. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By oldbutspry:
Originally Posted By easy610:
Due to this thread got tested and was 394. Dr says, "Thats normal...sorry buddy.." no treatment.... Same deal here. I got tested because of this thread, my level was 326 and my doctor tried to tell me the same thing. Fortunately, I anticipated the little turd would do this so I pulled out a chart of average levels by age category and told "Yeah, it's a little lof if I was 85!!" He then told me that his level was actually a little lower than mine and he was fine. So I asked how old he is. 65!!! And then I started talking about how if I only had to do paperwork and stuff maybe it would be ok but I have to be able to perform physically at my job and this is interfering with that. I think he realized I wasn't about to let this go and he said ok. A few minutes later I got my first 200mg injection. I have had 3 now and the results are outstanding. Much less tired. My libido is much better. And now after I exercise my muscles get sore like they are building. Before, I was running regularly (sometimes 5 miles 3x times a week) and never had a hint of soreness in my legs. Very different now. This is something I've noticed in the past and thought it was just me. If my T is low or something is off I don't get sore just tired. My theory is with low test your body doesn't have the building material to repair the damage done by working out. You end up stressing the muscle but never repairing it. ...interesting |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 1:44:45 PM EDT
[#5]
Well this is a never ending FUCKING BATTLE to keep the E2 at proper levels, I( take a 1/2 mg of anastrzole when E2 gets too high, it knocks it down too low, take a 1/4 and it doesn't knock it down enough.
I knocked it down too low the other day and was lucky, Mt T shot was the next day and it seemed to rebound almost right away, I must have just knocked it down a little. I have found a good indicator (for me at least) of when E2 is getting too high. I found an post on T nation or somewhere, craving for chocolate or sweets , I guess just like a women when they get or are getting their period they crave sweets. Thats when their E2 is spiking (making them nuts) The rest of the symptoms of high E2 I don't get till much later. High estrogen sides Acne, loss of libido, water retention (Bloat), pissing less than the water you consume, moon face, very small testicles, scrotum hanging too high, soft testicles, extreme oiliness all over , aggression (roid rage), depression, bitchiness, lethargy, insomnia, soft erections, extreme cravings for sugar/chocolate, high bp, bp spikes, enlarged prostate, pressure in lower abdomen when urinating, thin stream, constipation (from water retention) Low estrogen sides Dry skin, dry lips, dehydration, loss of libido, good morning wood no wood when its time for sex, loss of wood while having sex, loss of sensitivity, dry gland (penis), white gland, loss of girth, irritability, mood swings, crying for no reason, dht rage (aggression you take out on others), dull orgasm, hesitation just before urinating, night sweats, loss of appetite, constant fatigue, lethargy, constipation (due to dehydration), diuretic effect (pissing more water than you are consuming), itchy scalp, obsessive thoughts |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 5:21:50 PM EDT
[#6]
On other boards people have recommended taking your anastrzole to a compounding pharmacy and having them turn it into a low dose capsule form. That way you could have them make a 0.10mg capsule. If 2 didn't work then you try 3 or 4 to get it where everything stays inline.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:13:38 PM EDT
[#7]
One of the interesting things from the report that Swire posted above referring to treatment using Clomid (Clomiphine Citrate):
"Significant improvements were seen in libido, energy, life enjoyment, feeling sad/grumpy, and sports performance. This study demonstrated that CC is an effective and safe alternative to testosterone supplementation therapy in hypogonadal men with a medium range follow-up." They were talking about the results from this study by Sloan-Kettering: link Looking at some related studies lead me to this one: link which says the results were: "A hundred and four men (65 CC and 39 TGRT) were identified who began CC (50 mg every other day) or TGRT (5 g). Average age (years) was 42(CC) vs. 57 (TGRT). Average follow up was 23 months (CC, range 8-40 months) vs. 46 months (TGRT, range 6-149 months). Average posttreatment testosterone was 573 ng/dL in the CC group and 553 ng/dL in the TGRT group (P value < 0.001). The monthly cost of Testim 1% (5 gm daily) is $270, Androgel 1% (5 gm daily) is $265, and CC (50 mg every other day) is $83. Among CC patients, the average pretreatment ADAM score was 4.9 vs. 2.1 at follow up (P < 0.05). Average pretreatment ADAM sexual function domain score was 0.76 vs. 0.23 at follow up (P < 0.05). There were no adverse events reported." That study seemed to show that the while T went up, sexual function goodness went down some, contradicting the study above. Another study, this one showed that the ratio of T to estrogen (usually the cause of sexual function issues) was markedly improved using just Clomid. I'm finding in reading these studies that you have to read the information they present very carefully. In one way, it's good in that you're presented with facts - all of them - the study produced. On the other hand, you have to make your own interpretation of what those facts mean because they often don't tell the whole story in their "conclusions" since they may only have been looking at one specific thing (and we're interested in a range of things). |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:27:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gotuonpaper]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk:
So your off 50mg per week? You can have kids while on TRT. Just needs another drug to counteract the the test and the feedback loop in the brain. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk:
Originally Posted By gotuonpaper:
Quit taking my testim 50mg on 12/30 at the advice of a specialist my GP sent me too over concerns for fertility. I was just starting to feel better at about 6 weeks of use. Dickhead doc said no way it could have helped that soon and it was a placebo effect. Wife joined right in and agreed. No almost 3 weeks without and I am back to no sleep and no energy and feeling like shat. I am at work at 830 in the morning and am so sleepy my vision is blurry and my eyes are crossing. So I risk no kids in a couple years or feeling like hammered shit my whole life....fuck me. So your off 50mg per week? You can have kids while on TRT. Just needs another drug to counteract the the test and the feedback loop in the brain. Yes I am off completely. I mentioned supplemental therapies but the specialist seemed to no the interested in exploring them. I was just starting to feel better and sleep semi regularly. I have no energy and feel like shit and wife is pissed because I don't help out around the house because I feel so bad.and she doesn't understand And it was 50mg per DAY. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:37:19 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: On other boards people have recommended taking your anastrzole to a compounding pharmacy and having them turn it into a low dose capsule form. That way you could have them make a 0.10mg capsule. If 2 didn't work then you try 3 or 4 to get it where everything stays inline. I have a ton of it now |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:40:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gotuonpaper:
Yes I am off completely. I mentioned supplemental therapies but the specialist seemed to no the interested in exploring them. I was just starting to feel better and sleep semi regularly. I have no energy and feel like shit and wife is pissed because I don't help out around the house because I feel so bad.and she doesn't understand And it was 50mg per DAY. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gotuonpaper:
Originally Posted By pumbaajk:
Originally Posted By gotuonpaper:
Quit taking my testim 50mg on 12/30 at the advice of a specialist my GP sent me too over concerns for fertility. I was just starting to feel better at about 6 weeks of use. Dickhead doc said no way it could have helped that soon and it was a placebo effect. Wife joined right in and agreed. No almost 3 weeks without and I am back to no sleep and no energy and feeling like shat. I am at work at 830 in the morning and am so sleepy my vision is blurry and my eyes are crossing. So I risk no kids in a couple years or feeling like hammered shit my whole life....fuck me. So your off 50mg per week? You can have kids while on TRT. Just needs another drug to counteract the the test and the feedback loop in the brain. Yes I am off completely. I mentioned supplemental therapies but the specialist seemed to no the interested in exploring them. I was just starting to feel better and sleep semi regularly. I have no energy and feel like shit and wife is pissed because I don't help out around the house because I feel so bad.and she doesn't understand And it was 50mg per DAY. 350mg per week? Holy fuck. If you haven't done any pct, you need to asap. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 9:45:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jrzy:
Can a compounding pharmacy take my anastrozole I already have and compound it to that dose ? I have a ton of it now Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By SWIRE:
On other boards people have recommended taking your anastrzole to a compounding pharmacy and having them turn it into a low dose capsule form. That way you could have them make a 0.10mg capsule. If 2 didn't work then you try 3 or 4 to get it where everything stays inline. I have a ton of it now You can do it yourself with a good reloading balance. Weigh ten pills and get an average weight per pill. Grind up the pills and weigh out what you need for dose titration. You should be able to get empty gelatin caps to make your personalized dose. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:07:35 PM EDT
[#12]
Or chop up a couple pills w/ a razor or 2 spoons, lay out a track, and divide it up appropriately.
We're not talking divvying up Moon dust here.... |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 8:02:43 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EXPY37:
Or chop up a couple pills w/ a razor or 2 spoons, lay out a track, and divide it up appropriately. hit the entire line. We're not talking divvying snorting up Moon dust here.... Fify 
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Posted: 1/18/2015 12:00:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Something told me this would happen...
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Posted: 1/19/2015 7:37:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2tired2run]
[#15]
My guy told me I don't know of any data to suggest low homrone levels are associatted with soft tissue joint issues. Guess I'll have to point him to this
http://ojs.sagepub.com/content/1/4_suppl/2325967113S00085.abstract PDF of the study with some more data pdf link |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 10:39:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk:
350mg per week? Holy fuck. If you haven't done any pct, you need to asap. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk:
Originally Posted By gotuonpaper:
Originally Posted By pumbaajk:
Originally Posted By gotuonpaper:
Quit taking my testim 50mg on 12/30 at the advice of a specialist my GP sent me too over concerns for fertility. I was just starting to feel better at about 6 weeks of use. Dickhead doc said no way it could have helped that soon and it was a placebo effect. Wife joined right in and agreed. No almost 3 weeks without and I am back to no sleep and no energy and feeling like shat. I am at work at 830 in the morning and am so sleepy my vision is blurry and my eyes are crossing. So I risk no kids in a couple years or feeling like hammered shit my whole life....fuck me. So your off 50mg per week? You can have kids while on TRT. Just needs another drug to counteract the the test and the feedback loop in the brain. Yes I am off completely. I mentioned supplemental therapies but the specialist seemed to no the interested in exploring them. I was just starting to feel better and sleep semi regularly. I have no energy and feel like shit and wife is pissed because I don't help out around the house because I feel so bad.and she doesn't understand And it was 50mg per DAY. 350mg per week? Holy fuck. If you haven't done any pct, you need to asap. So even though I have quit it could already have hurt my fertility? I was only on about 6 weeks and missed a week of that. |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 10:54:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gotuonpaper:
So even though I have quit it could already have hurt my fertility? I was only on about 6 weeks and missed a week of that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gotuonpaper:
Originally Posted By pumbaajk:
Originally Posted By gotuonpaper:
Originally Posted By pumbaajk:
Originally Posted By gotuonpaper:
Quit taking my testim 50mg on 12/30 at the advice of a specialist my GP sent me too over concerns for fertility. I was just starting to feel better at about 6 weeks of use. Dickhead doc said no way it could have helped that soon and it was a placebo effect. Wife joined right in and agreed. No almost 3 weeks without and I am back to no sleep and no energy and feeling like shat. I am at work at 830 in the morning and am so sleepy my vision is blurry and my eyes are crossing. So I risk no kids in a couple years or feeling like hammered shit my whole life....fuck me. So your off 50mg per week? You can have kids while on TRT. Just needs another drug to counteract the the test and the feedback loop in the brain. Yes I am off completely. I mentioned supplemental therapies but the specialist seemed to no the interested in exploring them. I was just starting to feel better and sleep semi regularly. I have no energy and feel like shit and wife is pissed because I don't help out around the house because I feel so bad.and she doesn't understand And it was 50mg per DAY. 350mg per week? Holy fuck. If you haven't done any pct, you need to asap. So even though I have quit it could already have hurt my fertility? I was only on about 6 weeks and missed a week of that. There is a possibility but the only way to know for sure is to test your lh, fsh, and sperm test. Nothing to freak out about. You're not the only person to encounter this. Body builders use a pct of clomid and hcg to restore natural testosterone and fertility. |
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Posted: 1/20/2015 12:23:41 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: One of the interesting things from the report that Swire posted above referring to treatment using Clomid (Clomiphine Citrate): "Significant improvements were seen in libido, energy, life enjoyment, feeling sad/grumpy, and sports performance. This study demonstrated that CC is an effective and safe alternative to testosterone supplementation therapy in hypogonadal men with a medium range follow-up." They were talking about the results from this study by Sloan-Kettering: link Looking at some related studies lead me to this one: link which says the results were: "A hundred and four men (65 CC and 39 TGRT) were identified who began CC (50 mg every other day) or TGRT (5 g). Average age (years) was 42(CC) vs. 57 (TGRT). Average follow up was 23 months (CC, range 8-40 months) vs. 46 months (TGRT, range 6-149 months). Average posttreatment testosterone was 573 ng/dL in the CC group and 553 ng/dL in the TGRT group (P value < 0.001). The monthly cost of Testim 1% (5 gm daily) is $270, Androgel 1% (5 gm daily) is $265, and CC (50 mg every other day) is $83. Among CC patients, the average pretreatment ADAM score was 4.9 vs. 2.1 at follow up (P < 0.05). Average pretreatment ADAM sexual function domain score was 0.76 vs. 0.23 at follow up (P < 0.05). There were no adverse events reported." That study seemed to show that the while T went up, sexual function goodness went down some, contradicting the study above. Another study, this one showed that the ratio of T to estrogen (usually the cause of sexual function issues) was markedly improved using just Clomid. I'm finding in reading these studies that you have to read the information they present very carefully. In one way, it's good in that you're presented with facts - all of them - the study produced. On the other hand, you have to make your own interpretation of what those facts mean because they often don't tell the whole story in their "conclusions" since they may only have been looking at one specific thing (and we're interested in a range of things). Yes, reading the studies carefully is very important. Most studies focus on one specific question and may or may not relate to other questions. Right now I've been off everything for about 2 months. I feel completely drained, I feel very weak all the time, my muscle mass seems to be shifting to fat around my waist, and I have zero desire. Compare that to how I felt on clomid I would agree that over no treatment at all clomid does increase libido, energy, life enjoyment, feeling sad/grumpy, and sports performance. Given how terrible I feel now I would much rather be on clomid. Now clomid versus a decent dose of testosterone will show that clomid increases estrogen, decreases free testosterone, and increases SHBG resulting in someone with ED issues and loss of drive. Compare someone on 200mg a week of T to someone on 500mg of T a week and they would report a similar as clomid vs T. The 500mg a week will make you feel amazing...until other problems start from it or you have to stop. It's all relative and each person is different. That's why my goal has always been to present as much scientifically backed information as possible so that people can make informed decisions. If fertility is a concern for myou then your treatment will be completely different than someone who isn't concerned about it. Fertility is still a concern for me and the info I am presenting to my doctor on Wednesday says using testosterone should be avoided. However, it also shows that fertility can be retained with T and HCG. So I'm willing to take the risk. I'm hoping the doctor will be on board as well. |
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Posted: 1/20/2015 12:26:17 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gotuonpaper: So even though I have quit it could already have hurt my fertility? I was only on about 6 weeks and missed a week of that. Depends what you mean by hurt. Will it have lowered your sperm count? Most definitely yes. Can you recover from it and get back to normal. Most definitely yes. The question is how long will that take. It could be a month or it could be out to a year.
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Posted: 1/20/2015 12:34:17 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jrzy: Can a compounding pharmacy take my anastrozole I already have and compound it to that dose ? I have a ton of it now Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jrzy: Originally Posted By SWIRE: On other boards people have recommended taking your anastrzole to a compounding pharmacy and having them turn it into a low dose capsule form. That way you could have them make a 0.10mg capsule. If 2 didn't work then you try 3 or 4 to get it where everything stays inline. I have a ton of it now I'm not sure how they work. One guy said he took his anastrozole in at the compounding pharmacy charged a $25 to put them into capsule form. If the doctor on Wednesday decided to treat me then I would be getting my prescriptions through a compounding pharmacy. I would know more on how they work after that.
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Posted: 1/20/2015 10:37:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: easy610]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2tired2run:
What were the lab ranges? Labcorp is 348-1197. Also what's your age body makeup etc.? When mine was that low I felt horrible. But if your doc is using a lab range that has lower limits he's going to be unlikely to treat you. An old MD I had was using labcorp then switched to a different lab who's range is 241-827 so all of a sudden 317 became in range so I was good. 
You'll either need to plead your case with your symptoms or move on to another doc that will treat. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2tired2run:
Originally Posted By easy610:
Due to this thread got tested and was 394. Dr says, "Thats normal...sorry buddy.." no treatment.... What were the lab ranges? Labcorp is 348-1197. Also what's your age body makeup etc.? When mine was that low I felt horrible. But if your doc is using a lab range that has lower limits he's going to be unlikely to treat you. An old MD I had was using labcorp then switched to a different lab who's range is 241-827 so all of a sudden 317 became in range so I was good.
You'll either need to plead your case with your symptoms or move on to another doc that will treat. Reference Range listed is 175-781 46 WM. 200#. Good shape. Work out 3-5 times a week. Good muscle mass, no health issues, no medication of any kind. My doctor (female, who I actually really like otherwise) was unconcerned about the number... **EDIT** Just surfed around looking for typical levels...and as stated by others, my levels are normal...for an 85+ year old male. Just left a message with my doctor with polite but firm inquiry that I wish for something. Mood - just "off" over the past couple years. Work out routinely but find little results. (I have been hitting shoulders HARD for a year and very very little change in size or definition...) I suspect she will suggest other meds first.... Thanks to this thread I am getting some kind of answer. Thanks ARFCOM for the motivation! |
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Posted: 1/20/2015 11:02:07 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By easy610:
Reference Range listed is 175-781 46 WM. 200#. Good shape. Work out 3-5 times a week. Good muscle mass, no health issues, no medication of any kind. My doctor (female, who I actually really like otherwise) was unconcerned about the number... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By easy610:
Originally Posted By 2tired2run:
Originally Posted By easy610:
Due to this thread got tested and was 394. Dr says, "Thats normal...sorry buddy.." no treatment.... What were the lab ranges? Labcorp is 348-1197. Also what's your age body makeup etc.? When mine was that low I felt horrible. But if your doc is using a lab range that has lower limits he's going to be unlikely to treat you. An old MD I had was using labcorp then switched to a different lab who's range is 241-827 so all of a sudden 317 became in range so I was good.
You'll either need to plead your case with your symptoms or move on to another doc that will treat. Reference Range listed is 175-781 46 WM. 200#. Good shape. Work out 3-5 times a week. Good muscle mass, no health issues, no medication of any kind. My doctor (female, who I actually really like otherwise) was unconcerned about the number... That has to be the lowest I've ever seen in a reference range. The reference range that lab is using is antiquated and indicative of a mom and pop operation. You can find a different doc or try to work with the one you have by presenting your symptoms, whatever they may be, and your concerns. In your case I'd also head to privatemdlabs.com, if you can use them in MI, and go to labcorp. The range from your lab seems to use some archaic data. Some information is here on levels by age: http://www.menshormonalhealth.com/normal-testosterone-levels.html |
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Posted: 1/20/2015 12:03:53 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
Depends what you mean by hurt. Will it have lowered your sperm count? Most definitely yes. Can you recover from it and get back to normal. Most definitely yes. The question is how long will that take. It could be a month or it could be out to a year. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
Originally Posted By gotuonpaper:
So even though I have quit it could already have hurt my fertility? I was only on about 6 weeks and missed a week of that. Depends what you mean by hurt. Will it have lowered your sperm count? Most definitely yes. Can you recover from it and get back to normal. Most definitely yes. The question is how long will that take. It could be a month or it could be out to a year. Well its not a real concern for at least another year. Wife is still in school and we don't want them until she finishes in Spring 2016. |
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Posted: 1/22/2015 8:19:46 PM EDT
[#24]
I got a call from my doctor's office today about the labs I had done last week. My test level was 202. I am going in for a follow up to talk about treatment on Tuesday.
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Posted: 1/22/2015 11:06:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Getting another blood test. Based on the info and experiences in this thread I will be getting treatment.
A very good friend just confided he's been using low t treatment for a couple years - almost identical story to mine. Found a good doctor who I will go to if my primary doesn't want to help. Once, again...thanks ARFCOM! |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 1:09:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 50ttop:
I got a call from my doctor's office today about the labs I had done last week. My test level was 202. I am going in for a follow up to talk about treatment on Tuesday. That's pretty low. How old are you? If you don't mind sharing. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 3:22:11 AM EDT
[#27]
Going on about 2 months without clomid and 2 weeks off any HCG my T level was 226. The anti-aging doctor thinks that my borderline insulin resistance is a contributing factor in my T being suppressed. So I'm working on diet changes. They did go ahead and start me on Test C injections though like I wanted. They are starting me out at 80mg a week along with 250iu of HCG EOD. A follow up visit will be 3 months down the road. I was hoping for a higher dose but I'm fine with starting out at this level and seeing how I respond to it.
Thanks to whoever posted the link to goodrx.com. The discount code allowed me to get 10ml of Test C from Walgreens for just over $43. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 7:43:52 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
Going on about 2 months without clomid and 2 weeks off any HCG my T level was 226. The anti-aging doctor thinks that my borderline insulin resistance is a contributing factor in my T being suppressed. So I'm working on diet changes. They did go ahead and start me on Test C injections though like I wanted. They are starting me out at 80mg a week along with 250iu of HCG EOD. A follow up visit will be 3 months down the road. I was hoping for a higher dose but I'm fine with starting out at this level and seeing how I respond to it. Thanks to whoever posted the link to goodrx.com. The discount code allowed me to get 10ml of Test C from Walgreens for just over $43. That's a damn good price for a 10ml vial! I don't know how that dosage will work out. 100mg test only got me to the 600 range and that includes 500iu hcg 2x per week. I upped the hcg to a m-w-f dosing with 60mg 2x per week. See how that goes in February. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 10:01:12 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
Going on about 2 months without clomid and 2 weeks off any HCG my T level was 226. The anti-aging doctor thinks that my borderline insulin resistance is a contributing factor in my T being suppressed. So I'm working on diet changes. They did go ahead and start me on Test C injections though like I wanted. They are starting me out at 80mg a week along with 250iu of HCG EOD. A follow up visit will be 3 months down the road. I was hoping for a higher dose but I'm fine with starting out at this level and seeing how I respond to it. Thanks to whoever posted the link to goodrx.com. The discount code allowed me to get 10ml of Test C from Walgreens for just over $43. Thanks from me, too. I was able to buy the same amount from my local Walgreens for just over $44. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 11:54:02 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
Going on about 2 months without clomid and 2 weeks off any HCG my T level was 226. The anti-aging doctor thinks that my borderline insulin resistance is a contributing factor in my T being suppressed. So I'm working on diet changes. They did go ahead and start me on Test C injections though like I wanted. They are starting me out at 80mg a week along with 250iu of HCG EOD. A follow up visit will be 3 months down the road. I was hoping for a higher dose but I'm fine with starting out at this level and seeing how I respond to it. Thanks to whoever posted the link to goodrx.com. The discount code allowed me to get 10ml of Test C from Walgreens for just over $43. Is 80mg a week pretty standard? My doc had me on injections for a couple of months but it was 100mg every 3 weeks. I saw no benefits from it and my T actually dropped a little. Have an appointment with a new doc early Feb. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 12:00:44 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By medicmandan:
Is 80mg a week pretty standard? My doc had me on injections for a couple of months but it was 100mg every 3 weeks. I saw no benefits from it and my T actually dropped a little. Have an appointment with a new doc early Feb. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By medicmandan:
Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Going on about 2 months without clomid and 2 weeks off any HCG my T level was 226. The anti-aging doctor thinks that my borderline insulin resistance is a contributing factor in my T being suppressed. So I'm working on diet changes. They did go ahead and start me on Test C injections though like I wanted. They are starting me out at 80mg a week along with 250iu of HCG EOD. A follow up visit will be 3 months down the road. I was hoping for a higher dose but I'm fine with starting out at this level and seeing how I respond to it. Thanks to whoever posted the link to goodrx.com. The discount code allowed me to get 10ml of Test C from Walgreens for just over $43. Is 80mg a week pretty standard? My doc had me on injections for a couple of months but it was 100mg every 3 weeks. I saw no benefits from it and my T actually dropped a little. Have an appointment with a new doc early Feb. It's dependent on the person. 80mg may be fine and get them the youthful energy of long ago. Some need 200 per week. No wonder you never saw any benefits of your trt. 100mg every three weeks will do absolutely nothing for you considering the half life of test cyp is 14 days. Even on one PER WEEK injections, you will see highs and lows in blood work and overall wellbeing. I myself opt for splitting the dose into two weekly injections to take the highs and lows out. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 12:59:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk: That's a damn good price for a 10ml vial! I don't know how that dosage will work out. 100mg test only got me to the 600 range and that includes 500iu hcg 2x per week. I upped the hcg to a m-w-f dosing with 60mg 2x per week. See how that goes in February. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk: Originally Posted By SWIRE: Going on about 2 months without clomid and 2 weeks off any HCG my T level was 226. The anti-aging doctor thinks that my borderline insulin resistance is a contributing factor in my T being suppressed. So I'm working on diet changes. They did go ahead and start me on Test C injections though like I wanted. They are starting me out at 80mg a week along with 250iu of HCG EOD. A follow up visit will be 3 months down the road. I was hoping for a higher dose but I'm fine with starting out at this level and seeing how I respond to it. Thanks to whoever posted the link to goodrx.com. The discount code allowed me to get 10ml of Test C from Walgreens for just over $43. That's a damn good price for a 10ml vial! I don't know how that dosage will work out. 100mg test only got me to the 600 range and that includes 500iu hcg 2x per week. I upped the hcg to a m-w-f dosing with 60mg 2x per week. See how that goes in February. I'm assuming that since they didn't know me and don't know how I will respond to it that they are starting me out lower. The doctor did say that we would work up from this point. She did freak out a bit when I showed her a medical study where men were on 200mg a week. I won't settle for a T level of 600. I can do that easily on clomid for pennies a day. The follow up visit will include a set of labs. I'm doing my own shots and would decide when to get the lab done. Very easy to get a lab that shows a desired result that way.  |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 1:02:55 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Going on about 2 months without clomid and 2 weeks off any HCG my T level was 226. The anti-aging doctor thinks that my borderline insulin resistance is a contributing factor in my T being suppressed. So I'm working on diet changes. They did go ahead and start me on Test C injections though like I wanted. They are starting me out at 80mg a week along with 250iu of HCG EOD. A follow up visit will be 3 months down the road. I was hoping for a higher dose but I'm fine with starting out at this level and seeing how I respond to it. Thanks to whoever posted the link to goodrx.com. The discount code allowed me to get 10ml of Test C from Walgreens for just over $43. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 1:05:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jrzy]
[#34]
DT
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Posted: 1/23/2015 1:12:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Since I have 3 months before my follow up visit I've decided to try out subcutaneous vs intramuscular injections to see how they go and how I do on them. I started by front loading the testosterone and did 1/2ml in my leg and 1/2ml on my stomach. My next 3 weeks will be done IM and I will get my own labs to see what my numbers are. Then the next 4 weeks will be subcutaneous followed by another set of labs.
Here is what I've noticed so far. Both injections were nearly painless, 25 gauge in the leg and 28 gauge in the stomach. Both locations developed a knot as expected. The leg started getting sore but the stomach was only sore if put pressure on it. Two days later and my leg is still a bit tender. My stomach has a noticeably red area where the injection was but again no discomfort unless I push on it. From the pain/irritation stand point subcutaneous wins hand down. You don't use your abdominal fat to do anything so you don't feel the irritation. The IM shot in the thigh is aggravated every time I move my leg. I will watch to see what goes away first, the tenderness in my thigh or the irritated area on my stomach.
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Posted: 1/23/2015 1:13:27 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jrzy: Thanks to whoever posted the link to goodrx.com. The discount code allowed me to get 10ml of Test C from Walgreens for just over $43. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jrzy: Originally Posted By SWIRE: Going on about 2 months without clomid and 2 weeks off any HCG my T level was 226. The anti-aging doctor thinks that my borderline insulin resistance is a contributing factor in my T being suppressed. So I'm working on diet changes. They did go ahead and start me on Test C injections though like I wanted. They are starting me out at 80mg a week along with 250iu of HCG EOD. A follow up visit will be 3 months down the road. I was hoping for a higher dose but I'm fine with starting out at this level and seeing how I respond to it. Thanks to whoever posted the link to goodrx.com. The discount code allowed me to get 10ml of Test C from Walgreens for just over $43. Thank you. It saved me a bunch. It was going to be $90+ even with insurance picking up part of it. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 1:14:16 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By medicmandan:
Is 80mg a week pretty standard? My doc had me on injections for a couple of months but it was 100mg every 3 weeks. I saw no benefits from it and my T actually dropped a little. Have an appointment with a new doc early Feb. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By medicmandan:
Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Going on about 2 months without clomid and 2 weeks off any HCG my T level was 226. The anti-aging doctor thinks that my borderline insulin resistance is a contributing factor in my T being suppressed. So I'm working on diet changes. They did go ahead and start me on Test C injections though like I wanted. They are starting me out at 80mg a week along with 250iu of HCG EOD. A follow up visit will be 3 months down the road. I was hoping for a higher dose but I'm fine with starting out at this level and seeing how I respond to it. Thanks to whoever posted the link to goodrx.com. The discount code allowed me to get 10ml of Test C from Walgreens for just over $43. Is 80mg a week pretty standard? My doc had me on injections for a couple of months but it was 100mg every 3 weeks. I saw no benefits from it and my T actually dropped a little. Have an appointment with a new doc early Feb. 100 mg every three weeks? Sorry, but your doc is a numbskull. I'm on 80mg per week and do fine, but others might need 100/week or maybe a bit more. Depends on the person and IMO on the brand as well. I personally find that Watson and West Ward work pretty well, while Paddock doesn't work as well for me. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 1:16:02 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
Yep, that was me with the good Rx , it good to be able to post something that helps people. Thank you. It saved me a bunch. It was going to be $90+ even with insurance picking up part of it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Going on about 2 months without clomid and 2 weeks off any HCG my T level was 226. The anti-aging doctor thinks that my borderline insulin resistance is a contributing factor in my T being suppressed. So I'm working on diet changes. They did go ahead and start me on Test C injections though like I wanted. They are starting me out at 80mg a week along with 250iu of HCG EOD. A follow up visit will be 3 months down the road. I was hoping for a higher dose but I'm fine with starting out at this level and seeing how I respond to it. Yep, that was me with the good Rx , it good to be able to post something that helps people. Thank you. It saved me a bunch. It was going to be $90+ even with insurance picking up part of it. For me it would have been about $70, so GoodRx saved me over $25 per vial. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 1:38:40 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE:
Since I have 3 months before my follow up visit I've decided to try out subcutaneous vs intramuscular injections to see how they go and how I do on them. I started by front loading the testosterone and did 1/2ml in my leg and 1/2ml on my stomach. My next 3 weeks will be done IM and I will get my own labs to see what my numbers are. Then the next 4 weeks will be subcutaneous followed by another set of labs. Here is what I've noticed so far. Both injections were nearly painless, 25 gauge in the leg and 28 gauge in the stomach. Both locations developed a knot as expected. The leg started getting sore but the stomach was only sore if put pressure on it. Two days later and my leg is still a bit tender. My stomach has a noticeably red area where the injection was but again no discomfort unless I push on it. From the pain/irritation stand point subcutaneous wins hand down. You don't use your abdominal fat to do anything so you don't feel the irritation. The IM shot in the thigh is aggravated every time I move my leg. I will watch to see what goes away first, the tenderness in my thigh or the irritated area on my stomach. Feel like a pin cushion yet? Between the two test shots and the 3 hcg shots, I am buying pins in bulk now. Try your delt. I did it with a 29g and it went flawless. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 2:42:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk:
Feel like a pin cushion yet? Between the two test shots and the 3 hcg shots, I am buying pins in bulk now. Try your delt. I did it with a 29g and it went flawless. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk:
Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Since I have 3 months before my follow up visit I've decided to try out subcutaneous vs intramuscular injections to see how they go and how I do on them. I started by front loading the testosterone and did 1/2ml in my leg and 1/2ml on my stomach. My next 3 weeks will be done IM and I will get my own labs to see what my numbers are. Then the next 4 weeks will be subcutaneous followed by another set of labs. Here is what I've noticed so far. Both injections were nearly painless, 25 gauge in the leg and 28 gauge in the stomach. Both locations developed a knot as expected. The leg started getting sore but the stomach was only sore if put pressure on it. Two days later and my leg is still a bit tender. My stomach has a noticeably red area where the injection was but again no discomfort unless I push on it. From the pain/irritation stand point subcutaneous wins hand down. You don't use your abdominal fat to do anything so you don't feel the irritation. The IM shot in the thigh is aggravated every time I move my leg. I will watch to see what goes away first, the tenderness in my thigh or the irritated area on my stomach. Feel like a pin cushion yet? Between the two test shots and the 3 hcg shots, I am buying pins in bulk now. Try your delt. I did it with a 29g and it went flawless. I've found the delt is less painful. My legs I always seem to find a nerve. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 2:48:25 PM EDT
[#41]
For those in the DFW area. Met a new doc this morning. Nice lady, her focus is on weight loss and TRT. Very knowledgeable about HCG, T, anastrozol etc. Had no problem pulling me off the clomid and was willing to go higher than my usual 100mg per week if I needed.
She also contracts for some online T clinic site as a local doc. Not saying she is the most knowledgeable but she is certainly willing to write the Rx and gave me a stack of syringes and needles. In her words, "no need to pay for those." |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 3:30:15 PM EDT
[#42]
new from my new specialist (endocrinologist):
where previously my total T was 147 and my free T was at 52, he says ignore the free T parameters (ranges from 300 - 1100) and that the free T is what matters and that since the ref range for that was 35 - 155 then he would have never put me on injection therapy to begin with. It was my FM/GP doctor that originally gave me cialis, then later when he determined I had low T, the FM/GP got me the injections which got me off cialis. I eventually lost faith in the FM/GP though after he didnt seem concerned in estrogen, CBC, etc. The specialist changed his tune though, when I told him my history with the cialis and coming off it from the injections. The specialist though, doesnt seem concerned with estrogen, or apparently, the "total" T level. *sigh* I should have stayed in Atlanta |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 9:30:57 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2tired2run:
That's pretty low. How old are you? If you don't mind sharing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2tired2run:
Originally Posted By 50ttop:
I got a call from my doctor's office today about the labs I had done last week. My test level was 202. I am going in for a follow up to talk about treatment on Tuesday. That's pretty low. How old are you? If you don't mind sharing. I am 27 |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 10:43:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 50ttop:
I am 27 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 50ttop:
Originally Posted By 2tired2run:
Originally Posted By 50ttop:
I got a call from my doctor's office today about the labs I had done last week. My test level was 202. I am going in for a follow up to talk about treatment on Tuesday. That's pretty low. How old are you? If you don't mind sharing. I am 27 Damn...gotta wonder if this is a new phenomenon. It seems like there are a lot of young guys popping up with low test. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 10:45:50 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2tired2run:
Damn...gotta wonder if this is a new phenomenon. It seems like there are a lot of young guys popping up with low test. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2tired2run:
Originally Posted By 50ttop:
Originally Posted By 2tired2run:
Originally Posted By 50ttop:
I got a call from my doctor's office today about the labs I had done last week. My test level was 202. I am going in for a follow up to talk about treatment on Tuesday. That's pretty low. How old are you? If you don't mind sharing. I am 27 Damn...gotta wonder if this is a new phenomenon. It seems like there are a lot of young guys popping up with low test. I was 25 when my symptoms started. I didn't do anything until I was almost 28. LowT does not discriminate. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 10:50:04 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk:
I was 25 when my symptoms started. I didn't do anything until I was almost 28. LowT does not discriminate. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk:
Originally Posted By 2tired2run:
Originally Posted By 50ttop:
Originally Posted By 2tired2run:
Originally Posted By 50ttop:
I got a call from my doctor's office today about the labs I had done last week. My test level was 202. I am going in for a follow up to talk about treatment on Tuesday. That's pretty low. How old are you? If you don't mind sharing. I am 27 Damn...gotta wonder if this is a new phenomenon. It seems like there are a lot of young guys popping up with low test. I was 25 when my symptoms started. I didn't do anything until I was almost 28. LowT does not discriminate. I've felt terrible for as long as I can remember. I am almost convinced that it is the foods that are forced upon us. Look at what they give a chicken during the thirty or so day life cycle. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 10:54:48 PM EDT
[#47]
Considering my father in law has grow houses for pilgrims, not what you think. I managed to get chicks from pilgrims for one of my wife's school projects. Only thing I fed them was scratch and they scavenged. They are genetically modified and it's not the food.
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Posted: 1/23/2015 11:37:49 PM EDT
[#48]
Tagged.
30 years old. Test came back 337, Doctor said it's normal. The little research I've done says otherwise. |
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Posted: 1/24/2015 2:28:22 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pumbaajk:
Considering my father in law has grow houses for pilgrims, not what you think. I managed to get chicks from pilgrims for one of my wife's school projects. Only thing I fed them was scratch and they scavenged. They are genetically modified and it's not the food. Whole other meaning if he's in CO.
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Posted: 1/24/2015 12:33:49 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2tired2run:
Whole other meaning if he's in CO. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2tired2run:
Originally Posted By pumbaajk:
Considering my father in law has grow houses for pilgrims, not what you think. I managed to get chicks from pilgrims for one of my wife's school projects. Only thing I fed them was scratch and they scavenged. They are genetically modified and it's not the food. Whole other meaning if he's in CO.
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