I have been feeling pretty tired the last few months,  also have noticed a change in the way my muscle mass changes in response to working out along with a slight drop in libido. It's still there but not the same as before.  So I asked my neighbor who's a doc and he wanted to run some tests.


I came back with low testosterone and very low Vit D.  Testosterone was only 160 when he said it should be 400-800 and 400 was considered low.

he said it's likely related to stress and my travel schedule and work which lately has been insane.  Also not sleeping well.

He outlined a couple of options.  1 is a testosterone gel but he said that's a lifetime option. Once you start, you can't stop.  that doesn't sound good.

another one is something called "novarel" or HCG.  He said it helps stimulate your body to produce it's own.  This sounds like a better option since it sounds like I can come off it if my schedule goes back to normal or I start getting some sleep..


I'm not sure though. Anyone else gone through this?  it's not bad,  I feel fine I just don't feel quite "normal".  Any reason not to use the Novarel/HCG stuff?

I swear....

Someone who went to school for half as long as I have been alive, these people are complete retards. They also get defensive when a patient walks in having done research about the subject and questions them on something as simple as saying 600 is not to high when the safe number goes up to 1100.

They don't call some folks HI IQ Idiots fer nuthin...


Expy/made that up... Ga-yuk...

So what's all the cool kids doing now? Ain't they all putting # signs behind everything?

So I should have done #expy's idiots?

Seriously, was I wrong on my assumption and how I handled things?

I was lucky.  My Urologist actually thanked me for forcing him to read up on Estradiol levels in men.

I think FWIW, that attacking a 'professional' who will be making notes of your 'actions' [that many others are likely to read] is best handled by keeping your cool.

Loosing it accomplishes NOTHING other than making you feel better for a moment.

It also demonstrates your inability to handle situations, uh, efficiently, and creating a better likelihood for a positive outcome  ---eventually.

Simply put, throwing a 'tantrum' or cursing your doc, or simply cursing, is childish and immature, and suggests that the person doing it will have issues being successful in life.

Just look around....


My family doc that I've mentioned of my frustrations here, since last July of 2013, of his inability to recognize the treatment that 'knowledgeable' HRT docs use, is slowly coming around. I've always treated his HRT dumb-ass with respect, all visits, and had one with him 2 weeks ago.


The visit prior, ~2 months before, he said "I want to see you in 2 months for high HCT and too much testosterone!"


Too much testosterone????????????


So I researched prior HTC measurements and found one from bloodwork he ordered prior to HRT.

I snipped it from their medical portal they like folks to 'subscribe' to, and combined it with the lab data since that I had done by LabCorp, to take to him.


I also have been keeping DETAILED but crude, daily records of exercise, wood, libido, HCT measurements [once or twice a week] -the sheets are folded 8 1/2 x 11 sheets of paper with horizontal hand drawn lines for each day, and look impressive and are incomprehensible to most anyone but myself.



So I went to him with this data 2 weeks ago and it was almost like seeing another doc!

He saw I was prepared, I suggested I might have a complex means [having taken the initiative, that not a single other person in a million, would take] of measuring HCT and ability to provide the data to him, and he was very curious and interested.

We discussed centrifuges, how to take blood from the finger without damaging red cells and getting inaccurate readings, etc.

I think at that point he realized I wasn't another poorly motivated, uneducated, lazy, Sheeple turkey wasting his time, altho I might be.


He was sufficiently curious -at my suggestion- to give me an order for an HCT test, so as to compare his lab's results with LabCorp's and mine, to be used at the same time I pull another Labcorp.


I discussed the issue of his claim I was running too high T, before he brought it up, and ASKED WHAT WE COULD DO AS AN EXPERIMENT, to find optimum levels.

He sort of hemmed and hawed, not likely having this 'experience' before, so I answered my own question and he agreed I could try reducing the dosage by 10% or something.  


I will or won't depending on what I feel like doing.


REMEMBER, this doc, my FAMILY doc, ISN'T my HRT doc.

My HRT doc will never know of this.


This, subject doc, kept me in the room for over 1/2 an hour, I was very surprised, at his interest. [He's the one who won't hear of using estrogen blockers or HCG]

He, at the meeting ~2 months ago indicated that he has done additional research and did read some articles I gave him, courtesy of members here, but suggested the author's were selling something.


So, I've kept my cool with him at every turn, never use the F word -that so many flat screen and movie addicts seem to be stupidly addicted to using] and he has changed ---to my advantage and is a far better resource.

Also remember, if I have to go to the hospital or have other complications, I need an ally, not an opponent.

At the end of the meeting, and I reminded him several times that he needed to go fix their computer system that someone came in the room early on to tell him it was down, I asked for an emergency script of strong antibiotics to replace ones he'd given me years ago for diverticulitis.

Without a blink he pressed on my belly, advised what to look and not look for as symptoms, etc, as he popped out scripts from his printer.

While I joked abt the option of Fish Meds.  


We discussed DIY phlebotomy uh, 'options', and I was amazed at his response.


He said, looks like you have everything under control and I told him I'd advise him of the HCT issue.

He also said "It seems you don't have issues sticking needles in you". I told him it used to take me 1/2 an hour to stick my finger for a DIY Wal-Mart cholesterol test.



He spent some time with a stethoscope listening to my heart and appeared satisfied.

Now this is the doc who originally issued me my first T-C script, that I had to replace with another doc, due to his uh, lack of information, and who is coming along nicely, in his indoctrination, by Expy.




You asked, I answered, hope there's no hard feelings.  

WW !

 

When I say that I went off on the guy, I guess that was kind of  overstated. By the end of the whole 7 minute visit, we had not reached an agreement but we agreed to disagree. When I asked him how I based my dosage because clearly 1/2cc was not enough and I can't go off how I feel, how do I dose? He never gave me an answer and I called him on it. He openly admitted to not knowing enough about the subject on testosterone, hcg, and anti Estrogen but still tried to tell me I was doing it wrong.

I didn't call him fucktard but I was in the back of my mind.

Yeah, well, it meant enduring a few extra months of high E to get him to come around.

Not going to quote what EPXY said above but thats good stuff.  I find myself throwing the little I have learned out the window when my doctor starts to frustrate me instead of keeping my cool and arming myself with more knowledge.  I can relate to your frustrations PJ.

Thanks, because I edited it...  

I am damn near tempted to drive to the dfw area and use 2tired2run's  PA. He seems like he knows what the hell is going on.

ok so with a shot you need it every 2 weeks.  OK maybe I see once a week for some people, to try to maintain a smaller difference between the highs and lows?  if that is the case then assuming the androgel is every day, what range can I expect to swing?

when is my natural level the highest?  just after waking?  midday? at night?

if on a once/24hr regimen, when would levels be highest/lowest?

All my blood tests have been right after workouts in the AM, which is just before I apply androgel, and I cannot seem to get above 250 and that is 3 pumps/day.  I have been on almost a month at 4 pumps a day and am about to retest bloodwork and thought I would try to do it when range would be highest this time.

Feel free.  Hell I'll put you up for the night if you need too.  

Anybody ever run into sudden on set of alopecia?

I developed a spot on the back of my head and on my face.  Really really weird.

I'll bring the beer!

If 2 tired 2 runs PA happens to be in a ill ole town by the speedway...I bet I know who it is....and if it is who I think it is....he is hands down the very best in the area. I know HUNDREDS of his patients..many of which are LEO and FIRE

OK so my Buddy goes to his local doc, the doc knows nothing about T therapy buy reads up and says he will write 1 ml per week but no Anastrozole or HCG because he does not know enough.


He writes the script and my buddy goes online and sees he can get a pretty good price form Canada pharm whatever.





They tell him to fax the script over , he has to call back to pay for it tonight they told him , he didn't have a fax at his house so he did it from work.





OK so he gets to a local pharmacy and finds out it's pretty close in price, he gives the pharmacy the script and they fill it.


He just called me and says the Canada pharm is sending his T too?


I said I don't think thats OK ?


Double dipping on a script?





I think it is either not OK or a gray area, either way I don't think they can track that anyway ?







 

Nope, nope, nope....

This is where he got the good price on the T



Is that a good price?

That was here in the US

http://www.goodrx.com/testosterone-cypionate/price





 

Oh, Good RX is good to go.

I got my HRT doc to give me a script for a bottle [and posted the story here] a while back and got Watson brand for $44 IIRC!!!!

It IS controlled and likely all your scripts are in a .gov databank.

I also got Watson for $44 at cvs.

Best thing to do is call ahead, not mentioning the coupon and see what brands in stock. Then go in and negotiate for the one you want with the coupon.

They had a no-name and my SO had me on the phone and I talked w/ them and they let slip they had Watson, and I said that's acceptable, and they sold it for $44.

My compounding pharmacy has been charging me $105 for a no-name.

I firmly believe there is grades and quality even when it comes to pharm grade test. My first ever bottle was a generic and my second was Watson. Watson got my shit to going and I could totally feel a difference.

If three different brands give you the same numbers on the blood work, say 985

Are you saying you feel a difference in how you feel with the same T levels on all three brands?



 

What I am saying was the two brands I used you could feel a difference. I didn't check my numbers so maybe it was a mental thing but it seems like the Watson was properly dosed and the generic was weaker.

I was tested 2 month ago my level came back at 194. Doctor prescribe  weekly injection 1/2ml of 200 mg/ ml. I started to feel better within just a couple weeks.
Then my problem started.
Every body said you would be chasing your wife and wouldn't be able to keep it down. I'm having trouble with the getting it up part it is taking forever.
I went back to my doctor he said it was probably stress. I had them do blood work and they called today and said every thing was good.
My testosterone was 401, hematocrit 51.1 and estradiol 40. From all my reading on this thread I think I am still low on testosterone high on the hematocrit and estradiol. Would any of these numbers be causing my problem.
It wasn't like this before I started the shots
Blood work was done on the day of my next injection

Really?  10 ml worth?  That's a steal!

Your Estradiol is heading a little high.  That can result in less firm erections.  While your T is technically "in range", it's definitely on the bottom end.  Probably a combination of low T and elevated E.

We would need reference ranges to really comment on that, but hematocrit seems to be slightly high.  Just go donate blood.

Also when was the blood tanken in relation to when you had your shot?

Blood work was done Wednesday morning my shot is Wednesday evening.  How often should I be having blood work done he seemed fine doing it every 2 or 3 month
Should I be asking for a estrogen blocker to get it down

Yes and you need to try a little at a time, start with a 1/4 mg instead of a 1 mg pill.

If you crash your E you will regret it for a few weeks, ask me how I know.

I crashed mine twice and it is no fun.

You're going to have to get blood work pulled more often to get dialed in.

I am going to get more blood work to see if I am using too little Anastrozole, my E level is 43 the day of the T shot before the T shot, that6s too high and I am using 1/4 mg E blocker once per week.  



 

I appreciate the advice. This thread really helps when you need information.
This is the second Doctor I have seen for my low T problem. He
Is better than the first one but they still seem very conservative on treatment

Yup, the regular vial w/ 10ml.

I would take a little different approach, no offense.  First do your blood work 36-48 hours after your shot.  Try going to shots twice a week and run bloodwork.  I've discovered that I can keep my E manageable by adjusting my T dosage and moving my shots to once every 4 days.  Doing this levels out the peaks and valleys.

Some respond well to E blockers and others over respond.  I responded well at first then after about a year I over responded.  Even .25mg would crash my E so low I was miserable.  Yours seems to be borderline so it might be controllable.  Also I seem to be fine with mine in the 30's others prefer the 20's.   I would also caution doing too much to fast, make one change at a time run wait about 2-3 weeks then run bloodwork.  It's not easy getting it dialed in and everyone is a little different.    

You can use privatemdlabs.com, and run their female hormone panel for about $50 (thanks swire),  if you doctor will not cooperate.  

I did go to twice per week, thats when the trouble started, I didn't have any ill feeling at all with once per week injections, just was looking for a better whatever, it wasn't broke so I should have tried to fix it.

Once I went to twice per week my T and e went up way too much.

Once I went back to weekly injections it is leveling out good now.

Balancing your E level is the hardest thing there is with this therapy



Good advice about one change at a time and going slow too.



 

No worries.  It just goes to a common theme here everyone is different.  That's why a doc that tries to use a single approach for all patients should be an indicator that doc may not be the best option.

Hey 2tired, can you pm me your PA information? I think I am going to go ahead and go with a reputable doc with good reviews.

Hell, you might just post it up for other in the dfw area in case they may want to switch.

Jrzy when are you doing your HCG in relation to your test shot?

Sure it's no big secret.  Mike Sullivan PA 6500 Sierra Drive – Suite 150 Irving, TX 75039.  972-443-5300

Where in TX are you and what is the Dr's name so I can avoid him if you are in Austin.

500 IU twice per week of HCG

1ml of Test injected on Thursday

1st 500 IU shot of HCG Saturday, second 500 IU Tuesday



 

You're good man. They are in Tyler.

Thanks man. I have got to run over to Monroe LA for a couple weeks and I plan on making an appointment with him when I get back.

Had a chat with the compounding pharmacist today.  He recommended doing your HCG one day before your Test injection as to avoid spiking your numbers.

How did Mike figure out your dosage for hcg? What test other than LH and fsh can you do to figure out if what dosage you're taking is correct?

Is that 1mL of 200mg/mL?  If so, damn that's a high dose.  Were I tempted to run a cycle of test-e (and Lord I've been tempted) I would run 1mL/week of 500 mg/mL, or 2mL of 250mg/mL as a cycle.

I hope you are working out hard to make sure all that juice is maximized!  If so, you getting solid gains?

Just curious.

Edit: my T levels have been up and down these few years, but they sure are feeling down right now so I'm considering HRT through a doctor, as I'm 39 and getting to that age.  I don't have insurance though. .

I wonder if college clinics can get me a blood work screening and script as I've recently returned to college full time.

Studies are showing it takes between 300mg-600mg per week to go into the major gains. All body builders that I have been talking to all say the ALWAYS ALWAYS start at the barest minimum because it only takes more each and every time you cycle. 300mg and nothing else is a good first cycle according to most lifters.

Yes and that is not large at all for T therapy

As a matter of fact I believe it's pretty standard ?



 

My Buddies Doctor (he has no insurance) just wrote him 1 ml of test per week , it got a coupon from Good Rx



His CVS drug store charged him even less than the stated coupon price.
Coupon price for a 10 ml bottle was $45.87, they charged him $41.25
http://www.goodrx.com/testosterone-cypionate/price





ETA:

They gave him a 10 ml bottle of Watson for $41.25





 

 

Frankly he's been playing with it and I've been doing some experimentation as well.  When I spoke with the pharmacy today I asked them to go to 250 units from 500 3 times a week and to give me a 6 week supply.  I've asked for changes to the dosage before and the pharmacy and Mike work it out.  As long as I'm not abusing it they don't give me any push back.  Interestingly the pharmacist told me the std dosage he sees is 250units 2 or 3 times a week.  

I take the HCG for 6 weeks then take 2 weeks off so a 30 day supply is a waste of money.