Dropped in to see the fun about the Heller decision.  As a lot of us predicted, we won.  It was closer than expected, but we made it.

We were also right about the NRA being a bunch of assholes.

A lot of folks here seem to be convinced that the NRA only tried to sabotage the suit because O'Connor was still in place when Heller started, and might have voted against us -- and they keep posting that Alito is some kind of reason that the NRA "changed its mind" and stopped trying to stab Levy, Heller, and Parker in the back.

Those claiming that are full of shit.

Heller/Parker was granted cert in 2007, during the current session of the Supreme Court.  NRA was still trying to derail the process in 2006 and even well into 2007 -- after the Appeals Court issued its ruling in favor of Parker (now Heller).  It wasn't until the NRA began hearing backlash against it for trying to stop the "perfect" appeal to the Supreme Court -- no side issues, no distractions, no gang-member plaintiff, just a clear and simple up-or-down on the individual-rights question -- that the NRA finally STFU'ed and let it proceed.

O'Connor stepped down from SCOTUS in 2005, and Alito was confirmed in November 2005.

So, yeah, O'Connor had a shitload of a lot to do with the NRA trying to torpedo the case in 2007.

Oh, great, NRA filed an amicus brief.  So did half the rest of the planet.

I swear, if the NRA told some of you guys that candy was coming out of LaPierre's ass, some of you would be licking it to check.

Secondly, the NRA is going to screw up royally on any immediate appeals to try to get Heller incorporated.  They are going to LOSE that battle, and we are all going to suffer as a result.  The reason is, several of the Justices who voted in our favor in Heller are also generally opposed to incorporation, Scalia in particular.  READ HIS OWN WORDS IN THE HELLER DECISION -- we don't have Scalia's vote when it comes to incorporation, and we already won't have FOUR other votes.  We are going to lose on incorporation for the foreseeable future.

A little note from rec.guns which discusses this very issue, from a conversation with Scalia quite some time ago:
ttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_thread/thread/ff818d9dd34878e1/fb704ab72ac0b1c2?lnk=st&q=#fb704ab72ac0b1c2

I had an opportunity to speak with Supreme Court Justice Scalia this morning along with a nuber of other students from my law school's Federalist Society [one of the advantages to going to school in D.C.].        Right before he finished taking questions, I managed to slip this one in.  It followed the theme of most of his speech, which was about how the American people stopped looking at the Constitution as a document that "means what it says" and have started looking at it as a document which "*should* have said such-and-such."        The question I asked was: "Given the new manner in which the American people seem to want to interpret and even ignore the U.S. Constitution, do you think the 2nd Amendment has a hope of outliving the 20th century?"        His answer could be paraphrased as follows:        1)  The Second Amendment, unlike most of the other Amendments in the Bill of Rights, will never be "extended" to the states.  [for those of you who are unaware of this, the Bill of Rights applies, on its own, *only* to the federal government.  Until the early and middle parts of this century, states didn't have to worry about cruel & unusual punishment, searches and seizures, forcing confessions, etc., unless their State constitution gave such protections.  During the Warren Era on the Court, many of these protections from the US Constitution were "extended" to the States by way of the 14th Amendment's "Due Process" Clause.  Basically, this clause lets the Supreme Court decide which parts of the Bill of Rights they really like, and force everyone to respect them, while ignoring others.]  The reason the 2nd Amendment won't be "extened" is because, in Scalia's words, "We just don't like it."  I believe he was speaking about the Court, or the U.S., as a whole.        2)  As far as Federal prohibitions against firearms, he was unsure.  He admitted that he has not had cause to examine the issue.  He commented that the "preamble" to the 2nd Amendment, the part about the militia, makes for a "valid argument" that the whole purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the states to have a militia.  PLEASE note that he didn't say he thinks that's what it means. He does, however, recognize that such an argument exists.        3)  All in all, he didn't seem very optimistic for the near-term future of the 2nd Amendment.  He made a very good point, tho:  The saddest part is not that the government might want to take away our guns.  The saddest part is that SOCIETY no longer trusts its neighbors enough to own guns to begin with.  That, Scalia said, is the road to the end of democracy.        I'd also like to note another comment the Justice made earlier on.  He commented that, whether he likes it or not, it is unmistakable that a number of "rights," such as the right to abortion, the right to privacy, and the right to raise one's children the way one wants, WHETHER IMPORTANT RIGHTS OR NOT, are *not* in the Constitution.  He said he would defend his right to raise his children "with arms, as long as I have them," but that it's still not in the Constitution.        In other words, there is a difference between what rights we have because we're human beings, and what rights we have under the Constitution.        So what does this all mean?  IMHO, it means CONGRATS on the election, because keeping our legislators away from the 2nd Amendment and its state brethren is the *only* way to keep our firearms.  No one is ever going to tell a state goverment it can't ban all weapons.  Let me say that again: The U.S. Supreme Court will *not* stop a state government from outlawing the possession of firearms.  Just look at the District of Columbia if you doubt it's true.  As for the Feds, maybe and maybe not, but DON'T COUNT ON IT.  Keep the gun-grabbers out of Congress, out of your state leigslatures, and out of power. We won a major battle this Term, and hopefully more good is to come in '96. But always Vote, because it's the only ammo you have which can save your rights. Todd Louis Green

If this gets pushed before at least one of the "gang of four" steps down and is replaced by a conservative, we're screwed.



BTW, if Tomislav would IM me with a physical mail address (or email address so I can get a snail-mail address, whatever), I owe him $10 (our Microsoft bet).  MSFT closed ten cents over our bet level the day before our bet was to be determined, and our bet day turned out to be MLK Day (so the market was closed).  Of course, the next day, MSFT made like Lewinsky, so if it hadn't been for that bastard James Earl Ray, I woulda won, but such is life!

Spend the $10 on buying a clue regarding the NRA.


<Edit. Bama>

Quoted: I swear, if the NRA told some of you guys that candy was coming out of LaPierre's ass, some of you would be licking it to check.

You are quoting portions of an interview from 1996.  Can you count ?  That's over 10 years ago.  In fact, it's not even a real interview transcript, merely a paraphrasing or summarization of an interview.  

Your post doesn't amount to jack shit.  



The fight for incorporation is a whole different ball game, one which we'll have to win on a state and local basis.  

So the guy who supposedly talked to Scalia and wrote the little note on rec.guns was wrong about every freaking thing he wrote (not optimistic about the 2nd, and thinks the preamble might be about state militias), but he's somehow pegged it as far as incorporation?

You're fucked in the head.  Keep on with your little anti-NRA tirade, but do it more quietly, okay?  The adults are trying to talk.

Name a GOA accomplishment. I've got one:

1. They write nifty emails.
2. ????

Quoted: Name a GOA accomplishment. I've got one: 1. They write nifty emails. 2. ????

They're... NOT THE NRA !!!  That is their biggest accomplishment to date.  

Quoted: Quoted: Name a GOA accomplishment. I've got one: 1. They write nifty emails. 2. ???? They're... NOT THE NRA !!!  That is their biggest accomplishment to date.

GOA isn't anything.  They are a small group of loud mouth people who don't focus on state issues and their option to get something done is to kill legislation both good and bad.  While the stance GOA takes is a good one, everything else they do hurts the gun owning community.  They are rude, loud mouthed, shout people down, demand their way, and then when things don't work out for them they walk away and say people would be better off with no pro-gun law than a good pro-gun law with a couple restrictions.  Yeah, that's an accomplishment to be proud of.


As for Heller, the NRA had it's own court case.  The NRA also had 4 different ways they could win their court case without screwing over the gun owners if they failed.  Heller had one way to win the case and if they lost you would see gun control come flying out at the federal, state, and local levels.  The Heller case was a reckless way of doing things because it was all or nothing.  The NRA isn't reckless, they take their time and make sure they can win something no matter what.  That is why they are respected in Washington and always in the top 5 most powerful lobbies in the US.  Now that is an accomplishment.

+1.  The NRA had NOTHING to do with winning Heller.  Now they are trying to suck in money on it.

I proudly renewed my NRA membership for another 2 years today.  

Did I write anything about GOA?

Anything??

So why are you bringing THEM up, Subnet??

As far as incorporation, read Scalia's Heller opinion.  It's very clear to me that he's not in favor.

Given Breyer's comments, do you think he'd EVER vote in favor of incorporation?  How about Stevens?

Guys, do the fucking math.  Four who don't like the 2A.  One who clearly is not in favor of incorporation.  Four others whose opinions I'm not even guessing, because they won't matter -- it's already at least a 5-4 loser.

Enjoy Heller while you can.  NRA will be making a mint on donations to fight lawsuits that will end up destroying us.  I'm sure LaPierre will be laughing all the way to the bank.

And Tomislav, nice to see you were the first post.  Ok, I'll send the $10 to Levy.  Hope your MSFT stock is doing as well as my GLD.  Oh, wait . . . it's not.

Quoted: Name a GOA accomplishment. I've got one: 1. They write nifty emails. 2. ???? 3. Profit!

Fixed it?

Chances are, by the time another gun case comes before the Supreme Court, the composition of the court will be different.  It takes a few years.

you do realize incorporation can be handled by the lower courts right, they are going after it in San Fran and Chicago. The 2nd ammendment will most likely not be touched by the SC again in our lifetimes.

Quoted: +1.  The NRA had NOTHING to do with winning Heller.  Now they are trying to suck in money on it.

So the NRA had nothing to do with the confirmation of the conservative judges that now sit on the court?

 Candy?  Did someone say candy?

The original post is dangerously misleading and outdated.  We just WON in D.C., and Scalia's footnote 23 is hinting strongly that just as the 1st amendment was once denied incorporation and later deservedly received it, the 2nd Amendment is ripe for the same attention.

No argument on the fecklessness of the NRA, though.  Glad to see them willing to file lawsuits in the wake of Heller, but  just hope their cases are well-prepared.

Quoted: As far as incorporation, read Scalia's Heller opinion.  It's very clear to me that he's not in favor.

What do you see, specifically, in Scalia's opinion that indicates he's so opposed to incorporation?

wow.



Some people are not happy unless they can convince themselves that the sky is falling.  

I signed up for a year today  and recruited two new members as well!

The NRA is currently filing lawsuits across the U.S. in order to quickly void laws affected
by today's ruling.

They need our help. Lawyers cost money.

Hell, you get a magazine subscription, benefits, discounts, insurance, etcetera, to boot.

Do it today.

SURGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quoted: Quoted: +1.  The NRA had NOTHING to do with winning Heller.  Now they are trying to suck in money on it. So the NRA had nothing to do with the confirmation of the conservative judges that now sit on the court?

Nope.  The Republican party did.

Quoted: I signed up for a year today  and recruited two new members as well! The NRA is currently filing lawsuits across the U.S. in order to quickly void laws affected by today's ruling. They need our help. Lawyers cost money. Hell, you get a magazine subscription, benefits, discounts, insurance, etcetera, to boot. Do it today. SURGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've already said I'll join WHEN I see the suits and they make it to the first appeals.  I'm not aware of a single case filed right now.   Don't tell me they didn't have time.  The ISRA and the SAF filed against Chicago this morning.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: As far as incorporation, read Scalia's Heller opinion.  It's very clear to me that he's not in favor. What do you see, specifically, in Scalia's opinion that indicates he's so opposed to incorporation? yeah I'd be interested in hearing this as well.  No attorney I've spoken to has read it that way.

footnote 23

Guys....Give to the NRA all you want, but I just don't think you are getting your money's worth. We owe the Heller decision to the Bush administration. The President stacked the deck in our favor. All the Bush detractors can now kiss my ass! I, being a Voter, am my own lobby. My voice will be heard as long as I have freedom. If you NRA lovers out there let someone else keep doing your fighting for you you will lose you freedom, and that's no shit!

Do any of you actually think the NRA will come within miles of touching a MG case of any kind?

As far as incorporation, read Scalia's Heller opinion. It's very clear to me that he's not in favor.

Reading comprehension was never your strong point, huh?

This thread really IS funny. I love it when folks discover critical thinking late in life...they always question PRECISELY the wrong thing.

The NRA is to gun owners what Jesse Jackson is to black people.


They have the same problem the government has.
The local guys are good ok but on a national leavel they will take your money with one hand a slap you with the other.

Quoted: Quoted: +1.  The NRA had NOTHING to do with winning Heller.  Now they are trying to suck in money on it. So the NRA had nothing to do with the confirmation of the conservative judges that now sit on the court?

How in the hell do you think the NRA had anything to do with the Supreme Court confirmations? That is an action that had to come from both sides of the House and Senate. If the NRA had anything to do with anything it would have been totally with one party not both. The NRA is a big lobby, but I think you are reaching here.

I don't like Wayne LaPierre nor do I like most of the people who run the NRA, I am a life member and have been one for over 10 years. I have not sent them a dime in almost seven years.

Having said that the NRA has moved on issue regarding gun confiscations during Katrina and now they are filing lawsuits against Chicago,SF, and others. I will be sending them money for these lawsuits as well as other Second Amendment groups (yes there are more groups than the NRA and GOA.)

If you have such a mad on for the NRA don't join, there are other firearms organization that are have filed Amicus brief in the Heller case and initiated lawsuits now that the decision have come down. They would welcome your money and support. Find one and join. Otherwise put a cork in it.

Quoted: I signed up for a year today  and recruited two new members as well! The NRA is currently filing lawsuits across the U.S. in order to quickly void laws affected by today's ruling. They need our help. Lawyers cost money. Hell, you get a magazine subscription, benefits, discounts, insurance, etcetera, to boot. Do it today. SURGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good work and thanks for supporting gun ownership rights.  I'll never understand these folks who make a purposeful effort to divide us.  

Quoted: Do any of you actually think the NRA will come within miles of touching a MG case of any kind?

not with only 4 million picking up the fight for 60 million slackers. Thats  why I renew and I also buy 5 other individual memberships for friends and family every year.

I don't mind though, I know most gun owners are no better than a  welfare leech who expect others to work for them.

Proud Life member of the NRA and member of the GOA - OP has issues

Quoted: Quoted: Do any of you actually think the NRA will come within miles of touching a MG case of any kind? not with only 4 million picking up the fight for 60 million slackers.

If the NRA wants more members, it needs to act like it by courting us.  Instead of pretending to be Jesse Jackson.  "You're BlackGun Owners!  You must support us!"

Quoted: Quoted: you do realize incorporation can be handled by the lower courts right, they are going after it in San Fran and Chicago. The 2nd ammendment will most likely not be touched by the SC again in our lifetimes.  Yep...I tend to agree.  Maybe once every 70 yrs or more.  This decision is the modern 2A which lawsuits will be won or lose.  As far as the NRA is concerned, I still support NRA and other pro-gun groups.  Don't really give a sh!t any conspiracy theories you guys are throwing at.

No conspiracy theories.   The truth.  The NRA did not support Heller and tried to make it go away.

Quoted: What's after Endowment member?  TI, they offering any upgrade specials?

Patron, then Benefactor....not sure if any upgrade deals are going on at the moment.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: you do realize incorporation can be handled by the lower courts right, they are going after it in San Fran and Chicago. The 2nd ammendment will most likely not be touched by the SC again in our lifetimes.  Yep...I tend to agree.  Maybe once every 70 yrs or more.  This decision is the modern 2A which lawsuits will be won or lose.  As far as the NRA is concerned, I still support NRA and other pro-gun groups.  Don't really give a sh!t any conspiracy theories you guys are throwing at. No conspiracy theories.   The truth.  The NRA did not support Heller and tried to make it go away.

NRA isn't perfect and shouldn't be expected to. I don't get why non members bitch about them more than the Democrats. If you arent a member, why bitch? Really. Its not your fight right?

They do get stuff done regardless. I look at what they have done and can do, not their mistakes. Some have the foresight and patience to see our fight is a long and calculated one.

We are our worst enemies some times.  What a worthless thread.

Quoted: I'm stoned out of my mind!

We know.  It's obvious.

For what its worth - 12 years "Anti-NRA" here - joined (again) today.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: you do realize incorporation can be handled by the lower courts right, they are going after it in San Fran and Chicago. The 2nd ammendment will most likely not be touched by the SC again in our lifetimes.  Yep...I tend to agree.  Maybe once every 70 yrs or more.  This decision is the modern 2A which lawsuits will be won or lose.  As far as the NRA is concerned, I still support NRA and other pro-gun groups.  Don't really give a sh!t any conspiracy theories you guys are throwing at. No conspiracy theories.   The truth.  The NRA did not support Heller and tried to make it go away. NRA isn't perfect and shouldn't be expected to. I don't get why non members bitch about them more than the Democrats. They do get stuff done regardless. I look at what they have done and can do, not their mistakes. Some have the foresight and patience to see our fight is a long and calculated one.

And when they have done nothing they claim credit and have dozen threads telling us to donate to them.

it's simple.  Anyone telling us to buy an NRA membership due to Heller is telling us to donate to the organization that tried to kill Heller.

Why should we reward them for doing the opposite?   When the NRA starts playing offense in the gun war, I'll consider joining them again.  

Quoted: And when they have done nothing they claim credit and have dozen threads telling us to donate to them. it's simple.  Anyone telling us to buy an NRA membership due to Heller is telling us to donate to the organization that tried to kill Heller. Why should we reward them for doing the opposite?   When the NRA starts playing offense in the gun war, I'll consider joining them again.

I say become a member because of Heller. Not that NRA caused the outcome. No one is saying that. I say join because of  Heller. It opens up much on our battlefront. The NRA already fired the shots and is already on the move.

Yes because of Heller. I don't care if friggin Donald Duck was the reason it passed. the opportunity is there, the NRA will use and is using it. Thats all that matters to me.

If you think the NRA previous reason to block Heller was because of nefarious reasons as if they actually wanted gun control, then I say its time to loosen the foil.

I never thought I'd say this, but....





QUICK!  GRAB YOUR TIN-FOIL HATS!

Quoted: We are our worst enemies some times.  What a worthless thread.

We are not enemies. We just have a difference in opinion. Americans can do that. I hate to do this, but your sig line kind of says it all.......

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it. Thomas Paine"

Quoted: it's simple.  Anyone telling us to buy an NRA membership due to Heller is telling us to donate to the organization that tried to kill Heller. Why should we reward them for doing the opposite?   When the NRA starts playing offense in the gun war, I'll consider joining them again.

The NRA did not support Heller back when there were different judges seated.  And they were right to maintain that position.  We would have lost the case.  When the court's make up changed, they changed course and supported it.

What you're spouting is a load of bullshit propaganda.

Quoted: wow. Some people are not happy unless they can convince themselves that the sky is falling.

Well stated so as to avoid the ban.  

I'll +1 it.

Quoted: This is too fine of a day to let a troll spoil it.